Is There A Big Difference Between Subwoofers From Different Manufacturers

?? lost in the question

I have a different set of criteria than you. First is design and I like the servo design, and the brand that uses that design is Rythmik. There may be others, not sure. Secondly, I like integration as either easy or hard. I think SVS has an app that I have heard some people like and state it works, I have not tried it. Rythmik and REL have multiple ways to adjust levels to allow the sub to match my stereo and high level/ low level connection options. Third and and not necessarily in order is - does the company have a good reputation as a whole and are they know for making subs for the application your looking for ie Home Theatre, Stereo, etc. Fourth, and this is a BIG one, how is the reputation for service and build quality. If the sub is designed well, sounds great, but the brand does not care much about fixing the sub down the road, and would rather you buy another from them... I don’t buy from that company. I have had good luck with Rythmik, but I may try either REL or another brand down the road, maybe even Vandersteen. I wouldn’t buy SVS.

@phusis 

Water under the bridge, let’s move on and be happy with our choices and the chosen path to enjoy music. 

@lalitk --

I see no sense in arguing with you further, nothing good is going to come out of it.

Except..

Remember it was you who engaged me, it was you who felt the need to advocate and pitch the superiority of DIY designs.

No, I didn’t engage you; I challenged/called out the general standings of commercial subs as being limited to mostly smaller, lower efficiency sealed designs, hereby forgoing a breadth of larger and more efficient design variations that more readily accommodates physics and, in effect, performance - unless a multitude of sealed subs with larger drivers (12" on up) are used. Surely I didn’t need to know the specifics of you and your setup to allow myself to engage in that subject? But now that you mention it I did look up your system, and it looks (and I’m sure sounds) beautiful - truly.

I couldn’t care less or more, cause I already expressed where I stand when it comes to commercial vs DIY subs. Next time you chose to engage someone here or another forum, learning first what they have posted and their beliefs will help you save time and embarrassment. It’s also called ’knowing your audience’ which involves identifying the audience and adapting a speech to their interests, level of understanding, attitudes, and beliefs.

How far do you think I’m going to succeed by pitching an idea of DIY cables to a guy who has a full loom of Nordost Odin or Synergistic Research SRX?

As per my paragraph just above. You’re pulling an ad hominem here, so let’s leave it at that.

My suggestion to start your own thread was based on your posts here and after reading your system bio. I knew exactly which camp you belong to and I respect your chosen path. It’s time that you open your mind to the fact that not everyone out there is inclined to build their own subs. Some of us are just happy with our choice of commercially build subs, irrespective of brand and price of admission.

As most who post here don’t go DIY with their subs implementation it seems to me trying to counter the commercial majority with a minority DIY approach for core physics-reasons outlined earlier isn’t uncalled for. You yourself called for "objectivity" in this discussion, and following an analysis (not least with poster @mijostyn's contributions) of design variations, overall implementation with the use of DSP tools in addition to build rigidity strikes me as accommodating just that. I hope focusing on these aspects tells one a thing or two about or puts into perspective to which degree (i.e.: relatively little) commercial sub brands may differ sonically, or at least that’s my assessment.

I know full well many if not most go the commercial route with subs, and I respect that - your choices as well, obviously. I’ve been there myself, done that. Not saying I drew out the most of its potential, but only so many iterations needed to convince me to search elsewhere, go active, include a separate DSP, high-pass the mains and a DIY route with subs to include design options practically not found in commercial offerings. And that’s that. Thanks for your time.

To answer the OP's question very literally, there is one sub which is VERY different from ALL other subs: The Servo-Feedback OB/Dipole Subwoofer, a joint effort between Danny Richie of GR Research and Brian Ding of Rythmik Audio.

Different how, you ask?

Two or three (your choice) 12" woofers optimized for open baffle application, mounted in an open baffle/dipole H-frame. The woofers are powered by the Rythmik A370 plate amp, which includes Rythmik's patended servo-feedback design for woofer control. Added to the stock A370 when used in this OB/Dipole Sub, Brian Ding adds a dipole cancellation-compensation circuit.

If that description does not pique your curiosity, I don't know what would. ;-)

@phusis , You bet. I have two issues crossing at 100 Hz. The subwoofers have to be in stereo and symmetrically arranged around the main speakers and to inhibit room interaction and match the main speaker radiation pattern they have to form a linear array that extends down to 5 Hz. Because there are 4 subs technically they do form a DBA, just with additional characteristics by design to match the main speakers. 

Hi OP, I have a small SVS SB1000 PRO and a REL S2. The SVS is, in my system, superior. The REL is more expensive and this reinforces my opinion that RELs are overpriced and overrated and they are certainly not unique in accepting high-level input. REL's oft quoted ability to take on the sound of the main amp would require a sub amp that is completely without colouration, totally neutral and zero distortion, in other words: a wire with gain. There are many disagreements on these forums but all will acknowledge that such an amp as I have just described does not exist.

The S2 is also country specific meaning it is not dual voltage. I emailed REL about this and received a prompt and polite reply. "It will need to go back to the factory for a new amp" Apparently the newer models now address this issue. The phase can only be swapped 180 degrees which makes finding the best place more difficult.

The SVS has continuously variable phase and this together with volume, XO frequency and slope, also presets for movies or music and a band of PEQ with adjustable Q, all remotely done from your listening position via cell phone.

My ongoing house repairs precluded me from building the subs I wanted which are the servo units from Rhythmic/GR Research.

Ignore the joker who claims ported is better than sealed, he has that bass ackwards.

To the poster claiming 4 subs will fix all room problems, they will not. What they do is smooth out the nodes rendering the peaks less severe and filling in the nulls providing a very much improved top to bottom performance and I am a strong proponent of multi-subs..but..what about the time it takes for the sound to decay? To manage the decay time room treatment is necessary, there is no workaround and EQ can't help.

If you treat the room and employ at least 2 subs or 3 or 4  you will realise optimum performance at a level you probably did not know was possible.

Ryder, what kind of speakers are those.  They must cost a fortune.  What are you driving them with?

@phusis

I see no sense in arguing with you further, nothing good is going to come out of it. Remember it was you who engaged me, it was you who felt the need to advocate and pitch the superiority of DIY designs. I couldn’t care less or more, cause I already expressed where I stand when it comes to commercial vs DIY subs. Next time you chose to engage someone here or another forum, learning first what they have posted and their beliefs will help you save time and embarrassment. It’s also called ‘knowing your audience’ which involves identifying the audience and adapting a speech to their interests, level of understanding, attitudes, and beliefs.

How far do you think I’m going to succeed by pitching an idea of DIY cables to a guy who has a full loom of Nordost Odin or Synergistic Research SRX?

My suggestion to start your own thread was based on your posts here and after reading your system bio. I knew exactly which camp you belong to and I respect your chosen path. It’s time that you open your mind to the fact that not everyone out there is inclined to build their own subs. Some of us are just happy with our choice of commercially build subs, irrespective of brand and price of admission.

@lalitk --

May I remind you that this thread is about seeking differences between commercially build subwoofers. If you and @mijostyn wish to further portray the superiority of DIY designs then I suggest you start a new thread. Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

... One can always contribute here objectively without showcasing their own prejudice or hatred for commercial builds.

As I said, "If you ask me" and "to my mind" - these are merely my assessments, and I'm in my right to express them. Instead of conveniently asking a few guys to enter elsewhere because what they're saying rubs you the wrong way, not to mention that you feel the need to act like an admin, why not address the matter without throwing "prejudice" and "hatred" into someone's shoes?

'Objectively' is certainly not off-base when the emphasize is physics more than brands, hence why speaking of the design aspect (or their variations) - whether it's DIY or commercial - is a primary focus that implicitly connects to what the OP is inquiring about. 

@mijostyn --

Right now it is two per channel and going to 4 drivers in two cabinets for a total of 8.  All the drivers are set to form a linear array so they all work as a unit as most bass is center channel. They are however hooked up stereo because I cross up at 100 Hz. As for overdoing it the limiting factor is space. I would use 15" drivers but the enclosures would have to be so big it would be impossible to fit them in.

Makes sense. Doubling the capacity from 4 to 8 units should see worthwhile results, not least also forming a linear array this way. Is avoiding the traditional approach of DBA distributing the subs throughout the listening space due to the higher cross-over frequency? 

@lalitk , it in not prejudice or hatred , just an analysis of the problem of making subwoofers you can distribute and sell in this market. Pitifully few of us are going to spend $36K per sub on Magicos. Being cost effective and competitive means compromises a DYIer does not have to make. There are all sorts of drivers available for reasonable money. The problem is the enclosure. As an example most woofers are constructed with an MDF base in a box format. Cabinet grade plywood is twice as stiff but 4 times as expensive. A box is perhaps the worst shape to use for a subwoofer enclosure and a lot of bracing has to be done to get resonances above the frequency range of the woofer but these resonances can still be excited. The perfect enclosure would be a sphere as it is self supporting. Try crushing an egg cupping it in both hands applying even pressure. Unfortunately spheres are very difficult to make and work with. Next is a cylinder. It would be much stiffer than a box and could be machined in aluminum but it would be very expensive. Making it out of wood would require multiple laminations around a form with the seams staggered again a very expensive, labor intensive process. It might be cheaper to machine it in aluminum! There are other more complex forms that could be used such a  Decadron cylinder. 

As far as integrating subs into a system is concerned the same factors apply to all subwoofers. Many commercial subs Like some of the JL Audio units have room control and adjustable delays which is great but you have to adjust the delay by ear a very difficult way to do it but a $300 measurement microphone would cure that problem. A dedicated 2 way crossover is for all intent and purposes mandatory if you want the best performance. IMHO and that of many others using a low pass filter on the sub and crossing it in under the main speaker is a half baked at best solution.

@mijostyn

I appreciate your insight and thanks for sharing. One can always contribute here objectively without showcasing their own prejudice or hatred for commercial builds.

@lalitk , what we are talking about applies to any subwoofer and describes characteristics that others can use to evaluate commercial subs.

@Phusis, Right now it is two per channel and going to 4 drivers in two cabinets for a total of 8.  All the drivers are set to form a linear array so they all work as a unit as most bass is center channel. They are however hooked up stereo because I cross up at 100 Hz. As for overdoing it the limiting factor is space. I would use 15" drivers but the enclosures would have to be so big it would be impossible to fit them in. 

@phusis

May I remind you that this thread is about seeking differences between commercially build subwoofers. If you and @mijostyn wish to further portray the superiority of DIY designs then I suggest you start a new thread. Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

@lalitk --

... No disrespect to DIY’s community, but every DIY bloke thinks whatever ‘they’ can do, I can do it better. And please define better, what’s better or best to you or your fellow could easily be ‘good enough’ in someone else eyes. As humans we often tend to judge things based on our personal experiences and express opinions driven by our personal biases :-)

In relation to subs in particular the DIY community can have their cake and eat it too. By that I mean there're no physical restrictions other than what they impose on themselves, every design principle can be pursued - of which detailed plans are oftentimes shared for free, and the cost of assembly and parts is more manageable compared to commercial offerings - certainly with bigger subs. You can yell it to their faces all day long trying to convince them otherwise, but many if not most audiophiles would rather pay dearly for a smaller commercial package than letting size have its say via DIY (at less dough). If you ask me it's an audiophile "attitude" for main speakers that's extended, so to speak, into the sub octaves for how to realize that frequency span as well: with size restrictions (that mostly leaves you with sealed designs) and a particular attention to detail that strikes me as being more about brand identification than core physics.

So, with the lowest ~3 octaves it IS about what DIY offerings can do that commercial products can't, because size gets in the way, and to my mind that's an awfully restricted playground - expensive at that - to limit yourself to. 

@mijostyn

I wish I could find the link but is slow mo’s an 18" woofer under a strobe actually wobbling under light power. One side starts moving before the other and goes downhill from there. The excursions are not very far.

I know they wouldn’t make badass, neodymium magnet-fitted 21" pro woofers if wobbling/cone flex was an issue. What’d be an issue for them wouldn’t necessarily be one for us; let’s remember our domestic roofs would fly off over our heads if we where to test such driver at Xvar values, so it’s a practical non-issue with plenty of headroom even. These are very efficient, stiffly suspended drivers that can take from ~1.7kW on up, many of them tested at their limits in horn iterations firing into a compression chamber with uneven pressurization on the cone and huge cone stress to follow, and they eat it up.

I’m sure some drivers can driven to cone flex, but some aren’t all, and at what excursions?

I feel the most comfortable with 12" drivers and you can get to the same place by using multiples. I keep doubling the number until I get what I want. Next stop is 8.

Multiple 12’s can sound great for sure. And for your home setup you mean 8 per channel, right? I was under the impression you’ve implemented 4 per channel already.

I saw Marcus Miller and Mike Stern at the Blue Note in NYC last month and I could feel Marcus’s E string vibrate. It is that kind of authority I would like to get at home. I have great bass, just not that great. I know there are some recordings that can do it like Supertramp’s Crime of the Century or any number of Dave Holland Albums and Jaco albums not to mention Organ works.

Practically speaking I don’t believe you can really overdo bass capacity, unless the sheer volume of cabinetry becomes obtrusive acoustically. Actually, the problem is the other way ’round; the cleaner and more effortless the bass (via more displacement and efficiency) the more it can be enjoyed at proper levels in relation to the remaining audio spectrum - that’s is: you’d gain it "hotter" instead of, perhaps paradoxically, dampening poorer and more meager capacity bass performance.

Some of the vital impact of bass is diminished with central bass nulls (or suck-out) and softer floor constructions that can absorb quite a lot a of bass. In your case a column bass solution would be very appealing.

audiorusty- Good analysis and I agree. Although my favorite subs are Rythmik, Vandersteen and JL Audio

Subs are speakers too! So yeah, there are certainly differences between them. I auditioned several, well known accepted audiophile brands and chose which sounded best to me. Different ones may also have different features as well, so there's that too.

Hey ryder,

Not sure if this is the kind of information that you are looking for. In my system I am currently using 2) SVS SB4ooo's, 1) Rythmik F12SE and 1) REL S5 SHO (predecessor to the S812). In my opinion the Rythmik has a slightly better sound than the SVS and both of them are better than the REL. I had to slightly modify the REL in order for it to compete with the other two. Both the SVS and the REL have more output power than the Rythmik. The SVS was easiest to integrate due to its phone app. The Rythmik was a little more cumbersome because you had to make the adjustments at the cabinet and not the listening position and REL does not give you enough tools to properly integrate so I had to slightly compromise the integration of the SVS and the Rythmik to work with the REL. Overall I prefer the Rythmik, but I would move up at least one model size larger if not two, in order to compensate for the lower output power.

Rel subs are made as well as any commercial subwoofer.

Don't think I said anything about their build quality. My objection to them is the direction the company took. More bling and flash rather than useful features. WAF vs HPF

“Sorry for being harsh but this is the honest truth.”

@mijostyn Don’t we all have our own version of truth?

“Many people think DIY projects are second rate at best. It depends on the intelligence, experience and skill of the people involved.”

I am looking forward to your new set of subs, please do post good pictures before you hide them in the corner. My best to you!

@lalitk , I have played with several Rel subs but not in my system. Their version of sub integration is designed for the lowest common denominator and it performs like the lowest common denominator. Sorry for being harsh but this is the honest truth.

Many people think DIY projects are second rate at best. It depends on the intelligence, experience and skill of the people involved. The ability of companies to get subwoofers to market include a bunch of economic factors that do not apply to the DIY individual.

“Rel subs are made as well as any commercial subwoofer. If you are comparing them with other subs on the market. They have two issues. I hate their method of integration and it is easy to get better subs if you build them yourself.”

@mijostyn It appears you have no direct experience with REL subs in your system and that’s quite ok. No disrespect to DIY’s community, but every DIY bloke thinks whatever ‘they’ can do, I can do it better. And please define better, what’s better or best to you or your fellow could easily be ‘good enough’ in someone else eyes. As humans we often tend to judge things based on our personal experiences and express opinions driven by our personal biases :-)

In my 30 years of audiophile journey, I have gotten my hands dirty in quite a few DIY projects. My experience have taught me to recognize and appreciate the differences between DIY and commercial grade builds.

@larry5729 , it is painfully easy to beat Rel subs. The problem is the only commercial manufacturer to do it is Magico. A private citizen that is a competent wood worker can do it with their hands tied behind their back. You use balanced force design like Magico and make the enclosure even stiffer.

@parker65310 , I used DIvas for 6 years or so and I could never get subs to match perfectly. This was before DSP came along. I returned to ESLs and with DSP have no issues with integration so, I am sure with proper digital bass management it will be easy and a huge benefit. Like ESLs ribbons do not like making deep bass. They can do it but they do not like it.

@ieales , Rel subs are made as well as any commercial subwoofer. If you are comparing them with other subs on the market. They have two issues. I hate their method of integration and it is easy to get better subs if you build them yourself. I can do things that are totally impractical if you want your sub to come in at a reasonable price and take less than a century to build. I am not trying to pump up my ego either I mean this in all sincerity. I can do better than the subs I have now but the fellow that calibrated my projector (this is his real profession not a side line) related it was the best bass he ever heard. Frankly, I think they are ugly and a bit soft. It was a good performance for 20 years ago but I have learned a lot since then and am in the process of building a new set. Unfortunately, they are competing will things I have to do for the wife and the wife always wins. It is going to be a little while yet. I was hoping this Summer. Time Waits For No One. 

Are all REL subs made in China or just their lower-priced models? SVS Headquarters/factory is close to me here in Ohio. I've been quite happy with SVS. I am curious if a ZU sub would be a better fit for my ZU omen defs.

@punkrock67 , That is odd because most people that I know think the ported woofers are boomy and the sealed ones tight and controlled.

@phusis , I wish I could find the link but is slow mo's an 18" woofer under a strobe actually wobbling under light power. One side starts moving before the other and goes downhill from there. The excursions are not very far. 

I feel the most comfortable with 12" drivers and you can get to the same place by using multiples. I keep doubling the number until I get what I want. Next stop is 8.

I saw Marcus Miller and Mike Stern at the Blue Note in NYC last month and I could feel Marcus's E string vibrate. It is that kind of authority I would like to get at home. I have great bass, just not that great. I know there are some recordings that can do it like Supertramp's Crime of the Century or any number of Dave Holland Albums and Jaco albums not to mention Organ works. 

the big difference seems to the price.  ....the more you pay the more you expect. the more you pay the deeper the base, ( according to the specs ) big trap. 

I figured out how to take care of my crossover needs, two good .022uF caps, $5-650 Each, depends on how tree bark I smoke:)

After more research I will select the best ones for the cost which means $20-100 more likely on the lower end of that.  The exponential cost to get better is something I can live without.

Great to be lifelong DIY, my sub setup would cost many times more to get even close if I bought a manf one.

Absolutely there are differences between subs, each woofer or sub woofer. The size of the woofer, whether sealed or ported, sealed seems boomer, to me. Ported is more defined and crisp. The design or choice of physical materials and shape and size of the speaker, if it’s a single or tower dual woofer, the size and shape, the thickness of the cabinet, power of the amplifier and if it’s external or internal, cross over points, weight, mine is nearly 90lbs. Aluminum woofers dual 10”, and internal amplifier with the ability to easily go down to 19 hertz. Price point is a good way to asses quality, mine is a 6000.00 + new sub and is a direct from manufacturer purchase. I would compare it to Rel but better vs old Velodyne which made awesome subs along with Sunfire and todays big market players are SVS, Hsu, And other small brands. Just like how no two speakers sound the same from different manufacturers the same goes for subs. Some work best for music other home theater applications, some can do both. You just need to try out what works. It’s a budget based. 

@akg_ca --

Didn't see your post until after I had mine posted. You make excellent points. 

@mijostyn --

Re: driver size, I absolute agree with "The notion that larger drivers are "slower" is mythology to the max." It may (or may not) be interesting to note that the digital IMAX cinemas for a few years now have been using subs each comprising a quad array of 12" woofers (looks like (modified) Eminence LAB12's). I believe they usually have about 6 or 8 of those suckers installed in each theatre, and they're very powerful and clean sounding. Cinemas usually go with a number of ported dual 18" subs while some newer installations use 21"-loaded cabs, ported as well, but in any case it's interesting to see IMAX going the deviating route with multiple 12" woofers. Whether this is a consequence of a possible issue with lack of cone control in bigger drivers, I don't know, but in large cinema installations there'll be prodigious subs cone travel for sure.

The question is how lack of cone control in larger drivers (i.e.: 15" on up) relates to a domestic setting. A larger cone may be more difficult to control, but it also has to move less for a given output, and for cone control to be an issue you need cone travel to speak of. The cones of the 15" B&C woofers in my dual corner-loaded tapped horn subs only vibrate up to a few mm's at most at SPL's that seriously pressurizes the room; lack of control is a nonissue here, believe me. Remember the horn on the front side of the driver acts as a force multiplier, so with the combined and summed output of the backwave you have an effective air radiation about 3x that of a 15" direct radiating driver. And there are two of them, corner-loaded, hence it figures why the cones only move so very little, also explained with them having excursion minima at the tune. Bass like that doesn't force itself on you at ground level, but simply energizes the whole space around you very smoothly and effortlessly. Bass just happens as opposed to feeling delivered with effort. 

Yes, big cabs dominate the room, as my TH's would testify at 20cf. each. Corner-loaded though don't I feel it to be an issue, but seeing them out in the open they're just huge. 

Acoustic-Lab Stella Novus sub, 15 – 500 Hz, adjustable, w/ remote control 

I'm not able to respond directly to the OP's first question, but according to my experience the choice of a sub (or more than one) depends also very much on your room and its acoustics - and, of course, on the quality of the components in your stereo system (low, middle, consumer, high end). 

I assume nobody out there knows or remembers the make of the sub I use: Acustik-Lab Stella Novus (original spelled name), a Swiss made component which was very in demand in Asia in its time (and very costly, unfortunately). It allows settings in many ways, which was prior to today's DSP. (The company no longer exists.) So my favorite crossover setting  is 42 Hz...quite discreet. With DSP and today's choice of subs you may find happiness, too. 

Correction, I meant ieales, this forum operates a bit differently than I am used to.

I have built quite a few crossovers and never seen the formula written as you have and looked it up, could not find it anywhere.

* the same as x ?

R the same as impedance?

Thanks,

Rick

high-level connection is genius

No, it isn't as it does nothing to clean up the mains' low end. The interference between the mains and subs makes the bottom nebulous.

I'm sure all those extra connections and wire are destroying the sound 😉

Negative comments on REL SQ or build quality do seem to be rare.

Not many have heard properly integrated low end in a home HiFi.

Far too many sub integrations lean toward MORE, not BETTER. As a composer pal once remarked in my room "EVERY other subwoofer I've heard just boomed!"

mitch2,

 Exactly what I am looking into doing, the simplest design possible, using quality parts of course. Much easier that replacing op amps, caps, etc without having a schematic, to change freq and have a cleaner signal on the sub amps crossover I am using. I will have to work out the value of the caps which I likely have on hand, the rest is quite easy. Since my mains roll off below 70 hz I will have to aim for that point but will try above and below it as well.

Sub amp is AB but unfortunately mono, wish I could fit two of them or have two smaller mono amps but it is a decent amp, more than enough power and has  variable phase, Q, single band EQ. Only issue is the op amps are moderate in quality and the crossover is a fixed slope of 12db at 80hz. I have been looking into swapping op amps to higher grade, caps, etc and changing freq to 70hz etc...but a passive is so much easier, and I can go from the DAC (R2R in the near future) directly to the tube amp without going through an op amp.

Rick

A negative comment about REL subs is very, very rare. 

Negative comments on REL SQ or build quality do seem to be rare.  I don't recall seeing any.  Negative comments on REL pricing?  That's another matter. 

In addition, not everyone accepts REL's preference for high-level connections.  See:http://www.rythmikaudio.com/faq.html#nospeakerinput

("Why Rythmik Audio does not recommend speaker level connection?").

I don't know how you can beat REL subwoofers.  Their high-level connection is genius.  I would recommend a pair and as large as you can afford.  Nothing worse than detecting the subwoofers.  Nothing worse than hearing a thumping bass.  They take a while to dial them in, but they help to create a larger sound stage.  

Bass frequencies fall off abruptly at lower listening volumes.  Adding powered subs allows them to play at lower volumes and still hear the bass.  This is nice when having people over so you can talk.

The trade-off of course is whether the benefit of relieving the main amp/speakers of reproducing the lowest frequencies is greater than whatever detriment results from passing the signal through the HP componentry.

There is no comparison. If you were adventurous, you could simply add the caps to the main amp input. Driver/box low end interaction problems simply disappear. The mains gain a large increase in mid-bass fidelity and articulation.

The Marchand look like decent units, but more complex than required. Another is Xkitz Electronics.

It’s not difficult to assemble a first order passive and with good parts, it’s 100% effective and nearly failure proof.

@tomic601

Replace some decade old dip switches. It’s usually pretty audible.

Forgot to mention ALL the Vandy filters include DBS with a battery to keep those hard to form caps fully formed…more science…..

Let’s cover the facts.

There are other less costly options for Vandersteen high pass filters, four in fact. Six if one were to count the built in high pass filters in the M5 and M7 amplifiers. The crowd that thinks a Vandersteen high pass filter is overly complex flunked resonance control of big drivers and tanking circuit elimination classes… IF you think you can hear around the DIP switch, simple jumpers soldered in circuit will take care of that…

I run 2 systems w Vandy subs including the new Sub3 with M5 Kento grade high pass filters and another with M7 speakers and M7 amplifiers…..

Not the only way to fly…but it works for me…

Jim

@ieales - Thank you.

That is exactly the type of project I was looking for.  I would need it to be balanced.

The trade-off of course is whether the benefit of relieving the main amp/speakers of reproducing the lowest frequencies is greater than whatever detriment results from passing the signal through the HP componentry.  Marchand Electronics offers a balanced version (XM446XLR-A) for $525. 

@mitch2

Sorry, I was lazy and did not look up the M7-HP. IMO, it’s overly complex and definitely overpriced. I eschew as many connections as possible. DIP switches have no- place/nowhere in an audio cct.

I’m talking about a simple passive HP for the mains and direct connect to subs.

The capacitor values are for the main amp and calculated C = 1 / ( 2 * π * f * R )

My subs are also crossed over at about 40Hz but I can immediately tell when they are not turned on, which happens occasionally when I turn them off to insert new wire or make other changes and then forget to turn them back on.  Even at 40Hz, they seem to make a large difference in the quality of the sound from my system.  One feature I like about my Aerial SW-12 subs is the remote volume control, which allows me to easily adjust the sub/bass level by +1 or +2 when listening at low levels.  At more realistic listening levels, the 0 setting works great.

I did find another HP filter option that should cost less then the Vandersteen M7-HP.  It is the Marchand Electronics, Inc. XM446 Fully Balanced high pass filter.  I would be interested to hear pros and cons from any who have tried it, and particularly the sonic impact on the signal passing through the filter.

My take on this question is that the answer depends on what you are expecting the sub to do. In my case I am running a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers full range and using a late 90's 15" Velodyne (servo design) sub to fill in the bottom octave. It is forgiving in placement and integrates perfectly. I've got the sub crossed over at 40 hz (it's lowest setting) and most of the time it just sits there and does nothing. But play Thanks To You by Boz Scaggs and and my tummy turns into a bowl of jello. When I play this for people their jaw drops. Playing the Thiels full range means that the mid-low bass on up is tight and natural.

I have thought about getting a new sub but my current setup is so good that I'm not sure how it would be improved. If I were trying to integrate a sub with a pair of bookshelf speakers it would be a whole different story.

I have an old Richard Lord REL , Stentor III, 55kg horn loaded , beautiful cabinet. it’s-6db at 13hz. just a 10inch long throw driver. wish I had room for 2 but in my 14ft by 22ft by 10ft room it does a fantastic job

A lot of people advocate a minimum of 2 subs but some rooms (including mine) can’t accommodate more than 1 either due to the size or arrangement. Nevertheless, there are reports that one sub can work very well, and there are few who use a single high end sub in their systems to great effect.

Instead of creating a new thread on experiences with a single subwoofer, I’ll just post this here. Have a look at the photo below which is taken from another forum. This is the top of the the line REL No. 25. The sub looks small as the speakers are huge in real life, weighing in at more than 200 pounds each.

After having read most of the posts regarding subs and despite what mijostyn wrote about REL subs, I can state unequivocally that the one thing almost everybody seems to agree on in this forum is that REL subs are very good. A negative comment about REL subs is very, very rare. And this comes from someone who does not own an REL sub myself, I own the Bower and Wilkens PV1D, which is a two bass driver design that delivers quite a bit of punch.

@ieales - Maybe I do not understand.

The Vandersteen M7-HP is in fact "an inline filter between pre- and power amps". It has an XLR input and output and is intended to be situated between the preamp and the power amp. The purpose would be to roll off the bass frequencies before they are sent to be amplified by the main amplifier and sent to the main speakers. A separate full-frequency line-level feed would then be sent from the preamp to the line level inputs on the subwoofers where their internal low-pass filter would determine the HF cut-off. In essence, this type of set-up is multi-amping because you have one amplifier powering the main speakers and the internal subwoofer amplifiers powering the subs.

I have a small system near field listening with Canton 9k 2 way stand mounted so I purchased an SVS sb 1000 pro before the price increase. I emailed Canton in Germany and asked the best frequency range to set the cross over and they got back to me the next day (impressive between 50 and 60 hz 24 dB roll-off  ) I do not have the luxury to do the craw to optimize the placement of the sub they sit next to the cantons. Why, my family considerations hold sway on placement and size and I suspect in most homes this is true the tail does not wag the dog.

the SVS app has quite a bit of flexibility and control ( read about it) and you make changes at your listening position (sweet). The sub can be easily and seamlessly integrated with the Cantons.

Having said all this what I experience is dictated by what's playing upstream that is to say some CDs have great bass other CDs not so much. Consequently, my sub can sound boomy and muddy as well as crisp and tight based on the CD being played.  Be that as it may, in all cases the SVS sb1000 pro  is a bit underpowered currently set at 9+ out of 10 on its power output. I should have gotten the next size up but again I was told no big ugly boxes and you spent how much on those things. Ah, the price of domestic tranquility.

The room becomes less of a factor the more subs you add. With a swarm (4 subs) the room becomes almost a non issue.

No it doesn’t. The work done by Toole is for even bass everywhere, not accurate bass anywhere.

It’s simple to add a first order passive HP to roll the lows out of the mains.

Are you speaking about a line-level HP filter like the Vandersteen M7-HP High-Pass Filter?

No, an inline filter between pre- and power amps. THERE SHOULD BE NOTHING BUT WIRE BETWEEN THE POWER AMP OUT AND THE LS DRIVER TERMINALS. If everyone would multi-amp, the world would be a better place... and a lot of cable controversy would evaporate. I shudder every time I think about rollercoaster speaker phase response. 😢 Doubly so when tube amps are mentioned. The math makes my head spin. 😕

@ieales

It’s simple to add a first order passive HP to roll the lows out of the mains.

Are you speaking about a line-level HP filter like the Vandersteen M7-HP High-Pass Filter? If that is so easy or simple, then why does the M7-HP appear to consist of multiple components assembled on a circuit board at a price of $3,300/pair?

I am not challenging your comment but rather trying to understand. The quality of a line-level HP filter is so important because the entire signal going to the main speakers passes through it. I doubt the HP filters provided in most subs are of a sufficient quality to handle that task without affecting the sound of the main signal in some way. The M7-HP filter (i.e., balanced line-level) is exactly what I need except I would want the pass frequency at 50Hz instead of 100Hz, and I would like to pay less than $3,300.

Based on the sonic benefit of relieving the main amplifier of reproducing the lowest level signals when subs are used, I am surprised there are not more aftermarket products like the Vandersteen filters or more information about how to construct a high pass filter using high quality parts.  At least one manufacturer includes a HP filter input in their amplifiers - the Aesthetix Atlas, but I know nothing about the quality of that filter.  Do you know of any websites where I might learn more about constructing a line-level filter like the M7-HP?