My rant; we don't know what we don't know

Fortunately I do know what you don't know. Phew! That was a close one. 

The Dunning-Kruger effect is as active in this forum as it is in the rest of life. You have to ferret out what comments you believe an find helpful, but I agree you have to listen and, based on personal experience, decide for yourself.  I know from personal experience that, with good speakers, amps make a huge difference. 

+1 Definitely. Good sound is available to anyone but you wont find it on the merry-go-round. The merry-go-round is just a reflection of a psychological need and nothing to do with the pursuit of high fidelity. There is a wonderful Agoner that went through about 50 high end speakers and amps and cables in a few years and is now struggling with headaches with Magico speakers that others would die for. This person is about as lost on the merry-go-round as it gets - fulfilling what has become a psychosis that cant ever be sated.

One of the most common posts on this site goes like this:  My system sounds fantastic, but I want to change it.  Apparently, people just don't when to leave well enough alone.

Happiness is that moment before you need more happiness.

And that quote is from someone who is always closing.

It's a neurosis or a compulsion disguised as a hobby. But it's more fun than scratching eczema.  And there are those magic random moments when your system emits pure bliss for just a couple songs.

Nice rant.  A tad extreme perhaps but on target in general.

In general I find much to agree with in your observations and in particular I get very concerned as you do with those who constantly pursue major component (amp, source, speaker etc) changes in search of some elusive nirvana. 

The truth is it takes months (years even) to optimize a system around any component change. Synergy in everything is key and dropping a new component in will completely disrupt what you have before. Sure you'll hear differences but until you've spent many hours listening, adjusting and maybe even changing supporting tweaks how do you know you have the measure of the new component?

For this reason take any review with a pinch of salt -- especially if you are not familiar with their room and supporting accessories. 

For example in my case it's taken me more than five years to begin to understand how to set up and get the most from my speakers and I'm still not certain they don't have more to give. With each adjustment in my system I need to make changes elsewhere as I realize each compromise I'd been making to ameliorate a prior euphony now needs to be unwound.

Truly this is a process of constant experimentation and many small steps -- which is what I think makes it most enjoyable for many of us 

Let's not broad-brush here. Those who post: "Brand X speaker owners: what amp works for you?" are inviting experience opinions which are not by definition baseless. But for someone to jump in who doesn't know those speakers or amplifiers and spew a rant of what you should really really be listening to... well, I hear ya.

In general, I agree with you.  I'm old and have been in or around this industry for 35 years.  Alooooong time ago I learned that once you enter the "state of the art" territory,  gear sounds more alike than different and in extreme high end,  you are always splitting hairs.  It kills me that one guy says that one piece just "blew away" another very fine piece of gear, when in reality there was the slightest difference in how one presented music from the other or a sight difference in midbass warmth ect.  I understand also what you say about biased opinions.... I've been speaker building for 39 years now,  I understand speakers.  It kills me to give solid advice to someone and then I read comment after comment of absolutely terrible advice and many times flat out wrong. Misguided pablum I think you called it.  Rather than getting into arguments,  I typically just bow out, but I find it aggravating.  I don't mind different opinions or perspective at all,  but you need to at least be giving correct info. As you say,  it really happens in every forum category.

Fsonics,

Why do I post? Over 30 years in the trenches actual experience, system matching, system setup, comparitive anaylsis.

My company has one of the largest collections of A/V gear in the NY Tri state area, because people generally want different things.

The one brand is perfect for everyone mentality in our opinion is severely limited.

That is for example why we sell three reference speakers, Legacy Aeris, Paradigm Persona, KEF Blades, you know what they are all amazing and all different.

System setup is just that matching and figuring out what matches well with what other stuff, when many times on these forums people don’t listen to some of what we tell them I just cringe.

Way too many posters with a thumbs up in agreement without asking if product x will work in customers room with matching equipment etc.

Too many hobbists that do not really offer any good advice.

Sometimes all you need to do is just change a set of cables or add a power conditioner or add a vibration base. Simple things.

The devil is in the details and figuring out synergy.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

I agree in principal with what the OP has posted. How true it is that the room itself and all other seemingly insignificant details do matter.

I think we could all agree, however, that "It’s an obsession, but it’s pleasing".

EDIT:

Would like to include a Donald Rumsfeld quote as it seems apropos (to the thread title).

"Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. ... But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know."

Uh, I don’t think ANYONE would say the room is an insignificant detail.

Obsessive but it’s pleasing. That’s an interesting phrase considering it applies to opioid addiction, gambling addiction, alcoholism, workaholism, and a host of other things.

I get what the op is saying, however, people's hearing changes. People's taste changes. People move to different homes. People rearrange rooms...on and on. Why get a new car when the one I have is perfectly fine........Because I want to. 

fsonicsmith

... If you have a good amp or preamp and you feel the itch to upgrade, chances are, again, 98%, that the amp or preamp you presently have is not the impediment to your achievement of great sound ...

I'm not sure how you arrive at this figure, but I think it's dubious.

... today I would cringe at all that misguided pablum that I mostly regurgitated from things that I had read but did not really understand and things that I thought I knew that I now know I do not ...

So you assume that others are also posting pablum and regurgitating?

... if you rely upon others’ posts for finding just the right piece of gear that will suddenly part the Red Sea, spread the clouds and open up rays of sunlit audio-nirvana to suddenly shine it’s grace on your head and ears, you’re deluded.

Pardon me, but I think you're deluded if you're claiming that this is what others here have suggested. Certainly I've never seen such claims.

Those that want to claim that one amp is better than another or that one preamp is the answer to the search for great sound will, obviously, continue to post here with their unequivocal and yet baseless opinions ...

You're claiming to know that posts not even yet written are baseless?

I'll give you credit for the title of your thread: It's just a rant.

I always say, we don't know what we don't know, but the answers can always be discovered with our own ears. My other saying is, there are no absolutes in Audio, only preferences. 
I value the different audio forums. It's part of the hobby to me. I've made stupid comments over the years on Audiogon, but now I try to emphasize that my comments are about what I hear in my room, in the context of my system. I'm finally at a place that I know I'm blessed to have what I have. Once I'm done with cables, I'm done.

It's just the 25 year itch. Comes every five years or so. Just wait; in five more years you'll renounce all that you think you know now. 

After buying ,running a audio store and going from buying top A list and expecting system synergy to now getting great value and realizing parts quality on most commercial speakers,and electronics.is never near the best unless spending $$$. Myself  put top quality parts in components 
Resistors Capacitors bypass caps and others like Duelund quality caps
To Vishsy Naked resistors, Top wire  things like this  can transform your system 
And avoid having to  buy a new component for fat less then half the cost of new.

so?

I don't disagree with your points, but I think that small differences in sound can be very important.  One may not  even be able to name the difference, but that small difference can be the difference between sitting in front of your stereo bored and really enjoying it.

...once upon a time I was blissfully ignorant.

Then I learned that I was merely ignorant, and lost my bliss.

I've finally learned that I was ignorant to lose my bliss.

I also learned the meaning of 'conundrum'.....;)

@audioman58 -   EXACTLY!

@ fsonicsmith-   A good man recognizes his own limitations.  A smart man doesn't imagine everyone else to be likewise limited.

it ain't what ya don't know that will get ya!

its what you know that just ain't so that will get everytime!!


I have re-learned an enormity of information from this site alone across the years. Or from it been directed to other pertinent applicable resources for further education.

Being inflexible or closed minded. On any subject will disadvantage me eternally.

@Fsonicsmith

> 98% of what you read in this forum about the qualities of an amp or preamp will not help you obtain better sound.

Strike one..

> If you have a good amp or preamp and you feel the itch to upgrade, chances are, again, 98%, that the amp or preamp you presently have is not the impediment to your achievement of great sound.

Strike two.

> if you rely upon others’ posts for finding just the right piece of gear that will suddenly part the Red Sea

You’re Out!!. next batter.

If the word ONLY were in that last sentence, you may have just hit a single off an 0 – 2 count.

A political humorist once said about learning, education and knowledge, “some people learn by reading.

Some folks learn by paying attention to others and leaning on their wisdom

Then there are those who just have to pee on the electric fence.
Will Rodgers

IMO, audio is exactly like that.


As for jumping in a car and driving for hours, unless you are trying to get merely a glimpse of a loudspeaker system, and some inkling of what it can do in a context other than yours, you may be wasting a lot of gas.

Once there you left your room behind. Likely only one of the pieces if not speakers, being auditioned are in your cross hairs of desire, and the entire system then masks itself to what each component provides.

Yep. Drive a lot. Listen to stuff ya ain’t heard before. Then drive back. After all that you are Just about as clueless as you were before you gassed up the car regarding how one of those pieces will fit in your home, and system.

Even if you took something integral of your’s along. The input that unit provides is questionable too for it is out of context and we’re back to semi suppositions and conjecture.

It would have been better for the dealer to have sent the thingy to you instead of you going to it. If a definitive outcome was the goal in the first place.

But it is here we find how crucial and integral discussions about this or that piece can actually be.

My EXP so far, and it may well have been 100% luck, 100% of the time almost, each piece of audio hardware I replaced with decidedly more expensive but very similar audio hardware, improved the sound quality of the system. Invariably.

What has meant more to me in the decades I’ve been involved in music and audio is using the experiences of others and good judgement to try getting from one place to a point farther along the line.

The biggest impediment I have found is not the absence of knowledge at all.

Its what I know that just ain’t so! That gets me into trouble everytime.

Contemtpt prior to investigation. Biases. Prejudice. Thinking I know best in areas I know just enough to be dangerous.

Trial and error, a whole bunch of wrong turns if experienced and remembered equate to knowledge. A whole lot of knowledge adds up to wisdom. It often takes any number of failures to achieve a single success.


In as subjective a past time as is what we call high end audio, science often does not have the last word.

It don’t matter how the gear arrives in your home. By rep. by review. By anecdotal suggestion. Listening to a system just to see what one of its devices adds to the mix… or takes away from it, if a likewise unit replaces the former unit during the event.

It still has to get there. Get turned on and heard.

Its all about separating the wheat from the chaff. Well meant, ignorant insane, or arbitrary observations or insights as well as the hardware itself, all will require filtering.

There are a number of paths to our perception of the destination we would care to arrive at eventually.

It’s a long winding, very broad road. There’s plenty of room for geeks and freak shows, rest stops, ball parks, attractions of all kinds, detours, nonsense, creeks that seem to flow uphill, 12 feet tall ball of twine, zoos, ‘gator farms, foot long hot dogs, root beer floats, hazzords, and obstacles. Its what makes up the trip.

Usually, there is IMHO, no single path above all others to which everyone must adhere to achieve their own subjective victory , in this hobby or for that matter any other.

A few Exceptions might be firewalking. Contested divorces, Dancing with sharks, Sky diving, tax evasion, bull riding, sword swallowing, forgetting your significant other’s birthday, running with the bulls, running against the bulls, and lastly snake charming (or as it is referred to in the south, as getting a lawyer to take the case on extended re[payment terms).

unquestionably greater hazzzards exist in other hobbies..

… and that is why we chose this one, right? Right.

I know what I know today, but I don’t know what I will know tomorrow. I am an expert in everything today and an expert in nothing tomorrow.   The expert today refuses to acknowledge the expert of tomorrow.  I can’t know what I do not know. 

Folks would be much better off, generally speaking, if they believed in too much rather than too little. - PT Barnum

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. - Anonymous

Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract all the stuff you forgot from school. - Anonymous

"You may think you know what’s going on, Mr. Gettes, but believe me, you don’t." - Noah Cross, Chinatown

Many posting are looking for agreement that what they want to buy or like to do is right. Those offering reasonable well thought out replies based on actual experiences that do not agree will get ignored in favor of those that agree. In forum real experience doesn't mater its consensus that most are after. Do you agree or do you not? 

My take away from this thread is that most of the posts on this forum are worthless... In this instance, I think the OP hit the nail on the head.

johnk,

I agree to a certain extent on what you said. Where I differ is, no matter what reasonable well thought out reply based on experience is put forth, it's still only an opinion. The buyer must still use their own ears.
I've posted many times on Audiogon. If my thread is asking Audiogon  members for advice, I'm posting as a means to brainstorm and to receive options that I may not have thought of. I'm not asking for someone to tell me what to purchase. I've learned to feel comfortable with my own ears.

I've managed to get great sound in my listening spaces without reading Jim Smith's book, because my ears still work (I still get hired to mix live shows). I am one of the "over 50" people who the OP claims might have valid opinions, and can state with certainty that the elders in the audio geek world are often as full of crap as anybody else. Posting a screed about how rants, screeds, reviews, or opinions are a useless exercise is a useless exercise and sort of indicates a weird elitism that is, in its paradox of "don't trust posts," almost gonzo. Almost.

Who is Jim Smith? Am I at 800 posts yet? Almost...

I’m pretty sure he was the dude who married Pocahontas.

This is a valid rant.
There is only one principle to abide by - system synergy is all important.
So, listen to the component at home before committing to any purchase.

I think you are dealing with a fairly sophisticated, and somewhat skeptical, if not cynical, lot here; sure, there are postings proclaiming X is a life-changer, but I doubt that many here buy based on a posting. The anecdotal experience of many, though, can prove beneficial in sorting out synergies, and in better understanding a product, its support and its owner experience (read in context, not just in isolation that X is "the best.") I will often look at anecdotal comments on various record pressings, and the most helpful ones are those that compare the merits and weaknesses, side by side.
One can get off the merry-go-round at any time. My system is fairly mature, and I spend more money on records than on gear at this point. It’s a personal choice. Others may wish to continue pursuing an elusive "best" but I’m at a point where it’s different flavors, different strengths and weaknesses. I’ve heard a lot of systems over the years, some great, and am very happy with what I currently have, though I can appreciate and respect why others are still striving to obtain something better for themselves.

Tell me what speakers you choose and why and I'll tell you who you are. You might not want to listen, though.
Achieving synergy, whatever creates it, is not difficult. Finding the perfect match is on the other hand probably impossible. So when it is more than good enough it is better to just stop and take a break. Later, when you are ready for other speakers, for whatever reasons, start it all over again.
And I do listen to what others here say, I just rarely take it at the face value only. Some people are more open than most, what they post is usually more helpful. I don't think any of us has a bad sounding system and I do think that we envy those who can go very high.
I envy Bill's Lamm amps but not his front end and speakers because this would not be my choice, but Lamms could.

Others’ posts also often help to figure out what you are unlikely to like. At any price level above $10k used I can construct in my mind a few systems that I am certain enough I would like. Starting with speakers. Unless it is a masterpiece, but maybe even then, I know that I don’t want horn or panel speakers. I would want, whatever it is, deal with engineering driven companies. Usually, it is in essense a one man enterprise. So I will try to sufficiently figure out the man before even listening to the equipment. This narrows it down considerably. Sure, I can make a mistake both ways, so what ? Either I will later correct the mistake or will end up with something else. For me there is no irreplaceable equipment, perhaps only Studer decks have no real substitute. Well, Ampex perhaps.

Like the thread.  Many opinions and that is also great.  My experience came form building and repairing gear.  That helped me to understand how to design sound.  Also that allowed me to compare many components in my own system as I had to test them once I repaired or modified something.  That experience helped me to hear sound and evaluate components and decide what was to my liking to use in my system.  Most people have only been able to experience the typical manufactured component to other components so IMO that has only provided limited experience.  If you don't know how something can change the sound like a resistor, capacitor, choke, transformer, then you have a limited resource.  Even a chassis makes the sound different.  I also know that you can obtain pleasing sound cheaply but you can also have much better sound for a higher price.  As some have already mentioned, use your own ears, keep an open mind, and enjoy the music always first.  Happy Listening! 

Fortunately for me, I was exposed to an amp blind test early in my audiophile pursuit, so I never got on the upgrade train. It saved me a lot of money over the years. Later I experienced another blind test with the same results. And of course, all the professional and forum blind tests over the years have backed up that point, except one, which was still debatable. So now I pay absolutely no attention to subjective opinions on electronics. In fact, I wouldn't have even noticed this thread except it shows up in my emailed weekly wrap-up. I won't say there is no difference because I have not heard everything (although there was some high $$$ stuff in those blind tests) and I'm not an EE. But I will say, "If you didn't hear it blind, you didn't hear it."

Paragraphs are nice. 

My merry-go-round has been spinning so fast for the last 3 years, I'm motion sick. This was triggered by being blessed with a new, big listening area. Instead of moving my little system from it's little space, I built a second one from the ground up.

Everything I have tried has not worked. I just took down a drop ceiling that I thought would improve the sound in the basement and reduce the sound in the rest of the house. It did neither.

Still, I have to say it has been a most rewarding, exciting, and fun obsession. And I know My system is light years ahead of where I started.
I don't keep upgrading the same component over and over; but try to achieve as good a synergy as I can with a limited budget. That limitation means I am often buying used equipment and sometimes (rarely) I haven't been able to listen to it before committing. Very often I cannot actually compare candidate components side-by-side, let alone in my own space. One of the sources of data I use in my decision process is these forums. They have been a lot of help, especially since none of my friends or family enjoy this hobby. (most especially my darling wife.) So without access to the experience here I'd be out on an island. Do I filter what I read? You bet your a$$! But one gets to know who is genuinely trying to help and who just likes to get in the way.

Thanks to all the former!  I think my merry-go-round is almost stopped.

In ’02, ’03, ’04, etc., one could scarcely read a thread with more than a dozen posts without seeing someone say, “Everything matters.” So does everyone.

As with your system, how much it or they matter is the real question.

Spitballing ideas or attaining info on some new tech or gizmo has to be done somewhere. Somehow. If everyone takes what ever input or feedback as tainted either slightly or largely, by subjectivity then all will be well.

This includes dealers. Reviewers. Owners of likewise gear.

Remember too, there are folks who actually enjoy the same flavor ice cream. Like the same types of pies. Prefer their steak cooked the same way. Prefer tea with or without sweetner. With or without lemmon. So one can’t fully dismiss the fact of running into other people’s thoughts or preffs which are very similar or even identical to your own.

After all, we don’t all own entirely different pieces of equipment, do we?
Lots of Wilson, BW, KEF, and Sonus Faber speaker owners out there. Lots of Pass Labs, BAT, and Ayre users around. Loads of folks devoted to tube power. Analog only types abound. Strickly digital or mostly digital camps . are ever growing.

… and God forbid, everyone uses cables, although asking for input on wires is like spending two weeks with your in laws. At their rustic ultra rural outside plumbing only, so remote even cell phones don’t work and they have no TV but do have shortwave radio, mountain cabin.

I wouldn’t do it on a bet. UPS and FEDEX could never find it.

But I would respect their rights to live so fundamentally.

Knowing more about the person gains anyone more apt insight into the other person’s counsel. Reading only what is printed on Forum Pages is NOT how one should find out about another person. Way too often, blurbs, blogs, texts or emails simply do not always convey the true sentiment of the writer.

Wanna know what they really mean or meant? Ask them not someone else, not your friends, ask them. Its free. Simple. Takes little time at all. .

There’s plenty of folks trying to sell stuff via PM. Why not get to know someone the same way? They could wind up being an incredible source of experience, or just a new found friend you would not have had otherwise.

Lastly, if forums are such a source of irritation, little can be positively gleaned from them, serve little erstwhile purpose, why continue to involve yourself with them?

Lastly, if forums are such a source of irritation, little can be positively gleaned from them, serve little erstwhile purpose, why continue to involve yourself with them?

Obviously, to show everyone how enlightened one has become after 25 years.  The ultimate form of audiophile snobbery.

By far the best post in Audiogon's history.
Congratulations!

Late to the party as always, but I feel compelled to post!

Sonicsmith, I hope you felt better after the rant, but your reference of 25 years ago and your experience then(which you so easily cast aside now) may have been quite relevant.

The audio world was much different back then, in about 1992.  I don't believe audio forums really even existed, so I doubt you did any posting, but that's besides the point.  I've learned much from reading through countless posts, then experimenting with my own systems.

One develops a BS detector, much like when dealing with good and bad sales people.  One of my red flags are posters who see things in black and white only, who have a lot of emotion attached to their opinions, and who push their views with too much fervor.

It cracks me up that a guy with 3 posts declared this "by far the best post in Audiogons history" but perhaps it was. Sadly I tried reading it and gave up due to the lack of paragraphs. If your going to rant at least make it readable.

(1)

cleeds
914 posts

".....I’ll give you credit for the title of your thread: It’s just a rant...."

(2)
jond
2,464 posts
12-10-2017 5:34pm

" .... It cracks me up that a guy with 3 posts declared this "by far the best post in Audiogons history" ....... Sadly I tried reading it and gave up due to the lack of paragraphs. If your going to rant at least make it readable...."

+1 (emphasis added ) for  BOTH of these prior posts by Cleeds and Jond respectively.

Nailed it !!