I am assuming some of you have experienced the following.... All else being the same in the chain, you replaced a power amplifier and started hearing more resolution and detail, perhaps a lil more in a track that you have heard a thousand times.
Ime, the higher you go up in price doesn't necessarily guarantee that you could experience the above mentioned. It seems to come down to the nitty gritty of the circuits under consideration, i.e., the black art of power delivery and analog circuit design.
What is a power amp you may have experimented with that provided the maximum detail and resolution at any price? (Not just perceived changes in tonal balance, etc).
I am hoping to shortlist a power amp based on some suggestions here for a future purchase.
P.S. If you are an ASR type of guy who thinks all power amps sound the same, this may not the right thread for you, I suppose...
Maximum detail and resolution = Benchmark AHB2. I was hoping to use them with my Yamaha NS5000 speaker. However, there was a tiny bit of hardness on top that made me look at other options. My system is neutral with only a bit of warmth from my Holo Serene preamp. So, with a warmer DAC or preamp the AHB2 may have worked. I have used the AHB2 with many systems but the NS5000 is the best I have owned, and it showed some deficiencies in the AHB2.
I now use the CODA #16 with these speakers, and it has almost the same amount of detail and resolution as the AHB2 but with a lot of Class A smoothness. There is no hardness on top. I love this amp, and I cannot get myself to sell it, since I would regret it. The new CODA S5.5 maybe a good option for less demanding speakers. I also think the new CODA System 100 (I think) at $30kish could be a killer amp.
I am looking for another amp to use with both the NS5000 and my office speaker, the Magnepan LRS+. I demoed the new SimAudio North Collection 761 which was a detail and resolution champ. It may have been as detailed as the AHB2. I loved the amp, Though I did have a bit of fatigue. I attributed that to the Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, which has a Beryllium tweeter and mid. I think the not bright and very revealing Zylon drivers on my NS5000 would sound amazing with the SimAudio 761.
I also demoed the Luxman M10x amp and remembered how much I loved the older Luxman m900u. I think the M10x is more detailed and better for my needs than the m900u. I think the CODA #16 and the Luxman M10x are rather close in sound. This makes me think the 761 maybe what I get, but that Luxman really gets me into a good place.
Decisions, decisions. Luckily, I am broke for now.
I also demoed the Luxman M10x amp and remembered how much I loved the older Luxman m900u. I think the M10x is more detailed and better for my needs than the m900u.
Hmm, good to hear that the M10x is more detailed than the m900u (currently have the latter, wonder what they changed...), i.e., something for the shortlist/within reach. The benchmark is not for me. I bought it, lived with it for a couple of weeks and sent it back. It had a unpleasant that I couldn’t get over.
On a different note, the 70k Aavik class A had an insane amount of detail...but, the 70k is problematic at the moment with 2 kids in college and spouse monitoring the bank accounts like a hawk. AudioGroupDenmark dealers are so greedy!
I forgot to mention that I also heard the CH Precision top of the line amp with the top end Clarisys speaker. That amp was amazing until I asked the price. over $100k. Not as warm as the CODA #16 and maybe the Luxman. I did not hear the Luxman on the Clarisys. I think the SimAudio was still a bit more detailed but that could have been the Beryllium drivers though the Clarisys ribbon seemed very revealing.
Bakoon make the highest resolution amplfiers I have used and heard.They sound extremely natural and pure.Next to them probably CH Precision.At a much greater price.The Bakoons are a relative bargain.
I forgot to mention that I also heard the CH Precision top of the line amp with the top end Clarisys speaker. That amp was amazing until I asked the price. over $100k.
@yyzsantabarbara Bets are off if you heard it against a different speaker. Hopefully, you'll get a chance to hear it with your NS5000 (I know the latter quite well).
Bakoon make the highest resolution amplfiers I have used and heard.They sound extremely natural and pure.Next to them probably CH Precision.At a much greater price.The Bakoons are a relative bargain.
@jtgofishthanks for the suggestion...interesting brand/designs.
I just acquired brand new Stellar PSAudio M 1200 hybrid class D monblocks. Though I have less than 75 hours on them, I find them to have exceptional clarity with a wide deep soundstage with very nice extension. Very fine, reasonably priced amplifiers indeed.
+1 Be very careful what you wish for. As uy’s example Benchmark is great at detail, but at a big musical cost. In my past I have pursued detail and imaging and found myself without music… lean midrange and little rhythm and pace. Companies like CH Precision bring both, but at a real financial cost. Make sure you spend a lot of time actually listening to the music… being carried away (or not) by the music or you can end up with a fatiguing, dry, scientific instrument, where after you measure the sound characteristics of the album, you quickly want go do something else. Nothing wrong with this as a hobby… as long as that is your goal.
@ghdprenticeI have owned the AHB2 about 6x for both headphones and 2-channel. It was great with some gear not so great with others, such as my NS5000 speakers. I no longer have an AHB2. I have a Benchmark HPA4 preamp that is similar to the AHB2 for my future headphones, RAAL 1995 Immanis.
What I have now is close to being great with my NS5000, the CODA #16. Though, I miss a tiny bit of that detail the AHB2 had. That is why the SimAudio and the Luxman are a potential second amp for me.
The Luxman M10x is outstanding. However, I am surprised the Ayre Acoustics get no mention yet. Their VX-R Twenty is equal to the Luxman and if you really want to get there the MX-R monoblocs paired with KX-R Twenty preamp is hard to beat. I am very sure I cannot tell the difference between them and amps costing significantly more.
Probably down the scale from your consideration, but I had the same experience with my equipment. Using a Rogue Audio RP-7 preamplifier (tubes) with a highly-regarded tube power amplifier that replaced a Benchmark AHB2 driving my Fyne Sudio F-702s, I concluded that the switch resulted in lost definition, some imaging degradation, and inaccurate tonal qualities of instruments. After extensive research, I replaced the tube power with two Odyssey monobloc amps, extensively upgraded Stratos amps, almost Kismets. WOW! I now had back all that I felt I had lost in terms of those three considerations. The clarity is superb, instrument location is quite good—expanded both in depth and laterally, and the tonal qualities of the musical instruments are excellent; and there were improvements in bass reproduction, although I am still researching gradual upgrades, including from my older Definitive Technology Supercube 6000 subwoofer (perhaps the Paradigm XR11), as well as a new DAC (maybe anYggdrasil MIB?) and streamer upgrades (likely an Innuous Zen MK3). I realize that there are system far better than mine, but I am quite pleased with the musical qualities I am getting with my system.
So, yes, the change brought more detail and improved sound quality … without “breaking the bank.”
Benchmark AHB2 brings out details in music that most people will never here. As @ghdprentice mentioned, it can be too much of a good thing. I took his advice and brought in amps that are more emotionally engaging to me.
The Hegel H590/H600 integrated amplifiers (used as amp/preamp only). Absolutely incredible!!! High current/damping factor that can drive anything with authority, beautiful fine detail and transparency, super dynamic, layering, air, sound staging, height, depth, width, neutral and natural sounding but doesn’t lack a degree of warmth. The H590/H600 are world class, reference caliber sounding pieces of high end audio kit and, IMHO, an unbelievable value . A couple years ago, I moved from a very large listing room to a smaller room in the house and space became an issue so I replaced my separates with a Hegel H590. The H590 made me forget all about the separates. I’ll probably never part with my H590 as it’s just absolutely phenomenal driving my Revel Salon 2 speakers. Happy listening.
@deep_333 It would seem there are as many great amps as there are members offering opinions. I assume many are recommending what they have in their own system. So I'll just give a +1 to Hegel amps. I've owned three, working my way up to the H30's in fully balanced mono blocks. I recently sent back a pair of $70,000 (CDN) BAT REX 3 Tube mono blocks as they provided not an iota of sound improvement over the H30s ($27,000 CDN for the pair). My manta has become "only shop where they have a 100% no questions asked return policy" Good luck with your quest.
I was also a Benchmark AHB 2 owner for 3 years. Excellent amp for the price but I too found a slight hardness in the lower treble around 2k-3k Hz. Also the overall sound was not as relaxed and laid back as I liked. My goal in replacing it was for a musical and open sounding amp with refined highs, neutral midrange and solid bass. It came down to Bryston 4b3 and Accuphase P4600. Once I heard the Accuphase’s new amp I was sold. Beautifully musical, tight bass response, non fatiguing with a refined extended high end and enough detail to make the music sound real.
Fortune cookie say’ "One does not see what is in front of their eyes, one sees what is behind them". Same holds true for what a person hears. We all hear what we want to hear rather than what sound is created. That also accounts for why measurements don't tell the whole story.
Comes down to design. In simple terms, if the component has any filtering of the AC then you in general will get more details and a blacker background - think AC filter chokes. They power supply caps can make things sound like mush or can have speed and clarity. Same goes for resistors. Mills, Amtrans, Audio Note non-magnetic, etc. That is why upgrades can alter and change the sound tailored to your liking. No to mention the ability of the transformer to offer top to bottom impact on the sound of a system.
You all have to begin to look under the hood and see what is going on and learn. It is not hard to learn what makes sound do what it does.
You did not mention $$ budget , there are many great amplifiers if money is
no object ,being into Audio for decades ,owning a Audiostore for a decade
and semi retired now travel to many audio get togethers and have heard most equipment that's brought into the U.S and many shoot outs between components of all types. Having owned 6 figure audio systems in the past, Now I seek out the best sounding products for the least amount of monies ,that is much harder to achieve and have found a bunch of equipment for all types of taste .System, synergies is the most important part in building a solid audio system . You are only as strong as your weakest link in the chain. Many people over look more things then they think is Relevant .1 qiuick examples from your-router- modem combo any wall wart in the audio chain is destroying the quality of your music- pure garbage , I put a Linear Tube Audio LPS power supply to the router a Substantial improvement to the incoming signal $700 on Audiogon nice and clean . I also use a decent Ethernet hub current LHY sw8 hub , decent but could be much better $600, Ethernet cables atleast a few hundred $$ from router ,end point Ethernet cable most important . I use also a Denafrips reclocker I have a Hermes , in my wife’s the Iris 12th for little $$ 550, if on a budget totally cleans the incoming signal before going to your dac I use I2S cable which is the best for sonics , this is just for digital your source maybe the most important part of your music chain ,for you cannot make it better once the signal is compromised.
The Burmester family sound seems like it will satisfy your desire for clarity, detail, and resolution while maintaining a liquid, sweet midrange and treble and realistic timbre. Professional reviewers state it has the speed and bass of a solid state with the liquidity, imaging, and staging of tubes. I find it excels at leading edge transient response and decay as well as micro and macro dynamics, along with a low noise floor to produce excellent ambiance retrieval. Imaging is three dimensional with each instrument or performer in a defined space. Staging is wide and deep. Transformative change from the old Krell sound. I went with the 032 integrated. You should look at the 911 Mk 3 amp. The mono-blocks are over your $30k limit.
Maximum resolution and detail should NOT impair musicality. When it does, IME, it is because resolution and detail are confused with distortion.
IMO, to maximize resolution and detail without increasing distortion requires components of the highest quality. Naturally, manufacturers don't want to spend big bucks on 50 resistors at $10 each, and air gap capacitors at $100, so they only use these at the most critical points of the topology, if at all. So if you want that quality, be prepared to spend big big bucks or build it yourself.
You'll laugh, but here it goes: I recently picked up a pair of Fosi V3 Monos and after adding the Sparkos opamp, I heard some subtle things on some my test tracks that I'd not heard before. Or maybe hadn't noticed before.
Some amps I've had or still have: VTL monos, Cary 805s, Aleph 3, Aleph 2, AES SixPacs, Inspire triode, James Burges 2A3/45 and many more.
IMO, some of the newer, inexpensive gear are killin' it.
You did not mention $$ budget , there are many great amplifiers if money is no object ,being into Audio for decades ,owning a Audiostore for a decade and semi retired now travel to many audio get togethers and have heard most equipment that’s brought into the U.S and many shoot outs between components of all types. Having owned 6 figure audio systems in the past, Now I seek out the best sounding products for the least amount of monies ,that is much harder to achieve and have found a bunch of equipment for all types of taste .System, synergies is the most important part in building a solid audio system . You are only as strong as your weakest link in the chain. Many people over look more things then they think is Relevant
i don’t have a budget...well, actually, the limit may be around 30k or under this year, but, it can be anything next year. But, won’t be paying audio jewelry fluff price for stuff that doesn’t meet the requirement. I"ve heard some in the upper price tier that isn’t more detailed than at least one of my current amps. In other words, It can be ugly as sin, but, if it meets the detail requirement, I’ll take it.
I just wanna keep it simple. All else in the chain including the linestage being the same, what is a power amplifier change only that boosted perceived detail...I understand that there’s synergy and can tweak my way all day long into moving the needle back/forth for my personal taste.
I have heard/had some amps, but, just don’t have the ability to know what all’s out there or who came up with some new circuit, etc.
I tend to think of detail presentation as being more in the domain of the preamp. But yes I'm sure the amp also has a lot to say about it.
The two amps that I recall having the most detail were a Levinson ML-23 and a Counterpoint hybrid amp (can't remember the model number).
I'd still be using the Levinson if it hadn't cooked itself to death and wanted $3000 for refurb (I'll save that for my 6oth birthday). The Counterpoint had a lovely sound but I traded it in for something I was craving at the time.
Sometimes I think added detail gets fatiguing if it's really over-emphasis of treble. It takes me long term listening to know what I really enjoy.
Immathewj, I feel they are heavy! I have the 805B with an upgraded auto-bias option which I’ve not been able to find any info about anywhere.
To the best of my recollection, as I’ve not had them in my system for a while, they offer a very robust and full sound. Smooth without any higher frequency etchiness or glare, soundstages well and is the kind of amp that draws you in for relaxed, extended listening. Some will argue that their 50 watts isn’t enough for many speakers but in my experience they drove everything I threw at them, to include the Maggie 1,7i’s in both of my small listening rooms (12x16 and 13x14).
The only drawbacks to me are that they are a bit cumbersome and heavy and will generate enough heat to warm my room a bit. Other than those two things, and the cost of replacement tubes, I think they are fantastic amps.
I’m an Audio Research fan. To me they have the very best imaging and detail. I’m also impressed with the Burmister solid state units. Since you have no budget next year my advice ia buy a set of Audio Research 330m monoblocks.
With that budget you have a lot of options! I don’t have experience with any class D options listed above, I have owned top models from Luxman, ML, Pass Labs, Krell and Accuphase. All were very good as I lean towards Class A with SS amplifiers. I know ARC reference gear has went to KT120, KT150 output tubes in their current models but I preferred the 6550 tubes in the older REF110 I use to use with my Quad ESL57’s(modded). I did experience the same feeling with the Benchmark Amps on a friend’s system where he ended up selling and finding a tube amplifier he preferred better. I ended up going to full tube system, 93db horn speakers with Miyajima OTL Mono’s, Triode Labs/Finale 300b Monday RSR mono’s, FIrst Watt amplifiers and never looked back.
Comes down to design. In simple terms, if the component has any filtering of the AC then you in general will get more details and a blacker background - think AC filter chokes. They power supply caps can make things sound like mush or can have speed and clarity. Same goes for resistors. Mills, Amtrans, Audio Note non-magnetic, etc. That is why upgrades can alter and change the sound tailored to your liking. No to mention the ability of the transformer to offer top to bottom impact on the sound of a system.
@bigkidz Theorycrafting vs successful execution... (there’s always a bigger gap than one might think).
Maximum resolution and detail should NOT impair musicality. When it does, IME, it is because resolution and detail are confused with distortion.
IMO, to maximize resolution and detail without increasing distortion requires components of the highest quality. Naturally, manufacturers don’t want to spend big bucks on 50 resistors at $10 each, and air gap capacitors at $100, so they only use these at the most critical points of the topology, if at all. So if you want that quality, be prepared to spend big big bucks or build it yourself.
DIY forever!
@terry9, You make a good point...I tinker with cheaper kits off aliexpress, etc, but, hesitant to try and go to town on some expensive piece... (Warranty goes out the window quickly, etc). It is always hard to meet the level of controls in place they have in some factories (some fab process ironed out) vs a guy tinkering in his garage.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, I replaced my Dayton Audio APA 150 amp that was used to power my nearfield computer speakers with a new Parasound Zamp and have found the sound quality from the Dayton was night and day superior! The Dayton was $200 and the Zamp was $300.
@audiodwebe , back in the ’90s I used to work with a guy who bought a pair of them. He described them as sounding three dimensional, but he was known for hyperbole and embellishment. I never did make it over to his place to listen to his system, but now I wish I would have. I know that Cary used to say that those amps would drive just about anything. (There have been some discussions as to whether all watts are created equal, but if what Cary said about the ability of those watts to drive any speakers, that would make me think that those were some pretty good watts.)
@deep_333 That is true. A factory has all sorts of QC in place, which only makes sense if you are making a bunch of them. For a short run, it's easier just to troubleshoot individual units.
But chassis volume is at a premium, and hand-work, like wiring a discrete volume control, is pretty much out of the question for a factory. Since the best components, especially caps, tend to be bigger, there is often no way to shoe-horn the best components into place.
So DIY can involve new chassis, and with that, new capabilities and controls which only you care about. It's very much a custom solution - but I thought that if President Carter can make his own furniture, I would try my hand at my own audio.
Streamer/software/ddc whatever -'> conducive transport for detail creation
dac ---> detail 'creation'
dac output stage, preamp --'> hopefully, it is preserved
cables --> hopefully, it is preserved
power amp --> higher probability of a possible bottleneck/choke point pethaps for letting it through, imo
i have some ways of dealing with stuff upstream of the poweramp, not that worried about the same.
The use case is not just for hifi listening. There is a 'hifi' speaker I've been recently using as a monitor as well, recording some things, etc...Hence,...a quest to mitigate any power amp bottleneck, w.r.t the above mentioned (could be in vain...could be not).
But, there have been some interesting suggestions thus far.
Musical Fidelity A1. Class A solid state. 35wpc claimed. I have the 2008 version; it is an integrated but I will often use it in HT mode to bypass as much of the integrated preamp circuitry as possible.
Having said that, I run it with any of 5 different sets of speakers, the best for detail being my Reference3A DeCapo I speakers.
Synergy is an important factor in speaker/amp combinations of course.
Runs too hot for the summers here in Sin City though. I tried placing wet rags on the top of the chassis which is also the heat sink, but it was too much trouble to keep the cloth sufficiently damp without dripping water into the electronics :)
Runs too hot for the summers here in Sin City though. I tried placing wet rags on the top of the chassis which is also the heat sink, but it was too much trouble to keep the cloth sufficiently damp without dripping water into the electronics :)
yeah, wet rags. it worked, but like I said too much hassle and risk.
I do have fans although not as sophisticated as that amp cooler. Anyway I decided that in the summers here I will only run Class D, they have gotten quite good.
In the winter I dust off my A1 and Transcendent T8-LN OTL and switch back and forth between them.
But I don't mind experimenting in the summer with the more efficient electronics. It is interesting and it is a good thing for the planet if we can figure it out.
Plus I very likely will be moving to a South Pacific island in the next year or two so I might as well find some hi-fi components that I like that will be practical in such an environment.
MSB makes some superb power amps as well as their DACs they're most well-known for. I've got an S-200 I bought a demo of about 10 or so years ago; that model is superb in most everything, but is long discontinued, but they've got more current models if you've got the budget....
@laoman Thanks for the suggestion, I hear some good things about this Mola Mola's main engineer. This might be worth an audit....
I may have to look at more oddball less heard of names, i think....Maybe MSB, "Bakoon", Hegel H30, etc...as well. I've had the more common big names on loan, or atleast a older model at some point... Gryphon, Boulder, AR, etc and they haven't produced that extra detail than my current amps, it's about in the same ballpark.
Worst case...I could wait for some rich guy to sell me a Aavik P-880 for 30k. I could probably talk him into thinking that some other 200k miracle amp is what he needs and the Aavik is beneath him!
The poster doesn't say what his speakers are or the room dimensions. I have Yamaha NS 5000's in a great room type space with a 13 foot listening distance. Using 500 watt B&O Ice Modules in Red Dragon mono block chassis. Details and cool running power the 600 watt rated Yamahas run very well on.
Engineers measure a device's efficiency in an inverse relationship to heat it produces. The more heat the less efficient. It has new relevance in the age of climate change and HVAC systems failing. Hence I recommend nicer Class D.
Mola Mola’s original engineer was Bruno P. Who is no longer with Mola Mola. He started Purifi a few years ago and they make the amp and speaker parts for others.
Not sure about the new guys designing at Mola Mola.
@deep_333 You should have a listen to the new SimAudio North Collection amps. These amps have a similar level of detail as the AHB2 but does not have any edge to it. I mentioned this before on this thread. I heard the 761 amp, and I agree with what the reviewers have been saying about it. The price range is $100k+ | $24k | $15k. I heard the $USD 15k one and that should be powerful enough for my Yamaha NS5000. A local dealer carries both and I may have a listen this Friday.
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