Lush and Romantic Tube Amps

@bluethinker 

You have a very nice system but your description is vague. I suppose by lush and romantic what you mean is a classic, old school model. With speaker sensitivity you list I would recommend the Bob Carver RAM 285:

https://www.bobcarvercorp.com/ram-285

Leben CS600. It's an integrated so you can sell the LTA. Very Romantic but really sounds right.

A nicely restored pair of Dynaco MkIII's. I have 'em!

One of the early Conrad Johnson Premier amplifiers, like the Premier 3, would be a good fit (I know you tried the ART, this is much different).  Or a pair of older Jadis JA 80s using KT88 or EL34 tubes.

      The use of NOS British* tubes for input and driver/splitter positions, warmed things up considerably, for every customer that asked, back in the day.

       Amp's manufacturer didn't matter.

       Nor: whether octal or nine pin miniature tubes.

       The carbon composition resistors, used widely in older tube amps, gave them a warmer signature.    Even SS gear could be warmed up, by swapping those in for cleaner resistors.

                               *ie: Mullard, Genelex or Brimar

        Brent Jessee's site has a wealth of information, as regards the presentation of the valves available in the NOS market.

                                   http://audiotubes.com/

         You could warm up your existing system's presentation, by installing British valves in your LTA preamp, whatever your current amp.

The Decware ZMA with it's huge power supply would be a good choice for those speakers.  Closest you can get in a push-pull to the SET sound.

JErry

"Leben CS600"  "Decware ZMA"   - 32wpc and 40wpc amps for 87db speakers and a large room?

@facten

+1, anemic choices

The Carver RAM 285 I linked to above:

Power test at 1Kz produce 129w @ .25% THD+N.

85 WPC 18 Hz to 20 KHz minus 1 dB at less than less than .5% THD+N.

@kota1 - thank you for this suggestion. I’ve seen Bob Carver’s name on this board before, but as I’m new to audio equipment, have no familiarity with his equipment. That 85 watt amp looks extremely compelling. I have been on the fence, nearly ready to plunk down the money for the Conrad Johnson classic 120se, possibly with EL34 tubes, but the price tag is substantial and I’m a little afraid the sound signature will be similar to the CJ art 150 which I tried in my home already. From your experience, how would you describe Carver’s equipment sound signature? I did listen to a few online tidbits I could find and frankly what I heard I liked - a lot. You get the sense of warmth, which is what I’m after. 
 

@jasonbourne71 - thank you for the suggestion. I will look into them a a bit more. 
 

@rodman99999 - thanks for the wisdom on the NOS tubes! 
 

@rcprince - I’ve heard from several posters that the older CJ amps are what I should be looking for. My apprehension has been around maintenance of an older unit. I know CJ still maintains older equipment, but packing and shipping gives me pause. Would you have similar concerns? Or do you feel otherwise? 
 

@dhcod - I’ve read about Leben, but am afraid that amp might not be powerful enough. I also have a bit of a live affair with my LTA preamp! 
 

@carlsbad2 - I’ve read about Decware and all the positive feedback. However, I’ve found, in this space, I really need a lot of watts. The Qualiton / Audio Hungary that I own currently is great with 100 watts. I am really looking for an amp with a similar sound signature, preferably with a USA-based manufacturer. 

@bluethinker

I have been using Carver gear for about 20 years, both his preamp from Sunfire and a Carver amp that uses trickle down tech from the legendary Lightstar design. Bob has a LOT of patents so when you hear one of his designs I find it unique. The preamp I use is solid state yet has a tube like sound signature similar to a Jeff Rowland tube design. The amp I use is a 5 channel amp at 80 watts a channel. It uses a tracking downconverter that can push those watts wherever they are needed for brief periods. Then look at the in home audition policy:

Enjoy a Carver Amplifier Challenge in your home with your speakers. If you are not in love with our product, we will refund your full purchase price with no restocking fees. Compare our performance to others. Hear the performance your speakers are truly capable of.

With the Carver Amplifier Challenge, the customer always wins

The classic (little 'c') Conrad Johnson Premiere 12s and similar.

OP and @facten

I’ve heard the Leben extensively with 86dB Harbeths and it’s a great match.

@bluethinker

If you type Carver into the search bar of the Virtual System area you will find many members with systems posted using his designs you can contact via DM. You can also see many of the professional reviews that are linked to on the Carver website.

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/9107

Bluethinker--yes, I would be a little concerned about an older CJ amplifier.  I'd probably send the unit to CJ if I got it used to have them check it out,

Another possibility is VAC.  You might like their older amps like the Renaissance 70/70.  VAC is very good about supporting their older amps, if you get one used.

Space-tech. Have one custom-made just for you. Amazingly affordable and amazingly rich warm sound

Cary SLI-80 Signature. It doesn’t get much more lush than that, if that’s yer thing….

As for VAC, the only one I’ve heard was the PA 100/100. It was about as far from tubey as you could get. I’ve owned many SS amps that sounded more like a tube amp than that one.

Having 40 years in Audio I speak by experience.

by far the best value as well as quality are the hand built SET 300 B amplifiers 

by Vacuum tube Engineer,designer Radu Tarta . You would have to spend 3-4x 

as much $$ money to = his build quality ,and sound ,His Great amps start around $6k  using the Excellent Lundahl transformers,and chokes ,and side panels  and top plates he has custom built to any standard ,and powder coated  with beautiful solid wood front and side panels. 

If you had a sensitive speaker like a Spatial audio , or Klipsch Lascala 1 watt would be plenty at over 104 db efficiency.

+rcprince

Ozzy--the Rennaissance amps use 300B tubes, a lot different sound than the PA10/100s..

@bluethinker @kota1 i recommend stay away the bob carver company. a while back they got buted out bad with the  275 claiming to be 75WPC with 15W output transformers. ASR, AK and klipsch forum all had covered this and discussed it at length. 

that imediately came to mind after reading a few posts. 

illl put some thought into giving u a good answer. 

happy listening and all the best, buddy. 

ceylon

@jasonbourne71 if it werent 15W shy of the OPs min, thatd be right on the button. 

@rcprince premier 3 is a preamp. premier 4 and 5 are power amps, stereo 100WPC and mono 200w, respectively. i heard that the premier 4 runs the tubes riht at the edge and eats em alive. 

tubes4hifi AKA vta 125W mono amps. 

conrad johnson MV75 factory upgraded

mcintosh 275 of course

conrad johnson premier 1B

i do not have any personal experience with these, but a while back i read every conversation i could find about several families of power amps. 

give this a read:
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/conrad-johnson-tube-power-amps.491413/

You’re not going to like this answer, hifi is of course very personal. I like a tubey sound, -  not a sound that has tubes but wants to be closer to an integrated circuit profile. Which to me means using a low power amp, because the tubes that have that sound are the ones based on the historic ones from the film sound era. 300b’s or 2a3’s or to get a bit more extreme, 45’s or 50’s. For someone like me, tube sound is an exploration. So I started with el34’s then 6l6’s and then 300b’s, etc. This is over the course of many years. And as we all know, our systems are equations, so because a component sounds bad, it could just as easily be to your liking if some other element changed, (or if it’s new and gets broken in). So if you like your current system, keep it, and don’t try to get a tube sound working with components that really aren't going to get you a classic lush tube sound. I would suggest you just get an experimental system for tube exploration. You won’t have to spend that much money to do this. Just make sure your speakers are efficient. Get used and vintage equipment. Have a great time changing things in and out. You’ll usually be able to sell on used stuff for what you paid for it. And don’t ask people how to power inefficient speakers with a tube amp. You can of course easily do that, but that is not going to be a classic tube sound. You know Altec's in giant old movie theaters were powered by 8 watt amps. 

Look no further.  ARC Vsi 75. 👍

+1 on the ZMA. Great amp able to use a variety of power tubes to adjust the sound to your preference.

Find a preowned Cary, CAD 808R... not the easiest to find in the "R 12bz7" version. Fill with Genelex KT88 & EL84. The "Rocket 88R" is strong contender for the sound you seek. Checks all the boxes. Just my opinion. 

@rcprince

I have owned the VAC Renaissance 70/70 for 20 years, recently updated by VAC to their "signature" version 5 months ago. I don't consider it to lean towards a warm tuby sound. It is rather transparent, with a beautiful "realistic" midrange and very holographic soundstage. Maybe I am tainted, but it's not a thick syrupy sounding amp at all to me.

I purchased a used CJ MV60SE several years ago. Luckily, it was in mint condition. I have it paired with a ET3SE preamp. It doesn’t have the power you are looking for but I think CJ amps are pretty robust. A Classic 60SE may fit your needs. As previously mentioned, CJ will service older equipment. They will even upgrade caps etc as needed. I spoke with a service technician about my amp a few years ago. I could have a complete inspection and upgrade for just under 1K. Obviously, the cost of a new amp is significantly more than 1K. On the negative side, I’ve read on the CJ owners group that Teflon caps can change the sound and take a long time to burn in. I’m still on the fence but I trust CJ’s ability to recondition older equipment. Personally, I haven’t read any negative comments. Keep in mind, you have to cover the shipping and they prefer original packaging. If you have any questions, give CJ a call and speak with a technician. They are great people.

I have, and love, the Leben CS600x.  I might not characterize it as lush, though it definitely tilts warm in my system.  Another Leben alternative is the CS1000p, which is a 100w tube amp.  Haven’t heard it myself, but i’m a big fan of the brand.

I am on a quest for a lush, warm and romantic tube amp. Ideally, it should be 75 watts and upwards. I’m in a large room and my speakers are 87.5 sensitivity and 8 ohm.

@bluethinker If the above is correct you will find that 75 Watts is not enough power. A large room, combined with the low efficiency of your speakers will not allow the amp to play all forms of music without overloading. IME you'll need at least 300 Watts with speakers of that efficiency!

So if you want to use tubes (tube power has always been expensive BTW...) you'll want a speaker that is a good 6dB more efficient. That would put you at about 93dB. 75 Watts would then be able to drive the speakers as loud as the 300 Watts on your current speakers.

The cost of tube amplifiers is why there were so many high efficiency speakers back in the old days (1950s and prior). There is no reason why a more efficient speaker should trade off resolution with a less efficient speaker.

To atmasphere:    Knowing your background of tube design, etc., would you recommend perhaps using a SS power amp with a tube preamplifier?  Or perhaps a ss / tube hybrid integrated?  Thanks.

What amps have you heard to make you think you want warm and lush?  Maybe mention those amps to give people a point of reference.  I ran CJ Pr.12xs (triode amps w/el34’s) for quite a while.  They were probably the warmest and lushest amps CJ made at the time.  I still use tubes but no longer prefer that older CJ sound when compared with what they offer today.  If you truly are looking for warm and lush I recommend you look for a pair of CJ Premier 8’s.  They come up on the used market occasionally and will be exactly what you are looking for.  Plus they will give you the power atmasphere says you need.  I hope you have good A/C though because they will put out some heat.

But going back to warm and lush, make sure that’s what you really want.  Many people think it’s what they want until they get it.  I mean who wouldn’t want warm and fuzzy😎.  Personally with your speakers (which I lust for btw) I don’t think warm and lush is really what you should be looking for.

Speakers seem to require lots of power. I would go with a more powerful tube amplifier especially if you've got a bigger room.

Just to clarify a little more what I started out trying to say above, what I should have asked is what warm and lush amps have you heard that you’re trying to replicate?Assuming you didn’t like the CJ sound you mentioned in your other thread doesn’t necessarily mean you will like warm and lush.  There is lots of middle ground.

To atmasphere:    Knowing your background of tube design, etc., would you recommend perhaps using a SS power amp with a tube preamplifier?  Or perhaps a ss / tube hybrid integrated?  Thanks.

@gregjacob If the speakers are low efficiency as the speakers of the OP, perhaps yes if the amplifier used isn't harsh.

'Warm and lush' is a sign of a prodigious 2nd harmonic. Our ears interpret the 2nd and 3rd as 'warmth' and these harmonics can mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics (5th and above) which the ear interprets as brightness and harshness (typical solid state attributes).

There are class D amps that don't make the higher ordered harmonics like traditional solid state amps do, and so sound very much like a very good tube amplifier. Driven by a tube preamp, such class D amps can be extremely life-like and satisfying.

atmasphere

Thanks for the answer.  I've looked at your Atmasphere Class D. It looks nice.  I would probably be looking for a single unit Class D stereo to pair with a nice tube preamp.  Have you ever considered making one? 60-100 watts... would be such a nice fit to reach for the best of both worlds!

Can anyone provide a working definition of "neutral?"  In other words, a point from which we can agree is indeed sonically neutral?

Check out tubes4hifi.com for their amps. They are modern "minimalist" iterations of Dynaco amplifiers, with very high quality components. They can use 6550, KT88, KT90, KT120 output tubes; a 5U4 type rectifier, and 12AU7 driver tubes. Their amps are also available in kit form if that sort of satisfaction is for you.....I purchased my VTA ST-120 amp already assembled with the upgraded capacitors, and a stepped attenuator to use without a pre-amp.

The VTA ST-120 is a stereo amplifier that is well north of 70 WPC high current power with the KT120 tubes, Cost is $1,340 without tubes, and $1,695 with 6550 tubes.

The M-125 mono blocks are north of 150 WPC high current with KT120 tubes and are $2,900 per pair without tubes.....$3,650 with a 6550 tube set.

I run rather expensive Amperex 7308/6922/12AU7 driver tubes, with a Philips 5R4GYS rectifier, and Tung Sol KT-120 power tubes.

@atmasphere totally agree......Unless you can afford an Aavik integrated for 20K....a good tube preamp paired with a quality class D amplifier....is pure magic.....very immersive...sweet....lush......just musical.

@bluethinker 

Not sure what you mean by romantic and lush but to me amps with exposed tubes are romantic if not steampunk!

You have a lot of great suggestions.  I use Manley Snappers and i am very happy with them.  They are dead quiet and musical.  Their aesthetics could be polarizing to some.  I think they are cool!

Can anyone provide a working definition of "neutral?"  In other words, a point from which we can agree is indeed sonically neutral?

Neutral equipment makes no editorial of the signal. The Absolute Sound magazine gets its name from the idea that the musical source is the absolute sound; neutral would be exact reproduction of that without coloration of either warmth or brightness- just the music.

Establishing a reference quickly becomes an item of concern. The only way I know to deal with this is to make high quality recordings of musical events at which you were there, so you know how its supposed to sound.

What you are looking for doesn’t exist, at least not at 75 watts. When you start pushing tubes beyond 50 Watts or so they get much more solid state sounding (less second order harmonics). You’ll lose that single ended lush sound, especially with a neutral speaker like the Buchardts. Big horns and a SET amp will do it. Cornwalls, La Scala, Altec A5 etc. get big speakers for a big room and pair with a 300b SET amp. Twittering Machines has a video on YouTube with the Cornwalls paired to an 8 watt 300b integrated in a 35’x40’ room. Pretty impressive.

If you insist on keeping the Buchardts, try pairing with a monster class A SS amp. Something like a vintage Krell to keep costs reasonable.

 

Can anyone provide a working definition of "neutral?" In other words, a point from which we can agree is indeed sonically neutral?

Atmas-Phere Wrote:

Neutral equipment makes no editorial of the signal. The Absolute Sound magazine gets its name from the idea that the musical source is the absolute sound; neutral would be exact reproduction of that without coloration of either warmth or brightness- just the music.

Establishing a reference quickly becomes an item of concern. The only way I know to deal with this is to make high quality recordings of musical events at which you were there, so you know how its supposed to sound.

--------------------------------------

Thank you very much Ralph for your rational and helpful post. I am interested because I suspect my preferences in reproduced music are at least in part aligned with those of the OP, Bluethinker. It seems to me that an actual, factual, emprical personal reference point is essential in determining whether a component is "neutral" or not. 

So Ralph, who makes the sort of Class D amps you describe? Kidding...sorry...I'd like to try a pair of 'em someday so if there's a pair of demos floating around (unlikely as that may be)...I use a superb sounding Pass XA-25 that is allegedly "tube-ish" (according to Nelson) class A, and rotate that in and out with an astonishing sounding Dennis Had Firebottle SEP...I get away with that by using very efficient horn speakers...large room, large sound, a large time is had by all.

bluethinker  i think i have what you are looking for, 

conrad johnson 

et 3se preamp

mf2500a power amp  rebuilt by cj. let me know.......

I want to echo what @vthokie83 had to say about the VTA amps.  The prices quoted for them were fully assembled.  You can save a lot of money if you buy them as a kit and build it yourself.  

Look.  ANYONE can build these things.  I was using a soldering iron at age 12.  You can do it.  But far, far more importantly than saving money is how much more involved you'll be in your system.  You'll get infinitely more pleasure and enjoyment if you build the amp.  

Another benefit is that you'll learn a great deal about tube amps and you'll be able to learn about all of the components that go into making them sound as they do, and then to make choices that suit your ear.  There is no amp, at any price, that can give you that experience.

@fthompson251 

I have 2 VAC signature 200 IQ mono blocks and I agree with your assessment.  Nice and rich, but not "syrupy".  With KT 150's they really sing and have a lot of lower end punch. No one would confuse this with solid state, except for the great bottom end.  Great sound stage as well.  This would be an excellent choice for the OP to run in stereo mode.

OP-You have received many excellent amplifier recommendations above.  But +1 for what @rodman99999 says.  You can further refine the sound by rolling tubes.  Based on your objective, NOS Mullards and Telefunkens  would be an excellent starting point.  I prefer a lighter, more detailed sound, so I use Telefunkens and Amperex Bugle Boys.  Its fun to try different tubes and assess the change in sound too.  Good luck