Mid-fi tube vs high-end SS

The Benchmark AHB2 is the SS amp to get! $3K. Most transparent and lowest distortion SS amp today!

There you have it Jason has spoken. 

First off, I can't help on the specific amps you have and are considering.  That said, I think it would help you get some informed answers to know what speakers you use, and what you like and don't like about your current setup.

The degree of audio performance improvements with a new solid state amp you are hoping for is entirely dependent on the synergy (or lack of ) with your system as a whole. One new piece in the link may or may not be an improvement.

For example, in a prior system, my buddy asked to borrow my speakers at that prior time ( TOTEM FORESTs) paired with my quality build ss integrated amp . He took them home to test-drive them with his top-end CARY tube amp. 

In short, it was a huge disappointment and a step back in his system as a clear and not insignificant absence of system synergy.

Ignore the pricepoint hyperbole trap,  and rely on your personal audition(s) to drive your selection process. It is impossible to blindly recommend an amp brand or particular model for you with any assurance of an improvement for you, without a direct knowledge and experience with the rest of your system. 

Choose wisely.

"...how much improvement should I expect?"

"Improvement" is probably not the right word.  What you can be sure of is that a solid state amp will sound "different" than your current amp.  Whether or not that will be an improvement is a matter of personal taste. SS amps typically have better control of the bass, but behave differently when they clip (which is one of the reasons for the trend toward high power in SS amps.)  Or, you may find you miss that rich "tube sound" that so many tube aficionados love.

In short, pick a likely SS candidate that is available for a home trial and can be returned if you don't care for it and see what you think.

what efficiency speakers are you using?

contemplating less efficient speakers in the future?

What sound levels, how large a space?

Think 'prefered', not better.

IOW, I would expect to prefer the sound of tubes over sound of SS, unless not enough power.

Another thought is speakers that can be bi-amped, use SS for Bass only, keep tubes for mid/highs

My speakers are the Philharmonic BMR towers. 6-ohm 86 db. Easy to drive, confirmed by the designer. My tube amp drives it without a sweat.

I feel like the midrange on the BMR is too neutral. The designed voiced the speaker that way. My preference I want a little more richness to the mids and I'm getting that from the tubes. 

AHB2 is a no-go for me for 2 reasons. Price has gone up from 3k to $3,300 and also its weaknesses are things I value highly. 

Thank you everyone. 

I know you’ve done the tube "upgrade", but have you done much experimenting with other tubes? There are lots of subtle difference between tubes, and some not so subtle.  You may stumble into something you prefer that may not be the recommended upgrade, but it’s all very subjective.

@samureyex - still not sure why you are looking at switching to SS. If you like the sound you are getting from your tube amp but are just looking to raise the quality a bit, you could consider upgrading the decoupling capacitors. 

Your amp comes with pretty cheap CDE film caps (at least they aren't electrolytics). There are a LOT of options for caps that will likely improve (and certainly change) the sound.

I really like the copper foil caps from brands like Miflex and Jupiter, but you may not have adequate space for them - they are physically significantly larger than the CDE caps. 

A reasonably priced and sized option is the VCAP ODAM. These are very clean sounding, but are also very neutral which may or may not be what you are looking for. 

If you don't feel comfortable making this kind of modification yourself, I suspect you can find a local electronics repair shop that will do this for you at a modest cost. 

One manufacturer I can recommend is Ayre.

I own both Atmasphere and Ayre, and both sound very close to one another.-With the Ayre being a bit 'tighter' especially in the bass.

If you have been getting by with 55wpc, then an AX-7e would probably do the trick.-And, very available used.

I would also consider the Belles Aria Integrated.

bob

@jaytor  You had some very solid points. To answer your question, the main reason I'm wanting to buy a permanent SS amp is for its convenient. Tubes are getting real expensive to maintain and I want a SS for movies and gaming for my usage as well. 

I was curious to know the kinds of improvements I can get by dropping 4 grand into a new amp. Atm I'm quite happy with the sound of my tubes on all aspects, except for dynamics, but still the dynamics are good enough.

@knotscott  I don't know much about tubes but I've put a significant amount of time into some other tubes I should buy and that tubes I've been meaning to buy is the Tesla ef806s. Thank you. 

OP. some great recommendations here. I have a Qualiton X200 and there is zero lack of dynamics in this tube integrated, however is more $$$$. 

I do have a few SS integrated in my home and as of late I have been listening a lot to my Heed Elixir a 45W SS Class A integrated and I use while working in my office. For $1395.00 with its transcap technology it it sounds very tubey for a SS IA. I could live with this little thing, and it has an outstanding headphone section (better than the X200) and a MM Phone Pre (Heed Quasar). Built like a tank. 

Audition some likely SS and tube contenders and see what 'improvement' you hear.

@akg_ca   Agree your advice to OP.

I don't know the Van Alstine DVA 225, but my system uses his Transcendence 10RB preamp into a FirstWatt F8 (by Pass). With compatible speakers, the sound is musical (not "artificial") but not colored one way or the other.

It made me a believer in a good tube preamp but leave the power work to solid state. Nelson Pass uses FET transistors in his designs.

Do your Philharmonic BMR speakers have any association with Salk?

I guess it depends on what you mean by midfi and high end. I have a system consisting of a Schitt Freya + with some premium tubes and a Peachtree Audio Gan 400 amp running all balanced with Magnepan LRS + which will shortly be mounted on the Magnariser Mk7 stands.

I’d like to be helpful. It would be useful to know exactly your system. There is a place to put photos and your components under your user ID as your virtual system. This would help us a lot in helping you. The venue and all components matter.

Having said that and been working on pursuing the cutting edge for over fifty years. I would not be moving from tubed to solid start… I would move in reverse or simply upgrade in the tube arena. In general. You are going to get more natural and musical components when using tubed equipment. I stayed away from tube amps for decades thinking of inconvenience and cost that simply has not been there. I have over 40 tubes in my system and by a huge amount, it is the best my system has ever sounded, and after years have spent very little on tubes. 
 

I have to recommend that I’d you want really high quality sound, stick with tubes. Then make your decision.

It is truly  a matter of personal taste. I have both a hi end solid state  system  and a hi end tube based  system as well. After a lifetime  of solid state systems  that has ended in a mark levinson  Ayre  power pre. I feel I know a bit about the pros and cons of solid state systems  at or near the top. Having recently  developing  a tube system  of canary monoblocks  and a two box totally isolated by channel canary tube preamplifier  in many way I like that better. I do understand  you feeling that the running cost of tubes is much higher than a solid state system.  They are both very good but even though they are very much the same they are very different.  In short what I feel the difference  is the solid state system  feels like the performers are right in front of you. That is the system  that I have had a number of old men cry when they listened  to it. The sense of being there is very real. The tube system  doesn't  have that as much but it has beauty  in a way that the solid state cannot come close to. It is totally beautiful  rich  and the voices sound very wonderful.  I managed  to get some of that into.the solid state system  by using tubes in the front  end.  McIntosh  mr71, a sonic frontier  dac three, and an audio reseach  reference  phono stage.   But when you ask which is better that us personal  taste when it comes down to it. That is on the basis  that the systems  are on par with each other. 

Regards 

Being an audiophile is an art. It takes a lot of experience to get the most out of your system…matching this to that and that to this. I will say this…there are lots of great products out there. But they all have to perform in your room. If you can, learn to be an artist at getting the most out of room. Sometimes I walk into a friends house and I can sense how good it will sound…I sometimes get envious thinking how good my system would sound in that room…lol.

Just my way of saying don’t forget the biggest and most important component.
 

@knotscott  The 2 owners are friends, Dennis and Jim Salk. Quite a history between the 2 men. Some years ago Dennis made speakers and sold them for so cheap (high quality) but he made no money, actually lost money and overworked eventually he had to stop completely due to medical reason. Jim Salk then continued on making Dennis speakers to sell to people. Long story short, Dennis has bounced back and has started producing high-value speakers again. Even designed some new speakers for Salk recently around $16,000.

Thank you everyone for your inputs. I should've been clearer in my post. I am not moving away from tubes. Quite the opposite actually. I value my tube times so much that I just want a nice SS on the side for movies, gaming, daytime music listening, so that I could prolong the tubes life for music listening late into the night. Tubes are expensive, Quad KT170 for $550. But the NOS ones I wouldn't know where to get once they run out. 

There are some bangers SS amps at around $4k. The gato 150. The super high-value DVA M225. Frank said these monoblocks are the best amps he'd ever made in the 50 years of amp making. And the Schitt Tyrs. The Tyrs are new, not a lot of reviews but Schitt also said these are the best amps they have ever made. User experience reflects that. Imagine the Schitt Aegir but with way more power, and even better sounding. 

As you know, the BMRs will have some similarities in sound to some of the Salk models. Suggest you head over to the AC forum and do some reading on the Salk and VanAlstine threads. 

A pure class A tube amp would be under 20 watts in a Tube amp ,

50 watts pentode or ultralinear  , and$2k is just a starting point fora tube amplifiers 

One ofthe key elements is the transformers ,and chokes ,brand name like Lundahl 

that Ayon uses excellent C core type  for example is far better then , any Chinese amp like primaluna , they use torroid type which  no Highend company uses.

and inside the resistors,capacitors everything counts , I have had several Ayon  models theirSpirit 5 is ideal triode,or pentode ,even the tube sockets solid copper 

not cheap $3 brass type far better conductivity ,and machined aluminum cases,night and day better,less vibration then sheet metal ,ad microprocessor controlled per tube bias ,not Allpower tubes averaged out like most.tubes wear better and optimum bias,better sound and they are using the verygood kt150tubes.

when a tube goes bad it does not blow a transformer it goes into standby ,shows you the tube , just replace the tube ,hit there bias button and up and running .

yes abit more monies but very high quality from Austria. 

My Dennis Had tube amp is hardly "mid fi" except that it wasn't expensive, and I still listen to it from time to time but it was relegated to a resting spot by a Pass XA-25. That actually is one of the most transparent SS amps out there but it's 5 grand or so. Utterly worth it and there's nothing like it I know of.

Boulder 

Well for movies and gaming why not get a SS intrgrated such as the Parasound 23+ or or one from Music Fidelity  or... something around $2K.

@samureyex _ I agree with mesch, if your main focus with it is for movies and gaming, and what reads like from your post day time background listening maybe consider spending less on that amp; and using the excess funds towards your more dedicated music listening with your tube amp. As far as from where to purchase NOS tubes you can purchase from reputable places like : Vintage Tube Services, Brent Jessee, Upscale Audio and Tubemonger  to just name a few.

I had some speakers designed by Murphy for Salk (SS6M) and then I bought other speakers that are more like the BMR speakers you have now (with RAAL tweeter). Your speakers, by the way, seem like excellent ones and excellent values.

In my experience, the best sound was attained in both sets of speakers with lower power tubes -- KT77’s are the best, to my ear.

Your tube amp cannot run KT77s. That raises the possibility that you might get a different tube amp.

The question becomes, what does the impedance curve on those BMR speakers look like? If it’s mostly flat, you’re good with lower power tubes, I think.

As for SS, like @wolf_garcia I have a Pass XA-25 and it’s going in my casket with me. It’s unbelievably smooth, intimate, warm, great soundstage.

@hilde45 Yea, the bmr are excellent values. Low sensitivity (86) but easy to drive, mild impedance curves.

@mesch You made a great point and it relates to my question. I love tubes but I don’t require that sound for music. I also love the strengths of what SS bring to the table for music. I was hoping there was a SS I could buy that could match or exceed the muscality of my tube amp for music, while also doing HT and gaming as well. But then any decent power SS can do HT and gaming.

Well I guess nothing beats home trial. I’ve pretty much narrowed amps down to 3 choices. I like a detailed midrange, and an airy neutral or even slightly boosted highs.

My 3 choices are monoblocks DVA M225, Schitt Tyrs, and the integrated Gato 150. I could and should ditch the Gato but I’ve had a love-obsession with its beauty for the past few years. Home trialing is only realistic with the Gato, The Schitt Tyr is buy and be-done since it costs a lot to return. Unsure about DVA.

Edit: After looking around DVA does offer 30-day returns. Gotta pay shipping, brokerage fee and all that. The usuals. 

@audiman, "they use torroid type which  no Highend company uses"

My Rogers EH200Mk2 uses a giant toroid.  Can't imagine anyone saying it is not  "high end".

op, are you planning to use the same speakers and switch amps?  physically, or with a switch box?  Some issues with either of those plans.  I gave up on it.

you said you had inserted kt-170's.  Your amp does not appear to have been designed for those, did the manufacturer say that would work?  The transformers don't look large enough, and the bias circuit (cathode bias, I'd suspect) is unlikely to be correct for kt-170's.

If I was looking for an amp in that price I would look at Schiit Tyr and try to find a nice pre amp. The Gato is probably great too, a bit uncommon and I have not heard it. I have heard another Schiit amp.

Or the Moonriver Audio. 

@headphonedreams  Yea the Tyrs are in my top 3. DVA M225 + Tyrs + Gato 150

@lloydc  The good ol' plug and unplug. Physically. I'm a big believer of less is more. Regarding Kt170s, I honestly don't know if the transformers are big enough but the amp is massive and weighs 70lbs. The 4 transformers in my limited knowledge, is quite big. But anyway I talked to the designer and he said it's good, he even recommends the KT170s. 

@lloydc - I agree with your comment regarding toroidal transformers. They may be a bit more challenging to use in a tube amp due to their extended bandwidth (passes more AC mains noise) and sensitivity to DC (careful output stage balancing is required), but with the correct circuitry around them, they offer some nice advantages. 

Note that "high end" denotes quality and not necessarily a steep price. My Schiit Freya (original version) preamp has more flexibility relative to tube use (or not) and ins and outs than pretty much anything out there and consistently gets a "Class A" rating from a certain audio mag. Around a grand or so still, and it's also amazingly transparent. You can't even SEE these things...Too inexpensive for some to take seriously and that's their loss.

Total BS look at the Qualiton A50i. Also, Toroidal transformer and is fantastic sounding piece of kit. BTW most of the components are built in house. @audioman58 read up a little.

A pure class A tube amp would be under 20 watts in a Tube amp ,

50 watts pentode or ultralinear , and$2k is just a starting point fora tube amplifiers

One ofthe key elements is the transformers ,and chokes ,brand name like Lundahl

that Ayon uses excellent C core type for example is far better then , any Chinese amp like primaluna , they use torroid type which no Highend company uses.

and inside the resistors,capacitors everything counts , I have had several Ayon models theirSpirit 5 is ideal triode,or pentode ,even the tube sockets solid copper

not cheap $3 brass type far better conductivity ,and machined aluminum cases, night and day better, less vibration than sheet metal, ad microprocessor controlled per tube bias, not All power tubes averaged out like most. Tubes wear better and optimum bias, better sound and they are using the very good kt150tubes.

when a tube goes bad it does not blow a transformer it goes into standby ,shows you the tube , just replace the tube ,hit there bias button and up and running .

yes abit more monies but very high quality from Austria.

I tried tubes and went back to SS. I'd never go back to tubes.

@secretguy and I have done the opposite.  I like SS for the pool house, game room and shop. Listening to SS right now in my office class A. 

Only listen with tubes when doing critical listening in the evening. 

One man's food is another man poison. 

Why is any man eating another man poison? "Man poison again, damn." Pool house, game room...I compel all of the help including my valet to listen to mediocre systems, and in the evening they just avoid me...could be the tubes or maybe it's me...

There are now a bunch of amps the Coda Amplifier U.S.A retail before-discounts $6 k 

then class D   T&A from Germany is very good around $5k just a sample of the next tier  in quality best in class .

take a slight step up from mid fi to high value tube amps, e.g. the rogue audio cronus magnum integrated or atlas magnum and stereo 100 power amplifiers. these robust powerful tube amps have transparency, dynamics and refinement that cannot be topped by solid state amplifiers unless one spends thousands more and picks the right one. roll in some nos small signal tubes and you up the ante along with a sound stage that few solid state amps can match unless fronted by a very good tube preamplifier.  my experiences.  

Hello Sam, I’ve been in hifi audio for over 30 yrs and have heard so much nonsense from people,  I sometimes can’t believe what people write. Some important things I’ve discovered throughout the yrs. Your question about changing from a tube amp to SS can only be answered by knowing the rest of your system and why or exactly are you looking to improve in sound.  I personally have never found SS to sound better than a well designed tube amplifier in the areas of engagement and transparency.  I do find SS to be more accurate but it lacks the air and ultimate 3D dimensionality tubes give. I only use SS amps for systems that require it’s power. I’ve found that SS amps cannot sound warm and very transparent at the same time whereas tube amps can.  So, from a person as myself who has various systems setup in my home of very high quality components of both SS amps and tubes, my opinion would be to stick with your tube amplifier if it runs your speakers fine. If you have problems with power in your present system, you could try a Class A SS.   I run a pair of Class A SS mono block Threshold amps on my Electrostats speakers and even though the sound is very pure and transparent, I must admit, my 300b, EL34 and 805 power tube amps have something special in immediacy and engagement that SS do not have.  Why don’t you borrow of purchase a high quality Class A SS amp and do an AB comparison with your tube amp.  You should notice that the SS will sound more accurate which might lead you to believe it’s more transparent but take notice to which design engages you more and which draws you into the the music better. See which gives you a more 3D dimensional soundstage and which design throws the soundstage out further in the room, not just behind the speakers but out towards you and even behind your listening position.  I wish you a lot of luck in building a system that brings happiness to you. Throughout the years, I’ve learn the hard way that building  a great sounding system is not about spending a lot of money but about a lot of hard work and research and help. 

@lowtubes 

Why don’t you borrow of purchase a high quality Class A SS amp and do an AB comparison with your tube amp.  You should notice that the SS will sound more accurate which might lead you to believe it’s more transparent but take notice to which design engages you more and which draws you into the the music better. See which gives you a more 3D dimensional soundstage and which design throws the soundstage out further in the room, not just behind the speakers but out towards you and even behind your listening position.

This is exactly the kind of wise, experienced, helpful comment that keeps this forum vital and worth reading. Thank you, lowtubes!

I use the musical fidelity m6si best ss amp I’ve ever used. Go get one

@lowtubes  Ty for the thorough insights. Really. =)

jerryg123

2,798 posts

12-08-2022 at 02:56pm 

@secretguy and I have done the opposite.  I like SS for the pool house, game room and shop. Listening to SS right now in my office class A. 

Only listen with tubes when doing critical listening in the evening. 

One man's food is another man poison. 

Indeed. I will say that my SS reached deeper than my tubes did.

Not an issue here with the X200. 

86 db sensitivity @ 6 ohms is not the easiest load to drive. Especially if the speaker dips lower in certain frequency ranges. May want to acquire a SS amp that can haul the mail @ 4 ohms. 

You are doing the right thing moving to a solid state amp. Why not add a nice tube preamp if you must do tubes..Keep in mind that tubes are going to get harder to find as time goes on, especially since there are now two new strains of omicron viruses circulating The goverment will require again that everyone wears a mask.This is further going to raise havoc on supply and demand.

Tubes aren't getting harder to find as non-Russian tube manufacturers are ramping up more and more, and the Russian stuff is flowing again...note the guitar amp biz uses way more tubes than hifi ever has..."Vinyl is dead"...remember that?