I have a different set of criteria than you. First is design and I like the servo design, and the brand that uses that design is Rythmik. There may be others, not sure. Secondly, I like integration as either easy or hard. I think SVS has an app that I have heard some people like and state it works, I have not tried it. Rythmik and REL have multiple ways to adjust levels to allow the sub to match my stereo and high level/ low level connection options. Third and and not necessarily in order is - does the company have a good reputation as a whole and are they know for making subs for the application your looking for ie Home Theatre, Stereo, etc. Fourth, and this is a BIG one, how is the reputation for service and build quality. If the sub is designed well, sounds great, but the brand does not care much about fixing the sub down the road, and would rather you buy another from them... I don’t buy from that company. I have had good luck with Rythmik, but I may try either REL or another brand down the road, maybe even Vandersteen. I wouldn’t buy SVS.
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If your purchase is not driven by your budget then there isn’t anything better than a pair of REL subs for 2 channel audio. The seamless integration with your main speakers and ease of setup with High Level Neutrik Speakon connection is godsend.
Good luck with anything else out there!
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Thanks for all thoughts. All good points.
Similarly, apart from sound quality the design comes first for me. I’m bringing up specifications to suggest that subs from different manufacturers may sound closer to each other, that’s all.
Purchase not driven by budget? I guess that is only applicable to billionaires. Anyway, that is good news about the REL. I have read many good reviews on the RELs throughout the years since the early days when they were built in England, the Strata and Studio III. I just haven’t managed to try one yet. Apart from sound quality, the one aspect I like about the REL is the looks and build quality. It looks like some expensive piece of hifi equipment when compared to most subs out there. The new range with the printed text on white/silver colored drivers, the logo on the feet, small metal piece at the top and the small details all add up to the elegance of the design
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I agree wholeheartedly with @lalitk . I read about the nightmare’s people have setting up subs. Never had an issue with REL.
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@ryder
When I mentioned budget in previous post, I was referencing to decisions driven by lower cost of subs compared to REL. The REL Serie S cost more but you also get the outstanding build quality and ample watts in return.
I own a pair of Carbon Limited and found them to be more than adequate in my 15’ D x 30’ W dedicated audio room.
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@ryder , sure. If you compare a range of 12" subwoofers there is a lot of difference. The single most important factor in subs is the enclosure. It has to be stiff, non resonant and heavy. The best spec to compare is weight. The heavier subwoofer is likely to be better. What the enclosure looks like means nothing. The best subs on the market use a balanced force approach. They put two identical drivers opposite from each other in phase. The Newtonian forces cancel and the enclosure does not shake. Magico makes it's subs this way. KEF uses this technique in the Blade.
I build my own. I can make them heavier and stiffer than any company would care to for cost reasons. There are probably over 100 sub drivers on the market and many of them are excellent and even better than the units used by the manufacturers again for cost reasons.
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REL's system was created to cheaply get subs into peoples system (they don't have to buy additional items). It is a relatively poor way to do it and it fails to take advantage of a subwoofer's best advantages. People using that system should know that there are additional benefits they can grow into and really improve the performance of their system.
Rules of the Road.
Subwoofers have to be in corners or against walls.
Subwoofers have to be in phase with and time aligned with the main speakers.
Crossover should be between 80 and 100 Hz
Multiple subs in a symmetrical array are mandatory (at least two)
Bigger drivers are better. 10" is the smallest that should be used. At least four 10" subs would be needed. Two 12s will suffice.
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Similarly, apart from sound quality the design comes first for me.
Okay. I suppose that if I were coming at this from a technical point, I might feel the same. But as an audiophile, the sound quality is my first concern. I learned long ago that when theory and reality collide, reality wins every time.
But even as a designer, SQ should not give way to technical jargon IMO.
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My subs are tucked away behind furniture so appearance isn't important.I've had a Def Tech sub,a couple of Dayton subs, and now two HSUs and one SVS 2000.As you move up the line the cabinets are better quality and overall more attention to every aspect that results in improving sound quality should be obvious, not just bigger drivers and a few dbs lower.
I really like the SVS app.Adjusting everything from the listening chair is wonderful.I'm far from being tech savvy and it's incredibly easy for me.
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It is not just a rigid box design by itself, or throwing more money at it, or the latest app that carves out the contenders from the pretenders. There are three main challenges that we face. The link below and its condensed and edited article extract is one of the best reads on the issues of introducing subs into a two-channel system.
http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs- ... subwoofer/
Why Everybody Needs a Good Subwoofer……And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find
INTRO
Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers. Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers.
As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.
The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.
(1) QUALITY BUILD SUBWOOFER AMP and its POWER SUPPLY IS EXPENSIVE.
You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money.
(2) QUALITY BUILD SUBWOOFER BOX BUILD IS EXPENSIVE
Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $2000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $800 and $1200. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.
(3) JUST THROWING MORE-MONEY AT IT IS A MIRAGE, it’s the CROSSOVERS that matter
I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse.
Why? Because of their crossovers.
A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer.
The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system.
Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.
The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits.
And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive onres with well built cabinets.
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What @mijostyn said, though I disagree with some of the prioritizations mentioned here.
With subs it’s mainly about capacity, design principle and implementation. Through this structural integrity of the enclosure and overall build quality should be "sufficient," but personally I find the need to make them inert/heavy in the extreme to be unnecessary. I’m not saying rigid, heavy cabs don’t make a difference, but to which degree and at what cost (in more than one respect)? Some may find capacity and implementation the most important, others implementation mostly, and others again (like @mijostyn) stress the importance of enclosure inertness (among other things). There are different ways to attain prowess augmenting the mains in the lower octaves.
Capacity, i.e. sheer displacement area and also sensitivity is very important in my book. All things being equal, the less those cones move the lower the distortion, and the less power needed for a given SPL the more headroom. Headroom in the lowest frequencies is paramount (where prodigious amounts of energy can be released), because more of it equates into lower distortion and a cleaner, more effortless reproduction. To boot ample displacement gives you that important physical feel and power of music - vastly overlooked, I find.
Design principle matters. Balanced force approach has been mentioned. By far most subs today use direct radiating drivers in sealed cabs, because this way they can be made as small as possible (and the cabs more easily inert) and retain extension. It’s is the most inefficient approach though, but in multiples this can be somewhat ameliorated. Still, sealed designs have max. cone movement at the tune (contrary to vented cabs and others), and moreover the exposed, direct radiating driver is prone to emit mechanical noise - not least when working harder, which smaller drives in sealed cabs and limited numbers do. Mechanical driver noise = distortion. I prefer large, efficient designs with partially or completely hidden drivers in either horn and/or bandpass variations acting as force multipliers, and with pro drivers no less than 15" in diameter. These designs also bring "inherent" bracing to their enclosures due to horn paths and other design innards, and build in plywood not least are structurally very sound.
Implementation has been covered already. I would also stress the importance of at least two subs, stereo coupling, symmetrical-to-the-mains placement and, preferably, a cross-over no lower than 80Hz. I’m aware this usually involves the need for high-passing the main speakers, and that quite a few audiophiles are against this. Such things would be more easily demonstrated with actual demos to highlight the potential advantages (depending on the ears (and preconceptions) of those who’re listening) of such a configuration, also to narrow down the specific setup context in which the high-passing of the mains has been done - which of course matters a lot to the outcome and to prevent unnecessary generalizations either for or against HP’ing of mains.
So, it’s about choosing the designs that accommodates the above, I find, and this not least calls for the need to include DIY solutions. I’d disregard brands if it means making subs very expensive to get some minimum of physical requirements. In other words, hugely expensive subs from the likes of Magico and Wilson Audio are a waste of money if you ask me, although I’m sure others may disagree. This is below the Schroeder frequency we’re talking about, resonators meant to move air efficiently, cleanly, effortlessly and acoustically well implemented. Trying to make subs into some dubious, "sophisticated" affair akin to selling the idea of expensive, single item (well, two for stereo) small 2-way standmounts is severely sidetracked marketing B.S IMHO.
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@akg_ca , right on akg. No argument from me. I build my own subs because nobody makes one that sounds good for a reasonable price and I do not need the second rate electronics they stuff into the enclosures,
@phusis , good dissertation. I particularly like your comments on excursions. Larger drivers do not need to move far to displace air. Longer excursions always mean higher distortion. The notion that larger drivers are "slower" is mythology to the max. There is a limit as larger diaphragms are harder to control. I hold the line at 15" but for my own subs I stick to multiple 12" drivers. 15" drivers require much larger enclosures which would dominate the room.
Put your hand on the subwoofer. Any vibration you feel is distortion. Stopping it is not easy. Balanced force designs are a good start but this is not enough. Bass is very powerful and stopping all resonance in an enclosure is not easy. The only commercial units I know of that do it successfully are the Magico Q series.
Digital crossovers with delay management and room control are a godsend for subwoofers. They make integration soooo much easier. Another big plus for subwoofer performance are balanced mono amps you can place behind or next to the subs with long signal cables and very short speaker wires. Damping and control of the driver are greatly improved.
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I’d much rather have two good subs than one great one unless you’re planning on adding another great sub in the near future. That’s all I got. Best of luck.
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Try HSU subs for the money they are hard to beat for cost to sound ratio.
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Wow! Learning so much from this thread! Crosovers, cost to sound ratio! So much to learn!!
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Here’s a question I haven’t seen properly addressed - Are there any subs that can properly keep up with full range ribbon speakers? My understanding is there isn’t due to excursion delays that only increases the larger the subs. I don’t necessarily think subs are needed with my Apogees, but I try to always stay open to what I don’t truly know firsthand and haven’t yet auditioned. The ultimate proof is always with the ears.
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Very few subwoofers go really deep. Most are good to somewhere in the mid-30hz range. Once listeners experience the octave below regular subwoofers - down into the mid to upper teens hz, then that becomes the goal.
It pretty much requires a custom subwoofer build and a lot of speaker surface area.
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Okay but, can they be fast like a stat?
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Whilst agreeing with many viewpoints some are contradictory, worst sub I ever had was a massive and expensive Sony, completely useless for music simply dominated everything at even the lowest volume. That heaviest is best is in my experience a fallacy, just too much retained energy to be musical. Lighter weight can actually be an advantage, Wharfedale made speakers out of a very light material, I think called Areolam? This means the cabinet is so light it has negligible effect as almost no energy is stored. There is more than 1 solution. I tries lots and essentially found that most around the same price performed similarly, no they didn't 'sound' the same but that's OK neither do your speakers. In the end I settled on 2 Definitive Technology Supercube 4000's, small and great for placement, quick enough to be musical, very important in my system, controllable via remote with a great display, tracks and albums vary greatly the same volume and crossover frequencies do not suit all sources or equipment, some subs cope with digital sources but sound awful with vinyl. And I got them half price, no not the best at their advertised price but at half of that nothing else came near. Had the both now for over 10 years, never missed a beat (pun intended).
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["lalitk: If your purchase is not driven by your budget then there isn’t anything better than a pair of REL subs for 2 channel audio. The seamless integration with your main speakers and ease of setup with High Level Neutrik Speakon connection is godsend."]
Opinions vary.
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as far as I'm concerned the rel subs are the most musical and the easiest to integrate with your main speakers they make everything much more open and three-dimensional.
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@akg_ca - My understanding is that getting that high pass crossover just right is difficult and can be expensive. The manufacturer of my speakers and subs suggested simply blending in the subs at a low frequency and letting my mains roll-off, which they do below 40 Hz, even though the subs have a built-in crossover. He suggested this because he knows I use the set up solely for reproduction of music. If it were a HT set up, he might have recommended using the sub's internal crossover. Fortunately my 650 wpc amps have enough power to still sound good without rolling off the mains.
Vandersteen makes two high pass crossovers that I could try. Unfortunately, the more expensive M7-HP model rolls frequencies off below 100 Hz, which is a little high for where I want to be with my subs and mains, and they list at $3,300/pair. I would be more interested at around 50Hz and less than $1,000/pair.
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Used RELs...works for me.
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Hello Ryder I have had many subs , a perfect example was ihad the Svs SB 3000
i bought the SB 4000. It was just more powerful and ease in the Baer more articulate , notnight and day , but enough to sell the sb 3000
i had my brothers Svs ultra 16 which is the big brother to the sb400 and it was slightly better still but too big for my space being almost 2 ft deep and over 200 lbs
the driver in the sb 3000 is around 24 pounds,the sb4000 44 pounds , and cabinet much more ridged it weighs 102 lbs , the Svs App is excellent and allows you to adjust bass on the fly ,for many recordings either have too muchbsss or not enough.
where Rel are not sealed ,they are more efficient ,less power for they are like a semi port, using a passive radiator firing down , Sealed boxes have a bit better control comparing , in my friends system hisJL audio Fathom 12 , with true auto room correction with Mike you just plug in $5 k retail it should be special ,,
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Given the OP's assumptions, I would expect the answer to be "no"
(although I have not done my own comparisons or seen any reports that address these issues). The reason I say "no" is that, given the physics of low frequency sound, the designer doesn't face all the challenges faced by designers of main loudspeakers to control sound wave dispersion and tonal response.
So, given 3 different brands of 12" front-firing non-ported subs, all with good stiff cabinets and high-quality drivers, could the average user consistently tell the difference across a wide variety of music? I kinda doubt it. I doubt REL's high level connection, per se, or Rythmik's servo design, per se, makes all that much difference to SQ. Or not nearly as much as the effects of different high-quality main speakers on the sound of the female voice or a piano through the midrange. That is my expectation, anyway.
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The good thing about Rythmick subs is they are down the street from me in Austin for easy pick up. The bad thing about all the other brands is I have to pay dearly to get those big heavy bad boys shipped to me. Guess what brand dual subs I have.
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some very knowledgeable replies on this thread.
I have an old Richard Lord REL , Stentor III, 55kg horn loaded , beautiful cabinet. it's-6db at 13hz. just a 10inch long throw driver. wish I had room for 2 but in my 14ft by 22ft by 10ft room it does a fantastic job with a lyngdorf tdai3400 and jern 14eh standmounts.
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@mitch2
Yes… VANDERSTEEN subs are terrific with their high-end crossovers. I’m hoping to upgrade mine to their current model as my next sub at some time in the near future.
There is a 2nd part to the edited review I posted before. It highlights the prior VANDY model sub that is now upgraded further .
because @mitch2 nailed it, I am now posting that 2nd bit that zeroes in why VANDERSTEEN subwoofers with their crossovers and design are a rare breed and top performer.
Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer.
“…. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal. So how does Vandersteen do it? Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more! No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.
So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass.
A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass.
Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.
But there is a problem here as well. Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers.
This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers. The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension.
Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!
After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music. Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts. This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen. It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks. And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments. Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.
Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.
The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.
So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations…”
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Put the Dynaudio 18s on your list, Dual opposed 9 in drivers in a sealed enclosure.
$1800 and great value...
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@akg_ca Spot on
It’s simple to add a first order passive HP to roll the lows out of the mains. The -3dB point should be slightly above the mains’ anechoic -3dB. Doing so effectively doubles the power available for the rest of the spectrum. Polystyrenes, while hard to find today, are preferred.
That being said, most subs today are missing some of the necessary controls
- Multiple LP slopes
- Multiple XO ’flavors’: LR, BE, BU...
- Continuous phase control
- Polarity inversion
- Delay
- Sufficient mass to prevent ’strolling’ on non-rigid floors above crawl spaces or on second+ stories
The Martin Logan X series has some of the above. The rest can added, if necessary, with external DSP. A failing of the ML series, other than Chinese origin, is insufficient mass. 10kg weights, while not particularly Audio Salon, are effective:
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Today if one isn't managing their subs with DSP control then I'd say you aren't getting the most out of it. A well regarded pair of subs, properly integrated with DSP and dialing in the positioning will be a high percentage of having "good subs".
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Excellent thread.
Unledd I missed it the room is as important as the sub. The room (acoustics) are covalent to sub/speaker sound.
Also subs are like spice; some like a lot and some like just a tad.
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Unledd I missed it the room is as important as the sub. The room (acoustics) are covalent to sub/speaker sound.
The room becomes less of a factor the more subs you add. With a swarm (4 subs) the room becomes almost a non issue.
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@ieales
It’s simple to add a first order passive HP to roll the lows out of the mains.
Are you speaking about a line-level HP filter like the Vandersteen M7-HP High-Pass Filter? If that is so easy or simple, then why does the M7-HP appear to consist of multiple components assembled on a circuit board at a price of $3,300/pair?
I am not challenging your comment but rather trying to understand. The quality of a line-level HP filter is so important because the entire signal going to the main speakers passes through it. I doubt the HP filters provided in most subs are of a sufficient quality to handle that task without affecting the sound of the main signal in some way. The M7-HP filter (i.e., balanced line-level) is exactly what I need except I would want the pass frequency at 50Hz instead of 100Hz, and I would like to pay less than $3,300.
Based on the sonic benefit of relieving the main amplifier of reproducing the lowest level signals when subs are used, I am surprised there are not more aftermarket products like the Vandersteen filters or more information about how to construct a high pass filter using high quality parts. At least one manufacturer includes a HP filter input in their amplifiers - the Aesthetix Atlas, but I know nothing about the quality of that filter. Do you know of any websites where I might learn more about constructing a line-level filter like the M7-HP?
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The room becomes less of a factor the more subs you add. With a swarm (4 subs) the room becomes almost a non issue.
No it doesn’t. The work done by Toole is for even bass everywhere, not accurate bass anywhere.
It’s simple to add a first order passive HP to roll the lows out of the mains.
Are you speaking about a line-level HP filter like the Vandersteen M7-HP High-Pass Filter?
No, an inline filter between pre- and power amps. THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING BUT WIRE BETWEEN THE POWER AMP OUT AND THE LS DRIVER TERMINALS. If everyone would multi-amp, the world would be a better place... and a lot of cable controversy would evaporate. I shudder every time I think about rollercoaster speaker phase response. 😢 Doubly so when tube amps are mentioned. The math makes my head spin. 😕
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I have a small system near field listening with Canton 9k 2 way stand mounted so I purchased an SVS sb 1000 pro before the price increase. I emailed Canton in Germany and asked the best frequency range to set the cross over and they got back to me the next day (impressive between 50 and 60 hz 24 dB roll-off ) I do not have the luxury to do the craw to optimize the placement of the sub they sit next to the cantons. Why, my family considerations hold sway on placement and size and I suspect in most homes this is true the tail does not wag the dog.
the SVS app has quite a bit of flexibility and control ( read about it) and you make changes at your listening position (sweet). The sub can be easily and seamlessly integrated with the Cantons.
Having said all this what I experience is dictated by what's playing upstream that is to say some CDs have great bass other CDs not so much. Consequently, my sub can sound boomy and muddy as well as crisp and tight based on the CD being played. Be that as it may, in all cases the SVS sb1000 pro is a bit underpowered currently set at 9+ out of 10 on its power output. I should have gotten the next size up but again I was told no big ugly boxes and you spent how much on those things. Ah, the price of domestic tranquility.
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@ieales - Maybe I do not understand.
The Vandersteen M7-HP is in fact "an inline filter between pre- and power amps". It has an XLR input and output and is intended to be situated between the preamp and the power amp. The purpose would be to roll off the bass frequencies before they are sent to be amplified by the main amplifier and sent to the main speakers. A separate full-frequency line-level feed would then be sent from the preamp to the line level inputs on the subwoofers where their internal low-pass filter would determine the HF cut-off. In essence, this type of set-up is multi-amping because you have one amplifier powering the main speakers and the internal subwoofer amplifiers powering the subs.
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After having read most of the posts regarding subs and despite what mijostyn wrote about REL subs, I can state unequivocally that the one thing almost everybody seems to agree on in this forum is that REL subs are very good. A negative comment about REL subs is very, very rare. And this comes from someone who does not own an REL sub myself, I own the Bower and Wilkens PV1D, which is a two bass driver design that delivers quite a bit of punch.
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I have an old Richard Lord REL , Stentor III, 55kg horn loaded , beautiful cabinet. it’s-6db at 13hz. just a 10inch long throw driver. wish I had room for 2 but in my 14ft by 22ft by 10ft room it does a fantastic job
A lot of people advocate a minimum of 2 subs but some rooms (including mine) can’t accommodate more than 1 either due to the size or arrangement. Nevertheless, there are reports that one sub can work very well, and there are few who use a single high end sub in their systems to great effect.
Instead of creating a new thread on experiences with a single subwoofer, I’ll just post this here. Have a look at the photo below which is taken from another forum. This is the top of the the line REL No. 25. The sub looks small as the speakers are huge in real life, weighing in at more than 200 pounds each.
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My take on this question is that the answer depends on what you are expecting the sub to do. In my case I am running a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers full range and using a late 90's 15" Velodyne (servo design) sub to fill in the bottom octave. It is forgiving in placement and integrates perfectly. I've got the sub crossed over at 40 hz (it's lowest setting) and most of the time it just sits there and does nothing. But play Thanks To You by Boz Scaggs and and my tummy turns into a bowl of jello. When I play this for people their jaw drops. Playing the Thiels full range means that the mid-low bass on up is tight and natural.
I have thought about getting a new sub but my current setup is so good that I'm not sure how it would be improved. If I were trying to integrate a sub with a pair of bookshelf speakers it would be a whole different story.
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My subs are also crossed over at about 40Hz but I can immediately tell when they are not turned on, which happens occasionally when I turn them off to insert new wire or make other changes and then forget to turn them back on. Even at 40Hz, they seem to make a large difference in the quality of the sound from my system. One feature I like about my Aerial SW-12 subs is the remote volume control, which allows me to easily adjust the sub/bass level by +1 or +2 when listening at low levels. At more realistic listening levels, the 0 setting works great.
I did find another HP filter option that should cost less then the Vandersteen M7-HP. It is the Marchand Electronics, Inc. XM446 Fully Balanced high pass filter. I would be interested to hear pros and cons from any who have tried it, and particularly the sonic impact on the signal passing through the filter.
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@mitch2
Sorry, I was lazy and did not look up the M7-HP. IMO, it’s overly complex and definitely overpriced. I eschew as many connections as possible. DIP switches have no- place/nowhere in an audio cct.
I’m talking about a simple passive HP for the mains and direct connect to subs.
The capacitor values are for the main amp and calculated C = 1 / ( 2 * π * f * R )
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@ieales - Thank you.
That is exactly the type of project I was looking for. I would need it to be balanced.
The trade-off of course is whether the benefit of relieving the main amp/speakers of reproducing the lowest frequencies is greater than whatever detriment results from passing the signal through the HP componentry. Marchand Electronics offers a balanced version (XM446XLR-A) for $525.
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Let’s cover the facts.
There are other less costly options for Vandersteen high pass filters, four in fact. Six if one were to count the built in high pass filters in the M5 and M7 amplifiers. The crowd that thinks a Vandersteen high pass filter is overly complex flunked resonance control of big drivers and tanking circuit elimination classes… IF you think you can hear around the DIP switch, simple jumpers soldered in circuit will take care of that…
I run 2 systems w Vandy subs including the new Sub3 with M5 Kento grade high pass filters and another with M7 speakers and M7 amplifiers…..
Not the only way to fly…but it works for me…
Jim
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Forgot to mention ALL the Vandy filters include DBS with a battery to keep those hard to form caps fully formed…more science…..
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The trade-off of course is whether the benefit of relieving the main amp/speakers of reproducing the lowest frequencies is greater than whatever detriment results from passing the signal through the HP componentry.
There is no comparison. If you were adventurous, you could simply add the caps to the main amp input. Driver/box low end interaction problems simply disappear. The mains gain a large increase in mid-bass fidelity and articulation.
The Marchand look like decent units, but more complex than required. Another is Xkitz Electronics.
It’s not difficult to assemble a first order passive and with good parts, it’s 100% effective and nearly failure proof.
@tomic601
Replace some decade old dip switches. It’s usually pretty audible.
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I don't know how you can beat REL subwoofers. Their high-level connection is genius. I would recommend a pair and as large as you can afford. Nothing worse than detecting the subwoofers. Nothing worse than hearing a thumping bass. They take a while to dial them in, but they help to create a larger sound stage.
Bass frequencies fall off abruptly at lower listening volumes. Adding powered subs allows them to play at lower volumes and still hear the bass. This is nice when having people over so you can talk.
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mitch2,
Exactly what I am looking into doing, the simplest design possible, using quality parts of course. Much easier that replacing op amps, caps, etc without having a schematic, to change freq and have a cleaner signal on the sub amps crossover I am using. I will have to work out the value of the caps which I likely have on hand, the rest is quite easy. Since my mains roll off below 70 hz I will have to aim for that point but will try above and below it as well.
Sub amp is AB but unfortunately mono, wish I could fit two of them or have two smaller mono amps but it is a decent amp, more than enough power and has variable phase, Q, single band EQ. Only issue is the op amps are moderate in quality and the crossover is a fixed slope of 12db at 80hz. I have been looking into swapping op amps to higher grade, caps, etc and changing freq to 70hz etc...but a passive is so much easier, and I can go from the DAC (R2R in the near future) directly to the tube amp without going through an op amp.
Rick
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high-level connection is genius
No, it isn't as it does nothing to clean up the mains' low end. The interference between the mains and subs makes the bottom nebulous.
I'm sure all those extra connections and wire are destroying the sound 😉
Negative comments on REL SQ or build quality do seem to be rare.
Not many have heard properly integrated low end in a home HiFi.
Far too many sub integrations lean toward MORE, not BETTER. As a composer pal once remarked in my room "EVERY other subwoofer I've heard just boomed!"
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