R2R next? Don't like ESS

   Hi , I’m right there with you regarding ESS chipset. The Border Patrol DAC intrigues me too, what’s your budget ? Although I can’t give you a recommendation for R2R, I have been happy with Schitt DAC’s. I started with an Uber Analog Bifrost long ago and then went to the original Yiggy which I’ve used for the past 8-9 years. I like the Texas Instruments chips as they aren’t dry so like the ESS chips. That being said the new production Bifrost DAC’s are very well received and the early generation ones like my Uber Bifrost sell for $2-300. But be aware of what usb card is utilized. My Uber usb is for Windows 7 and gets fussy with newer streamers. I updated my Yiggy to the current card as you can do with any of them. Also maybe look at vendor’s that have a 30 day return polices including Amazon and take something for a test drive. Happy Hunting , Mike B. 

Depends what sound characteristics you’re looking for, and what’s your budget and are you looking for new or used.  What are some of the DACs you’ve heard and didn’t like?  All this is helpful info in making more meaningful and targeted recommendations. 

During my recent audions of cheap DACs, I also found that the ESS chips weren’t my preference either. I settled on an SMSL C100 with the AK4493 chip set for ~ ~$120. It was really good in it’s stock form for the cost, but adding a MUSES02 opamp, and linear regulated power supply really brought it up a few clicks. Extremely happy with that combination. The SU-1 is very similar for a bit less if you don’t want to pay for the remote.

Just a note. Budget DACs tend to sound like the technology they use... but this difference disappears as you move up the ladder (hehe). So, as a guess DACs over $3.5K or so generally don't reflect the chip set or technology used. At this level, enough design effort is put in to tune the player to a specific sound. 

Having tried Burr-Brown dacs (some are nice), later on some different ESS chipped designs, and various with Phillips chip sets, if you stay with chip based dacs, the

>> designer and special designs is where the real differences are << imo.

Of course you can try some of the resistor-ladder DACs, all the rage for some - many out there. However, if you must go with a processor chip based DAC, its worth reading up on the designer and the type of sound they were going for. I’m back to a simple TAD1543 chip based DAC, 24/96, with a tube in the power supply circuit, not the signal path - and enjoy it quite a bit actually. Opinions vary greatly, take your time looking around. Best of Luck.

The reason I keep my 14+ year old Esoteric UX3 SACD player is because of the dual Burr Brown PCM 1704 R-R DAC’s. There is an analog sound that is just so right sounding.  In my opinion it is far better than any of the ESS chips as I owned 2 Wyred4Sound dac’s and I always found a brightness to them with a tipped up treble.  The same for when I brought my Esoteric player to hear it against the newer models which used the Ashi Kashi dac chips, no where as smooth or analog sounding.  They were much more crisp sounding that gave me a splitting headache after a half hour or so. 

I know where you can buy one of these well regarded DAC's for $1400. 

https://futureaudiophile.com/weiss-engineering-helios-dac-reviewed/

Oh wait, I just noticed you don't want an ESS DAC, it's not for you- not transparent enough- sorry forget it. 

Implementation is key with dacs, FPGA, R2R and ESS or other chip dacs can all do analog like sound along with transparency. At lower end R2R and older chips will be more forgiving than the ESS.

I can heartily recommend the Denafrips Ares II.  I recently moved up to the Denafrips Venus 15, and the Ares has about 90% of the sound quality of the much more pricey (and bigger) Venus 15.  I think it's one of the best bargains in the audiophile world, especially if you can get a used one.  I compared hi-res streams on the Ares with 1st pressing vinyl (this was with my old Monster Cable Alpha Genesis 1000 cartridge--a very fine cartridge), and they were remarkably close.  If you want an analog sound without digital editorializing, the Denafrips DACs are for you.

If you do buy direct from Denafrips, they're currently offering to cover the tariff imposed by our fearless leader.

+1 for the Schiit BitFrost 2/64. No ESS chips and clever engineering to use 4 chips to optimize performance. Like most Schiit products, it's a phenomenal bargain. I'll upgrade mine eventually but it'll take something special to impress me. 

Go find an Audio Note dac or SW1X dac and you will be set.

Good Luck

Don

@drmuso when I looked Friday it said 20%.

Anyway, I just went through a review because my Topping D90 AKM4499 needs replaced.  The tariff has many people confused, including manufacturers.  I will list some brands that are good IMO. 

Border Patrol, Denafrips, Gustard, Holo to name a few.  You can find the model that suits your budget the lowest cost R2R i would buy is a Denafrips Ares.  Used $750.

I can never make up my mind.  I just purchased a Denafrips Pontus 12 used.  Used hold their value.  They have sold lots of them.  I would have purchased a new one but the current situation made me want to steer away from getting one here from China. People are selling any new ones at or above list.

OP here - some quick answers:

budget?  as little as possible. There are products that punch way above their weight class -- that's what I want -- just shy of diminishing returns.  Most of my setup is DIY (transport - rPi & digiOne, Interconnects, speaker cables, phono stage, etc.).  This is why the opAmp swapping appeals to me.  

Here's what I've tried so far (in order of preference): 

Maverick Audio D3 - AD1955 (w/ upgraded opAmp)

Khadas Toneboard -    ESS ES9038Q2M

Fozi zd3 - ES9039Q2M (w/ Upgraded opAmp)

SMSL Sanskrit - AK4493 DAC 

Hint 6 Dac - ESS Sabre32 Reference ES9018K2M

Don't get me wrong -- these are all good dacs and do what they're suppose to.  Out of all of them, I preferred the Maverick Audio D3 (10 years old!) over the others.  Especially with the Sparkos upgrades ... it really opened my eyes to digital capabilities.  I found the ESS dacs that I've tried in my system have 2 things in common: 1. digital glare or sheen, 2. emphasized treble.  Both of which I find fatiguing.

So, do I go R2R or spend more for a better ESS implementation (geshelli J3 for example).   

Another vote for Denafrips. Haven’t heard the Aries but I’ve really been impressed with their Pontus ll 12th.  You owe yourself a listen!

Schiit has the Modi Multibit 2 DAC for $300 brand new.  I had one and can recommend it.

Another vote for Denafrips. Look for a used Aries. You won’t be disappointed. I have the model right above it (the Pontus ll) and have been happy for a few years now.

All the best.

Another Aries II fan... It's the gateway drug to R2R DACs. I still use mine in my headphones system but moved up and over to Holo Audio for my main system. A good used Aries II is a no brainer. Enjoy...

So I've had a Schiit Bifrost 2/64. It was OK, but even in NOS mode still a little too sharp for my taste. I swapped to an MHDT Atlantis dac and it's a much better option for my taste. No bite, great soundstage three dimensionality, and still enough detail to be happy. Also if you like to tinker with a soldering iron, it's an easy piece of kit to modify as well. And for tubes to select, a good 6922 variant or 6SN7 with adapter is nice, but the WE296A takes the win.

Don't purchase cheap DACs. 😉

Chip or resistor ladder does not make that much difference .

I learned it after many many many moneys spent .

Schiit Bifrost 2/64 is decent and only $600 here https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650169946-schiit-audio-bifrost-264-version-black/ .  Don't like the click between songs when the transfer rate changes.

PS Audio DirectStream Mk1 can be found for $1500 used or $1749 refurbished from https://www.psaudio.com/products/directstream-dac

I have owned both and enjoyed each.

+ Denafrips. Love my Pontus II 12th with IRIS DDC combo.  The entry level Enyo 15th supposed to be a big upgrade. Topping now makes an R2R DAC at similar price point to entry Denafrips. Don’t know much about it, worth a look. I have a D90LE in my bedroom system which has a low watt SEP tube amp and warm speakers so the ESS chip effect is a good match. The Pontus II is superior in my main rig.

I was always a vinyl guy and purchased a SMSL SU-9 DAC as my entry into the world of DAC’s to replace the built in DAC on my Bluesound Node being It just didn’t sound that great. The SU-9 was surprisingly pretty good sounding but was not warm enough for me.  Last year, I attended Capitol AudioFest stopping by the Black Ice Room and listened to their Black Ice Glass FX Tube DAC and liked it so much as soon as I got home I ordered one.… It utilizes a Burr Brown Chipset but has Tube Output so by rolling the tubes you can obtain a very nice sound. I replaced the stock tubes with 1960 NOS GE 5751 Black Plates and it sounds fantastic !…At times I have to force myself to turn off my system.  I even demo’d it at one of our audiophile society's frankensystem events and the general consensus amongst the attendees was that the deck was very musical surprising many.

You may want to check them out, they do offer a home trial.  

Dip your toes very gently in to the world of R2R with a FIIO K11 $185

I can recommend the Holo Audio Cyan 2.  It’s designed to have one input because changing inputs is not as simple as pushing a button.  So if that works for you it sounds excellent, is very well built and costs about $1300 shipped.  It’s the best sounding DAC I’ve listened to for under $2K.  

Heh @iseland - yep, great comment.  That's the lesson I think.  I was spoiled with the tone board - it was my first dac for like $100 and it was surprisingly acceptable.  Moving around that same pricepoint - even doubling it - didn't seem to offer any more.

Seems Denafrips for the easy win and they're all of the place used.  Though, I must admit, I'm slightly intrigued with the tube dacs.  I will look into these more.  The Maverick audio was tube and I really enjoyed it.

I have been very satisfied with my Merason DAC. It uses a chip that combines the best of delta sigma and R2R conversion that results in a very analog sound. I had a Gumby and have tried the Yggy, Merason is my preference. 

If you can get the cash up go for the LTA, R to R with tubes…amazing Dac..

If you want burr brown get the New Ontech Dac07 from Denmark a steal at 2500…I love mine…

Geshelli J2 has option of AKM 4493 or 4499, I was just on the site the other daylooking into it and again just now.

The J3 has the AKM 4499 listed as the DAC, looking  into that as well.

I currently have a Topping V70 Velvet with the 4499EX, not sure I can really warrant spending more on a Sparkos chipped J3

Rick

op

your findings are bizarre Ess chips  are considered very transparent however the Ess dacs you tried wer not using their highest performing dacs which are the 9038pro  series 

theES9038Q2M is an older and less capable chip which doesn't represent the best Ess does the older dac is a two channel dac the 9038 pro has eight channels most companies employ all eight channels to lower distortion with the 9038 pro

by the way many of the worlds best dacs use the 9038pro: lumin ideon weiss all use this chip and all of these companies products are considered superb

one could also wonder how you are feeding your dac?

most of these dacs sound best playing high res via USB  and not through spdif the source feeding the dac is also extremely important.

if you want transparency look at chord.

Dave and Troy

audio intellect NJ

digital specialists

Look for a nice used MHDT DAC like the Orchard or Stockholm. R2R NOS Tube output

While I am glad you are using listening techniques to make your decision, your premise is incorrect IMHO.  The processing technology alone does not dictate SQ but rather the design intent of the engineering team, especially the combination of the processing technology and output technology.  While outside of your price point, I will give you four examples from my personal experience in choosing my DAC.  Each has different  processing/output technology  - the Mola Mola Tambaqui (proprietary/SS), the Bricasti M1 (switchable chip or ladder/SS, the AR DAC9 (chip/tube), and the DCS Bartok (ladder/SS).  Each is near world class in its own right.   Each has similar SQ attributes while sounding different at the same time (further elaboration is another discussion).  The point is ESS chips implemented in quality designs sound great and some ladder processors in inferior designs do not.  I had a Wyred ESS design for years that had the clarity you seek, sounding “analogue” like.  
+1 @ghdprentice   and though I hate to say it ​@audiotroy.  At your price point it is difficult to get what I describe and what you seek.  I personally recommend you seek a preowned retail $3-5k DAC regardless of the processing technology.  Preowned DACs usually sell for 25-40% of retail. 

Switched from the Benchmark DAC3 with ESS to the MSB Discrete DAC R2R. Difference is night and day. Smooth, liquid analog like. No Digital characteristics. 

I'll second the recommendation for Holo Audio. Just some of the most revered DACs you can buy. Search for reviews on YouTube that compare them with Denafrips. The Cyan 2 may seem out of your budget so I'll invoke the tired old adage "buy once, cry once". Most of us here have been through many DACs and the money spent and lost (when sold) can add up to a lot. I firmly believe it's better to stretch your budget (as long as you can still eat) and get something that you'll enjoy for a long time, possibly forever. You only have so many years before you start losing your hearing, you don't want to waste those years shuffling equipment that leaves you wanting.

Holo Audio products are famously well-built and their DACs measure/perform the best of any R2R DACs (the May is THE best measuring on the market, the step-down Spring 3 is the second best)

One note, Holo has a banner at the bottom of their page that says prices are going up 10-15% on 3/1. Current prices are honored until then. They don't mention tariffs as the reason, just that material costs keep increasing, but who knows. Anyway, it was enough to push me to go ahead and buy now.

I also find it bizarre ESS chip dacs claimed to  not be transparent, never heard that complaint before, colorless, cold, sterile are the typical complaints. If you have any of these complaints with ESS, improperly implemented and likely cheap Chinese variety. I'm with those who suggest moving to higher price dacs, the Laiv Harmony is a great R2R dac at $2700, amazing dac at the price, both forgiving and highly resolving. Dacs in lower price category short term answers, dacs $2-3K range can be reference dac for many.

@jfrmusic Switched from the Benchmark DAC3 with ESS to the MSB Discrete DAC R2R. Difference is night and day. Smooth, liquid analog like. No Digital characteristics. 

Yep, me too. Great specs on the BM DAC3B.  Totally un-engaging for me.  Was quite surprised. Was jumping out of my skin to get back to a good R2R dac, even a simple R2R chip dac. Ahh, much better, music came back.  

High-end Gustards are worth a look. R26 for R2R and A26 for AKM AK4499EX. I have three A26 for an active crossover setup. They invested in post-chip discrete analog output stages. Also separate power supplies for digital and analog sections. It also is its own streamer. 

As I have repeatedly said in several posts on many forums,  IT IS NOT THE CHIP IT IS THE OUTPUT STAGE and implementation and power supply that makes the biggest difference in sound . My current dac converting one's and zeros to music by ess 9038 pro and I haven't heard any denafrips doing it better yet...

+1, "IT IS NOT THE CHIP. IT IS THE OUTPUT STAGE, its implementation and power supply that makes the biggest difference in sound".    

And, of course, all your other components, your room and environment that makes for great sound quality.    

@carousel I agree.  An R26 might be found used. There's one on US Audio Mart for $1000, but they might take less.  I recently upgraded to a Gustard X-30 and I'm very happy with it.  I haven't heard the A26, but I'm sure it's nice. 

@iseland +1.  My new dac has four ESS9039SPRO chips. It sounds pretty great, IMO.

I have used very good R2R DACs, had an OPPO BD83 SE, then top of the line BD player with the best at the time ESS DAC chips, loved it for many years but now just not digging ESS chips. I find I prefer either an R2R which great ones can be found for a reasonable price or the AKM 4499 like my current very modest priced Topping V70 Velvet which has the EX version of that chip.

As mentioned the Deshelli J3 or J2 are very well executed designs and can be bought with AKM chips, I am likely to end up with the J3 and 4499 and sure I would be very happy with it and have the fun of rolling op amps.

Put that together with DIY speakers, cables, carefully picked source like the WIIM Ultra and amps (DIY or commercial) one can put together a dang fine system for a very modest budget.

Then focus on, if not before, room treatments which can be done well for very low cost and huge gains.....

Rick

@sls883 mine aswell! I think it's magic involved in the 4 ess chip solution 😁

Implementation matters a lot but I tend to gravitate to AKM chips.

Not experienced enough with R2R to compare.

+1 for the MHDT Orchid...

+1 for the LAiV Harmony...

period, end of search...

OP here again:

thanks everyone for the recommendations.  MHDT seems like a good place to start.   

I’m quite sure based on the forum experience that there is nothing wrong with ESS.  My findings are subjective and are my own, in my room, with my setup.  

+1 for Denafrips. I have been extremely happy with my Pontus II which sounds superb using the I2S connection to my Jay’s Audio CD transport. If the Pontus is outside your budget then checkout the Ares, their entry level model.

I really like Gustard R26. Not expensive and the sound suits me perfect. I listen to music through analogue sources primarily my turntables and reel to reel Revoxes and Studers. I use Qobus and Tidal only to find new music and after owning around 10 different dacs I found Gustard R26 and it sounds most "analogue" to me which suits me perfect. (I can´t listen to ess dacs I get headache after 20-30 minutes. To "sharp" sound)

@dclone I went from a Gustard R26 to a Gustard X-30 (four ESS9039SPRO chips). I was afraid that I would miss the warmth of the R26.  I don't.  The X-30 is very impressive.  I'm sensitive to sibilance and high frequencies.  The X-30 is very detailed, but not bright or sharp.  

Ive only had the Geshelli J2 AKM 4493 using an external Keces lps.

Vinyl is my 1st choice in SQ, but some Hi Rez streaming through the J2 is very impressive.

OP would probably want the J2 socketed . Added bonus, the Geshellis were great to deal with, USA product and for the price of the basic J2 its well worth a try.

What’s your budget ?   Denafrips  always has very good  sound build quality per $ Dollar spent.

I was the proud and very happy owner of a MSB Platinum Signature DAC (based on a proprietary R2R topology) for many years. I was lucky enough to find it in 2021 for $7,000 on USAudiomart from its first owner. However, dating from 2012, the unit did not handle native DSD, which led me ultimately to sell it last year and look for another R2R ladder-topology DAC. I settled for Gustard R26 (many glowing reviews!), first by itself, and then paired with a Denafrips Gaia DDC in the hope to come closer to what I was missing after my MSB sale.  I kept this combo for 3 months before selling it: It did handle DSD, but the musical result was more akin to coming from a chip-based process. I know exactly what you mean when you describe the sound of an ESS-based converter (I had been using an Oppo for many years): more forward, more bombast, less naturalness and authenticity; great for loudness-pop or background music, but dismal for classical or any recording containing a lot of spacial information.

Needless to say, I am back to MSB, this time with their "entry" offering, the "Discrete": while my Platinum Signature had three of the proprietary, hermetically shielded R2R modules per channel, the Discrete has only one. However, the sound is much closer to analog than what came from the Gustard/Denafrips combo, and in that regard resembles my old Platinum.

What I am trying to tell you: R2R topology alone does NOT GUARANTEE a more musical experience; there is much more involved here, probably having to do with physical separation of the signal-converting parts from the PSUs (the Discrete has two separate PSU chassis per channel), very precise clocking, and the very best materials. Also: try to find a DAC that uses a Galvanically-shielded USB connection. MSB uses a small converter for this purpose, which transmutes the USB signal into an optical one and then transmits it through two fiber-optic cables (one per channel) to the DAC; these lines can be a mile long w/o losing a single bit of information (a German company by the name of Acousence was the first to use this technology about 15 years ago). For all who doubt the critical importance of a premium DAC to bring digital music closer to the analog experience: listen to a top-shelf R2R, emphasis on "top-shelf", before you commit, and then patiently look for a second-hand deal every single day, as the good ones show up rarely and go very fast. R2R alone does not guarantee the best result: execution is paramount. Best of luck!