CPU load with ROON simultaneously streaming to 4 endpoints. That is with upsampling a 16/44 to 96
Is there a ROON sound?
I finally had to give in and open a ROON account. I bought the highly recommended 432 EVO Aeon server, but it only works with ROON (as an endpoint) or the Logitech Media Server. The latter seemed a bit awkward to get going, so I started a ROON account (so far for a year). The server offers a plethora of filter and up-sampling choices, let alone the unique ability to change the orchestral pitch to 432 Hz down from the now common 440Hz (the way Mozart or even Verdi heard their music before 440 became the common recording standard for sounding "crisper"). [I have tried this option several times but was underwhelmed. But that's just my personal first take on the subject]
Up to now, I listened to most of my music either through Apple Music as ALAC files or Quobuz as FLAC; I also have a Native DSD library and another with YouTube downloads (FLAC as well). The latter go directly from my MacBook Air (M1 chip) to my MSB Discrete DAC, or through an Audirvana rinse cycle.
My first impression listening to the 432EVO/ROON combination on "Brothers in Arms" was like listening with lightly compressed cotton plugs in my ears. That was with the manufacturer-recommended upsampling rate and filter-choice. I could hardly understand any of Mark Knopfler's (admittedly mumbling) musings! I immediately switched back to my Apple Music version and at least heard things like "through the fields of destruction - baptism of fire" and other text bites. The overall presentation was sharper and more acoustically demanding, but with admittedly less-wide soundstage. I then switched back to the server/ROON combo and disabled all filters and upsampling, going into bit-perfect mode. But even then, the overall presentation, while admittedly more bass heavy and spacious, the singer's words were still hardly intelligible. I actually think that "Brothers in Arms" is a really good example to test for a component ability to shine light on sung or spoken words; another favorite example is Boz Scaggs' "Thanks to You", where the clearest presentation in my system comes from the LP (which is called "Dig"), followed by Quobuz.
I went back to the 2022 review of the Aeon server in Absolute Sound by Andrew Quint, where he extolls the sonic virtues of the instrument (but, like myself, did not like the lower pitch option). I trust that he could not detect the same flaws as I did, albeit streaming from ROON as well.
I understand that ROON emerged from the previous SONOS company. A good friend of ours was one of the first SONOS adopters some 30 years ago, but I never liked it in a musicality sense, especially the gooey bass. To me it always sounded like Musak. So, I might be a bit prejudiced here, because what I am hearing now from ROON is as "pleasing" as the old SONOS; kinda lounge character, but not really stirring or attention-grabbing.
So, I would like to hear the unvarnished truth from this illustrious audience, what their experience with ROON is in terms of musicality and neutral/natural presentation, especially if they can offer some kind of A/B comparison from their own listening experience. As I said, I have zero previous experience with ROON, and might just be a bit biased here.
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This is exactly what I and some others have been saying, Roon and every music player app has it's own specific requirements for use of streamer resources. Roon consumes relatively high level of cpu resources due to it's intensive and complex user interface. I have great sound with Roon due to my two streamer setup and powerful processor in streamer running Roon Core. I'm using less than 1% capacity on 7 cores in this custom streamer, this means virtually no noise being produced by this streamer. Other streamer optimized and designed to only run Roon Endpoint, again virtually no noise produced by this streamer.
I've been directly comparing streaming music vs over 3k cd rips on NAS for years, took many years optimizing entire streaming chain to equal sound quality of cd rips. I also turn off or minimize all the superfluous Roon processes like volume leveling, dsp, library analysis, this minimizes cpu usage. |
Thank you all for thoughtful answers to my original question. The majority of you seems to agree that there is no ROON sound per se, because "bits are bits", or shall I rather say: there CAN’T be a specific ROON sound. I am not sure, and I don’t want to offend anyone, but have you actually listened to a direct stream from Qobuz or Native DSD, and then listened to the identical track through ROON? Well I have, which prompted my original question. I came down to accept the suggestion of some of you that it is my streamer that is adding colorations, and not the data coming from ROON. Well, I just came across a review of the 2024 version of the Ideon Absolute Stream Meta Edition server by Jason Victor Serinus (whose ears and writings I trust) [Stereophile Vol 47 No11 (November 2024), p.81], wherein he prefers the sound coming directly from Qobuz processed by Ideon’s own software over a ROON stream. Here is what he says: " How can different software sound different, even when it’s serving the same digital data? By running quieter." He then cites an engineer (Mr. Vamos) from Ideon: " Ideon did a test with a downloaded track. Their (Ideon’s, my addition) software’s CPU was using around 5% of its total capacity to play it, but ROON required 30% to 60% of CPU capacity to play the same track. That’s because ROON is working continuously while playing, searching for every single version of the track, including cover versions and live versions". " More CPU means more electronic noise" (JVS). "ROON has all these processes running in the background that do not help the sound. If you play Qobuz without going through ROON , the sound quality goes up quite a bit" (Vamos); (end of citations). Could this be the explanation for what I am hearing? I played FLAC files from my own library (from my MacBook Air to my server, or even directly to my DAC), and then the same tracks from ROON, and I could clearly hear a difference: the music coming from ROON felt like it coming through light cotton earplugs: not un-pleasant by any means, rather like "deliberately pleasant" for lack of another word, or hard candy vs. caramel, or shellac finish on an old piece of furniture vs. polyurethane). In any case, yes, bits are bits, but how they are being handled either by hardware or by packaging software seems to have an audible influence on the sound. In the same vein: the manufacturer of my 432EVO Aeon streamer told me about his plans to widen the scope of compatible software to other providers, such as Audirvana and HQPlayer, because of their sound quality. BTW: I am getting used to the ROON sound, especially when we have guests with no particularly "golden ears", its phenomenal data packages and quick retrieval is indeed very nice. If I really want to listen "into the music", like a Bach cello sonata, I return to vinyl anyway. |
That is mistaken. Qobuz uses TCP/IP - there is nothing proprietary about it. There really is no "stream," but rather packets that are loaded into cache prior to playback.
It's TCP/IP. The protocol requires retransmission of a faulty packet. |
The important thing about bits is not that they are bits, it is that when they are mis-read, they can be corrected. Can be, not must be, or always are. The internet does provide a protocol, Transport Control Protocol or TCP, which guarantees that a file can be (eventually) delivered in perfect condition. But the internet also provides another protocol, User Datagram Protocol, which does not guarantee completeness, accuracy or delivery but does try to get the bits out in time. While Qobuz, for example, say they use TCP, they start playback before the stream has finished using their own proprietary protocol. How do they know which packets have errors, or have been dropped completely, and how do they ask for re-transmission? How often can they do this before the stream stops? Same questions for Roon. Next, USB. USB does not guarantee bit-perfect transmission WHEN USED FOR STREAMING. When set for data transfer, it does not guarantee timing. Ethernet - same story. Ethernet on its own does not guarantee packet delivery, nor accuracy, nor timing. Fortunately, it is usually fast enough for higher level protocols to make up these deficiencies, but what protocols do Qobuz, Roon etc use on top of Ethernet? Seems to me these protocols are kept very proprietary! I2S? Never designed for data transmission beyond two chips on a board, I2S has no error detection built in, let alone error correction. At least it has timing. Bear in mind that the bits streaming from a spinning CD need about a 2k buffer just to detect and correct errors. By design, 4,000 consecutive wrong bits can be corrected - an astonishing feat for 1982 technology. This is before the stream emerges as PCM. Of course, if the streamed bits can be captured to a computer file, that file can be accurately compared to any other file purporting to contain the same bits. If they match perfectly, then I accept that bits are bits in that instance. |
IMO, I don't think there is a "ROON" house sound. I'm in the camp that bits are bits Being a ROON user for several years, I did have the chance to switch hardware around (Macs, then dedicated streamer) and all resulted in a change in sound, However, i believe it is the hardware that is causing all this. True, that ROON has settings that allows one to tailor their musical preferences., but I believe this is Roon way to let's its users adjust one's personal preferences, and NOT a house sound. With that being said, IMO, it is the corresponding hardware synergy and components that creates what we hear. I think that the DAC played the most important role in the digital arena that streaming plays in. |
The ROON sound sounds like sucking...cause it's a terrible company who's vaunted Nucleus + could not handle my library It took ROON 15 months to tell me that (due to possibly the worst customer service model that exists for a product) And I would have been fine with that ...until they refused to refund my $$$ for the Nucleus ...they blamed my library ...though I've never seen anything in their advertisements about it not being able to handle some libraries Thanks for listening ...still gets me jacked up 2 years later ..thank the Lord for Innuos Sense |
@reimarc You may want to look at your ROON Settings/Audio and select a different device. You should not need to use AirPlay for Roon in your system as indicated in your last post. "ROON via ApplePlay (FLAC)" I don't think Roon has a sound per se but Roon can sound different than other inputs on a particular endpoint. It will very much be device specific. |
@reimarc You have it confused, bits are bits and the need for greater CPU resources are not opposite sides of the argument, rather they go hand in hand. We receive bit perfect data at our modems, it is OUR entire streaming chains that provide the variable sound quality, the streamer likely having the greatest influence.
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There should not be a degree of difference you described. I’ve used roon and native streaming with few streamers and your observations indicate there is definitely a problem somewhere. Most likely with Evo. |
audphile1 Thanks for your suggestions. I did exactly how you describe it (no apples vs. oranges): the USB signal either directly from my Mac or from the EVO goes into the MSB USB/Optical converter module, and the fiber optic cable runs into my DAC (at the opposite end of the room). And yes, I am not using any DSP/upsampling from either source, just as you said. The MSB Discrete is a fabulous DAC using the proprietary R2R technology that makes this brand so outstanding in terms of musicality and yet precision (I used their flagship Premier Platinum Signature for years, but it would not handle DSD).If you look at this thread, there are quite a few members who share my listening experience with ROON, albeit maybe not so pronouncedly. I am in communication with the gentleman in Belgium who gave us the EVO: he too feels that ROON might be not the last word in clarity; so he is writing new firmware for another very popular audiophile player as we speak. There might also be an EVO-specific sound at play: your Aurender server is well known for its clarity and transparency (the MSB brothers use it at their homes), while others call it too lean. The reviews of the EVO describe its sound as very "musical" and "comforting" (using the ROON player). There might be also a personal preference at play here. In any case, Frederic (the designer of the EVO) graciously agreed to have a look at my unit paying particular attention at the USB output patine, which might be faulty. We will see. As to my initial question: the members who say that there is no such thing as a ROON sound ("bits are bits") are on one side, while others say that the more CPU engagement a player program needs, the more the sound suffers. I am a novice when it comes to computer audio, and hence cannot say who is right or wrong. Moreover, I might indeed not have completely optimized my signal path yet. As for now: vinyl still rules IMHO. [MacBook Air with M1 chip; 432EVO Aeon server with shielded Ethernet connection directly to a Comcast router; ROON via ApplePlay (FLAC), or Apple Music (ALAC), or Audirvana, or HQPlayer (for DSD as DoP); MSB USB/fiber-optic connection; MSB Discrete DAC; Supratek Grange preamp; Linkwitz Labs Powerbox (x2) active crossover and N2Core amplification (x 10 total); Linkwitz LX521 active channel (5x2) open baffle speakers; all non-digital cables and connectors home-made 9N silver solid core]. |
@reimarc just compared the same Dire Straits track (one kf my favorite DS songs) using same Qobuz album played on my Aurender N200 streamer using it’s proprietary DSP controlled via Aurender Conductor app to using the N200 as a Roon end point. All else being equal. Both native and Roon sound excellent with Roon slightly rounder around the edges but without compromising the mids where vocals live. There’s no struggle to hear Mark’s lyrics despite his very soft singing on this track. Here’s my analysis of your problem based on reading your post… You are comparing two different sources - Evo and Mac. I don’t know how Evo is connected to your MSB DAC but I assume the Mac is connected using USB? And the Evo is connected via its coax/spdif? Can you clarify? MSB should not be fed upsampled/modified data stream. Rely on MSB to do its task properly and feed it original signal. You should also use the exact same type of connection. Use USB from Evo into MSB and allow the MSB clock to take control. Don’t compare 🍏 to 🍊. Switch completely to Evo using the usb cable you used with the Mac. Does your MSB Discrete have a network module to configure the DAC as a roon end point without using Evo? If so, try that as well. If your results are still consistent with smothered presentation lacking in clarity wheb you’re running Evo, I would suggest returning the Evo and using Roon core on Mac and stream directly to MSB using its network module. That’s my take on it. Good luck! |
I actually needed Roon to tell me what music is. Still confused. Need help. |
Music apps don't assemble the bits, they simply copy the audio files they're supplied with bit for bit. The entire difference in music app sound quality begins at our modems, ends at streamer output. Streamers are largely responsible for sound quality differences between music apps, generally speaking, apps with more elaborate user interface will require more processor power which means providing more elaborate means to suppress noise.
We have a wide variety of responses in evaluations of Roon and other music player apps. If Roon does indeed provide inherently poor sound quality how could so many find it provides fine sound quality. In my own case I've directly compared it to the proprietary music player my OS provides, and cd rips on NAS, Roon superior to proprietary app and equal to the rips. Seems curious Roon streams would equal cd rips SQ if Roon alters the bits in some mysterious manner. |
The only software that can provide for differences in sound quality is OS run on streamers. Higher end streamer manufacturers expound much energy on optimizing and developing proprietary OS, they understand benefits derived from this. Harmonizing OS with the specific hardware chosen is key for optimal performance. As for the proprietary music players some streamer manufacturers provide, I would fully expect this to provide superior sound quality to the generalist music players such as Roon, Audirvana etc. To get optimal SQ from Roon you need to provide a streaming chain optimized for Roon, and this goes for every single music player app.
Again, there is no inherent sound quality to ANY music player app, BITS IS BITS! There is another thread running concurrently to this in respect to determining if audio files are somehow changed/corrupted traveling the world wide internet. Again, they are not, BITS IS BITS. So, if we accept bits is bits, do people actually believe these music player apps are manipulating bits somehow in the transfer of audio files provided by the record companies or whoever owns those audio files? |
When I first evaluated Roon (almost a decade ago), I evaluated it against Audirvana (both installed on my Apple MacBook Pro with a directly attached USB DAC) and found Roon's sound quality to be lacking in that comparison. This article explains why: https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/sound-quality What I learned: if you want the best results, start by following the manufacturer's instructions. After I adopted the distributed architecture and network topology that Roon Labs recommends, sound quality and reliability from Roon matches or exceeds all other alternatives that I've tried. No, There is no "Roon sound." However, to get the most out of it (like most things in this hobby), it must be set up properly. |
I’ve been streaming for over 20 years now with many different software applications: Apple iTunes in the early 2000’s, amarra, pure music, audirvana, lightning ds, lumin, (using upnp and minimserver), roon, and Qobuz connect. 20 years ago I got rid of my $3500 Classe cd player because ripped music sounded better than from a cd. I still have my 20+ year old Sony SACD player which still sounds good but I’ve used it 5 times in the last 15 years. Software does effect the sound quality as does the hardware and OS you are running it on. All the software up until auralic’s lightning DS ran on a Mac, I ran lightning ds and the lumin software on the Auralic Aries streamer/server. In the last 2 weeks, my airlens streamer got a new firmware upgrade for Qobuz connect and Connect sounds better than roon, again not subtle since my friends all indicated this sounded better. Right now, I can’t live with the Connect app, plus I have thousands of cds ripped to my server that connect can’t access. If Connect updates their gui, I might migrate to that in the future, but since I have ripped dsd files and Roon still sounds good, I’m using roon. I sold my $15k TT setup/phono preamp and hundreds of vinyl albums because my digital setup sounded better. |
@ghdprentice +101Dalmations Been there. Done that. Macbook then off on the ladder up. |
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>>Incorrect, it was Sooloos. ’
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Thats right. For absolute critical listening on some recordings my little Bryston BDP Pi will best my ROON set up. QOBUZ ROON: Core running SGC i5 upsampling then to the Bryston BDP as an endpoint. The Bryston can stop MPD and Start Roon endpoint with a single click and vice/versa. Not reboot. I use ROON for general listening and if I hear something I really want to dig deep on I will flip over and listen with MPD. Sometimes it sounds better and other times sounds the same. Might be just the state of my ears at the time.
But when I first started with ROON I had core on an iMAC wireless. Sound Stage was flat as a pancake. Currently its SGC with Core and Bryston BDP hardwired to a mesh node with upgraded network cables (can’t remember brand) |
Running Roon Nucleus with LPS and custom DC cable as core and using my Cinnamon Audio Galle streamer as an end point. Qobuz only, no stored files, no DSP use. Compared this to Jplay on the Galle and it was not even close. Roon sounded poor in comparison. Not even close. Roon sounded dull, rounded and flat in comparison. My wife said we lost some 10-20% of the music. Same exact outcome with this Roon set up vs Sense on my previous Innuos Pulsar. Just my actual findings. I am a lifetime Roon member and love the app! I just have not liked the sound compared to Jplay and Sense on my streamers. |
B I N G O (Bango Bongo) @reimarc It’s the routers, switches, filters and cables that contribute to sound/noise along with streamier/DAC It’s the entire set up aka ‘the chain”
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I don’t hear a difference. The easy way to check this if your DAC has multiple inputs. Play a CD on the S/PDIF input on your DAC and play the same track simultaneously on your DAC’s Streamer input (USB or whatever). On my PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. (MK1). I don’t hear a difference. I use a Matrix USB to I2S DDC for streaming, and the other I2S input has the PS Audio Perfectwave Universal Transport connected to it. No audible difference to my 55 1/2 yr. old ears ! Just sit back, relax , & "Enjoy The Music" |
I often see comments that claim Roon sound quality changes as they institute the regular Roon upgrades, can't say that I've ever detected change in SQ. As for the SQ differences between music player apps, bits are bits, based on this all music player apps should sound alike. I'd suggest differences due to the apps use of processing power within streamer, greater use of streamer resources means self generated noise in streamer. Roon's relatively complex interfaces requires more processing vs some others which suggests one should use extremely fast processors with low latency to extract max SQ from Roon. I'd also suggest that's why some find Roon sounds best with two streamer setup. I'm using less than 1% usage on 8 core cpu for streamer running Roon Core, this means both low latency and minimal noise, Endpoint runs on streamer specifically designed for this exact purpose, again low noise, low latency. Bottom line, all music apps SQ dependent on one's streaming setup, you receive the exact same bit perfect stream from servers/cloud, its how those bits are processed that makes the difference. |
@reimarc The internet has it all. Here’s one. |
If Roon is not presenting the sound that you prefer, I suggest you get familiar with the DSP capabilities of Roon and try a few tweaks. Since you seem to be hanging a lot on the intelagability of the lyrics by Mark Knopfler, then I think you might start in the mid range Boosting a little here and there until you zero in on your particular sweet spot. Before you dismiss this approach as “artificial“ consider the fact that swapping components, and cables, and software are really just roundabout ways, and very expensive ones at that, of doing this very thing, most of the time |
@bjesien all good here…hope you are too. GH |
Swap your word "conductor" with "squeeze" and that is exactly what I hear, using a different streamer and converter, different speakers etc. I assume Conductor is a Squeeze derivative just as Sense is, so not surprising. IMO the finest reviewer going arrives at the same conclusion regarding the "Roon sound": UPnP and RoonWhen I first reviewed CH Precision audio components in 2018, a Melco UPnP server was also provided to stream directly to the CH DAC’s network input. Subsequently, I fell for both brands, which jump-started my current line of reference equipment. Between the Melco N1A/2 and N1ZH/2, I much preferred the latter, and it soon became my reference server, combined with the CH Precision C1 DAC and its built-in streaming endpoint. But at some point, I was lured in another direction by Roon’s superb interface and endless possibilities. The thing is, compared to UPnP, Squeeze, and MPD, Roon has a deviating sound. Full-bodied, smooth, and rich in tonality, but not quite as crisp, pure, and direct compared to the aforementioned alternative formats.
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I’ve used Roon for a few years and, to my ears, I can’t really detect a significant difference between it and other streaming applications. I don’t use any the roon DSP features. By far, the greater difference in sound quality has to do with the version of the digital file that is supplied by the streaming service. |
Man, audiophile’s are something aren’t they?! It’s a file streaming on a file transfer system. They don’t manipulate the file in any way to change the sound. If there is a difference in the sound compared to say a CD or any other platform (assuming it’s truly the same file i.e. the same master) then It’s your digital front end that is mostly likely to blame. No ‘house sound’. |
@reimarc, in my humble system my Roon Nucleus server sits between a CAT6 router, two network switches in cascade, and a passive network filter on one side going in, and on the other side going out a USB cable to an SRC-DX converter, which is my Roon endpoint, and then to a single BNC cable that carries the internet signal to my Chord Hugo m scaler and on to my Chord TT2 DAC. To answer your question in short, no Roon as I employ it does not have a sound signature of its own. All the very small Intel computer in my Roon Nucleus does is pick tracks and albums from my preferred music service which is Qobuz. |
@dayglow If you mean best physical media sources as in $50K+ turntables in $500K systems I can agree. But in the $5K - $25K+ not true any more. Streaming can provide as high or higher sound quality than vinyl or CD. I own and have heard other less expensive systems where CD, Vinyl, and streaming are essentially identical. The greatest variation happening in vinyl. It is dependent on the number of pressings that have come from that stamper. Heavily used stamper will have poorer quality. |
No problems here with Roon sound. One of the many awesome things about Roon is the flexibility you have with the DSP functionality to address room acoustics and make it sound exactly right. It takes sone time and effort to properly apply a powerful tool like Roon DSP. If not happy with the sound then it’s time to get started and get a handle on things. Every listener case is different. |
Streaming music still has a good 5 years to possibly equal the best physical music sources.