Mid-fi tube vs high-end SS

You will hear an enormous difference in an SS amp at that budget.  Unfair comparison to your current rig. Perhaps buy a Benchmark off Amazon Prime (30 day return) & give that a try as first step.  Audition and enjoy!

Well, I skirt Boston when I visit my Mother and Brother in Maine. She will be 100 yrs old this coming Feb.

I appreciate the offer. How far in from 495/95 are you? Perhaps we could work out a short visit on the way up or down. 

Let's move to private messages.

@elliottbnewcombjr  I think you were talking to me about my speaker/amp and location? I live in Boston. It's an unlikely trek from NJ but if opportunity arises, I'd  to have you over and talk some audios and listening to whatever songs come to mind =)

This custom adjustable McIntosh unit is very interesting. Not for you, but others might find it tempting. 

Seems it is for BASS, either FLAT or boost, some or some more (not to cut bass)

 

review

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/mcintosh/mq-104.htm

 

I’m having fun looking on hifishark

DBX, rack mount, balanced connectors

 

This Sherwood starts at 16hz (scratched)

 

 

This one is also a line level input selector, has direct/bypass or EQ in, other features, also starts 32hz

 

 

same seller, black

 

he has new ones, not much more $, and he offers 30 day returns

Where do you live, I wanna hear that amp and those speakers!!! I’m in Plainfield, NJ, 07062

I might try a graphic equalizer, to ascertain if either boosting the mids a speck, or lowering the bass a bit would get a preferable sound out of those speakers. People tend to try this and that with the controls, too much messing about. I had one, found just a touch here or a slight touch there was enough.

this one has a 32hz band, better when trying to tame bass, many equalizers start higher, i.e. 60hz lowest band.

used one, inexpensive, hear results, go from there. you can learn a lot for $45.

 

independent controls for L and R help if room surfaces, etc vary which is often the case.

.............................................

My speakers have 2 L-pads, I can adjust the mid horn relative to the woofer, then adjust the tweeter horn to that mix. Old days, they all came with level controls. Speakers didn’t know what space they would end up in. Adjust for your room, move to another space, re-adjust them for that space, or your preffered sound, or your individual hearing

I use an inexpensive SPL meter, combined with a Test CD with many 1/3 octave bands. After that, adjust for preference, your hearing, ... by ear.

Meter on tripod, ear level, listening position.

$20.

 

https://www.discogs.com/release/7290000-Various-Amazing-Bytes

tracks 9 to 38

expensive, I bet I could find you a copy.

FWIW, John Atkinson gave a very favorable review of the Tyr in the latest S-phile issue, favorably comparing it with the Benchmark and even his Parasound Halo JC-1+.  

The Coda 16 is on another level.  If you are looking at the Coda 8 - put Krell in the mix, I found the 300xd outperformed the Coda, was a step up.  To be fair, haven’t heard the 16 but from what I have read, it’s an End Game, magical amp.  There has been a 15.5 on US Audio Mart for quite awhile upgraded to the 16.  That could be a great option at a great price.  Seller lists it as the “Gordie Howe” of amps.  
 

 

Thank you everyone.

 

@mm1tt77 I’ve seriously considered the Coda 8 (whichever the new version is) at used price. One of the well hidden gem, lesser known in America. With the very limited information about the Tyr as of now, The Tyrs are on the level of the Coda, that is very high praise. There’s gonna be a stereophile review of the Tyrs in January for what it’s worth.

 

@decooney The DVA M225 is 3.4k, The Tyr silvers are very close to 3.9k after tax and shipping which I’m not super thrilled about. I’d love any suggestions even near the 4.5k price range.

 

@elliottbnewcombjr Yea you’re right. I love this freaking tube amp. Mid-fi in price but not in nature. It has given me many beautiful late night listening, Borderline unforgettable. I’ve tried eq’ing down the bass and the problematic 200-400 hz range in youtube. Long story short there’s a massive difference between music on youtube and lossless. Youtube has this muddiness in the said hz range and lowering the EQ on those brought up the clarity substantially. Funnily enough, running lossless on amaon HD with no EQ, the background is extremely black and a calmness to the music I could never get from youtube. This is a rare review of our two amps.

 

I like your amp, would not consider it mid-fi, a very nice mid-powered tube amp, which I suspect sounds very nice. A bit more power than my Cayin A88T using KT88s 45wpc.

now, your BEAUTIFUL speakers, sensitivity 86 db is NOT easy to drive from a watts/sensitivity perspective, I think the designer is meaning, it's mostly constant 6 ohm impedance curve is not hard to drive.

Probably so, but I would want more power reserves for any speaker with low 86 db sensitivity, for instantaneous peaks, or bi-amp them.

IOW, unlike some KEFs, etc which are difficult to drive, with very low dips of impedance, yours's are consistently near 6 ohm, easy only by comparison to difficult speakers to drive..

So, I would consider the speaker, not the amp.

1st, I would try stuffing up the port. 

It is a transmission design, seems a nasty thing to go against it's method of achievement, however, perhaps it's bass ability is masking it's mids.

a. partially with soft diffuse material, across the face of the port

b. fully with some dense foam

Perhaps with some bass cut, the mids will be very nice.

2. move on to other speakers, higher sensitivity, and one not trying for too much bass which I think can be a mistake people make when reading numbers.

@mm1tt77 Currently I’ve got a Zesto Leto pre feeding a Krell Duo XD - combo would be well above your budget so not suggesting this path, wanted to give a sense of my personal tastes when it comes to house sound signature.

Exactly, this is the gap not usually covered when dealing with the desire of the OP all that well. While many of us can recommend a really good SS amp option, often times well outside of the budget of the requester. And, not wanting to spend $10-15k on a worthy SS class-A or amp myself. For literally HALF the money $, some good mono tube amps out there, with true three dimensional sound, scape, tone, totally engaging sound with mainstream tubes offered today.

The OP mentioned the AVA DVA M225s, Schiit Tyr, looking at the $3k range is a small pool of amps to jump up and down about. I’m intentionally excluding the Benchmark having been there with their quiet-spec gear, and feel it takes a little more $ to buy something truly engaging as a keeper musical amp(s). With the right tube preamp, maybe the Tyr mono amps, might generate some interest, but I’d still likely take a good used Coda if I had to go back to SS. If the OP could bring the budget up a little, there are amps out there to make those BMR speakers sing more. Recap, the OP stated the BMR speakers sounded "neutral". To me that statement can also mean "lacking body" to some. Get the right amp and they won't be overly neutral or lacking body.  Those are nice speakers when paired with the right amp(s).   There are better amps to be had out there for a modest increase in budget. I consider amps core to my system. OP, good-used might be another option too.  

Wow - great thread where the OP has gotten a lot of advice, guidance and opinions.  I’ve been down the road of trying to figure out if I prefer Tube or SS for amps and Pre’s.  

I don’t proclaim to be an expert but have been lucky enough to have plenty of gear and the ability to a/b on my own listening area.  My experience has taught me it’s all about synergy through the chain, room acoustics play a big role (took me quite a while to come to terms with this one) and the most important part of the equation, only persons opinion that matters is yours - if you love it - ignore the noise from others.  

Based on your set up, I’d start by assessing if you love your speakers.  If you do, exploring SS amps makes sense.  Some speaker require a control, efficiency, agility of an amp to be at there best.  From what have read about your speakers, they seem to fall into that category, they can be easy to drive per se but likely would really shine when driven by SS.  What you say you love about the speakers and the characteristics you want to enhance, that would point you to Tubes.  Picking the right SS Amp is key.  Krell, Coda, Pass all have some of the Tube like magic, warmth you find in Tubes but the benefits of SS power / control.  Class A leans into that harder but some A/B designs deliver a tube like experience.  
 

The best combo I have found is a Tube Pre paired with SS amp known for being able to drive almost any speaker while capturing some of that tube magic, a SS amp will likely never fully capture that magic however.  I don’t have any experience with Schiit gear but if you snagged a Freya + and one of their stereo or mono SS amps, should provide the right synergy between Pre and Amp.  Might get you where you want to go.  
 

I’ve had Parasound, Marantz, Anthem, Prima Luna, Krell, Coda all in my system.  I’ve preferred all tubes with certain speakers and SS with others.  Speakers I’ve had various Focal’s, an Omega Speaker and landed on the Alta Audio Alec’s.  All shined with a Tube Pre and SS Amp. 
 

My favorite SS Amps where the Krell’s followed closely by Coda.  I would guess if I moved up to the Coda 16 Amp it would have likely exceeded my love for Krell.  Currently I’ve got a Zesto Leto pre feeding a Krell Duo XD - combo would be well above your budget so not suggesting this path, wanted to give a sense of my personal tastes when it comes to house sound signature.  
 

Good Luck!  

Hello Sam, I became curious also with listening to other products and designs. My first hifi amplifier was a Class A solid state design which was extremely good. But reading hifi magazines got interested in tube amplifiers, I wanted to try one. Since, I’ve owned many SS and tube amplifiers throughout the years. So I understand your curiosity and can honestly say that for me, the only thing that would satisfy my curiosity was to travel down the path I did by hearing many them in my home. Some people prefer SS and others prefer tubes. I’ve discovered that I am mostly a tube person but I could be very happy with an all SS system as well. I recently went to my friends home who also is a tube guy to hear a setup he put together. It consists of $40,000 Dac & CD combo, $8,000 monitors, interconnect $3,500 per 3 meters and a class D amplifier $1,200. The sound was fantastic. Even though the rest of this setup is very expensive, I was quite amazed how good the sound was with a little inexpensive amplifier.  Solid State amps have their strengths and tube amps have theirs. It all comes down to which sounds best to you in your system. So even though I prefer tube amps, I still own some very good SS pieces. 

@lowtubes is a sage! Best advice I’ve read in a long time!

I currently run a Peachtree Grand x-1 hybrid intergrated amp with 440 watts per channel of class D solid state design.  This unit, like so many others today, have a built in pre-amp that is 'tubed'.  Peachtree has been a leader in making Class D a great way to go with S.S.  The current technology is a big boost in performance, cost and enviornonmentally more desireable.  Significant drop in power needed and used and much less heat.  The pre-amp section with 2 12AU7s gives back the magic of tubes and that 'tube sound'.  I also like any of the Rogue models of hybrid amps.  You can have your cake and eat it too.  Find a hybrid that fits your system and you will have the best of both worlds.

@samureyex ...It’s just that reading the reviews of these fantastic SS amps make me really curious. A tube pre-amp with SS monos sound enticing but I’m trying to have less tubes in my life. haha.

 

Gotcha. There were some helpful replies in this thread by members sharing with you the pros/cons of sound from each. I’m a 35+ year class A/AB solid state amp owner, until really good tube amps entered the picture for me 8 years ago. Well made tube amps are simple and don’t burn up tubes prematurely. Good USA or Japan made tube amp designs last 50+ years. If you want a lasting SS amp with decent sound, get a Bryston. Was simply trying to relate your BMR speakers will do much better with the right amp driving them. Best of Luck

@decooney  You misunderstand me. I'm very happy with the sound of my system. That comment about the bmr midrange being too neutral is just a concern I have when looking at SS pairing. It's just that reading the reviews of these fantastic SS amps make me really curious.  

 

A tube pre-amp with SS monos sound enticing but I'm trying to have less tubes in my life. haha. 

Tubes aren't getting harder to find as non-Russian tube manufacturers are ramping up more and more, and the Russian stuff is flowing again...note the guitar amp biz uses way more tubes than hifi ever has..."Vinyl is dead"...remember that?

You are doing the right thing moving to a solid state amp. Why not add a nice tube preamp if you must do tubes..Keep in mind that tubes are going to get harder to find as time goes on, especially since there are now two new strains of omicron viruses circulating The goverment will require again that everyone wears a mask.This is further going to raise havoc on supply and demand.

86 db sensitivity @ 6 ohms is not the easiest load to drive. Especially if the speaker dips lower in certain frequency ranges. May want to acquire a SS amp that can haul the mail @ 4 ohms. 

Not an issue here with the X200. 

jerryg123

2,798 posts

12-08-2022 at 02:56pm 

@secretguy and I have done the opposite.  I like SS for the pool house, game room and shop. Listening to SS right now in my office class A. 

Only listen with tubes when doing critical listening in the evening. 

One man's food is another man poison. 

Indeed. I will say that my SS reached deeper than my tubes did.

@lowtubes  Ty for the thorough insights. Really. =)

I use the musical fidelity m6si best ss amp I’ve ever used. Go get one

@lowtubes 

Why don’t you borrow of purchase a high quality Class A SS amp and do an AB comparison with your tube amp.  You should notice that the SS will sound more accurate which might lead you to believe it’s more transparent but take notice to which design engages you more and which draws you into the the music better. See which gives you a more 3D dimensional soundstage and which design throws the soundstage out further in the room, not just behind the speakers but out towards you and even behind your listening position.

This is exactly the kind of wise, experienced, helpful comment that keeps this forum vital and worth reading. Thank you, lowtubes!

 

Hello Sam, I’ve been in hifi audio for over 30 yrs and have heard so much nonsense from people,  I sometimes can’t believe what people write. Some important things I’ve discovered throughout the yrs. Your question about changing from a tube amp to SS can only be answered by knowing the rest of your system and why or exactly are you looking to improve in sound.  I personally have never found SS to sound better than a well designed tube amplifier in the areas of engagement and transparency.  I do find SS to be more accurate but it lacks the air and ultimate 3D dimensionality tubes give. I only use SS amps for systems that require it’s power. I’ve found that SS amps cannot sound warm and very transparent at the same time whereas tube amps can.  So, from a person as myself who has various systems setup in my home of very high quality components of both SS amps and tubes, my opinion would be to stick with your tube amplifier if it runs your speakers fine. If you have problems with power in your present system, you could try a Class A SS.   I run a pair of Class A SS mono block Threshold amps on my Electrostats speakers and even though the sound is very pure and transparent, I must admit, my 300b, EL34 and 805 power tube amps have something special in immediacy and engagement that SS do not have.  Why don’t you borrow of purchase a high quality Class A SS amp and do an AB comparison with your tube amp.  You should notice that the SS will sound more accurate which might lead you to believe it’s more transparent but take notice to which design engages you more and which draws you into the the music better. See which gives you a more 3D dimensional soundstage and which design throws the soundstage out further in the room, not just behind the speakers but out towards you and even behind your listening position.  I wish you a lot of luck in building a system that brings happiness to you. Throughout the years, I’ve learn the hard way that building  a great sounding system is not about spending a lot of money but about a lot of hard work and research and help. 

take a slight step up from mid fi to high value tube amps, e.g. the rogue audio cronus magnum integrated or atlas magnum and stereo 100 power amplifiers. these robust powerful tube amps have transparency, dynamics and refinement that cannot be topped by solid state amplifiers unless one spends thousands more and picks the right one. roll in some nos small signal tubes and you up the ante along with a sound stage that few solid state amps can match unless fronted by a very good tube preamplifier.  my experiences.  

There are now a bunch of amps the Coda Amplifier U.S.A retail before-discounts $6 k 

then class D   T&A from Germany is very good around $5k just a sample of the next tier  in quality best in class .

Why is any man eating another man poison? "Man poison again, damn." Pool house, game room...I compel all of the help including my valet to listen to mediocre systems, and in the evening they just avoid me...could be the tubes or maybe it's me...

@secretguy and I have done the opposite.  I like SS for the pool house, game room and shop. Listening to SS right now in my office class A. 

Only listen with tubes when doing critical listening in the evening. 

One man's food is another man poison. 

I tried tubes and went back to SS. I'd never go back to tubes.

Total BS look at the Qualiton A50i. Also, Toroidal transformer and is fantastic sounding piece of kit. BTW most of the components are built in house. @audioman58 read up a little.

 

A pure class A tube amp would be under 20 watts in a Tube amp ,

50 watts pentode or ultralinear , and$2k is just a starting point fora tube amplifiers

One ofthe key elements is the transformers ,and chokes ,brand name like Lundahl

that Ayon uses excellent C core type for example is far better then , any Chinese amp like primaluna , they use torroid type which no Highend company uses.

and inside the resistors,capacitors everything counts , I have had several Ayon models theirSpirit 5 is ideal triode,or pentode ,even the tube sockets solid copper

not cheap $3 brass type far better conductivity ,and machined aluminum cases, night and day better, less vibration than sheet metal, ad microprocessor controlled per tube bias, not All power tubes averaged out like most. Tubes wear better and optimum bias, better sound and they are using the very good kt150tubes.

when a tube goes bad it does not blow a transformer it goes into standby ,shows you the tube , just replace the tube ,hit there bias button and up and running .

yes abit more monies but very high quality from Austria.

 

 

 

 

 

Note that "high end" denotes quality and not necessarily a steep price. My Schiit Freya (original version) preamp has more flexibility relative to tube use (or not) and ins and outs than pretty much anything out there and consistently gets a "Class A" rating from a certain audio mag. Around a grand or so still, and it's also amazingly transparent. You can't even SEE these things...Too inexpensive for some to take seriously and that's their loss.

@lloydc - I agree with your comment regarding toroidal transformers. They may be a bit more challenging to use in a tube amp due to their extended bandwidth (passes more AC mains noise) and sensitivity to DC (careful output stage balancing is required), but with the correct circuitry around them, they offer some nice advantages. 

@headphonedreams  Yea the Tyrs are in my top 3. DVA M225 + Tyrs + Gato 150

 

@lloydc  The good ol' plug and unplug. Physically. I'm a big believer of less is more. Regarding Kt170s, I honestly don't know if the transformers are big enough but the amp is massive and weighs 70lbs. The 4 transformers in my limited knowledge, is quite big. But anyway I talked to the designer and he said it's good, he even recommends the KT170s. 

If I was looking for an amp in that price I would look at Schiit Tyr and try to find a nice pre amp. The Gato is probably great too, a bit uncommon and I have not heard it. I have heard another Schiit amp.

Or the Moonriver Audio. 

@audiman, "they use torroid type which  no Highend company uses"

My Rogers EH200Mk2 uses a giant toroid.  Can't imagine anyone saying it is not  "high end".

 

op, are you planning to use the same speakers and switch amps?  physically, or with a switch box?  Some issues with either of those plans.  I gave up on it.

you said you had inserted kt-170's.  Your amp does not appear to have been designed for those, did the manufacturer say that would work?  The transformers don't look large enough, and the bias circuit (cathode bias, I'd suspect) is unlikely to be correct for kt-170's.

@hilde45 Yea, the bmr are excellent values. Low sensitivity (86) but easy to drive, mild impedance curves.

 

@mesch You made a great point and it relates to my question. I love tubes but I don’t require that sound for music. I also love the strengths of what SS bring to the table for music. I was hoping there was a SS I could buy that could match or exceed the muscality of my tube amp for music, while also doing HT and gaming as well. But then any decent power SS can do HT and gaming.

 

Well I guess nothing beats home trial. I’ve pretty much narrowed amps down to 3 choices. I like a detailed midrange, and an airy neutral or even slightly boosted highs.

My 3 choices are monoblocks DVA M225, Schitt Tyrs, and the integrated Gato 150. I could and should ditch the Gato but I’ve had a love-obsession with its beauty for the past few years. Home trialing is only realistic with the Gato, The Schitt Tyr is buy and be-done since it costs a lot to return. Unsure about DVA.

 

Edit: After looking around DVA does offer 30-day returns. Gotta pay shipping, brokerage fee and all that. The usuals. 

I had some speakers designed by Murphy for Salk (SS6M) and then I bought other speakers that are more like the BMR speakers you have now (with RAAL tweeter). Your speakers, by the way, seem like excellent ones and excellent values.

In my experience, the best sound was attained in both sets of speakers with lower power tubes -- KT77’s are the best, to my ear.

Your tube amp cannot run KT77s. That raises the possibility that you might get a different tube amp.

The question becomes, what does the impedance curve on those BMR speakers look like? If it’s mostly flat, you’re good with lower power tubes, I think.

As for SS, like @wolf_garcia I have a Pass XA-25 and it’s going in my casket with me. It’s unbelievably smooth, intimate, warm, great soundstage.

@samureyex _ I agree with mesch, if your main focus with it is for movies and gaming, and what reads like from your post day time background listening maybe consider spending less on that amp; and using the excess funds towards your more dedicated music listening with your tube amp. As far as from where to purchase NOS tubes you can purchase from reputable places like : Vintage Tube Services, Brent Jessee, Upscale Audio and Tubemonger  to just name a few.

 

Well for movies and gaming why not get a SS intrgrated such as the Parasound 23+ or or one from Music Fidelity  or... something around $2K.

Boulder 

My Dennis Had tube amp is hardly "mid fi" except that it wasn't expensive, and I still listen to it from time to time but it was relegated to a resting spot by a Pass XA-25. That actually is one of the most transparent SS amps out there but it's 5 grand or so. Utterly worth it and there's nothing like it I know of.

A pure class A tube amp would be under 20 watts in a Tube amp ,

50 watts pentode or ultralinear  , and$2k is just a starting point fora tube amplifiers 

One ofthe key elements is the transformers ,and chokes ,brand name like Lundahl 

that Ayon uses excellent C core type  for example is far better then , any Chinese amp like primaluna , they use torroid type which  no Highend company uses.

and inside the resistors,capacitors everything counts , I have had several Ayon  models theirSpirit 5 is ideal triode,or pentode ,even the tube sockets solid copper 

not cheap $3 brass type far better conductivity ,and machined aluminum cases,night and day better,less vibration then sheet metal ,ad microprocessor controlled per tube bias ,not Allpower tubes averaged out like most.tubes wear better and optimum bias,better sound and they are using the verygood kt150tubes.

when a tube goes bad it does not blow a transformer it goes into standby ,shows you the tube , just replace the tube ,hit there bias button and up and running .

yes abit more monies but very high quality from Austria. 

 

As you know, the BMRs will have some similarities in sound to some of the Salk models. Suggest you head over to the AC forum and do some reading on the Salk and VanAlstine threads. 

@knotscott  The 2 owners are friends, Dennis and Jim Salk. Quite a history between the 2 men. Some years ago Dennis made speakers and sold them for so cheap (high quality) but he made no money, actually lost money and overworked eventually he had to stop completely due to medical reason. Jim Salk then continued on making Dennis speakers to sell to people. Long story short, Dennis has bounced back and has started producing high-value speakers again. Even designed some new speakers for Salk recently around $16,000.

 

Thank you everyone for your inputs. I should've been clearer in my post. I am not moving away from tubes. Quite the opposite actually. I value my tube times so much that I just want a nice SS on the side for movies, gaming, daytime music listening, so that I could prolong the tubes life for music listening late into the night. Tubes are expensive, Quad KT170 for $550. But the NOS ones I wouldn't know where to get once they run out. 

 

There are some bangers SS amps at around $4k. The gato 150. The super high-value DVA M225. Frank said these monoblocks are the best amps he'd ever made in the 50 years of amp making. And the Schitt Tyrs. The Tyrs are new, not a lot of reviews but Schitt also said these are the best amps they have ever made. User experience reflects that. Imagine the Schitt Aegir but with way more power, and even better sounding. 

Being an audiophile is an art. It takes a lot of experience to get the most out of your system…matching this to that and that to this. I will say this…there are lots of great products out there. But they all have to perform in your room. If you can, learn to be an artist at getting the most out of room. Sometimes I walk into a friends house and I can sense how good it will sound…I sometimes get envious thinking how good my system would sound in that room…lol.

Just my way of saying don’t forget the biggest and most important component.
 

It is truly  a matter of personal taste. I have both a hi end solid state  system  and a hi end tube based  system as well. After a lifetime  of solid state systems  that has ended in a mark levinson  Ayre  power pre. I feel I know a bit about the pros and cons of solid state systems  at or near the top. Having recently  developing  a tube system  of canary monoblocks  and a two box totally isolated by channel canary tube preamplifier  in many way I like that better. I do understand  you feeling that the running cost of tubes is much higher than a solid state system.  They are both very good but even though they are very much the same they are very different.  In short what I feel the difference  is the solid state system  feels like the performers are right in front of you. That is the system  that I have had a number of old men cry when they listened  to it. The sense of being there is very real. The tube system  doesn't  have that as much but it has beauty  in a way that the solid state cannot come close to. It is totally beautiful  rich  and the voices sound very wonderful.  I managed  to get some of that into.the solid state system  by using tubes in the front  end.  McIntosh  mr71, a sonic frontier  dac three, and an audio reseach  reference  phono stage.   But when you ask which is better that us personal  taste when it comes down to it. That is on the basis  that the systems  are on par with each other. 

 

Regards