Is there such a thing as a FOREVER DAC/streamer?

@melm 

+1

Just two thoughts:

1. It depends upon your age.

2. IMO digital audio is currently more mature than it is being given credit for.  It is being credibly compared with analog and with the sound of real music.  The really good stuff at various price points is there for you to discover.

Every time I have changed my Dac is to get something better. Not because I'm bored with what I have, a purchasing itch to scratch or a different flavour. I want to experience increasingly better sound.

Exactly.  I've been through a number of DACs and all resulted in "better" sound to me, with "better" of course being subjective.  

Whether something is "forever" or not depends a lot more on your listening tastes and budget than it does on the technology.  DAC technology will continue to improve, but it's likely that those improvements will be small incremental ones and depending on your age and hearing, what you're more likely to hear is the "voicing" of the DAC, not its technical abilities.

A contrarian point of view… Yes, you can find your “forever” system if you’re not addicted to continually upgrading gear.  DACs are already delivering in formats that are barely indistinguishable from one another to the human hear, e.g. DSD256 on up.  As long as your system sounds close to live music, what more improvement is there?  Better than live music?  I’m happy with my setup and not planning to invest more unless something breaks.  

The simple truth is that many people who have invested in a better dac mostly switch for the sake of trying something new or a slightly different flavor. 

I disagree. Every time I have changed my Dac is to get something better. Not because I'm bored with what I have, a purchasing itch to scratch or a different flavour. I want to experience increasingly better sound.

If I was you I’d buy a Gustard R26 on Amazon, and if it’s not a meaningful improvement return it and decide if you want to spend considerably more on something else or just stick with the DAC in the Hegel knowing you’ve got a really good thing.  And, if sometime well down the road there’s a significant improvement in DACs you didn’t dump a truckload on antiquated technology.  You’ll also obviously need a good digital cable, and I’d recommend the Acoustic Zen MC2 (they come up used occasionally, which is how I bought mine).  Hope this helps, and best of luck. 

At my age I don’t think there is a forever DAC.

However as technological change is rapidly accelerating I would say

not. I would not rely on a DAC to rely on to give me the ongoing audio pleasure I would be happy with. Only my opinion, and it has been discussed on this forum many many times, layer you system by importance. Speakers, then the rest as you feel. My speakers will out last me and they were not cheap. Like cars, electronics will trickle down ( say from F1 or the best Merc or some such) the best will be affordable sooner than speaker technology. Only my opinion. :)

@ghdprentice , you find you groove, you know it could be "better" but there is always a risk it could be less enjoyable too. I found that once I got my room just right and upgraded my room correction software, my system was "good enough". Thanks to other members here I learned that to get a decent step up a better dac would be least $5K and I still don’t know if I would prefer it over what I have now, maybe it would be not as good a fit.

@gpixels 

That is purely a subjective question, it depends on user preference.  Spend more you’ll get more.  If one is satisfied with the sonics and/or $ spent then likely they will stop.  
Digital audio, like most technologies, does not stand still.  

@kota1

I have always found plateaus that I am really happy with for seven to ten years. Where I have no interest in upgrading… I don’t want to screw up the synergy created between all my components. I read The Absolute Sound and Stereophile… etc. but have no desire to upgrade… just enjoy my system.

Then for no obvious reason I get interested in upgrading one piece… the one I perceive to be the biggest opportunity. I never do less than 2x or 3x investment so it makes a significant difference. But that triggers upgrading many or most components… then interconnects and power cords, then vibration. Then I am happy as a clam for another 7 - 10 years.
 

Clams are happy? Why is that?

I would say that for those 75 or older, a DAC bought today would likely be FOREVER.  Below that age it will become outdated.

I believe Esoteric’s have firmware that can be updated.

I would ask is there such a thing as a "forever" satisfied audiophile. I was watching a video on youtube about dacs by Thomas and he used the phrase "good enough". Although some dacs might provide more air, more bass, more this or that he described reaching a point that it doesn't matter because the sound you have now is so satisfying it is good enough. So in that case I say YES, there is a forever DAC and when you find it, just keep it. 

Yeah the DAC we build.  30 pound separate power supply, 101D direct heated triode tubes, point-to-point wired, V-Capacitors, Audio Note resistors, Nichicon capacitors, AC filter chokes, R2R, etc.  Probably not one DAC manufacturer uses any of the parts in their DAC.  Reference sound that very few people have heard.

Happy Listening.

Folks are at different points and places within this hobby. Let’s be more accepting and open...

A phone - Audioquest Cobalt (or equivalent) as streamer/DAC is not at all bad and an elegant solution for most who are listening to and enjoying their music.

+1 @donroth

@donroth You are clueless.

“A dac that makes beautiful music today will make beautiful music 10 years from now as long as it is built with quality parts”

+1, @arafiq

I plan on keeping mine! 

DAC Technology is not as fast moving as the the peddlers want you to think.

I agree with the OCD Mikey on that.

The length of "forever" is inversely proportional to how old you are. A great DAC bought now will still sound great 20 years from now, assuming the electronics and mechanical devices within it don’t age and change value or lose function over time.


It is best to look at our 2-channel stereo set ups as SYSTEMS. If I have a $10K stereo overall, the DAC I choose to get likely will be no more than whatever the "best" one is around $1000 to $2000.

It would be foolish of me to buy a $6000 DAC when my system (and my older ears) won’t be able to appreciably hear a significant difference.

It all depends on what you are chasing and how often you are mentally and financially willing to try catching it.

Technology will continue to improve to a certain extent. Today’s high-end DACs certainly are amazing devices, but that level of performance will eventually trickle down to cheaper ones and the difference between "good enough" and "great" will continue to narrow.

Think of HDTVs. Just 10 years ago OLED and other technologies cost a premium, but today QLED has caught up and even surpassed OLED, and prices have dropped tremendously. The march forward of technology is a great thing.

Consider that the current darlings of DACs, the R2R types are mostly made in communist China because manual labor is cheap there (like many of the popular tube amps requiring point to point wiring are). But imagine a company investing in automation to create high end DACs and do so in mass quantities. That might happen one day and then even the great unwashed out there who don’t even care about sound quality will have no way of avoiding it and actually hearing it.

It will just be the technical norm at that point.

As others have noted, just buy a good DAC, price commensurate to your system or thoughts on how far you plan to upgrade say in the next 5 to 10 years, and simply enjoy the music.  

Aside: Regarding "forever" I note that many of the Denafrips and other DACs use electrolytic capacitors in them. Should we be concerned about them drying out and changing value over time, like the ones in old speaker crossovers? IDK.

*One casket says to the other casket, is that you coffin? 

Some might consider after all their past efforts there may come a time when you realize, sure that might be another incremental improvement - you sit back listen and think, meh...

All the best and a long life. 

*D. Martin to F. Sinatra

A dac that makes beautiful music today will make beautiful music 10 years from now as long as it is built with quality parts. The simple truth is that many people who have invested in a better dac mostly switch for the sake of trying something new or a slightly different flavor. 
 

Buy the best dac you can afford, pay special attention to build quality, and enjoy the music. 

iPhone 7 streamer + Audioquest Cobalt DAC. Spectacular.

(Luxman LX-38 Ultimate Tube Integrated, Altec Model 18 speakers)

I think good powered speakers are going make all components start to look like relics from the past.  I’ve compared my Sonos internal dac to my mcintosh dac in the integrated to the Bryston bda 1 and it’s really hard for me to tell much of a difference.  I second whoever mentioned isolation, power supply, and output stage as being very important.  The work of converting digital to analog is about as start of art as it’s going to get IMO.  There’s a great system out there for any budget.

@curtdr 

Very sound financial advice.

Well... "forever" is a long time, but if it's awesome now it'll be awesome for a while... I think many of us can attest to still running on the internal dacs of cd players from ten or even twenty years ago; I know I do, and everybody including me likes the sound of my systems.  Is there something "better"...? Eh, sure, I suppose...   Will a great sounding dac now still sound great in fifteen years?  Yes, unless something goes wrong with it.  Might there be new formats, with new "effects" or whatever? Sure, but two-channel stereo will still be there, chugging along and sounding great. 

But if you're worried about it (unless you have lots of money sloshing around and your house is all paid off, your cars and all your other debt it paid off and your retirement accounts and kids' educations and so on and so on are all maxed out), then don't spend thousands of dollars on a dac that might give you some small perceived "improvement" over a less expensive one, only to be chomping at the bit to throw another thousands away a few years from now.  Find some frugal limit, get a good dac that sounds good with your system and to your aural preferences, and then enjoy the music.  There are many many dacs just like many many amps and speakers and whatever else... one can obsess to the point of never being satisfied with anything because there's always something over the rainbow out there; or, one can make some solid selections and relax for a decade or two.  

Or perhaps dacs can be "firmware updated" like operating systems... I dunno.  

That said, I know what I say is my perspective.  Only recently, now that I have some spare cash, have I felt any need or even desire to upgrade anything because I already have two systems that I like a lot.  I doubt I'll do much dac shopping; what I have sounds great, and if I do get that Technics SU R 1000 amp with it's own version of dacness, or that Accuphase e-480 with an Accuphase modular dac unit, I think I'll be sitting more than "pretty good."  I won't need any external dac; I'd rather play with speakers, if I'm not satisfied with my system's sound.  I like good stuff that lasts, and it's been a good formula in stereoland and in-general-land.  

@oddiofyl 

Comgradulations! I am sure you will get a couple of decades of use out of your new streamer. 

I just bought an Aurender N200. I love it, hopefully it will be supported for years to come. That unit was worth the price of admission. Sounds better with a good DAC than any transport / DAC I’ve had in the past that spins physical media. SACD and BluRay Audio sounded great on those machines but where do you find discs?

The N200 sounds awesome with Qobuz 24/96 and higher content and sounds better than any CD player I’ve had with Redbook.

Will it be forced into obsolescence? Hope not

Woah, who said anything about future proofing. Definitely not.

But each technology goes through a number of stages. Introduction (remember the CD! Wow, quiet background… but wow, what terrible sound)… slow improvement, then rapid improvement at the high end, then slowing improvement at the high end, improvement of mid-level devices… then continuing improvements at all levels. something like that.

DAC have gotten pretty good. I think we are at the mid-level DACs improvement level. Streamers are behind. High end streamers are way ahead… but that will slowly change.

DAC technologies are actually going backwards. Back to R2R.

@fuzztone I would as long as it is modular like Simaudio or even some of the NAD products. The key is isolation and upgrade ability.

No, there is not

 In my opinion, DAC technology, like computers etc. is a moving target. Pick a time to hop on the train, and look forward to the future. I don’t think there is a “forever” in this area. Now, loudspeakers can be a different story in that many can find their “forever” speakers. I certainly have. Good luck with your search and enjoy the ride!

Future Proof and DAC generally do not go well together. That said people have mentioned DAC's like the PS Audio that via FPGA firmware are upgradeable for a number of years. At some point a manufacturer will need to make something new as they have to keep selling to stay in business. I would make sure to find out the upgrade path and it should allow 5-10 years of quality functionality.

Depends on how much longer one lives and how ambitious they are. I've experienced digital sound quality I thought I could live with for the long run, nothing I could complain about and superior to my pretty nice vinyl setup. But curiosity caught me which led to upgrading streamer and better sound yet. Never ceases to amaze how much information contained on relatively low res 16/44. Until we reach a point at which no more information can be obtained from 16/44 they'll be individuals seeking to extract and hear that information.

Almost every product promising a “future proof “ platform is forced into obsolescence by technology and or OS / Hardware limitations 

When technology is a constantly moving target there is no such thing as being future proof.   

@ghdprentice 

At some stage, you're right that components may end being the last upgrade.

I'm working towards that myself. Have speakers, DDC, Dac, streamer, RCAs, power cables, digital cable, speaker cables sorted.

If no chance to upgrade LPS, external clock and amp, I'm fine with what I've got, and fine with the sound. Having been in this game for 46 years, I know I want to upgrade those as well.

My DAC is my most expensive component, a PS Audio Directstream w/ streamer card. And I’m glad because streaming is more and more of my listening. It’s software-based, and they’ve issued a number of updates that are easy to make with just an SD card. But still … now they’re introducing a new version and will stop upgrades to the Directstream. So I suppose there’s no such thing as forever in digital. But I do think this source is so important that I’d still spend what it takes to get a great one.

+1@jeffreyw

Check out Aries Cerat

No such thing really. 
however, some have firmware updates. 
Take the Lumin (I have a D2)… since I purchased, there have been several updates. 
it’s part of their DNA to continue the updates. For my non-vinyl purposes, this is possible my last streamer purchase. 
 

the PS Audio airLens looks quite interesting, however. 

In my opinion, getting a quality setup now on the digital side is a worthwhile investment even if it might be surpassed in five years or whatever quoted timeline. Because one thing that is irrelevant is of time is having a setup you can enjoy. A component with good isolation, clean power supply, usability, etc will still be providing that same quality five years from now.

If a setup today makes you content for years to come, that’s what counts in my view in terms of making an investment.

Check out MSB Technologies. 

Let us know what you decide to do and good luck in this journey!

Sends on your disposable income , in 5 years there maybe something 

much better for less money , that being said  if it’s built well and sounds verygood 

no reason to keep buying. In Highend audio sometimes you may have to 

spend 2x as much to gain 5%+ . Diminishing returns ,you can always get a little better if you have-the $$ to burn 🔥 !! 

I have 2 of the same DACs for my 2 systems. It is the Musetec 005 DAC. I am in the process of building out my second system and my dealer is strongly suggesting I get the Bricasti M12 preamp/DAC at $16K. I am considering it as a final system purchase. However, as I listened to the Musetec 005 on my office system, I was thinking what the heck am I trying to improve here?

So I am going with the 2 Musetec 005's and use Sonore OpticalRendu streaming. The Bricasti has Ethernet streaming so it reduces the box count but I think my streaming is better and the DAC likely just as good (maybe better).

BTW - I have 3 Sonore OpticalRendu's, 1 for headphone system, and 2 for office and Livingroom 2-channel. So maybe I do have a forever streamer.

Forever of course not. Knock it out of the ballpark of course not. It’s digital 0s and 1s. Different …. Sure. Small differences from a .5k dac to a 5k dac. Not saying the differences aren’t there but knock your socks off I personally do not believe so unless the more expensive one is tubed and colored to hell.

Check out Aries Cerat or even AudioNote. Should provide many years of enjoyment! The Aries Cerat products have a very unique design. 

There is no such thing as a forever component… well for me there may be… I’m 70. But, in general no. But on the other hand you can buy ahead. I am willing to bet that my Aurender W20SE will out perform the contemporary BlueSound for at least 20 years. My Aurender performs at the level of my great vinyl system. So, I get incredible performance now… that will likely last past the end of my life. 

This has been proven to me over and over again since the 1980’s. You get an audiophile piece of equipment and it will outperform other stuff for a decade or more and lower end stuff for much longer. The quality of the design and materials in a high end piece of equipment just isn’t easily reproducible. With the movement away from globalization this gap is likely to get larger.

No

Maybe, maybe not.

Forever?  Who you crappin'?

Streamers have only proliferated for 

11 years since the Aurender S10 came out.

And I would never buy one enclosed with a DAC.

Knock yourself out.

If you like the sound of that amp/dac then don't worry about better just enjoy. Also that to me is one of the downsides of the amp/dac combo you're basically stuck with that Dac or you paid for it but you're not using it.

“At the end of the day, DAC is a digital product.”

With that outlook, don’t bother to waste your money on an external DAC. You are only adding an expense of power cord, digital cord for not much gain. If you can’t help wondering, buy a DAC with a return policy to scratch your itch :-)