Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?
The reason I am asking is I feel manufacturers of high quality components include all that is ever needed, power cable wise. Sure, some people buy power cables because they need special lengths or have some out of the ordinary "noise" issues that need extra insulation. Some even like the visual aspect of the aftermarket cables. I’m just curious why many spend thousands of dollars on such when the manufacturer has taken the power cable into account when producing the product. I cannot see a High-quality audiophile component maker (especially some that sell volume) pass on a few dollars for a better sounding power cable if indeed the cable improved their product. I cannot see a person buying that $7000 amp is not going to balk if the product was introduced at $7100 (with the better cable).
I wonder if Luxman, Accuphase, McIntosh, Gryphon...you name it "dressed" their power cables up to look like expensive aftermarket cables, owners would be so quick to "upgrade"?
I’d be curious to hear Ralph’s opinion on the subject
@mitch2Yes! You also want good solid connections at either end so they don’t heat; heat means a Voltage loss.
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If you want an inexpensive means of building a power cord, use the kind of AC power cord used by an electric dryer or stove. Put a set of decent connectors on either end so you don’t get the connections heating up (which represents a Voltage drop) and you’ll have a very competent power cord.
Of course you have to watch things like which side is hot and which side is neutral so an electrician might have to be the one to do the work for you.
Any tube amp has in addition to the high Voltage power supplies, also a filament supply which is usually not regulated. So when there’s a Voltage drop across the power cord, not only is the B+ Voltage on the power tubes a little lower but the tube is less efficient since the cathode (heated by the filaments) is running at a lower temperature since the filaments are running cooler.
Put another way this means that tube amps are generally more sensitive to power cords than solid state amps are. But solid state amps can be affected too. The more regulation that is used (for example, in our MP-1 preamp where all the power supplies are tightly regulated) the less sensitivity you’ll have to the power cord.
One variable I've not mentioned yet: In a power supply there are rectifiers that convert AC from the power transformer to DC and filter capacitors that are charged by that DC. But the rectifiers only conduct when the output of the power transformer is higher than the Voltage on the other side of the rectifier. The filter capacitors retain a charge from one iteration of the AC power waveform to the next, so the only time the rectifiers conduct is at the peak of the AC waveform. At that time, the current has to move swiftly to charge the cap and so there is a current spike when the AC Voltage is at the peak. This might only be for a few milliseconds. If the power cord has troubles with what is essentially a higher frequency (due to the steepness of the current spike itself) it could limit the charging time.
That could result in a lower power supply Voltage with more noise. Some power cords are better at this than others.
That is why you can hear differences between power cords. Anyone that says otherwise clearly has not measured the effect they can have on equipment. IOW what I’ve said here can be backed up with measurements.
Power cords are (mostly) three runs of stranded copper wire with PVC insulation, twisted together (sometimes with filler material for damping), and encased in a PVC jacket. The main variables that affect power transmission are the wire gauge, shielding (or not), and connectors.
True for the majority of OEM mass produced power cords.
For power amplifiers they may sound fine. For digital equipment not so much.
Most audiophile power cords are not built using three stranded wire conductors.
Solid vs stranded conductors will make a difference. Very few audiophile cables made today use stranded wire.
Method of conductor and cable geometry used can change the sound heard from an audio system.
Shielding can make a difference. Sometimes for the worse in sound. Depends on how it’s implemented.
Type of the wire used, therein the Hot and neutral current carrying conductors, can make a difference.
Agree the connectors used, male plug and female IEC connectors, can make a difference.
Wouldn’t that be a case for keeping component power cords as short as possible?
For OEM power probably. Depends on the wire gauge used. For an audiophile power cord not really. 5ft - 6ft seems to be pretty common.
Very few audiophile cables made today use stranded wire.
@jea48Just so you know, solid core wire for a power cord is illegal and for a good reason! On that account, I'm pretty sure your statement above isn't correct.
@jea48Just so you know, solid core wire for a power cord is illegal and for a good reason! On that account, I’m pretty sure your statement above isn’t correct.
Yes, a single solid core #14awg or a single solid core #12awg wire, or a #10awg solid core wire would not meet electrical safety code for a power cord.
Several smaller gauge solid core wires individually insulated grouped in parallel together for the Hot and neural conductors, for use in a power cord, will/does meet NRTL safety testing.
AudioQuest was making power cords back in the 1980s paralleling multiple small gauge solid core insulated wires together to make a combined equivalent single gauge conductor for the Hot and neutral conductors.
I sill have a couple of non shielded AudioQuest AC-12 power cords. It’s equal to a 12awg X 3 cable using four separate solid core 18awg cu OFHC insulated wires conductors for the Hot conductor and four for the neutral conductor. A 12awg stranded green insulated wire is used for the EGC, Equipment Grounding Conductor. The conductors were assembled together in what AQ called a "Hyperlitz design".
The individually insulated eight #18awg solid core wire conductors were placed surrounding the #12awg stranded insulated EGC. That design had to be the EE in Bill Lowe. It cancels out the EM fields from the hot and neutral current carrying conductors from inducing a voltage onto the EGC.
Fast forward to today high end audiophile power cords manufacturers are still using AQ’s use of using individually insulated solid core wire conductors. Though the wire gauge size of insulated solid wire varies in the design. I’ve read where some will have a mix of 18awg and smaller solid core individually insulated wires, and some add Lintz (insulation) wire in the mix.
The geometry construction of the power cord has greatly changed as well since the 1980s. And most of the building of the cable is done by had, from my understanding.
This info on Neotech's NEP 3200G includes a good image of the construction showing the type of solid core construction that @jea48is referring to. Scroll through the pictures in this next link to see a similar image of the construction of their flagship Grand Power Cable, which uses rectangular conductors.
I have tried several upgrade power cords on my Accuphase P4600 amplifier. None sounded better than the stock Accuphase supplies. Upgrded cords seem to darken the sound, reduce openness and airiness. Accuphase documentation is quite emphatic about only using their cord.
Use caution when shopping for “audiophile” cables and cords. Some of them are poorly designed and actually inferior to cheapo manufacturer-supplied cords/cables.
@jfrmusic +1 on findings "I have tried several upgrade power cords on my Accuphase P4600 amplifier. None sounded better than the stock Accuphase supplies. Upgrded cords seem to darken the sound, reduce openness and airiness. Accuphase documentation is quite emphatic about only using their cord."
-hopefully your Accuphase IEC receptacle's contacts didn’t get significant damage, often random aftermarket IEC plugs, leave heavy marks on contacts, and damage contact surface.
@helomech+1 "Use caution when shopping for “audiophile” cables and cords. Some of them are poorly designed and actually inferior to cheapo manufacturer-supplied cords/cables."
Some of the power cables I've seen pictures of are really thick and exotic looking. What could those manufacturers be doing in those designs? Are they adding capacitance or inductance that affects sound? I think most posts on this thread are just concerned with voltage drop so if you have proper gauge, that shouldn't be an issue. Most of my big class A/B amplifiers draw well under 6 amps so 14 gauge, 6' power cord should cover my needs.
Some years ago, I had a Bryston 4BSST2 amplifier that would occasionally go out on a safety fault. I contacted Bryston technical support and the first concern they had is if I was using a non-OEM power cord. They explained that some of the "hopped up" cords could cause that condition and really frowned on the after market cords. It turned out to be a ground loop but I found the manufacturer's concern interesting.
@61falconThe Bryston reply is interesting. Bryston seems to have others with issues and the cord was the culprit in some cases. It goes to show, if you are having some kind of electrical issue, try the stock cords and fuses before contacting the manufacturer.
No, they did not explain exactly how it would cause that. They did ask for a good description of the cord and wanted to ensure it was a Bryston OEM cord. That's why I was wondering what the exotic cords to to the AC signal that could create an issue e.g. greater capacitance or maybe a lot of inductance?
Such BS for the supposedly educated elderly. Perhaps marketing thinks many are lonely, ignored, and have little more than hobbies to pass their time away. So nail them with Unsubstantiated incredibly expensive BS.
solid core wire for a power cord is illegal and for a good reason!
@atmasphere, this is a stupid question I am sure, but since I don't know the answer I have to ask it. Why is solid core wire illegal in a power cord? Thanks.
Yep, fuse resistance is significant impactor of IR (voltage) drop in amp’s power supply. Major problem with amp’s internal power quality is power transformer/rectifier/capacitors, not PC!
if outlet wiring exceeds 20ft length, PC becomes less relevant to listenable IR drop issue..
I'm not atmosphere, but I'll take a stab @immatthewj question:
Standed wire in cords allows it to be flexible cord. If you used one solid strand of copper, it would be inflexible and prone to damaged if flexed too much. single strand in the walls is fine because it is a permanent installation and not subject to flexing.
It is quite possible (and rather likely) that after multiple handling and installations it could get bent back and forth enough times for one of the solid copper "rods" to break, which then would be a fire hazard. The same copper wires in your walls of course are static and are not flexed back and forth after initial installation.
If voltage drop is the reason/advantage of after market power cords, on a strictly hypothetical (or strictly theoretical) basis, I guess if one was to run Romex straight out of the wall and connect it to a IEC connector and connect one's gear to household AC in that manner, that would be the best solution?
And I did typed "hypothetical" and "theoretical": I am, in no way, intending to try this.
I guess if one was to run Romex straight out of the wall and connect it to a IEC connector and connect one’s gear to household AC in that manner, that would be the best solution?
Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.
I suppose that, theoretically, you could bolt down your amps to make them "permanently connected appliances" per UL 749 (appliances that are connected to the electrical supply by means of other than a supply cord and an attachment plug), get rid of your IEC receptacles at the rear of your amps and solder 12awg wire directly on to your power supply PCBs, and run single uninterrupted runs of wire to your panel.
You could not use Romex in this application because it is only allowed inside walls. You would have to install appropriately secured, listed conduit in the prescribed manner.
Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.
Example of a solid core wire power cord.
@jea48, but I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop. Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit? Was I thinking about this incorrectly? Because if I was thinking about this correctly, I was also thinking that completely eliminating the power cord between the gear and the in wall branch circuit would be the best way to eliminate voltage drop?
As far as your examples of where it is acceptable to run exposed NM cable, I am thinking that the attic would be included?
In other words, eliminate (a) the amp’s IEC receptacle, (b) the power cord, and (c) the wall receptacle altogether.
No, that could create another problem. No power disconnecting means at the hard wired piece of equipment. A plug and receptacle is an approved disconnecting means.
Also, imo, the hard wired Romex in no way could be considered as a power cord.
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Oh and that wiring method would yield you an isolated ground, by definition
Probably one of the most miss understood grounds by audiophiles.
@jea48, but I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop. Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit? Was I thinking about this incorrectly? Because if I was thinking about this correctly, I was also thinking that completely eliminating the power cord between the gear and the in wall branch circuit would be the best way to eliminate voltage drop?
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In response to my post:
Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.
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I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop.
That’s definitely important for feeding a power amplifier.
Not really an issue feeding a solid state DAC though. But with that said in 1998-1999 I bought a new Arcam alpha 9 CDP that Stereophile gave, as I recall, a B+ review rating. It would have been A- except for,... which I can’t remember.
I swear the power cord at best was 16awg wire. A flimsy looking cheap power cord. Ya, plenty big for a unit that says on the rear panel by the IEC inlet 20VA max. (20 watts max). For the heck of it I had an unused OEM 14/3 power cord that came with an ARC amp. I hooked it up to the Apha 9. The CDP sounded better to me. Why? Beats the heck out of me. Don’t knock it, until you try it!
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Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit?
Like I said, i don’t think of the power cord as an extension of the branch circuit wiring. It is said the power cord is not an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring, but rather an extension of the audio equipment AC power wiring. Some say it’s the last 5ft to 6ft of the power wiring feeding the equipment.
What ever an aftermarket power cord does, at least from my personal, and umpteen other audiophiles listening experiences, they do hear differences from aftermarket power cords. Some power cords for the better, and others for the worse. I think it has a lot to do with the equipment it is connected to.
I get kick out of posts where a guy says there can’t possibly be a difference in power cords. If the wire gauge is big enough for the connected load of the equipment that’s all that matters. But then they say, they tried a so called audiophile power cord and their OEM power cord sounded better. What??? A power cord can’t possibly make a difference but the audiophile power could did not sound as good as the OEM cord that came with the equipment. Can’t have it both ways.
No, that could create another problem. No power disconnecting means at the hard wired piece of equipment.
Is a disconnect required at permanently connected appliances? Generally, electric cooktops, dishwashers and the like don't have a disconnect at the appliance, just at the panel. That's also why they have to have dedicated circuits.
Like I said, for this to be kosher you'd have to "permanently install" your amps. That may be inconvenient, though only mildly so by audiophile standards.
And again I would not recommend Romex for this application but rather EMT or MC, which provide insulated ground as a bonus. I don't disagree that the latter, like so many other things, is misunderstood by many audiophiles but it does provide some benefits.
Such BS for the supposedly educated elderly. Perhaps marketing thinks many are lonely, ignored, and have little more than hobbies to pass their time away. So nail them with Unsubstantiated incredibly expensive BS.
Regarding the optimal power cord, one of the manufacturers (I seem to remember maybe Steve Nugent with Empirical Audio) used to say that Romex would actually make a pretty good power cord and that twisted 10 awg THHN would be better since twisting would reduce inductance. It seems twisted THHN in conduit would make a good in-wall wire for a dedicated line.
Chris at VH Audio offers his star quad 12 awg x 4 (stranded copper) bulk power cable because the star quad geometry reduces inductance even more than with a twisted pair. Reducing inducance is a good thing for power cables and speaker cables.
My DIY 1M long power cables feeding my amplifiers also have a star quad geometry using four runs of 10 awg NOS Western Electric tinned copper wire for an aggregate total of 7 awg per pole. Ground is also 7 awg. I don't lose sleep over voltage drop.
With my experience an expensive supposedly good power cord used for an amplifier gives you a little bit more power. I would not say that it really affects the sound quality, either in SS or tubes.
I finally bit the bullet and bought the long delayed power cords for my good stereo system. I have long believed that power cables make a difference as I’ve heard the difference, but deciding on which ones to buy is not so easy.
I’ve been delaying this purchase for years for fear of foolishly spending too much money on “snake oil” cables. Finally, I just couldn’t stand the mess behind my system any longer, All the cables were too long, crossing each other, coiled to shorten them. Most stock power cables are five or six feet long. With one exception of 54” all my cables should be under three ft. I finally decided on Iconoclast because I know for sure they are well made, and that!s important. But the other reason also has little to do with sound quality. It’s because I could get them to the exact inch I needed to reduce clutter, crossing power cords,and coils of excess power cords.I know of no other cables that can be ordered by the inch. Now all my power cables are no longer touching any other power cables (or interconnects) and I don’t need cable lifters because they are all off the floor because they are the right length. Whether this improves my amplifier I can’t say, but I can say my system does sound improved for every source.
Why are you asking 'opinions' about power cables instead of just asking what science and physics say, with quantifiable facts. POWER CABLES DO NOT CHANGE SOUND. Shame on anyone who says otherwise and perpetuates the marketing lies. I'm amazed there aren't laws protecting customers at this point.
Why are you asking ’opinions’ about power cables instead of just asking what science and physics say, with quantifiable facts. POWER CABLES DO NOT CHANGE SOUND.
@squared80 All one need do is use your ears you you can easily hear differences between most power cables. Earlier in this thread Ralph from Atmasphere explained that one aspect that is easily measurable and affects sound is how a given power cable handles the voltage drop between the wall and the amp — the more power hungry the amp the more significant the voltage drop and the more important the cable becomes. He said some power cables handle this drop better than others and again this can easily be measured, and this is just one aspect of why power cables can and do sound different let alone shielding, quality of the connectors, etc. If you wanna stick with cheap power cords and deny they make a difference have at it, but you are in the vast, vast minority here as most hear very significant differences between PCs and at least some of it absolutely is measurable according to science and physics.
I came away thinking that Atmasphere cleverly skirted answering the question of whether or not expensive power cables of the SAME gauge will improve the sound of an amplifier versus their less expensive counterparts.
Instead, I thought that what he was writing is that a power cord needs to be of significant gauge to handle amplifier voltage drop.
I believe that you (and maybe Atmasphere if I misinterpreted his post) are implying that power cables of the same gauge can carry different amounts of voltage from each other?
In fairness though, the actual voltage drop across a power cable is going to be as insignificant as its resistance and in any event, wouldn't mitigation consist of heavier gauge conductors (ref. Ohm's law)?
I am not suggesting power cables do not make a difference in sound quality, merely that voltage drop may not be the best explanation, unless of course the conductors are improperly sized. After all, some big amps can pull 50 or 60A from the wall during transients.
I believe that you (and maybe Atmasphere if I misinterpreted his post) are implying that power cables of the same gauge can carry different amounts of voltage from each other?
@jetter@devinplombierNo, I was responding to the general assertion made that power cables make no difference in sound and can’t be verified with science or physics, which is pretty much absurd on any level. I just mentioned voltage drop as one aspect because it was mentioned earlier in this thread and is measurable, but obviously things like capacitance, resistance, etc. can also be measured and can affect cable performance and sound. I usually avoid responding to the flat earthers here, but this one was so broad and silly I felt compelled. That said, there are variables like geometry, conductor (silver, copper), shielding, connectors, etc. that can all make a difference so that even cables of the same gauge can and will sound different. One only need compare 10AWG cables between different manufacturers or even two different lines within the same manufacturer to hear that this is the case. If you think all 10AWG PCs sound the same then we’ll just agree to disagree. Anyway, hope this clarifies things.
Honestly @atmaspheredeserves a lot of credit for being so forthcoming while being somewhat unfairly put on the spot by a question that applies not just to him but to every manufacturer on the planet, assuming of course that that question had value in the first place.
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