Pass INT-25 better than Wilsenton R8?

@carlsbad2 

 

+1

+1

totally apples and oranges

pickup truck vs miata... yes they are both cars and you buy both with money but comparing is rather silly as their applications are entirely different

what you have is a premier solid state amp versus a chi-fi budget tube amp, albeit a decent one at that... you should compare the willsenton with an audio research, lta or vac integrated and hear the difference

Two totally different amps with totally different sounds.  Yes, the Pass is a much better amp.  

However, I interpret what you say as a clear indication that you like tube amps better.  sell the pass and buy an $8000 tube amp and you will be much happier.

Jerry

Most of the people on this forum wouldn’t be able to form an opinion about a piece of gear without knowing the price.  Not many take an objective approach or blind test even when they know that they can’t be objective. It’s is what it is folks. The R8 is a fantastic amp, and it’s 25 watts of triode power are better, imo then the 25 watts of class A from Pass.  Burn in. Lol, take whatever amount of time you need to convince yourself the more expensive amp is better.  If that doesn’t work it’s gotta be the cables.  Or maybe it’s the DAC.  Another subjective money pit. Just keep throwing money at the issue until you are temporarily satisfied. 

 

 

 

 

I currently own the Wilsenton R8 and a former INT 25 owner (for a good 2.5 years). I have them both mated  with a pair of Paradigm founders 100F. Vinyl duties are with a clearaudio concept turntable and streaming plus DAC duties are with a CA CXN V2 and Denafrips Pontus II. I did love the INT 25 while I had it and like what everybody said, a burn in time is required for the INT to open up more and lose a bit of its brightness. Warm up time is also needed (at least 30 min to an hour )for every listening session for the integrated amp to sound its best. I had the R8 simultaneously with INT at one point, for a period of time, and the R8 even with the stock tubes, is very impressive. Once I rolled all the tubes on the R8 to the PSVANE mkII variety , that pretty much convinced me that tube sound is what I’ve always been after. The highs are detailed yet not harsh and never fatiguing. Listening sessions have become day and night . Mid range is to die for. The bass is plenty and has a lot of weight and the PSVANE KT88 tubes brought speed and agility to the bottom end. Sound is very organize with vocals sounding very natural. It has a very engaging sound and just pulls you in . It has emotion and has that human touch to it. The R8 doesn’t need a warm up time to sound good. Even fresh from the box with the stock tubes, it sounded great to my ears. With the PSVANE tubes, it sounded better than the INT 25. I could never go back to solid state after getting a taste of the tube sound. I currently have an order in place for the Wilsenton r300B to put on a second system . The R8 runs all day and till late hours at night in our house , listening to different genres of music with all of them sounding good every time. If the Wilsenton R8 was made in the US and not directly sold from China Hi fi, it would cost (or be worth ) just as much as an INT 25 for it’s quality and performance. 

If you have to try very hard to discern the improvements after spending 3x the money, it's absolutely not worth it. 3x the price should be another league altogether, you should never have to wonder like this post.

Why no love for the R800i?

 

I have an R8. I’ve been in audio for 30 years. I’ve never had better sound. I’m driving Martin Logan Spires. I have all the headroom I need. Do I feel the need to sample anything else? Absolutely not. I’m very content. Vinyl is sublime. I have the luxury of sampling any tubes I choose. I go back in forth between the Svetlana Winged C EL34’s and the Tung Sol 6550’s. Bass is remarkable with the Tungsol’s . The Svetlana’s offer the finest Midrange. It’s a very plug and play amp that’s musical right out of the box. No 5 month break in period. The Pass won’t allow you to do that. $5k better? Absolutely not. And you can’t expect to go from a tube integrated to a SS amp and obtain sound worth comparing. All my opinion only. Good luck!

I have had several PL products over the last few years, INT-60, INT-250, and the INT-25. To me the PL pieces sound better if you leave them on 24 hours a day.

Of the three mentioned, the INT-60 sounded the best. All were used with the same speakers, wires, etc.

I'm wondering if I get the XA-25 and use my Belles Aria Integrated's pre- out into the XA-25...if that will sound as good as the INT-25.

well, the tubed r8 may be a great amp for the money... but within its (generous) power envelope, the xa25 is a great amp, period, with no qualifications...

I use an original version Schiit Freya with a newly acquired Pass XA25...both of 'em are virtually noiseless and sound astonishingly good (best I've heard in a home audio rig, ever...), and this combo is maybe $1,600 less expensive than an INT25. You have relatively sensitive speakers? You're in.

@avanti1960 that's a great example story about the "grilles off / going back on later" to help share differences with others of how sound truly changes from a brand new amp vs. a well broken in amp with 200-300hrs on it. Same story for past 20yrs with many of the pass amps, settling in, transformer warmup before doing critical listening.

i documented my xa25 journey from new to burn in in another forum.  

it sounded very good out of the box but became velvety smooth after accumulating hours.  

in fact in the beginning i had to put the speaker grilles back on to help augment the brighter top end.  after a few weeks running 14 hrs a day working from home the grilles came back off.  

this is not unusual for amy of the amplifiers i have owned.  

I must have a special XA25, because it does not NEED 1hr startup to sound good. Sounds great right away...probably sounds a lil better after 30mins or so...but nothing crazy.

I originally had a LTA Zotl 40 El34 Tube Amp...great amp...but the Pass XA25 in my system was better to my ears. Smoother and more refined.

+1 tablejockey….what a bunch of nonsense

$7500 still doesn't buy you something that sounds good right out of the box?

You mean you have to WAIT for it to supposedly sound "better?"

 

@travisg 

Many of us, myself included, read the reviews and get caught up in the hype. We expect “wow” moments. Unfortunately, that can make the journey longer towards satisfaction longer. I would forget trying to pick a part different elements of sound quality between the pass and your tube amp. Ask yourself if you are as musically engaged. Do you still get goosebumps moments? If not, I would move on.

When I bought my XA25, I was instructed to leave it on for 5 days playing music through it.  It does sound better if left on all the time.  The instructions say warm it up for 1 hour.  As long as the amp is in Class A, this amp sounds great.

This is my end game amp.  

Not only the Pass amp needs around 200hrs of break in, it also needs at least 1hr of warm up every time you turn it on to do some listening.
Give it a chance. Don’t think about trying to hear a $5,000 improvement. Just enjoy the music and you’ll be able to pick out subtle details and qualities you haven’t heard before. The refinements don’t always jump at you right away. 
Good luck!
 

@nayls02 Thank you for that most excellent response.  You certainly know the INT-25 and XA25 inside and out.  I have thought of buying one or the other for awhile now.  Time will tell.  Have a great day.

@travisg EL34 tubed amps can sound plush compared to a clean/transparent sounding solid state amplifier. Each with its own sound signature and type of presentation.

One other factor you’ll read about is people leaving their pass amps powered on anywhere from 4,8, to ~24hrs before doing any critical listening. Varying debates.

24hrs: Have you tried listening after your INT-25 has been powered on for a full twenty four hours, transformer, all toasty inside? Smoother sounding then?

 

I had the amp-only version, Pass XA-25, driving a 97db efficient speakers. There were certainly remarkable things about the amp, most notably imaging. But when I pushed it a bit I could hear distortion. It might have been clipping, but probably from when it went into AB mode. I couldn't live with it. 

I have a similar amp to the R-8 (Cayin CS-55a), I found it sounds much better with the KT-88 tubes. I am using Gold Lions right now. The sound is much more clear and detailed than with the EL34.

I have both the R8 and a new  INT25 hooked up in the same space and getting a better soundstage than R8 but will keep going back n forth and spend time listening to the changes over the first 0-300 hours. Connected to a pair of Dynaudio HS’s and have my original Tekton Impact Monitors nearby 

Well, I have the same pass amp and you need to allow time for burn it and also make sure you leave it on 24/7. If you are starting it up after being off (cold) and expecting good sound it is not going to happen. Also, that amp requires careful speaker pairing as well.  That being said, for the extra 5k you are also getting an heirloom piece that will last generations if properly cared for. Pass customer service is probably the best there is. I have a friend that sent them his 30+ year old Threshold amp to be checked and recapped. They got it all up to spec and replaced the caps and charged practically nothing to do it. He was not even the original owner of the amp. When you call Pass you get a real human that picks up and if you email them you will get a response from an engineer usually on the same day. They are incredible.

@travisg OK so enough time to evaluate. Sounds like it's underwhelming...

@gerrie You've heard every tube amp then...?

The Pass amps do take some break in time before sounding their best. The INT-25 is a lovely sounding amp but it does lack a little bit of "grunt" for want of a better word. I don't know the Wilentson amp but, based on listening to similarly specified tube amplfiers,  I could see how certain aspects of the sound might appeal relative to the Pass.

@smodtactical I wanted to try class A solid state. 

@infection It currently has been burning in around 500 hrs. I have listened around 24hrs. 

I also own a pair of XA-100.8 monos, and prefer the XA-25's single ended circuit topology, speed, timbre, & tonality. The XA-25 has no issues whatsoever powering my Magnepans & Quad ESL 2905's

@jetter 

The amp stages of the INT-25 and the XA-25 amplifiers share the same components & configuration. The INT-25 siphons ~25% of the power transformers output to run the pre amplifier section. I've owned both, fully broken in. For me the XA-25 paired with a Quicksilver (Duelund capped) tube line stage pre walks all over the INT-25.

Per Stereophile Measurements: "The INT-25's output power is specified as 25W into 8 ohms and 50W into 4 ohms, both equivalent to 14dBW, with a "class-A envelope" of 50W peak into 2, 4, or 8 ohm loads. With "clipping" defined as when the THD+noise reaches 1%, I found that the Pass Labs amplifier with both channels driven at 1kHz clipped at 60W into 8 ohms (17.8dBW, fig.4) and 98W into 4 ohms (16.9dBW, fig.5)"

Per Stereophile Measurements: "Pass Labs specifies the XA25's output power as 25Wpc into 8 ohms and 50Wpc into 4 ohms (both equivalent to 14dBW). However, as you can see in figs. 4 and 5, the amplifier exceeded its specified power output at the clipping point, which we define as when the THD+noise equals 1%. At that THD+N percentage the XA25 delivered 80Wpc into 8 ohms (19dBW) and 130Wpc into 4 ohms (18.1dBW)."

Pass beat evry tube! Speed is so important and pass have speed.

 

@travisg  How many hours had you been listening to the Pass before posting this thread?

@travisg Why did you go from tube to SS ? btw this is coming from a pass fan.

 

What I would have done from r8 is go to a used Jadis or VAC that is around $5-6k. Guessing that would be a big upgrade.

Comparing the prices on both won't be a fair comparison. The R8 is being sold direct from China, while Pass Labs has a dealer network. 

Secondly, break-in with Pass Labs is true. My F8 took 3 months to burn-in. After which, it's one of my favorite amps. My X150.8, about 1 month. 

I'm currently evaluating a Kinki EX-M7, its an amazing amp. I recommend auditioning one. 

 

 

I have a FirstWatt F8 amplifier, which has a similar power output rating. I tried an Emotiva PT-1 preamp. Not really bad, but too bright. I swapped in a Van Alstine Transcendence RB 10 tube preamp. Now the sound is excellent.

If you give the INT-25 time to settle in and like the result, you are done. If not, you could even try feeding the output of a tube preamp into an INT-25 line input.

 

The R8 is a fantastic amp for the money.  If you haven't tried different 6SL7 and 6SN7 tubes you might find those improve the sound even more.  NOS Sylvania tubes are a good place to start.  Personally, I was fond of the Gold Lion KT77's but after the sanctions on Russia their price has become absurd.  Also, if you are handy and decide to keep the R8 then upgrading the 0.22uF and 0.33uF capacitors will yield even further improvements.

I haven't owned any Pass Labs but I have built 5 FirstWatt amps which are Nelson Pass designs and kind of a side project of his.  One of the things I have discovered listening to those as well as 7 other amps in the past 2 years is that different amps sound different and personal preference is a significant factor in determining what sounds better.  It is easy to imagine you just prefer the sound of the R8 over the sound of the INT-25

@travisg

i’ll be happy to buy that pass labs p-o-s from you at half price, any time you want to part with it, so long as it is in as new condition 😁

just ping me

Thx, sounds like I need let it marinade. 

I have a Willsenton R8 in my second system right now, and it's terrific. It's not better than the Atma-Sphere gear in my main rig, but it's perfect for the living room.

Everyone is correct that you need to give the Pass some break-in before you can make a rational judgment. I'm not familiar with the INT-25 but I've owned a couple of Pass clone amps and it should sound great. That doesn't mean you'll necessarily like it better than the R8, regardless of the price difference.

After a reasonable break-in period for the Pass, trust your ears.

Not directly related to OPs question, but does anyone definitively know if the amp section of the INT-25 is identical to the amp within the XA25?

As others suggested, give the amp minimum 300+ hours before you decide. I'm saying this from direct experience with the INT-25 which I still own and I think this is the best amp money can buy under 10k. I was also "meh" at the beginning and was not sure if I did make side or forward move (previously have owned Pathos Classic MK3). But after approx. month and a half the amp opened up like crazy. The transparency, instrument separation, soundstage all of this improved. You have a great amp in your hands, don't loose it :) 

Yes, make sure you have at least two or three hundred hours on it before deciding.

 

Also, yes, tube and solid state will have different character. Over the last 50 years I have slowly moved to all tube equipment. If you are not thrilled by the time your unit is broken in I would look at a Audion Research Vsi75. Spectacular sounding unit… detailed but beautiful midrange bloom and bass. 
 

I have owned high end Pass for nearly 40 years… including a preamp. while I love his excellent equipment I found the preamps a bit too sterile. 

Both amps have different sonic profiles. I am not surprised enjoyed the tube presentation more than solid state even though it is a renowned brand. If the pass is not broken in then you may wish to reconsider.

@travisg, As suggested above, your Pass INT-25 integrated amplifier needs ADDITIONAL break-in time before you can judge its sound quality.  I suggest you contact your retailer, or PASS LABS, to find out the number of hours required for break-in.  

@travisg If it is a brand new INT-25, and you do not have 200hrs on it yet, give it time and see if anything changes. I know this is the case with the amps up to ~300hrs.  I'm not as familiar what occurs on integrated units, others may chime in here to validate burn-in / break-in for you. Transformers, caps, and more, let it play.    

considering amps a vs b ... which better or worse....  always always depends on the situation, associated gear, listener taste

that been said. i would say 8 or 9 of 10 experienced audiophiles and music lovers asked to choose between the 2 would choose the pass unit - it is not a tubed unit but the build quality, pedigree of the designer and company behind the product, and outright sound quality would be superior in most circumstances