Open Reel Curious

Congratulations on your lottery winnings! 

Very, very expensive, and not without faults. I will also say that a respectable system is not good enough given the expense. That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Look at this discussion if you want answers to this question:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-dangerous-world-of-reel-to-reel-tape

For me, R2R tapes can sound better than any other format, albeit at considerable cost. For example when I play the Lyn Stanley London With A Twist, Live At Bernies people always say, "wow, sounds like live music".

Okay...two votes for "Run! Run far away!" And one for "Stay curious, but cautious?"

Yeah, I’ll keep researching, and thanks for the link, @mgattmch.  

For the record, my respectable system is Lumin U2 Mini, Denafrips Pontus 15th, Mc C53, Mc MC312, B&W 702 S3 (pr) , REL t/7x (pr).  Also have an MCT500 transport and a stock Dual CS 529 TT.  My real challenge is my room with a low ceiling.

Finding open reel pre-recorded tapes is the biggest challenge. Rare and expensive, and limited in available album titles. If you can score some blank tapes with which to make your own recordings, used Revox A77's can be had at a reasonable price (I have two, a Mk.III and Mk.IV, and a stash of Maxell 7" and 10" reels of blank tapes).

I was buying some records from a couple that asked if I would be interested in their TEAC reel-to-reel deck from the 1970’s. I heard it play and the price wasn’t bad.  I had been into reel-to-reel music during the 70’s, using a Sony deck.  I might have bought their deck, but in researching prices of tapes, the cost astounded me.  Open reel blank tapes that I used to buy for less than $10 are now about $50, and pre-recorded tapes were going for $150!  I just could not justify spending that kind of money when I can buy record albums and CD’s, or stream music, for a fraction of that.  I think R-to-R is a very niche market now.  

Flee while you can! Run far, far away!

I have a lot of fun with my open reel Teac.  I bought the deck refurbished for $400 and it has worked error free for years. I scour local auction sites and ebay for factory pre-recorded tapes (mainly 60’s and 70’s rock) and have ended up with a few dozen to play. I do zero home recording. Yes, it is interactive in that you need to keep the tape heads clean, and the rollers clean, but otherwise it is no harder than putting on an LP.  
 

Occasionally there is some splicing involved but I’ve been fortunate in that most of the tapes I’ve bought haven’t really needed the musical sections spliced in any way but I have spliced leader onto the beginning of the tape.

The Good:

The sound is close to unbeatable with the right machine and tape

A good tape deck isn't really expensive

The Bad:

After hearing it returning to a lesser medium is difficult

A great tape deck is expensive

Great prerecorded tapes are expensive ($300 ++)

I decided to not have a tape deck because of the expense of the software.

Curious about where you live.  I am from Detroit originally and live in Chicago.

  In Bucktown there was a shop that had a R2R prominently displayed about a year go.  Ann Arbor had a very HE store that might be worth checking.  At the moment I can’t recall the name of either place, I’ll have to dig a bit

https://muse.audio A2

deciBEL in Chicago 

Here's a great source for refurbished vintage R2R's at reasonable rprices.

I have a Revox B77 they sold me.  Flawless.  I "borrow" records and CD's and record them.  

https://reeltoreeltech.com

@mahler123 are you thinking of Paragon west of town on Jackson Road?

The pre-recorded tapes that will be much better sounding than other formats are very expensive and the selection of music is also very limited.  Playing R2R tapes is NOT just as easy as playing records unless you have some strange problems with records.  It will not be a primary source component for any serious music listener.  That is not to say that it cannot be a fun bonus thing to play with.

Reconditioning machines for the long run can be quite a process.  Even if all the transport parts are fine or reconditioned, there are a lot of other parts that might best be replaced.  I know the owner and the service person for a really nice Technics RS1500 machine that had crappy Panasonic electrolytic caps that started to go bad (the electrolyte is corrosive and destroys board traces if they leak).  The technician replaced 134 caps in that one machine.  I think the technician charged four hours of work (I would have had to charge four years myself).  I went to CapitalAudiofest with the owner of that machine and he lugged around a 15 ips pre-recorded tape of Bartok's String Quartets; we found one exhibitor showing a new model of tape player that is now on the market (can't remember the brand) and he was wiling to play the tape.  That tape cleared the room very quickly. 

Back in the day, when I was in high school..'72, I took out a $3000 loan to buy a stereo. I might have been a drug-addeled 16 yr-old, but I had my priorities straight.(I was working near full time in high school) My mom co-signed the note and I went off to buy a McIntosh 6100 integrated($600), a pair of Klipsch LaScalas($1050 unfinished), and a Tandberg 9200($1150) R2R. Cables back then..ha!..16ga lamp cord from the hardware store for about 7 cents a foot. I borrowed friends albums and recorded a ton, a ton of Maxell tapes.  Needless to say, the Tandberg, was my main source.  I still have the Mac.  The LaScalas are long gone, but I still have the Tandberg. I went through three sets of heads on it.  The last pair wore out decades ago and it sits in the basement, stored well.  I don't know what to do with it.  I think I checked on new heads like..30 years ago, and I found a pair for $800. I didn't bite.  So it sits. 

Gotta say, 60 watts from the Mac into LaScalas, in a 12x20 room, with some good hash..you could "..break on through to the other side.."

The Tandberg was a great source though.  I find it..interesting..that people are starting to get re-interested in R2R. I attended the Tampa Audio Show and saw a couple there..hmmp.

I looked at it a couple years ago and came to a couple/few of conclusions; If you do not already have many prerecorded tapes it is probably not worth it. New prerecorded tapes are silly money (think $200 each and up) and unless you’re quite wealthy not worth it. And tape machines need significant maintenance from time to time and every tape you play need to be aligned to that machine. used blank reals are $200 up and considering not many new tapes come with reals that adds up. And the used tape machines are getting old and do need significant updating.

@mattsca, if streaming is your primary source open reel will blow you away especially if you hear high speed tape. once you hear tape going back to streaming is akin to returning to AM radio. 

But as others have mentioned, its not for the faint of heart. For most audiophiles hearing a high speed tape is akin to taking a magic elixir. Once you hear it you will want more of it. Would suggest you take a pass on the consumer level decks and look for something like an Otari 5050 MK2 or newer, or a high speed B77, or a Technics 1500. Above that you can get into the Studer 810, Otari MTR-12, Somy APR 5000 series or Ampex ATR-102.  I have 7 decks so have jumped in with both feet and a bunch of wallets. 

In the early days of my audio journey I spent time with a Pioneer 10.5” RtR ans a Sony of similar quality. We recorded albums and live radio broadcasts of concerts by the likes of The Dead, The Wailers, Little Feat, Robert Palmer…that were pretty high quality. Now, I can get on Tidal and create playlists, find those same broadcasts, and do it on the cheap. Open reel is fantastic, but obsolete. 

Hello mattsca. I am an open reel enthusiast. I'm into it mainly because of my age (68) and my manner of collecting music. I buy everything of whatever artist I like. Historically that meant reel to reel. I have several hundred studio quality original master tapes. I don't play these tapes back through my main system. I have three reel to reel decks. A Technics 1506. A Sony TC850 and a Teac X2000M. What these machines have in common is they all have 1/4 and 1/2 track heads and they play back at 15 IPS. The 1506 deck also plays back at three speeds making it the most versatile. These decks were all top of the line at the time of their release. I transfer the tapes into a computer with a studio grade sound card. Most of the tapes that I own are too fragile to use for regular play back. If you're considering getting into reel to reel you need to consider what tape you are going to buy. It is a GREAT time to get into it depending on what genre of music you listen to. Right now on EBay a guy is selling studio master tapes for $40.00 each! I bought several from him. I love Mason Williams music. I bought the studio master tape from his 1963 LP "More Hootenanny". I was thrilled to get it. I needed to stop the deck after each song to clean the heads and tape path. It's a pain in the neck. It's worth it to me as I'll never hear these songs in pristine studio quality otherwise. Just some more things to consider. Also, machines of 1980's vintage will need updating and regular maintenance. I enjoy it all immensely! Good luck. Joe

@Mahler123.  Probably Paragon Audio on Jackson Rd.

Here is a list of R2R pre-recorded tapes:

https://thereeltoreelrambler.com/resources/where-to-buy-music-on-tape/

I still maintain a 15ips 2T tape copied from the original master can be the ultimate in terms of SQ, albeit at a vey high cost. One of my favorite sources of R2R tapes is Acoustic Sounds:

https://store.acousticsounds.com/s/462?x=y&banner_id=317

There tapes, copied from the original master (or copy of), can sound about as good as it gets.

In addition to a Revox PR99 Mk2 I also stream from an Aurender N10 and play records on a high end TT (Michell Engineering GyroDec, SME IV and Clearaudio Maestro V2 Ebony MM cartridge). A good R2R tape is often far superior to streaming or an LP in terms of SQ.

I purchased a NOS Revox A77 4 track many years ago, only a display piece at this point. Why? While I powered it up and listened when first received, the cost and hassle of replacing caps or entire boards is one thing, cost of software another, finally I already have nice vinyl and streaming setups. I hardly listen to my vinyl as it is, high end streaming sound quality doesn't have to play second fiddle to fine analog sources.

+1 @fa8362 

I "borrow" records and CD's and record them.

This may be a stupid question: surely a home recorded R2R tape of an LP or a CD cannot sound any better than the source material? Which makes me ask what the point is? I can see that buying pre-recorded tapes, or recording a live performance (if done competently) would be advantageous, but not copying an LP.

Not stupid. The reason is he is borrowing them so free music but for the cost of tape. 

The reason is he is borrowing them so free music but for the cost of tape.

@dishman442 

Maybe that made sense in the 70s, but now (a) blank tape costs more than the LP being recorded on it, and (b) music is (almost) free to stream anyway.

So since financial gain isn’t the reason, what is? Good question @dogberry asked. Maybe @jemmer01 will chime in 

Since you asked, 

I had 30 or so blank reels from way back when, all still in shrink wrap.  I also recorded over some less than stellar recordings from the past.  I now have about 65 reels full of music. Many I'm sure are not currently available.

The speed at which you record impacts the cost, and comparing an analog to analog recording to streaming is ludicrous. Besides, you well know the cost of gear plus subscription makes streaming far from cheap.  Jammer01 has archived a ton of analog music, and as he says, many are now unavailable. Please modify your responses to be more respectful. This is a discussion forum, not a competition. 

No disrespect intended, nor, I think, given.

I was at the recent THE SHOW and I took that chance to listen to Reel to Reel

Well, I want one !! but my wallet said, no you can't.

growing up with Reel to Reels and TT in the 60 and 70s, this is nostalgia but at a higher level. With today's materials and technology, Reel to Reel is at a much higher level, BUT so is the price. Even if you can afford the deck, the software is 1) hard to find 2) there are not a lot of Artist recorded on that format 3) The tape itself is expensive. I cannot comment on mediocre gear as i have not heard it. All I can say is that what I heard in the show (Revox and Tanberg) is a dream to own. it's musicality and details are extra ordinary, spectacular tone and PRAT and that is from a show demo. How much more if that is in your listening room!

If you have the resources to tune up these decks, I believe you can get some of these decks off eBay and have a resource who knows to work on these decks and bring it up to snuff. an example is a Revox B-77. But after you get all these done, you still need to source out software and there is not a whole lot out there, unless you are happy with whatever is just available

As for me, I will pass. 

This is where I purchased my fully rebuilt and upgraded Revox PR99 Mk11 deck:

https://www.techtrader.ch

Shipping cost from Switzerland to the USA was reasonable and they do a great job packaging to avoid damage in transportation.

The last time I went to AXPONA, Krell were demonstrating using R2R and the sound was best in show IMHO, using a +50 year old Dean Martin tape!

Using a reel to reel deck to preserve rare vinyl on tape is certainly a reasonable use of the technology, especially when one wishes to avoid the AD conversion inherent to ripping.

Asking a question of whether / how dubbing vinyl to tape might affect SQ also seemed reasonable.

@dishman442 it's okay to be upset, but indicating why and at whom always helps everyone understand where you're coming from.

A few years back l bought an Akai GX-220D three motor, 4 track three head auto-reverse on impulse from eBay £79

Recapped and with no additional maintenance needed it is now in good shape. Bought 12 new and some used Agfa 7” tapes from one guy for £30 + P&P again from eBay. Soon up and running for £200 all in. I was so impressed (only had a Grundig mono R to R in my teens) I spent a little more on about 10 pre-recorded 3 3/4 and 7 1/2 ips tapes for good measure.

l can’t put my finger on it but 7 1/2 ips (no Dolby) there’s just something about that sound. Yes it’s of novelty value, l do not play around with it often, but it adds some razzamataz to the music.

For sure; reel to reel is something us baby boomers sort of got sucked into; high end on tape formats that were better than 8 track or cassette.  So as a young 20 something i bought a Pioneer RT909; it was cool; ok; and groovy....got rid of it to someone who liked it more than me..Bought a nice Teac deck; model excapes me but i just spent a grand on it to recondition it...got it back, plugged it in; and it's sat right there on the audio stand for nine months now...i love having this audio antique there; along with my Marantz 5420 cassette deck....but really, not motivated to record yet....but wow, those two units look cool sitting there; albeit they are both over 40 years old....but, maybe it gets to be fun on rainy days once i retire....who knows..

I have an Otari 5050 mkll for about 40 years now. Before that I had the Pioneer top model in the 70s. Last year I picked up a Pioneer 707 to backup the original 7.5 reels that I have purchased. I have 4 TT, 2 in my main system. A Technics GAE with an Ortho Cadenza Black, & a EMT 948 with the TD-MRB cart on that. Both tables pull all the music out from the groves that have been recorded on them.

Now the original recording from the 60s & 70s on the Reels, sound much better then the original pressing of Lps that I have. One would have to be cautious when buying original tapes because of how they were stored & of the person selling, stating they have no way of testing the tape before hand. e.g. (splices & blank spots)

I have made a couple of visits to United Home Audio UHA), a company that specializes in refurbishing and making their own improved electronics for R2R machines.  The most interesting demonstration involve playing a record on a very high end vinyl set up and comparing the sound to a tape recording of that same vinyl setup playing that record.  The UHA folks think that the R2R copy sounds better than the vinyl original.  I did not agree (the vinyl original sounded a bit more dynamic) but I can see why others might prefer the R2R version which was very open and airy sounding with a pleasant relaxed quality to the sound.  Of course that means the recording altered the sound, but arguably, it improves the sound.  In any case, I enjoyed the R2R sound a lot.  Since that visit UHA has gone much deeper into improving the electronics of refurbished machines; top models approach six figures.

This reminds me of an interview a magazine presented of three recording engineers.  All three agreed that high resolution digital recordings sound much closer to the sound of live microphone feeds than do the analogue R2R recording when doing instantaneous comparisons.  But, all three agreed that they liked the sound of the R2R recording more than the digital version.

My mother bought me a 99 dollar Radio Shack R to R...in the 60s...I loved recording and making tapes.I belonged to Columbua house R to R tape club...I still have them..Don't have the tape deck.I do have 2 teac decks 

I grew up listening to Capriccio Italien on a tubed Tandberg R2R through VOT’s and it would move you deeply. I own 2 Sony’s, a 756-2 (1/2 track) and a 765 1/4 track. Both record and play at 15 ips. even though I never use that speed.

I have old 2 track tapes from the 40’s that sound incredible that were found on ebay. You can still find an occasional sealed tape which can be expensive depending on the artist, usually the 1/4 tracks. There is a sealed Beatles 7.5 ips for a cool 1000 on that site now.

I use mine to create a "my tape" and record my favorite songs to listen to over and over if I choose to. It sounds as good as the vinyl and I don’t wear out my vinyl and needles (which can cost a fortune). The heads for the Sony’s last a looong time.

Cheers

Tape machines are obsolete technology.   Simple as that.  What did you think you were going to be using one for? Commercially pre-recorded tapes are hard to find, and are not as good as youʻd like.  They are dubbed at 2x speed.

I ran a Revox A77 for 30 years doing location recording.  My $150 Tascam portable digital recorder stomps all over it.  I ***GAVE*** the Revox away.

Spend your money elsewhere.  Buy concert tickets.

As above…people who do it are intrigued by the old tech, as with the users of old HMV Gramophones.

By the way, Ken Kessler (long time equipment reviewer at the UK magazine Hi-Fi News & Record Review) has been writing a column for the PS Audio online Copper Magazine, in which for quite a while now he has been focusing on reel-to-reel machines and tapes. The mag is free, and is well worth checking out.

Ryan M. O’Connor

Founder - 917.488.4664

www.reeltoreelhaven.com

roc@reeltoreelhaven.com
 

Ryan may help. My advice is jump in to RTR, but do so when you’ve optimized your system, room, and listening habits. I listen to my Studer A810 daily — often over the corresponding album. 

RTR is fun but if you think vinyl is fiddly, it's a cakewalk comparatively.

After retiring from my job as a symphony musician and embarking on a new one as a recording engineer I bought two high end Reel2Reel tape decks manufactured by AEG Telefunken, an M20 and an M21.  These were the decks used by German radio for broadcast purposes.  My understanding was that they were totally reconditioned units but to me showed zero signs of use. Shortly after my purchase, digital recording was becoming more popular and clients were off put when I said their recording project would be done in the analogue format and so I quite reluctantly acquired the digital equipment required to satisfy their demands. The few live recordings I did with those machines are the best sounding of my entire 30 year output.  The decks were so unwieldy that I fit them onto folding handcarts that doubled as a base so that I could cart them from job to job. They operated at 7 1/2 IPS and 15 IPS.  A 10 1/2" reel of professional quality tape at the time was about $35 and a typical job required two reels for an expenditure of $70.  When I went to using a DAT machine the software cost was about $10 and even later when recording directly to CDs the cost dropped to about $2.50 for an "archival" disc.  I eventually recorded directly to a computer hard drive and used CDs as a backup precaution.  After all those iterations I still think the best sound I ever achieved was with those AEG Telefunken decks.  On one occasion I was visited by the concertmaster of a major symphony orchestra [with great ears] who couldn't believe that a master tape I played for him was analogue and recorded at 7.5 IPS to boot !  I also own a Revox A77 deck, an Otari MX5050, a Tandberg 10XD and several other Tandberg decks of early vintage.  All are excellent decks but not one of them compares to either of the AEG decks.  When everything is "right" the experience of hearing a master tape on a top notch Reel2Reel machine played over a top notch system is beyond unbelievable.  However, it is not for the faint-hearted in regards to what is required of the operator. "Be prepared" ---- [ an old Boy Scout motto !]

20 years ago my brother in law mother passed.  She was a real hoarder and emptying her home was quite an ordeal.  They came upon an old R2R that apparently had belonged to her brother and was in the attic for at least 20 years and a few tapes.  I was prevailed upon to take it.  I tried cleaning and repairing it.  I put one of the tapes in and about one minute in, after sounding terribly distorted, the tape broke and little shredded bits were in various parts of the R2R. 
 

I guess I am just recounting this as a precautionary tale.