Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?

@aberyclark You postulate a $100 cable--something similar to Ice Age Cables basic cable which I use for the basid "upgrae cable".  That makes a lot of sense to me for a manufacturer to include that.  

Now to include a $4000, for example, cable would be a bit more difficult.  Lets see what Atmasphere says.

Jerry

The OP seems to be mixing “good enough” with “better-best”.

Typically, high-end electronic components designers are not also high-end cable manufacturers which requires different expertise 

It’s human nature to want to modify. How often does a stock Lamborghini stay stock? Compared to a Chevy Cavalier. 

@aberyclark I doubt atmasphere reads through new threads/posts daily on Agon. Chances are he would miss this thread of yours.

There is a way you might get his attention and he might respond to your thread. Might... JMHO, you come off with a negative bias right out of the gate.

Anyway, this should let him know you mentioned him and his company.

@atmasphere, "Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?"

.

@jea48 Nothing negative at all. I love Ralph’s products. Ralph is the only high end manufacturer that I am aware of on these forums. I always respect his opinions. I’ve seen Nelson Pass quotes to where (paraphrasing) "high end" power cables are no better than the ones he provides. I’m just curious how Ralph views the topic. Now there’s many dealers on this site and we all know what they are going to say. One rarely hears from an actual high end designer/manufacturer.

I get some arguments for actual "audio" wiring and cables. High end (aftermarket) power cables and fuses are two things I have a hard time putting my arms around.

@carlsbad

I'm guessing the $4000 cable cost nowhere near the selling price to produce. I'm also guessing the external $4000 cable will offer nothing better than the internal wiring of the component power supply can deliver. Again, assuming we are not talking about a custom length or some super rare listening environment. A Lamborghini will come with everything you need to take the car to the fullest extent. However, someone in a rare case may need to put snow tires on it (I know bad example).

The reason I am asking is I feel manufacturers of high quality components include all that is ever needed, power cable wise.

.

I’m just curious why many spend thousands of dollars on such when the manufacturer has taken the power cable into account when producing the product. I cannot see a High-quality audiophile component maker (especially some that sell volume) pass on a few dollars for a better sounding power cable if indeed the cable improved their product.

Different strokes for different folks. Not everyone’s taste is the same.

If a manufacturer included a $500.00 + power cord for a piece of high end audio equipment that would increase the price of the equipment by $500.00, or higher, for what ever the price of the power cord is. I can already hear the customer say to the dealer, "I don’t want that power cord. I use this brand."

Read page 8 ... The power cord can have audible effects! A good cable is recommended.

.

I've had a hard time testing said cables.  Plugging in, listening, swapping, repowering ad nauseum....... then my ability to discern gets mushy. "Recency bias" colors my perception. 

I asked the same question to ARC once. "Why don't you give me the best power cable matched to your $90,000 330m? Or do you?"   I was told- "we voice our amps to our standards and any changes that you make to your further satisfaction do not detract from our finished product's absolute quality."  Hmm..... 

Good power cables are essential. I'm just wondering if the expensive aftermarket cables make things "better" over the stock cable. Honestly, I'm not certain Atma-Sphere even supplies a cable with their equipment. 

@yesiam_a_pirate I'm with you, I think my mind/ears think something may be better. I've never done a TRUE double blind test. 

Even if a manufacturer supplied an upgraded power cord at a reasonable price there are those that would still need to upgrade to the cord of their choice, so why not keep the retail price lower to compete with the competition.

"Good power cables are essential. I'm just wondering if the expensive aftermarket cables make things "better" over the stock cable. Honestly, I'm not certain Atma-Sphere even supplies a cable with their equipment."

The reasons are fairly obvious. If a manufacturer included a $1000 power cord with an amp, 90% of the potential customers will say they already have a high end power cord and you're forcing them to buy something they don't need, or they just don't want it for some reason. There are thousands of cables in the marketplace. Does it make sense to force 1 particular cable on everyone? If you give the same cable to 5 different people, you will get 5 different opinions. 

I would switch the question around: Why do equipment manufacturers provide a power cord at all? Leave it up to the customer to decide what kind of cord he/she wants. Many TTs are sold without cartridge, and are unusable without one. Or for tube equipment one has frequently options about tube sets.

I guess the above premise also provides the implicit answer: Like Nelson said, above basic requirement, it does not matter for sound in the vast majority of situations. 

I find it also interesting that the standardized power cords are upgrade worthy. However, I have yet to hear about cords connecting separate power supply chassis to electronics units to have upgraded cables. Just some idle musings ...

@aberyclark  - Your question is answered thanks to @jea48 

Read page 8 ... The power cord can have audible effects! A good cable is recommended.

Best to ask Atmasphere owners about their experience. Right? As a past owner it is easy for me to say yes power cords make a nice improvement.  Not only on Atmasphere gear, but on most all gear I have owned.  Power cords are the most important cabling in your system.  Always start there in terms of relative importance. However, it sounds like the OP has already made up his mind on this topic per his posts here.  I do understand some folks may not hear or appreciate the difference an aftermarket power cord can make. Many reasons from room to gear to ears.  

Best to ask Atmasphere owners about their experience. Right? As a past owner it is easy for me to say yes power cords made a nice improvement.  Not only on Atmasphere gear, but on most all gear I have owned.  Power cords are the most important cabling in your system.  Always start there in terms of relative importance. However, it sounds like the OP has already made up his mind on this topic per his posts here.  I do understand some folks may not hear or appreciate the difference an aftermarket power cord can make. Many reasons from room to gear to ears.  

Manufacturers don’t wanna have anything to do with cables!

I don’t understand why you guys don’t understand this. It’s a noob thing to say.

they just give you the cheapest power cable just to prove to the dealer or distributor that it will turn on. That’s the only reason for that cable is not to be listened to. It’s just a function test.

Abbeyclark buy a used atmasphere amp experiment with different power cables from usedcable.com. If you are not happy resell them. Thats what I will do.

@aberyclark I just wanted to point out the 2 different definitions of a "quality power cable" that might require 2 different answers to your question.

Aberyclark sorry I mistyped your name. Lak is correct

Why do equipment manufacturers provide a power cord at all? Leave it up to the customer to decide what kind of cord he/she wants. 

@oberoniaomnia 

My unverified guess is that if the equipment is certified, a power cord must be included.

I have yet to hear about cords connecting separate power supply chassis to electronics units to have upgraded cables.

To your point, the power cable between my Krell preamp and power supply is a DB9 to DB9 cable that costs maybe $5. Those are signal cables once known as RS-232 or VGA. They have 26 or 28AVG conductors so they were never designed for power applications, especially the not-insubstantial amounts the Krell PS puts out. 

If you’re trying to determine “value”, you’ll never get there.

This high-end audio hobby is a small niche market. To cover time, effort, costs included R&D, markups are required.

In this copycat world, cable manufacturers do not give away their secret sauce to their competitors. We consumers are left in the dark also.

So all we have is understanding up to a point, then must evaluate increased sonics at a price - an often fuzzy subjective process.

Finally, seems most have benefited from upgrading their power cables, at least to the next level costing <1k.  Maybe try one on loan for free, or buy used and if unsatisfactory sell it afterwards.  Be very cautious to avoid buying “fake” used cables. 

"Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?"

@aberyclark Power cords affect the sound of an amp due to Voltage drop across the power cord. Due to the power draw of our tube amp power cords can affect them quite a lot but not so much for our class D where the power draw at idle is insignificant. If you were pushing that amp hard all the time then the power cord would make a difference in theory; so far we've no feedback on that at all.

yes ! cables  make  huge  difference. i  have  parasound a21+  ive  replaced standard power  cord  with Nordost, "heimdal"  power  cord. also  use  Nordost rca "heimdal"  between naim pre amp,  and  power amp  , best  thing  is  to  ask your local  dealer  for  an in home  ''try  before  you  buy '' .  most  dealers  will accommodate  you,   good  luck 

A better question may be "why do the manufacturers of a $7,000 amplifier even bother to include a power cable", given that it will be immediately replaced?

A better question may be "why do the manufacturers of a $7,000 amplifier even bother to include a power cable", given that it will be immediately replaced?

@tony1954 Because the customer has to be able to plug it in right away. Even though they may never use the stock cord, if you were a manufacturer and didn't include it you'd hear about it right away.

@devinplombier interesting possibility re legal requirement for some power cable. There would still be the possibility for basic and upgraded cable. Particularly those that according to electronics manufacturer have the best "synergy".

Someone else mentioned that the reason is that electronics manufacturers do not make their own cables. They do not make their own capacitors ... either, so that notion does not apply either.

Re simple interconnects, the ones I have on my Woo WA6 SE and also on the Holoaudio May are something quite different. My point stands that I have not seen any discussion on upgraded power connectors between power supply and signal processing box. Wall socket to power receptacle, yes. Signal interconnects of every description, yes. Power connection between power supply and signal box, no. I hope I did not give anybody any ideas, yikes!

Manufacturers don't want to get into the middle of a p**sing war. 

Buyers can use whatever cable they choose, just as they can install any fuse they want.

From my experience, power cables can exert a noticeable change in sound reproduction. AQ is my go to brand.

Bob 

@atmasphere Thanks for your response. What you said makes a lot of sense. One question, do you mean voltage drops from the "wall" or within the amplifier itself due to volume adjustment. Excuse my electronic engineering ignorance. If from the wall, would a voltage regulator/conditioner, etc...help with such?

I do agree if your amps were delivered without power cables, you would hear about it. I've read forums where somebody gives an impression about a device but points out that the remote did not include batteries. So you can only imagine if the person could not plug the thing in LOL

@aberyclark I 've had Krell Evo 302 with its stock 20A power cable, tried few others, the one from Krell was better and quite enough, imho. Burmester gives power cords with is components (which are also possible to buy separated) and again, they are hard to beat before Nordost Valhalla level. Needless to say, I keep Burmester power cords on my Burmester amp and player.

I heard that Gryphon and Accuphase stock cords are not too bad. And also Boulder, I think.

The most important cable in the system is tonearm cable not power cords.

@alexatpos Myy Luxman 595 came with a great power cable. I switched in A ZU Event cable and no difference at all. HOWEVER, The ZU cable was a smidge better with my old Nuforce ST120 (class a/b) vs the stock cord. Then again the NuForce was a $600 amp vs a $13,000 integrated.

@oberoniaomnia my Krell amp is over 30 years old, it has beryllium copper buss bars from power supply to signal circuits, so you haven’t given anybody any new ideas.

@invalid "bus bars" sound like something *inside* one chassis. I google image searched Krell bus bar, and I only get single chassis items. I doubt that on a power amp there would be bare metal external linkers like speaker jumpers.

I am talking about 2 box set ups with connecting cable, and about so-called "upgrades" to those power connecting cables. See below on the Woo WA6

And here the Holoaudio May with power connection cable.

@oberoniaomnia, aren't both cables in the photos above DC power from the power supply to the receiving equipment. Wouldn't that be comparing apples to oranges.

.

@oberoniaomnia there are quite a few high end cable companies that make custom cables for two box units. They may not advertise them, but they are available upon request. Just look up high end audio umbilical cables.

@inna +1 "Accuphase stock cords are not too bad”, indeed! Accuphase cables are very good electrically speaking! More expensive cable upgrades cannot not change sound anyhow, assuming no other issues like RFI nose etc. In analog design PC is at bottom of design pareto chart, which specifies impact of every chain part to final result.

+1 "The most important cable in the system is tonearm cable not power cords” yep, in analog sound system phono cable and tonearm wiring, on top of cartridge and tonearm itself, are very important parts! 

I’m 58 years old. Back in the old Stereo Reviews I read as a kid, I do not remember emphasis on cables like we have today. I’m sure there were others, however, the first "cable" manufacturer of any big advertising clout I remember was Monster. For myself, back then, cabling was easy. Most power cords were built in (on my components at least). I either used the cables that came with the unit or just went to Radio Shack and purchased their run of the mill interconnects. Of course, for speakers, I pulled the length I needed from the large spools at RS.

@atmasphere wrote
Because the customer has to be able to plug it in right away. Even though they may never use the stock cord, if you were a manufacturer and didn't include it you'd hear about it right away.

Then why don’t amplifier manufactures include speaker cables?  An amp is used to drive a speaker…..correct?   Obviously, I’m being sarcastic.

While rumor often has it that Pass doesn’t believe in upgrade power cords and cables, rumor and visitors also report that Pass uses expensive Silent Source Cables in their listening room and at shows...my Pass mono blocks came with good power cords, but I prefer my Cerious cords...

@oberoniaomnia, aren’t both cables in the photos above DC power from the power supply to the receiving equipment. Wouldn’t that be comparing apples to oranges.

@jea48

The cables shown in the pics carry DC power, but how is DC vs AC apples to oranges as far as the quality of the cables is concerned?

(If I misunderstood something I apologize)

The cables shown in the pics carry DC power, but how is DC vs AC apples to oranges as far as the quality of the cables is concerned?

The rectified DC is filtered through electrolytic caps to smooth out the full wave DC ripples and then in many cases is run through DC regulators.

The AC power cord plugs into a wall outlet. Hard tell what its about to receive. The good, the bad, and the ugly...

.

One question, do you mean voltage drops from the "wall" or within the amplifier itself due to volume adjustment.

@aberyclark I’m referring to Voltage drops from the wall. In the case of our class D the volume control will affect the Voltage drop.

Usually the house wiring has far less Voltage drop than the power cord. This has a lot to do with the fact that wiring in the wall is solid core. Such wire is not legal for power cords. So if anyone is wondering about the ’last 6 feet’ that’s the answer.

@atmasphere Thanks for clarifying

While rumor often has it that Pass doesn’t believe in upgrade power cords and cables, rumor and visitors also report that Pass uses expensive Silent Source Cables in their listening room and at shows...my Pass mono blocks came with good power cords, but I prefer my Cerious cords...

Many times, I believe, cable, audio furniture/accessory companies may help pay some of the "booth" costs if their products are featured. That is what I'm guessing. 

If every wired audio component forms a "link in a chain", how can replacing just one "link" in the chain have an appreciable effect on the whole chain?

Is the goal of substituting one less-effective link with a more-effective link to improve the conducted "signal" from the improved link onward, and how does that work?

(i believe atmasphere partially answered that question above, but I'm perhaps too dense to comprehend the explanation)

I agree the cable companies "loan" the cables...but if Pass thought their own cords sounded better, can’t imagine not using them in their voicing room and at shows...I read where Nelson Pass was loaned a pair of Kimber speakers cables, and quite liked them, until he learned they were $54.000 a pair...in their older manuals Pass simply said your cables shouldn’t cost more than your components...it's a fun company...

I have MA-1s and noticed some improvement with aftermarket power cords. Very expensive and borrowed. Didnt like the high end Shunyata power conditioner on these amps so they go right into my wall.

Power cords are (mostly) three runs of stranded copper wire with PVC insulation, twisted together (sometimes with filler material for damping), and encased in a PVC jacket.  The main variables that affect power transmission are the wire gauge, shielding (or not), and connectors.  It is not that expensive for an equipment manufacturer to include a sufficiently sized and shielded power cable that will facilitate pretty much the full performance level of their equipment.  That should be the baseline.

@atmasphere -

"Usually the house wiring has far less Voltage drop than the power cord. This has a lot to do with the fact that wiring in the wall is solid core." 

Wouldn't that be a case for keeping component power cords as short as possible?