Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?

claiming as thicker than 100ft house wiring 3ft PC will tangibly affect sound is not justified!

@westcoastaudiophile It is absolutely justified if just you use your ears.

@soix would love to see your blind test report results! 

The more things change the more they stay the same.

@westcoastaudiophile Three words — Audio Science Review. Go there. You’ll love it.  They’re your peeps. 

@soix enjoy your ears! pathetic unsubstantiated comments will not help you here at AG! 

He is entitled to his opinion if this opinion is based on listening experience. Not so sure I would feel comfortable taking advice on equipment from a source that places so little value on the actual event. ASR has gone from an irritant to a joke.

I enjoy reading about the listening experiences of others. I did extensive blind testing before choosing my Cerious power cords. Now I choose by just listening 

thanks audition__audio! btw, after few decades of being sound/analog designer, a.s.r. is not my reference or guide at all! 

enjoy the audio-hobby!

@jl35 +1 on focusing and testing in details any changes, sometimes negative upgrades etc! 

Yes indeed. Believe me, I would rather spend less than more, but experience has taught me that often spending more pays dividends equal to or exceeding this extra expenditure. I dont understand the motive behind getting us to deny the validity of our senses. 

This weekend our audio group compared DACs in a single blind setting. The DACs were: Thor Audio/Audio Logic DAC (over 20 years old), an Audio Note entry level kit DAC and a new Chinese resistor ladder S.S. DAC. They all sounded very different. Most thought the Audio Note the best with the Chinese coming in second. Guess which DAC probably measured the best?

Then we listened to all of the same music on analog. 

claiming as thicker than 100ft house wiring 3ft PC will tangibly affect sound is not justified! 

@westcoastaudiophile As I explained earlier the wiring in the walls is far higher performance than most power cords so Voltage drops in it are less of a problem unless you're really drawing some current. Some audiophiles have 20Amp circuits installed on this account.

Yes indeed. Believe me, I would rather spend less than more, but experience has taught me that often spending more pays dividends equal to or exceeding this extra expenditure. I dont understand the motive behind getting us to deny the validity of our senses. 
 

@audition__audio  +1  My sentiments exactly. 

I easily hear differences in interconnects and speaker cable on my mid level system.

All my power cables are lower/ middle level Cullen and one Zavfino.  They are the only power cords I use and I don’t have the energy or desire to compare to any others.  Those who also have challenges getting behind their rigs will understand.

I know this has been discussed to death.

I can understand why cables in the music signal path will impact sound.

But I still do not understand how two similar gauge cables of different purity metals and qualities, both delivering equal power to a transformer, can impact sound.  EXCEPT if one has some sort of gizmo to filter noise out of the electricity if the power is "dirty" and the unit’s transformer can’t filter it

@atmasphere with all my respect to you and your wonderful creations, I like to add more details to this, somewhat important, discussion:

1) I think it’s pointless do discuss effects caused by “most cables/cords/wirings” without bringing up technical parameters, such as R/L/C per foot or meter, for specific parts. Power cables in my usage are better than my house wiring, thus have less voltage drop per length. Other important variables in power interconnects are connections between wires and terminals, and between mics. contacts. 

2) Amplifiers with transformers/rectifiers/capacitors in a power supply, draw current at very short time over sine wave. Worse, the better the amp is the shorter time/phase segment current is drawn. The best power block designs I’ve seen and worked on, current drawn only 1..5% of time. Such circumstances make even 20A certified wiring/outlets not enough to reduce IR drop over AC supply, which can exceeds 10 Volts! Thats why house wiring shuld be the first step to improve sound system power delivery, to reduce IR drop caused by 50A or more short current spikes. 

3) Transformers’ used in the amp’s power supply are the most IR-dropping devices in the chain, that’s why top brands use very expensive, well performing, heavy ones. Priciest part of Parasound JC1 for example is transformer!

@westcoastaudiophile Usually the power transformer is one of the most expensive parts in any amp, unless SMPSs are used.

Its very difficult to measure the RLC (especially the R) on a lot of power cords (you need a really good meter), but its fairly easy to measure the Voltage drop across it. You can measure how it behaves with those current spikes we both mentioned too.

@atmasphere I am measuring R/L/C very accurately at 50Hz/1kHz/20kHz freq. point often, using 4-wire RLC meter. Please ping me in IM if you need some guide. Measuring Voltage drop isn’t trivia, DMM isn’t enough, you need scope..

@westcoastaudiophile Yup! What you are describing is beyond most audiophiles. Many of them have a DVM though and it can show that there's something going on...

@atmasphere - based on what I have read from your posts and the exchange between you and jea48, would it be safe for me to summarise that you are of belief the primary and perhaps even only issue of the effect of a power cable on sound has to do with voltage drop across the cable and little else? Meaning, past a fairly low bar of voltage drop prevention, no amount of tinkering with the geometry, insulation, or detailed design of conductors in a power cable will change its effect on the sound from one’s speakers, everything else unchanged?
Or might you be of belief that there could yet be some things that we have not been able to measure about that last five feet of cable length, leaving some things still beyond full comprehension?
I do realise I’m trying to pin you down here, but it always helps in fully understanding a position as influential as yours in following future discussions on like topics, or any other audio related topics, for that matter.

Thanks much, Ralph : )

in friendship - kevin.

based on what I have read from your posts and the exchange between you and jea48, would it be safe for me to summarise that you are of belief the primary and perhaps even only issue of the effect of a power cable on sound has to do with voltage drop across the cable and little else? Meaning, past a fairly low bar of voltage drop prevention, no amount of tinkering with the geometry, insulation, or detailed design of conductors in a power cable will change its effect on the sound from one’s speakers, everything else unchanged?

@kevn It would not be safe to summarize that at all and he never said or implied anything of the sort.

@soix it is for this reason my post has been phrased as a question and not a supposition - I am quite sure Ralph would be happy to speak for himself : )

in friendship - kevin

Manufacturer’s really hate getting into the power cord discussions.

Occasionally some consumers who argue against the benefits of changing out the power cord supplied with the amplifier like to quote Nelson Pass’ or Roger Russell’s comments from decades ago.

This comment from a recent Pass Labs amplifier manual is typically the most a manufacturer will state publicly regarding after market power cords: I think we can read between the lines

Pass Laboratories provides a power supply cord that meets all legislated requirements for the market in which the product was originally sold. If you choose to substitute an after-market product we urge you to choose one that is fully safety rated by the necessary local authority.

OP suggested Gryphon, here is what one of their manual states:

AC Power Cords:

Use only a dedicated AC power cord. Do NOT use loudspeaker cable or other wire not expressly designed to carry high current. Improper cable or cables of insufficient gauge will generate heat and the insulation may melt with disastrous results. Do not run, thin, coiled, extension cords. AC cords DO have an audible effect on sound quality, but experiments should be carried out with due consideration to safety.

And:

Choice of Cables:

Because your Antileon is a high-resolution Gryphon audio device, it will immediately reveal the characteristics and possible limitations of the other components in your system, as well as those of the interconnects and loudspeaker cables used to connect your system. Wiring should never be utilized as "equalizers" to correct errors elsewhere in the system. Instead, any error should be corrected at the source, so that interconnects and loudspeaker cables can be selected solely on the basis of sonic neutrality. For this reason, we employ Gryphon’s own range of interconnects and cables in every stage of the design of every Gryphon product. A very important Gryphon topology keypoint has always been the abillity to obtain near perfact phase response - the foundation for a realistic and stable soundstage - this requires wide bandwidth.

Cable warning: In recent years a number of cables have emerged on the marked that are manufactures with no or little consideration to the electronics that they are connecting, unfortunately there are no standards and some ”exotic” cables can create unstable working conditions, these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

Cable warning: In recent years a number of cables have emerged on the marked that are manufactures with no or little consideration to the electronics that they are connecting, unfortunately there are no standards and some ”exotic” cables can create unstable working conditions, these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

wtf does that even mean 

devinplombier

432 posts

03-25-2025 at 11:56pm 

Cable warning: In recent years a number of cables have emerged on the marked that are manufactures with no or little consideration to the electronics that they are connecting, unfortunately there are no standards and some ”exotic” cables can create unstable working conditions, these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

wtf does that even mean 

I apologize if I'm not using the proper methodology to quote subscribers posts but I'll get a handle on this eventually.  Now on to my comment...

Yes Devin, what planet does this guy live on?  The whole industry surrounding accessories for hi fi has mostly been based on ludicrous claims about what these products do and the dubious and unscientific claims manufacturers make about them.  If it seems too good to be true it probably is!  On the other hand, reliable connectivity and continuity between components is without exception but if a hobbyist wants to dress up their system with cables other than what comes in the box with a new component by all means and forums like Audiogon can be a valuable resource to help wade through the hype and make rational choices about realistically functional additions to their systems even if they know its superfluous bling. 

I thought that (power) cables discussions (pro et contra) on audiophile forum are thing of ancient past. However, for anyone who has doubts, my advice would be to simply insert all Cardas power cords in his system and than change them with Nordost. If one could not hear the difference, its in a wrong hobby, or needs an urgent control of his ears

On the other hand, the ’proper’ question should be why and how the certain manufacturers had managed to make their power cables sound like the rest of their lines, meaning, ic and speaker cables. For example, if you take above mentioned Cardas or Nordost , you will notice that CGR or Nordost Valhalla power cords have the same sound signature as other cablles from that particular line..

So, imho, its obvious that manufacturers have the ways of ’tailoring’ the sound of cables. Would be very curious to know and understand process behind it

its obvious that manufacturers have the ways of ’tailoring’ the sound of cables. Would be very curious to know and understand process behind it

So would I

would it be safe for me to summarise that you are of belief the primary and perhaps even only issue of the effect of a power cable on sound has to do with voltage drop across the cable and little else?

@kevn No. Bandwidth makes a difference too. I mentioned this at the top of the previous page.

these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

We’ve made OTLs with more bandwidth than some solid state amps. All 'constructions' (which might mean 'amplifiers') are bandwidth limited no ifs ands or buts. If you have enough feedback in the amp (+30dB) it can correct for phase issues that for which you otherwise need the bandwidth which is how class D amps do it.

The bandwidth of the equipment used has nothing to do at all with whether or not the power cable will have an audible effect on it.

But I do agree with some of the warnings presented; you don’t want to use a cable that could start a fire or cause electrical problems; that bit is just common sense.

@atmasphere - thank you for your generous reply, Ralph : )
It has got me thinking of two more questions - your reference to bandwidth will obviously have to do with the bandwidth of the cable itself, since as you stated - ‘The bandwidth of the equipment used has nothing to do at all with whether or not the power cable will have an audible effect on it.’ This being the case, may I assume then, that aside from the measurable quantities of voltage drop and bandwidth of the cable, nothing else will have an effect on sound quality from power delivered by a power cable, everything else unchanged? And, how difficult is it to build a power cable with the greatest possible bandwidth? Thanks again for your kind replies.

In friendship - kevin

@kevn it's starting to look as of this dumpster fire of a thread - starting with the original post - is aimed at putting @atmasphere on the spot - about cables, no less, a topic only a newborn or an imbecile would regard as safe and noncontroversial​.

The man operates a business. He'll discuss cables as much as he wants to of course, but it's like you keep poking at him for some reason. Maybe it's time y'all got off his back and let him run his business? Why don't y'all go ask McIntosh and Pass Labs and PS Audio why they don't include audiophile cables with their products? Be sure to let us know what they said 😂

@devinplombier in truth, very very few manufacturers would bother getting into discussions such as this, which is a sad thing. My questions for Ralph may be putting him on the spot unintentionally, but it is so that I, and possibly others, may have another data point to learn from in making relationships with other posts that either involve Ralph or not. I suspect that so many posts in audigon are made to fault find or finger point, that defences and policing immediately spring to action if so much of a hint of curiosity is raised - this is all so silly.

ive found it is only when we are each called to task and have to unequivocally state what we think or believe, that true communication is achieved. It is not to shame or disqualify, that directness of communication exists, but for the reason of learning, which I also believe to be a primary reason for audiogon’s existence.

in friendship - kevin

@kevn 

I respect - and share, mind you - your desire to learn more about cables, and more specifically which of their properties benefit sound quality and which do not.

I also think you're asking a person you should not be asking. The subject is fraught, I'm sure you'll agree. Now, imagine for a moment that you make your living manufacturing high-end audio components. Your entire customer pool is a few hundred people and shrinking. If you start opining on controversial, divisive subjects that your customers care deeply about, you know that someone is going to take umbrage, and possibly start sharing their displeasure with like-minded folks on social media.

Knowing that, would you feel compelled to state your beliefs anyway? And if you did, do you think it would help or harm your business?

ive found it is only when we are each called to task and have to unequivocally state what we think or believe, that true communication is achieved.

Around here, that's called bullying, and it is considered abuse. Just sayin

@aberyclark "I cannot see a High-quality audiophile component maker (especially some that sell volume) pass on a few dollars for a better sounding power cable if indeed the cable improved their product. I cannot see a person buying that $7000 amp is not going to balk if the product was introduced at  $7100 (with the better cable)."

Rega does and it's available as aftermarket as well for anyone who'd wish to try one. 

@devinplombier ‘Around here, that's called bullying, and it is considered abuse. Just sayin ’ - and how well that sums up the state of the union, in relation to a simple search for directness and truth. Thank you for the measured way you have responded, in any case : )

@atmasphere - Ralph, if indeed your typical directness and straight-shooting still stands in this particular instance, I would still very much appreciate your response - thank you! 

In friendship - kevin

@kevn It’s the way you supposedly “ask a question” that’s the problem here. You pose suppositions about what @atmasphere is saying that he’s neither said nor implied in any way — you just make them up in your own mind — and then after incorrectly attributing them to him you then ask him to defend those positions that he never had in the first place. That’s just an absurd and accusatory way to supposedly “ask a question” and probably why @devinplombier took it as bullying. It’s a ridiculous tactic, and in doing it this way you come across as a complete troll just wasting Ralph’s valuable time (and ours). And just saying it’s “in friendship” doesn’t repair the damage or paper over anything as it’s patently obvious what you’re doing here. Better to just come out and ask him what he thinks makes a difference in power cables rather than accusing him of things he never said in somehow trying to elicit the same information. That’s just unnecessary and poor form, and frankly you owe Ralph an apology for all the things you’ve inappropriately and falsely attributed to him.  

@devinplombier said: 03-25-2025 at 10:56pm

Cable warning: In recent years a number of cables have emerged on the marked that are manufactures with no or little consideration to the electronics that they are connecting, unfortunately there are no standards and some ”exotic” cables can create unstable working conditions, these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

wtf does that even mean

.

In reference to:

@mclinnguy post: on 03-25-2025 at 09:38pm

Cable warning: In recent years a number of cables have emerged on the marked that are manufactures with no or little consideration to the electronics that they are connecting, unfortunately there are no standards and some ”exotic” cables can create unstable working conditions, these cables are often coaxial speaker cables that may work fine with Tube amplifiers or other bandwidth limited constructions.

LOL

I think this should also be used in trying to understand what is being said.

@mclinnguy Said: 03-25-2025 at 09:38pm

OP suggested Gryphon, here is what one of their manual states:

AC Power Cords:

Use only a dedicated AC power cord. Do NOT use loudspeaker cable or other wire not expressly designed to carry high current. Improper cable or cables of insufficient gauge will generate heat and the insulation may melt with disastrous results. Do not run, thin, coiled, extension cords. AC cords DO have an audible effect on sound quality, but experiments should be carried out with due consideration to safety.

Several years ago, on Audio Asylum forum a guy built a DIY power cord using CAT5 twisted 4 pair data cable. WOW!. 120Vac. Available short circuit fault current at the wall outlet for a 20 amp circuit could easily be in the hundreds of amps before the breaker will trip.

I have read on audio forums where DIY power cables where built using Speaker cable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some audiophile out there has built a DIY power cable using coaxial cable to build a power cord.

Years ago I used to post a photo of a power cord sold by an audiophile internet company showing 3 single insulated conductors twisted together with only a loosely protective covering of a cellophane plastic. WOW. Going from memory the wires were 16AWG.

FYI, unless the circuit breakers in your electrical panel are AFCI (Arc Faualt Circuit Interrupter) type breakers they will not trip in the event of an arcing fault. Therein Hot to neutral, or Hot to Ground or all the above. Burn baby burn until sparks fly causing a fire. Even then the breaker may not trip. Continuous current in the faulted circuit over the handle rating is required for the breaker to trip open.

.

Several years ago, on Audio Asylum forum a guy built a DIY power cord using CAT5 twisted 4 pair data cable. WOW!. 120Vac. Available short circuit fault current at the wall outlet for a 20 amp circuit could easily be in the hundreds of amps before the breaker will trip.

I have read on audio forums where DIY power cables where built using Speaker cable.

@jea48 

This doesn't surprise me, but one may conclude those with the budget of a Gryphon would be a little more inclined to not "cheap out" and DIY? But it is the manual for a reason!

This being the case, may I assume then, that aside from the measurable quantities of voltage drop and bandwidth of the cable, nothing else will have an effect on sound quality from power delivered by a power cable, everything else unchanged? And, how difficult is it to build a power cable with the greatest possible bandwidth?

@kevn I previously described the two most important aspects that affect an amplifier, insofar as a power cord is concerned. There are other effects but there are so minimal they can be ignored. I don't think the 'greatest possible bandwidth' is all that important, since the charging time we're talking about is milliseconds rather than microseconds (so not particularly high frequencies). So the task is actually pretty easy once you understand that fact. The raw AC Voltage drop across the cord dominates the equation, so to speak.

@atmasphere +1 "I don't think the 'greatest possible bandwidth' is all that important, since the charging time we're talking about is milliseconds rather than microseconds"

power delivery capacitor charge speed is limited by: 1) power network, with all transformers, between power plant and outlet point, which is highly inductive, thus slow 2) some small effect of power cable. 3) amp internal circuitry, including transformer/s and series resistance in the charge current flow. 

@jea48 "Years ago I used to post a photo of a power cord sold by an audiophile internet company showing 3 single insulated conductors twisted together with only a loosely protective covering of a cellophane plastic. WOW. Going from memory the wires were 16AWG."

Mapleshade - they had a whole "loom" based around this construction.

@faustuss

That’s it!

Look at them high quality audiophile connectors.

After reading about the $300 fuse, mega-buck power cords that defy physics, and watching the video about Mike's audio barn, I recommend that obsessive audiophiles should have a long time-out and appreciate the benefits of silence. 

Perhaps a withdrawal of aural stimulation will alleviate irrational behaviors. 🥴

@atmasphere thank you so much for your clarity and continuation here, Ralph. I fully understand now - I usually trust my abilities to read between the lines but did not want to take a chance on your sense of things on this particular issue. : )

In friendship - kevin

@soix I felt I was being very nice to you the first time in response, but I must say now, you just have to stop letting your dogma curtail conversation between two other individuals. My question was to Ralph and not to you, over an issue he was perfectly capable of answering directly. If there was rudeness and bullying, and any forthcoming apology, it was and would be entirely from you. I am just so glad no one else chose to join you in this silly endeavour to police your sacred cow.

It would not be for me to say you don’t deserve friendship, but you will not receive any more responses from me to that obvious chip on your shoulder. Better still, perhaps you should be seeing someone about your problem.

kevin

Ralph is one of the few manufacturers who will get on Agon and answer questions of all sorts, and sometimes that puts him at odds with some folks. I do not own any of his gear currently, but I highly respect his views and insights and appreciate his input.....and I'll definitely be looking at his Class D amps when i add one, just because of this.....and his reputation.

Try some new cables, build a few cables, see if they work for you; if they don't then at least we've learned something. I am a cable believer, and to my ears they do make an audible difference....especially as my system has gotten more resolving. That's me, with my gear, and my ears......some agree, some disagree.

Maybe it's placebo, but I don't think so. Plus I am LOVING building DIY cables right now, it's meditative and I end up with a product at the end. If I don't love the cable (or it's not better than what I have), I give it to a friend.

Power cables do not change sound. Anyone who says otherwise is lying or willfully ignorant. Don't drink the snake oil... it's thick in here. 

Ah, the joys of negative expectation bias. That's when you have a belief that cables (or other audio gear) do not have an effect on sound, which leads to not hearing a difference even when other skilled listeners can hear a difference. It's important to recognize that controlled listening trials (using single or double-blind testing) can control for positive expectation bias (where an expected difference can bias results), but even blinded testing cannot control for negative expectation bias. This makes it incredibly important not to underestimate the power of expecting "no difference" when comparing audio equipment. But I definitely don't think people with negative expectation bias are lying or ignorant. 

@sdl4 "Ah, the joys of negative expectation bias. That's when you have a belief that cables (or other audio gear) do not have an effect on sound, which leads to not hearing a difference even when other skilled listeners can hear a difference. It's important to recognize that controlled listening trials (using single or double-blind testing) can control for positive expectation bias (where an expected difference can bias results), but even blinded testing cannot control for negative expectation bias. This makes it incredibly important not to underestimate the power of expecting "no difference" when comparing audio equipment. But I definitely don't think people with negative expectation bias are lying or ignorant."

Please!  It's just a freakin' wire!