Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"

if u feel "something" while listening to rap that's it, that's all matters.

Right on Ray!!

@simao + 1

@rockysantoro you mean like all the hard rock lyrics that celebrate drugs, misogyny, and hedonism? I assume you don't listen to them either. Dude, stay out of the conversation until you know the subject. 

Nobody has mentioned the ''explicit'' lyrics. They promote drugs,weapons,and violence against women. Not for me.

“transparency” (Cambridge Dictionary):

*** The  characteristic of being easy to see through ***

https://youtu.be/4KW6Y5icmyE

@larsman I think that is fair and you make valid points.  
I shouldn’t have said someone who doesn’t like Ray Charles is “either a non-human or woefully ignorant.”  
My apologies.

I like Ray for sure, even though I don't have any of his records, but I don't think there is any musical artist, no matter how brilliant or well-regarded, who will be enjoyed by 100% of all music fans. If somebody doesn't like something, you can't deny that subjective experience. You may feel sorry for them that Ray's music doesn't do anything for them, but I don't think anybody needs to be insulted for having a different reaction to the same stimulus.  

@frogman The statement, “(I’ve) yet to enjoy anything by Ray Charles” constitutes that of a non-human or a woefully ignorant person.
If even the most popular of Ray Charles music does nothing to you, I don’t know what to say.
This person is either not a human or dreadfully ignorant.

You can’t be serious! “yet to enjoy”?

Anyway, as far as I’m concerned the opinion of anyone who can sing like this, so connected to the music, deserves to have his opinions on music at least considered.

https://youtu.be/Dr-McSXdFEQ

Not a huge fan of rap to be sure.

But I've enjoyed plenty of rap songs and have yet to enjoy anything by Ray Charles.

@bdp24 Well, that went well, huh? 🤣 It appears introducing a topic that may inspire a more expansive discussion than just audio nerdery is something Audiogon can’t handle. Sad, to me. That thread had potential to be fruitful and stimulating but a lot of ugliness leading to outright removal ensued. Again, sad.
I obviously have my views on the subject but enjoy such discussions and value and appreciate that you introduced the topic for discussion.

I indeed watched the video yesterday and rewatched several chunks of it.
I think the section from 8:24 to 11:14 is fantastic (what Indian music is and how it - along with any and every form of music on Earth - not only should be taught, but omitting such constitutes an inadequate curriculum)

However, I still feel overall that the statements Ewell makes are dubious in efficacy towards actually achieving what he advocates. I don’t think his self-serving, grandstanding, sweeping and incendiary generalizations are effective in persuading Western academia to adopt more comprehensive curriculums.
Now he’s famous for being the guy who says, “music theory is white supremacy.” Good for him. Whoopee.
I think something far more effective would have been, “Western academia offers inadequate music education when it omits non-Western music from its curriculum.”
Same idea, just far more effective, far less problematic presentation.
We would see educators merely start to incorporate ALL music into their curriculum (what Ewell advocates and what I strongly endorse) without all the incendiary, self-serving grandstanding.

"I’m the seventh out of seven sons

My pappy was a pistol I’m a son of a gun."

"I’m just average, common too.

Just like him, the same as you.

I’m everybody’s brother and son

I ain’t no different than anyone.

Ain’t no use talkin’ to me

It’s just the same as talkin’ to you!"

All of these taken from memory. Forgive any missteps.

Wouldn’t ya just know it: I misspelled Adam’s name. ;-)

At any rate, here’s the video. You may have to back it up to it's beginning.

https://youtu.be/Kr3quGh7pJA

@bdp24 No, I didn’t watch the video.
I said my opinion on the subject.
That’s cool that people are talking about this stuff.
Obviously I’m happy to chime in.
My opinions were merely my own. For all I know, the person in the video you suggested is brilliant and says things that make me go, “hooray!”
My post was merely my opinion on the topic and not a reaction to the video you suggested.

@tylermunns obviously couldn’t be bothered to watch the video. If he had he would know that the argument is NOT being made against what he obviously thinks it is.

Examined and discussed in the video is not just how race is involved, but also gender, culture, nationality, and several other factors.

@simao I disagree. What is “pleasing” and “acceptable” is personal preference.  
The arrangement of notes indigenous to other parts of the world may very well be more pleasing to some than that which is predominant in Western-World-based arrangements of notes.  
Of course, for a lot of reasons, Western-World-based views of music have dominated the globe for centuries. That is not necessarily a good thing, but it is a fact nonetheless.  
Especially today, with current technology readily available to such a huge swath of the planet, one can easily access a huge chunk of the cumulative output of Planet Earth’s music. From every neck of the woods.
If one chooses to ignore non-Western music, that is their choice. In my opinion, their loss.  But non-Western music is right there under everyone’s nose at virtually every second of every day.

We can talk about white supremacy, but I see no constructive outcome from saying, “music theory is white supremacy.” 
Even if such an idea was proven to be somehow “truth,” what would we do then? Cease all current teachings of music theory until some U.N.-esque elected body convened to rewrite “musical theory” henceforth? What would that entail? How ultimately constructive would such a thing be?

However, I can kind of see where he's coming from. Yes, there are only 12 notes in the scale, but how we envision those 12 notes and what we find to be pleasing to the ear and acceptable as a paradigm it's completely based on our Western upbringing. The same can be said for the pentatonic scale if you look into Asian music.

@bdp24 These notions that “white supremacy” and music theory are somehow intrinsically linked are so utterly preposterous as to demand any fair-minded person with a modicum of intelligence heartily laugh them out of the room.
We hear a lot of nonsense these days.
We hear people say that expecting someone to be on time for a scheduled engagement is “white supremacy.”

There are 12 damn notes.
“Here’s a basic ordering of those 12 notes that we have.”
That’s all “music theory” is.
Are math, science and writing, “white supremacist?”

This stuff is beyond silly.

Here’s something tangentially related:

There is a YouTube video (made and posted by Adan Neely, a very knowledgeable, intelligent, and articulate young man) entitled "Music Theory And White Supremacy", in which an interesting topic is explored: the conflating of the concepts of "music theory" (as it is taught) and "the harmonic style of 18th century European musicians", and how "race" is related to that conflating.

The video was posted two years ago, and has been viewed 2.3 million times! It’s 44 minutes long, and believe me is VERY worthy of your time. I’m going to watch it again right now.

Rap music crossed over to white audiences in the mid to late 80s.  I'm thinking about the Beastie Boys, Aerosmith/Run DMC and Yo! MTV Raps.  At that point young white males were the biggest consumers of rap.  In many ways rap music has morphed and evolved well beyond its origins in the streets and clubs of the Bronx and Brooklyn to the point where its originating blackness is irrelevant.  The Indian sub continent has a decades old history of rap music that is unique to Indian/Pakistan.  The music was originally inspired by what came out of America, but its cultural significance is vastly different.

@tylermunns, not this black person. My first instrument was Cello, then bass, then sax, then piano, and now archtop guitar. I get it, not everyone can fit into a box. But in general, this thread is evidence of the fact that white people can’t be expected to get rap. Otherwise, this entire thread wouldn’t exist.

@coltrane1 For someone who says, “what do I know, I’m a jazz nut,” you sure are quick to speak with a strong sense of authority on lots of things un-jazz.  
I hope you could understand how silly a sentence like, “you simply cannot expect a bunch of white people to understand rap” is.  
Rap is not some alien language. It’s music.  
Obviously the historical context of both peoples’ position in the world is far, far different, and white people are the perpetrators of egregious injustice and people of color have been their victims for centuries.  
We’re talking about art here.  
Art is a human language.  
Just as saying, “white people are less inclined to really ‘get’ rap music than black people” may have a hint of truth but is still overall a dumb statement, so would be saying, “black people are less inclined to really ‘get’ classical music or country music.”

You simply cannot expect a bunch of white people to understand rap, which grew out of backlash against racism. Remember the Reagan administration? Or when the CIA knowingly introduced crack into Los Angeles? Those were the times rap was addressing. I wasn’t into Tupac, but even I understood what he spoke of. These were sad times, and the youth today understand the struggle the country faces. Ray Charles was from a generation when being black was a huge handicap. But what do I know I’m a jazz nut.

I love reading stories about rap not being music and if Ray says it's not music why can't we all agree that it isn't music!  How dare one calls it art! Don't ever again let me hear any of it, it should be outlawed! 

@coltrane1 You must have incredible upper body strength from digging these deeper-and-deeper holes for yourself.  
Berry Gordy Jr. sold the Motown company for 61 million in ‘88.  
He sold 50% of the publishing rights to the catalog for 132 million in ‘97, 30% for 110 Million in ‘03, and the remaining 20% for 80 million in ‘04.  
These are extremely valuable songs.  
Even your citation of those sales stats clearly shows one very predictable name: Michael Jackson. He’s #6 on the list.
How one could cite these stats and then say, “not one black recording among them”??
Not one logical argument have you yet made as to how any of this makes a person’s opinion on rap invalid or illegitimate, or how it’s fair to tromp on in here and say, “I doubt many here still listen to ‘soul from the ‘60s and ‘70s.”
 

How do we know? Because the entire Motown Music catalog sold for a paltry $61M.

Philly Soul sold to Sony Music in 2014, no price available.

But check this out. The top selling recordings all time are music created by whites. Not one black recording among them.

Perhaps black music was “popular”, but only via the radio? The facts don’t lie. Whites did not purchase Black music in large quantities.

No matter how popular it was, it didn’t actually sell in huge numbers. Blacks bought black music, but their purchase numbers could only reflect the numbers of their small population. Facts.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/271174/top-selling-artists-in-the-united-states/#:~:text=Perhaps%20unsurprisingly%2C%20British%20rock%20band,Presley%20with%20139%20million%20units.

@coltrane1 This discussion is on rap music.  
For some reason, you brought up “Motown and Philly soul.”  
Then, for some reason, you brought race into it (again).  
You, for some reason, said, with zero data and facts to back it up, that “very few white people” bought those records.  
I can hardly see your logic in tracing all this back to Ray Charles, let alone rap music.  
If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying, 
“because white people didn’t listen to Ray Charles, Motown and Philly soul in the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s, they are hypocrites to cite Ray Charles’ opinion on rap as evidence that ‘rap is not music.’”  

This is an avalanche of illogic.

As envisioned by its founder, Berry Gordy, the whole point of the Motown Sound was to have black artist crossover to white record buying consumers.  He succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

'Back in the day', soul music was probably the most popular music outside of the Beatles and such, and before the Beatles, soul music totally dominated the pop charts.

Rap/hip-hop is hugely popular among all kinds of people, largely in their teens and 20's, but certainly expanding beyond that.

Anybody who thinks 'whites' are not into soul and hip-hop this obviously knows not of what they speak. 

@tylermunns Easy. What percentage of Whites bought those records? A very few, otherwise Motown and Philly would have sold many many more records. Rock ruled the day. Some of that was great. Some not so. Nothing to do with rap. But why agree with Ray Charles when most weren’t buying his records either. That’s hypocrisy. Calling a spade a spade. Now call me racist for calling out the obvious.

@coltrane1 What does that music have to do with rap?  
Why would you assume you’re “one the few people” to listen to some of the most popular music of the last 60 years?

I've been listening to Wilson Pickett, Sam Cooke, Ruth Brown, LaVerne Baker, Etta James, Aretha, Solomon Burke, Marvin Gaye, The Platters (who are arguably more Pop than Soul), The Four Tops, The Drifters ("On Broadway"---written by Barry Mann & Cynthia Weil---is as good as songwriting, singing, and production gets), The Shirelles, Stevie Wonder, Lloyd Price, The Temptations, Smokey Robinson & The Miracles, Hank Ballard & The Midnighters, Jackie Wilson (his "Baby Workout" is KILLER!), Percy Sledge, Clyde McPhatter (I bought his "Lover Please" when it was released on a 45 in 1962), James Carr (everyone has covered his "The Dark End Of The Street", including Ry Cooder), Otis Redding, Booker T & The MG's (one of my very favorite bands), Sam & Dave, Jr. Walker & The All-Stars, Martha & The Vandellas, Ruby & The Romantics (their "Our Day Will Come" is SO dreamy), and a few dozen others since the 60's. Oh yeah, and Ray Charles. Many, many white guys have spent their entire lives trying to sound as much like Ray as possible.

I've played the above music in numerous bands, but when the bassist of the somewhat-hippie-esque band I had just joined in 1971 looked through my record collection his response was "You like weird music". He didn't yet know that James Jamerson---a genius musician---played bass on many of them. I'll bet he does now. 

Perhaps. But what percentage of people actually listened to SOUL music back in the days of Motown and Philadelphia Soul back in the day? A very small percentage I’d imagine. So why hide behind Ray Charles words when you didn’t listen to soul when you had the chance?

I still listen to soul from the 60’s and 70’s. I doubt many here do. 

@taisoul Well said.

Rap is officially a 50 year old genre of music. There is bad rap and amazing rap. There is bad rock and amazing rock. This is dumb. 

@tylermunns, I hear you and love your list! That's some history you're putting out there....

@northman Gotcha. Don’t know that LP.  
But, yeah, no, he’s nowhere near the first rapper.

@tylermunns, I'm not joking about Lou Reed at all, but he probably was. He did a song called "The Original Wrapper" (sic) on his 1986 album Mistrial. I love Lou but that album wasn't his finest hour.

@northman “Of course Lou Reed was the original wrapper ….”
Not sure if you’re joking.

1926: “Talking Blues” - Chris Bouchillon
1926: “Can’t You Wait Till You Get Home” - Frankie Jaxon
1929: “Atlanta Strut” - Blind Willie McTell (still one of the great ‘rap’ lines, ‘she look-a like a lump of laaaaawd-have-mercy’)
1929: “Automobile Ride Through Alabama” - Red Henderson
1931: “Frankie Jean” Memphis Minnie
To name a few from the ‘20s and ‘30s.

Of course there are a ton of rap-y songs by blues, gospel, and country artists in the ‘30s and ‘40s, there’s the majority of Woody Guthrie’s oeuvre, there’s “Who Do You Love” by Bo Diddley in ‘55, and a bunch of early-‘60s Bob Dylan songs, right up until ‘65’s “Subterranean Homesick Blues.”
 

Just out of curiosity I´d like to hear the OP´s or @stager´s take on Norwegian Black Metal. Their takes will be refreshing for sure.

Of course Lou Reed was the original wrapper ....

The Clash were one of the first rock groups to crossover into rap for they predate Blondie by 6 months.  "The Magnificent Seven" was a hit on Black radio in NYC, particularly the "Dirty Harry" remix.  That was back in the day when you artists didn't get releases for original source material.

@itsjustme 

I'm surprised at Ray' comment. I wonder what the context was.

Well, for starters, Mr. Charles passed away almost 20 years ago. Mr. Charles was also a product of his generation....big band, blues, covers. Rap/Hip hop was different back then...heck, alot of musicians who cut their teeth during the Count Basie/Duke Ellington songbook had a problem with the Woodstock/summer of love genre...until it came time to get paid. Then, get out of the way because the covers are coming! Anyone ever see the SInatra special where he was singing along with the Fifth Dimension??? OMG...every generation has a problem with the next generation....until they don't.

Luckily those who are horrified by new ideas and change in general don't get to decide do they? They are typically older, set in their ways, light complected and the beautiful thing about time and actuarial realities, it will take care of itself while the complainers are yelling at people to get off their lawn. I had a younger co-worker ask me the other day if I had ever heard of the Clash...absolutely loved it....it was a great day and there is hope for tomorrow!

Vive la difference

And I am not beholden to the "Gospel according to Jerry' but I respected him and was curious enough to listen to what he said.

Another musician I respected said kiddingly (kind of) all the rest of that other music is a bunch of "Zip-a-dee-doo-dah"

Any guesses as to who that was? lol

@rpppr Not particularly. As much as I loved the Dead, I'm not beholden to what Jerry feels about a genre he plainly doesn't understand. Musicians as gifted as he have said the exact opposite. 

I would never choose to listen to Rap when I have something I enjoy listening to nearby.  I think that is fair and don't need to comment further.  I envision my parent's listening to my music and cringing.  

simao - I cannot say I strongly disagree with what you posted and you stated you are a Deadhead (as am I)

I heard Garcia interviewed and he flatly said Rap is not music - it has a meter - but it is not music.  I thought you would find that interesting.

OTOH Paul McCartney gave a really eloquent explanation of how musci can be modulated in frequency (melody) or time (beat) - and how Rap modulates time - not unlike many classical examples.  he drew a lot of parallels to timing changes in classical.

Now, much popular music post WW2 is really poetry.  So, you need to look at it thru those two lenses. I'm surprised at Ray' comment. I wonder what the context was.

G

This again?

Criticizing other's esthetic preferences is not likely to result in a change in said preferences.

And trying to justify one's subjective taste with objective arguments only adds fuel to the fire. 

What a waste of energy...