Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"

Miles and miles of ignorance here.  
Jeez Louise.  
So one guy (The great Ray Charles) said something, so, there ya go.  
Glomming on to something one guy said as though the Gospel was written.  
There seems to be a lot of that on this forum.  

Define, “music.”

I’ll happily let the Masters of Music here deign to provide us ignoramuses with the Definition Of Music.

It’s not up for debate. Whether one likes it is their business, but asserting it’s “not even music” vaporizes one’s credibility.  
If someone has actually listened to rap at all over the past 40-odd years, they would note that rap has,
1) these things called “chords.”  
“Chords,” by definition, is harmony.  
2) the songs have this thing called, “melody.”  
That would be the part of the song where a defined, composed, repeated sequence of tones/notes occurs.  
3) vocal melodies defining those integral parts of pop songs called, “choruses.”
4) counter melodies supplied by supplementary (background) vocal arrangements and/or instrumental arrangements.  
5) percussion arrangements.  
6) songs composed and structured with intros, verses, choruses, bridges, outros, etc. etc.

Last time I checked, aural phenomena that contains all of the above, simultaneously (and even only a few of the above, in concert) is what people call, “music.”
 
 

@pedroeb “Who ever thought (rap) was music?”

Oy vey.

I’m all ears for your definition of “music.”  
If it ain’t music, what the hell is it?  

@pedroeb what do you mean by, “ (rap) is not ‘musical’ “??  
Do you mean you just don’t enjoy it?

@davedead “I certainly find it difficult to imagine that Jerry had an intellectual blindness to any genre of music”

The great thing is you don’t have to “imagine” anything.  
You just posted a video wherein he explicitly demonstrates his intellectual blindness

@shutupuface I can’t tell if your intention in quoting the definition of “music” was to refute someone saying rap is “music,” or to refute those who say it is not “music.”  
If it was the latter, bravo.  
If it was the former, then something quite embarrassing was just committed.

It’s amazing to me that anyone would outright dismiss the existence of something they merely don’t like. There are a million things I don’t like, but I can’t just say that Easy Cheese is “not food” just because I find it repulsive. It’s not a matter of debate. It is “food.” Of course it’s “food.”  
I agree with Scorsese that franchise/comic book movies suck. I wouldn’t say they “aren’t cinema.” Of course they’re technically “cinema.” They just really, really suck.

Are people willing to be consistent in their definition of “music?”

Is, say, Bo Diddley’s 1956 song “Who Do You Love,” a song where 100% of its verses are “rapping,” 100% of it is one chord, and aside from one beat of one measure in the chorus (the little fill after ‘whooo do you love…’) the percussion remains static/unchanged through the song, “music?” 

The criteria cited in deeming rap “not music” would then cause an enormous swath of our musical history to be deemed “not music” as well.

@ab2ab What is this “impact on society” you speak of? How can some music “impact society,” and what does such “impact” entail?

“…rap is a particularly focused medium for social degeneracy…by design.”

Honestly, where does one come up with this stuff? “By design?” What??

”…medium for social degeneracy.” So much vagueness and empty rhetoric.

I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say, but I do know what it sounds very similar to: the laughably narrow minded comments on rock and roll made by people  in the 1950s.  
You know, those comically reactionary, silly comments we saw people making about rock n roll in the 1950s  
You know, those things we laugh at.

@ab2ab You've got a lot of problems. 

Ad hominem attacks, assuming I "have no real exposure to rap music," saying you 'know' I've never heard drill or trap...  

Why would you say that? Terrible default position of assuming to know what other people's lives are like. 

Your argument is just dreadful.

You provided zero actual evidence as to know some damn music "negatively impacts society." Probably because it's a silly idea to begin with, and it's virtually impossible to prove because it's untrue.  

@stager 

ad ho·​mi·​nem (ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem. -nəm. : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect. an ad hominem argument. : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

- “Bet you never even heard of Tatum or Bird.” 
- “(posts a link to artists who had committed murder)”
- “Nitwit.”

- An ad hominem attack on this user’s level of musical knowledge (saying they probably don’t know about Tatum or Parker) with no evidence to base this ad hominem attack on, doing absolutely nothing to disprove any of this person’s claims with actual facts or actual intellectual argument-making, doing nothing to actually address the subject
- an ad hominem attack on the character of rap artists, conflating criminal behavior of a small sample size of the totality of such artists with musical legitimacy, as though those two things are related, and,
-  in the same sentence in which you accuse someone of an ad hominem attack, your rebuttal is simply insulting his intelligence by calling him, “Nitwit.”

If avoiding flagrant, egregious hypocrisy is at all a concern for you, it is best to avoid accusing someone of something you literally just did in a big, big way.  
Just something to consider.
 

@northman “Of course Lou Reed was the original wrapper ….”
Not sure if you’re joking.

1926: “Talking Blues” - Chris Bouchillon
1926: “Can’t You Wait Till You Get Home” - Frankie Jaxon
1929: “Atlanta Strut” - Blind Willie McTell (still one of the great ‘rap’ lines, ‘she look-a like a lump of laaaaawd-have-mercy’)
1929: “Automobile Ride Through Alabama” - Red Henderson
1931: “Frankie Jean” Memphis Minnie
To name a few from the ‘20s and ‘30s.

Of course there are a ton of rap-y songs by blues, gospel, and country artists in the ‘30s and ‘40s, there’s the majority of Woody Guthrie’s oeuvre, there’s “Who Do You Love” by Bo Diddley in ‘55, and a bunch of early-‘60s Bob Dylan songs, right up until ‘65’s “Subterranean Homesick Blues.”
 

@northman Gotcha. Don’t know that LP.  
But, yeah, no, he’s nowhere near the first rapper.

@taisoul Well said.

@coltrane1 What does that music have to do with rap?  
Why would you assume you’re “one the few people” to listen to some of the most popular music of the last 60 years?

@coltrane1 This discussion is on rap music.  
For some reason, you brought up “Motown and Philly soul.”  
Then, for some reason, you brought race into it (again).  
You, for some reason, said, with zero data and facts to back it up, that “very few white people” bought those records.  
I can hardly see your logic in tracing all this back to Ray Charles, let alone rap music.  
If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying, 
“because white people didn’t listen to Ray Charles, Motown and Philly soul in the ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s, they are hypocrites to cite Ray Charles’ opinion on rap as evidence that ‘rap is not music.’”  

This is an avalanche of illogic.

@coltrane1 You must have incredible upper body strength from digging these deeper-and-deeper holes for yourself.  
Berry Gordy Jr. sold the Motown company for 61 million in ‘88.  
He sold 50% of the publishing rights to the catalog for 132 million in ‘97, 30% for 110 Million in ‘03, and the remaining 20% for 80 million in ‘04.  
These are extremely valuable songs.  
Even your citation of those sales stats clearly shows one very predictable name: Michael Jackson. He’s #6 on the list.
How one could cite these stats and then say, “not one black recording among them”??
Not one logical argument have you yet made as to how any of this makes a person’s opinion on rap invalid or illegitimate, or how it’s fair to tromp on in here and say, “I doubt many here still listen to ‘soul from the ‘60s and ‘70s.”
 

@coltrane1 For someone who says, “what do I know, I’m a jazz nut,” you sure are quick to speak with a strong sense of authority on lots of things un-jazz.  
I hope you could understand how silly a sentence like, “you simply cannot expect a bunch of white people to understand rap” is.  
Rap is not some alien language. It’s music.  
Obviously the historical context of both peoples’ position in the world is far, far different, and white people are the perpetrators of egregious injustice and people of color have been their victims for centuries.  
We’re talking about art here.  
Art is a human language.  
Just as saying, “white people are less inclined to really ‘get’ rap music than black people” may have a hint of truth but is still overall a dumb statement, so would be saying, “black people are less inclined to really ‘get’ classical music or country music.”

@bdp24 These notions that “white supremacy” and music theory are somehow intrinsically linked are so utterly preposterous as to demand any fair-minded person with a modicum of intelligence heartily laugh them out of the room.
We hear a lot of nonsense these days.
We hear people say that expecting someone to be on time for a scheduled engagement is “white supremacy.”

There are 12 damn notes.
“Here’s a basic ordering of those 12 notes that we have.”
That’s all “music theory” is.
Are math, science and writing, “white supremacist?”

This stuff is beyond silly.

@simao I disagree. What is “pleasing” and “acceptable” is personal preference.  
The arrangement of notes indigenous to other parts of the world may very well be more pleasing to some than that which is predominant in Western-World-based arrangements of notes.  
Of course, for a lot of reasons, Western-World-based views of music have dominated the globe for centuries. That is not necessarily a good thing, but it is a fact nonetheless.  
Especially today, with current technology readily available to such a huge swath of the planet, one can easily access a huge chunk of the cumulative output of Planet Earth’s music. From every neck of the woods.
If one chooses to ignore non-Western music, that is their choice. In my opinion, their loss.  But non-Western music is right there under everyone’s nose at virtually every second of every day.

We can talk about white supremacy, but I see no constructive outcome from saying, “music theory is white supremacy.” 
Even if such an idea was proven to be somehow “truth,” what would we do then? Cease all current teachings of music theory until some U.N.-esque elected body convened to rewrite “musical theory” henceforth? What would that entail? How ultimately constructive would such a thing be?

@bdp24 No, I didn’t watch the video.
I said my opinion on the subject.
That’s cool that people are talking about this stuff.
Obviously I’m happy to chime in.
My opinions were merely my own. For all I know, the person in the video you suggested is brilliant and says things that make me go, “hooray!”
My post was merely my opinion on the topic and not a reaction to the video you suggested.

@bdp24 Well, that went well, huh? 🤣 It appears introducing a topic that may inspire a more expansive discussion than just audio nerdery is something Audiogon can’t handle. Sad, to me. That thread had potential to be fruitful and stimulating but a lot of ugliness leading to outright removal ensued. Again, sad.
I obviously have my views on the subject but enjoy such discussions and value and appreciate that you introduced the topic for discussion.

I indeed watched the video yesterday and rewatched several chunks of it.
I think the section from 8:24 to 11:14 is fantastic (what Indian music is and how it - along with any and every form of music on Earth - not only should be taught, but omitting such constitutes an inadequate curriculum)

However, I still feel overall that the statements Ewell makes are dubious in efficacy towards actually achieving what he advocates. I don’t think his self-serving, grandstanding, sweeping and incendiary generalizations are effective in persuading Western academia to adopt more comprehensive curriculums.
Now he’s famous for being the guy who says, “music theory is white supremacy.” Good for him. Whoopee.
I think something far more effective would have been, “Western academia offers inadequate music education when it omits non-Western music from its curriculum.”
Same idea, just far more effective, far less problematic presentation.
We would see educators merely start to incorporate ALL music into their curriculum (what Ewell advocates and what I strongly endorse) without all the incendiary, self-serving grandstanding.

@frogman The statement, “(I’ve) yet to enjoy anything by Ray Charles” constitutes that of a non-human or a woefully ignorant person.
If even the most popular of Ray Charles music does nothing to you, I don’t know what to say.
This person is either not a human or dreadfully ignorant.

@larsman I think that is fair and you make valid points.  
I shouldn’t have said someone who doesn’t like Ray Charles is “either a non-human or woefully ignorant.”  
My apologies.