Is the idea of audiophile listening a dying concept as boomers die off?

@jl35 +1

When I was a kid, one of the necessities was a high-end stereo. Almost all the young men I knew had nice stereos. Some had super nice ones. I was one of those. Today, I know of no one, zilch, that has a stereo of any kind. All my kids and grandkids listen on their phones. And even watch all their movies there also... Yea, it going to be a dead-end road shortly as us older folk retire earth. 

When I first got into the hobby in 2001 there was always the statement speakers costing 50k, cables costing 30k e.t.c.

But what has changed is a large increase in boutique electronic manufacturers, catering purely to cashed up retiring boomers.

30 years old here. Just started getting into this in January. Already on my 3rd system thousands of dollars later lol. Just bought my fourth turntable yesterday. Rega rp8. 

@simao I would agree with you that convenience is more valued than fidelity, but there is nothing really different about the current generation, as @roadcykler pointed out.

Yet for today’s young music consumers, even three minutes is too long to sit still and focus on just one thing. And since songs can’t get any shorter (without becoming ridiculous), multitasking is the only solution. Thus we have entered the “Multitask Generation,” whose membership feels the need to also be doing something else while listening to music.

That something else could be watching a related video, doing homework, playing an on-line game, or being on the go. Music alone no longer suffices. The rise of the Multitask Era also explains why so much music today is consumed on YouTube, which conveniently provides a choice of accompanying videos. Similarly, music award shows are no longer about the music but rather are about unique, attention-grabbing performances….

Now imagine a member of the current Multitask Generation buying a high-quality (not necessarily expensive) stereo system for the purpose of sitting in one spot and doing one thing for a relatively lengthy (by today’s standards) block of time. Not gonna happen. I don’t care how exposed this person has been to better-quality sound, this scenario simply does not fit the current short-attention-span, multitasking lifestyle.

So what is the high-end industry to do? First, it must understand that exposure to good sound is a necessary but not sufficient precursor to creating a new customer for traditional sound systems. High-end designers must pursue avenues that somehow address the attention-span issue.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-attention-span-gap/

macg19

What can I say? I'm a grumpy old man and getting grumpier every day! 

The younger generations will have something way better (spatial audio, object based audio, etc) for way cheaper. After the boomers’ finite lifespan ends, the younger ones will be wondering why boomers hung onto their lackluster stereo for so long. Their purity stereo will be equated to a case of stupid.

It is the Source Device today that creates the growing market and defines the end user as to how they wish to participate in being entertained as a Audiophile ( Hearing Sound that they are enthusiastic / passionate about ).

There is one thing for sure today, the Source selected will not be parity in the performance it can offer to alternate options. Making each who selects one Source only limited in how they experience the end sound from music recordings. 

The user of the Source, whichever one,  will decide which supporting Electronics they would like to see in use downstream. Is an individual using a USB to attach a Phone to a DAC to listen to replays of stored music files, any less an audiophile that somebody with a Vinyl Source and a history of years of building a Album Collection ? 

Is the individual when using that same Phone to listen to music in a different environment using a completely different method to reproduce the music replay no longer an Audiophile ?

As stated previously, the broadness of the options on a Source, has created a opportunity to express an interest in using recorded music replays as a form of entertainment, that has been adopted by an incalculable amount of the Global Population. How to separate how many are Audiophile is a futile endeavor.

Much better to engage with the individuals using Portable Sources and learn from them. 

I have not tried out the Phone as a Source on my Home System, but at a HiFi Event heard a young individual presenting a home built DIY HiFI System with his Phone as the Source, from recollection this system was very likeable and worthwhile mentioning. I would class this young individual as Audiophile as anybody I spend time with around this hobby.    

@rcm1203

Audiophile listening isn't dying.  The music worth listening to is old, just like the audiophiles who listen to it. We are a dying breed of connoisseurs, soon to be extinct.

You seem like a fun dude to hang out with.

Equipment designers see that and are exploiting their dwindling market before it’s completely gone.

And you know this how?

I am not an audiophile

l am a music lover.

I was dancing when I was twelve
I was dancing when I was twelve
I was dancing when I was aaah
I was dancing when I was aaah

I danced myself right out the womb
I danced myself right out the womb
Is it strange to dance so soon
I danced myself right out the womb

I was dancing when I was eight
I was dancing when I was eight
Is it strange to dance so late
Is it strange to dance so late

I, I, I danced myself into the tomb
I danced myself into the tomb

I, I, I danced myself out of the womb
I danced myself out of the womb
Is it strange to dance so soon
I danced myself into the tomb
But when again once more

I danced myself out of the womb
I danced myself out of the womb
Is it strange to dance so soon
I danced myself out of the womb

I’ll dance myself into the tomb 

Audiophile listening isn't dying.  The music worth listening to is old, just like the audiophiles who listen to it. We are a dying breed of connoisseurs, soon to be extinct. Equipment designers see that and are exploiting their dwindling market before it's completely gone. 

Bottom line for me. Industry is doing fine. Look at any of the recommendation threads here. 1 question, 100 brands mentioned and recommended. No real consolidation, no companies dominating the market, lots of new entries every year and very few companies that seem to be shutting down. Especially the amount of cable companies always amazes me. Low initial investment and high margins it seems. 
 

Forum is always active, I think we are in good shape…

Check the demographic at hi fi shows - male and old!

Lot's of women enjoy other predominantly 'male' hobbies; cars, motorcycles, mountain biking, competitive shooting, gardening.  

Any thoughts on why there are not more women audio enthusiasts? 

I went to law school in my late 40's from 1999-2003. I owned a stereo shop at the time. One girl said that she didn't understand the need for expensive gear because her boom box played louder than she needed. This was a law school student not the village idiot. 

Many of the younger folks are not into acquiring things that tie them down. That’s why streaming with their phones or earbuds is so popular…in addition to being way less expensive.  Many are also controlled by what’s socially acceptable too. I believe Audiophile's will always exist as these younger gen’s grow up, get more disposable cash and they become are less mobile.  I see the expansion of hifi desktop speakers, powered speakers and hifi integrated systems as a means to attract the upcoming audiophiles.  

Very interesting subject. My kids, 23 and 26 yo, have zero interest in my system. Too bulky, too much of everything. This is despite probably a 50k investment over the years (system, LPs, and CDs). Neither want it. Too much work. We own a 2nd house that my daughter lives in while going to school. It is like pulling teeth to get her or her boyfriend to mow the yard. Just a different mentality now a days. I suspect this lack of enthusiasm rolls down hill. However, I suspect there will always be a niche. That niche can not just support high end users. The market would collapse. One can't say that all high end audio equipment is out of reach for the common man. Look at Schiit. Great product, great price point. I think there will always be options available but maybe not as many as previously. 

@simao I would agree with you that convenience is more valued than fidelity, but there is nothing really different about the current generation, as @roadcykler pointed out. I listened to FM (and AM) on lo fi car radios and table top sets and "transistors," and listened to records on my family's console hi fi when I was a teen. As I began to develop more appreciation for the music, and production became more sophisticated, I climbed the audiophile ladder.

Nowadays, the kids enter music via MP3s, "curated" stations, wretched earbuds, and yes, the radio, which is still the dominant way that people get their music fix. It's no worse, in many ways better, than what I had. And a small but significant number will graduate to better sound.

It reminds me, as a photographer, of when people complain the cell phone is killing cameras, even photography itself. Over my lifetime, and before, it was claimed that the Brownie, the Instamatic, the point and shoot, and even the original 35 mm film camera were going to overshadow serious photography. They are all gone or dwindling, and the stand alone dedicated camera chugs on. There have always been lots of snapshots, and a lot of very enjoyable listening of not the highest fidelity, and there is nothing wrong with either, but in the end, they have little effect on the serious enthusiast's experience.

@rok2id You are right The high end is rather, uh, high-priced. The NYT noted a system at an audio show in 1975 that cost over 6 grand, and noted that the entry point for audiophile listening had crossed the Rubicon of 2 grand. In 2023 dollars, that would be nearly 35000 for high end and close to 12 grand for entry tier gear. That is pretty much the same as today. But in other electronic segments, from televisions to tablets, prices have dropped with innovation. I agree with some here that the ultra high end systems, costing 75-100K plus get outsized attention at shows, just like the Lamborghinis and Rolls Royces at car shows, but that is bling culture at work.

Two forces are churning. Income inequality has produced a larger class of multimillion- and billionaires for whom price is no object. But, even though the more-money-than-sense crowd is bigger than ever, the thick end of that market, the nouveau riche, is interested in installing a movie theater in their house, not a concert hall. The vast majority of sales of the top spec'd equipment is to enthusiasts, who are stretching every dollar because they are obsessed with ultimate sound. No doubt, the internet has made it easier for ambitious engineers to connect with those serious audiophiles, and niche markets command premium prices.

What amazes me is how many smart gear designers charge prices that are not low, but nowhere near premium priced, heavily advertised and reviewed brands. I recently auditioned an amplifier pair that is easily as good as any I have ever heard. In the designer's house, no less. The price is at the very top end of what I can save for, but a third of what it would cost from the top nameplates.  Like a fine restaurant, they build to order.

 

97 posts

06-22-2024 at 01:05pm 

Who cares? Enjoy the music via whatever format you have. The kid (me) going to sleep with an AM radio under his pillow liked what he was hearing just as much as the adult (still me) does hearing it via a pretty good system.
 

@roadcykler 

Great post. I can really relate.

Source quality, for the listener, has never been better. Streaming pretty much makes CD quality ubiquitous and many systems are capable of delivering more. Analog is there for those who have or are curious to try those media. Considering the source  limitations of a generation ago, a worldwide streaming capability at CD quality was unthinkable at a consumer level. Even in analog, the equipment selection is an order of magnitude greater than when I bought my first (modest, college student) turntable. The web has delivered a range of gear no brick and mortar-based market ever could. Asia has become an innovative and increasingly prosperous market for every kind of gear which in turn has made many new products available for very reasonable prices everywhere.  These are the best of times in audio.

@ghasley  — I agree. The challenge of putting together a great audio system with little money is SO easy today compared to earlier. Especially with used stuff and a little knowledge. I agree with your posit.

Here's my posit: there is a level of sustained attention required for audio listening. That is why the gear matters. The more distraction there is, the less people engage in sustained attention. That's why audiophiles are a vanishing breed. Distraction will win and attention will lose — and you won't need expensive gear for the distractions. 

@roadcykler 

Who cares? Enjoy the music via whatever format you have.

I still don't get why people who think a thread is worthless take the time to sound off. I mean, don't they have a closet to go in and yell? Or a dog to kick?

Please don't answer me. I don't care.

I think the high end is generally doing fine...but the days of many/most homes having a decent/good stereo are mostly over..,

Gen X here and love my system started way back in my 30s that would be the late 90s and in that time only met a handful of others into good sound in person. Outside of CAF and at my dealers that is and a few friends have gotten into vinyl and have starter systems and that's cool. There is so much good gear out there now and still tons of affordable stuff.

Every piece of evidence I see indicates that the audio industry is flourishing.

• Sales are setting records.
• New retail locations are opening.
• Every time I read Stereophile or TAS I learn of another manufacturer that has entered the US market or is introducing a new line. 
• Companies like Mofi are releasing a steady stream of new mid priced products. 
• I've never seen so much used equipment available.
• The Music Direct catalog is becoming as thick as a phone book with hundreds of moderately priced products. 
• New audiophile vinyl labels are opening steadily, especially jazz.
• Audio shows are operating across the country and are drawing record crowds.
• The A/V Contracting and Home Automation business is booming.
• I believe that audio forum participation is increasing (correct me I'm wrong about this).

There is no doubt that the ultra high end is on fire but it gets a disproportionate amount of publicity. While everyone rants about six-figure gear the mid priced stuff flies ot the door. 

@phillyrover:

Of course you are correct.  I am just letting off steam over the current prices.  When I think of some of the inexpensive stuff I have purchased in the past, like Harman Kardon HK3490 ($299) and Marantz PM7200 ($500) and Polk Lsim705 ($1500pr), and then consider what it will cost to replace them with similar items.  Nearest Marantz would be $3000!  But in some sense, audio has never been cheaper.  Maybe I just like the wrong brands.

Thanks

Cheers

@rok2id There is plenty of midrange gear around, and a huge home theater/distributed audio market that targets that segment. Just check out Best Buy or Target or Wally World or Crutchfield. Sony, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, etc. still pump out lots of under a grand units, and not just Marantz, but other nameplates in the higher end do the same. Parasound may make megabucks gear, but they also make a lot of entry level gear. Plus there are companies like Emotiva and Schitt and Topping and others who market directly for the mid level consumer.

I remember my first encounter with the audiophile market in the 70s. Pretentious salespeople tried to upsell customers and were downright rude when rebuffed. (Little has changed, alas.) I researched speakers for my cousin, all of 15 at the time, but interested in good sound. We found a well regarded speaker that he could buy with what he had saved from his summer job. We drove the 50 miles to Raleigh to buy a pair, having found two dealers that stocked them. The first dealer did not want to honor the price he gave on the phone, and when we told him that was the budget, he sneered "so you really are in THAT price range?" We just turned and left, going to the other dealer. Their quote was more, but they honored it, and treated us to an audition of the next level, AFTER the transaction. They understood the concept of priming the pump. The first dealer did not get a bigger sale, nor even the extra forty bucks. The second dealer earned a lifetime of repeat business and referrals. I estimate my referrals added 30-50 grand to his sales, all gained from not humiliating a teenager over a 300 dollar purchase.

That first dealer is the one that makes people, as the younger generations say, cringe. Wine tasting groups and stores can have the same vibe. People are still buying and enjoying wine and spirits at all prices and with all levels of sophistication and appreciation. How we buy and share our interests has changed, but fundamentally, much remains the same. We all seek people who share our interests and respect our tastes and circumstances.

@ghasley:

Exactly my point.  Where are the audio fiats and VWs?  i.e.  the Sansui and Kenwood and pioneer, Sony......  etc stuff.

Cheers

Those audiophiles who can visit Axpona and similar shows seem both highly dedicated to the hobby and have money and time to burn. That's a hallmark of an older generation.  

Plus, music development, production, and consumption is changing - vinyl resurgence notwithstanding. The ease of streaming trumps fidelity for many. And since most younger don't ever have the chance to listen through a high end system, that remains a barrier.

Plus (again), with Sonos and soundbars now delivering such (relatively) decent sound at affordable pricing, I would venture that many don't see the necessity for fidelity - especially as the video/visual component of domestic entertainment is much more engaging than it ever has been. 

I went to a private MBL event and the actual owners/buyers there were in my age bracket and slightly older, which is 40s/50s. 

Axpona, on the other hand, was likely more of a demo in their ~60/70s.

In my case, I had to plan months in advance to attend Axpona and blocked out a weekend.  Despite this, I still was only able to attend Friday.  It'd be very difficult to go to regular meetups or events, which I'd imagine is true for many working-age audiophiles.

@rok2id

Greed is the answer.  They seem to have  forgotten that you can't have an affordable flourishing market for Prorsche, Ferrari and Lexus, unless you have a flourishing market for VW, Fiat and Toyota.  Otherwise, it's all on borrowed time.

As The Frogman always says, The Unwashed Rule.

Aren't Toyota, VW and Stellantis(Fiat-Chrysler) #1, 2 &4 as far as sales worldwide? What could be more flourishing?

@kerrybh    +1   Horse racing has a very similar analytical structure(decision making) when compared to High End Audio! 

No. 
not in my experience. 

Greed is the answer.  They seem to have  forgotten that you can't have an affordable flourishing market for Prorsche, Ferrari and Lexus, unless you have a flourishing market for VW, Fiat and Toyota.  Otherwise, it's all on borrowed time.

As The Frogman always says, The Unwashed Rule.

Cheers

@OP - Yes. Check the demographic at hi fi shows - male and old!

Audiophiles are born by hearing music on a system of someone who has better equipment than he has. We are certainly no longer in the era of audio stores on every street corner, but so long as there's a saving remnant there's no reason why things might not turn around. It's the height of foolishness to think that the latest turn is the last one. One phenomenon that bucks the trend is the renaissance in headphones caused by computer gaming and portable devices. Sort of like dinosaurs evolving into birds but it is a move in a particular direction.

Music and gear to record and reproduce it will always be a huge market. No need for concern. 

I don't believe the demand for high quality audio equipment will go to zero, but like horse racing, another passion of mine, it seems to have less appeal for younger generations. Some of this relates to financial matters obviously, but I think it goes beyond that. Music is more portable than its ever been even though portable music is generally far below high quality. That appeals to the younger folks as it suits their lifestyle and their incredible dependence on cell phones. Not much interest in what we would call critical listening, or in making the investment most of us have made.

My daughters-both in their 30s-love music and I have the iTunes receipts to prove it. They cannot understand, however, my affinity for sitting still for 2--3 hours at a time listening to music. They are perfectly content with Spotify and AirPods

Maybe this will change as technology improves. Eventually, portable music will be delivered at a quality that is unavailable now-might make a difference. 

I always thought boomers were the greatest generation being born of parents who fought in WWII and all that went with that. Turns out you can add audiophilia as well as one of the defining qualities. 😄

Snark aside, the same questions were asked when digital watches came out as many foresaw the demise of mechanical watches. I'm still laughing at that one.

All the best,
Nonoise

It is a changing landscape. I'm 65 and enjoy my stereo system and speakers. My nephew is into jam bands (Goose, Grateful Dead, Phish, Widespread Panic, Spafford) and enjoys listening to albums and recorded shows, but he mainly listens through a headphone stack, not speakers.  He has a decent 2.1 system in his living room but it is used 95% of the time for movies, not music. 

Going forward, I can see cellphones having better DACs and Bluetooth becoming lossless to CD quality earbuds and headphones being the "go to" listening devices for the next generations. 

Some will "back into" stereo listening via setting up a home theater system. 

I'm happy to have come of age in the 1970s and will forever love listening via speakers most of the time. 

Who cares? Enjoy the music via whatever format you have. The kid (me) going to sleep with an AM radio under his pillow liked what he was hearing just as much as the adult (still me) does hearing it via a pretty good system.

@hilde45 Indeed, as you know better than most due to your profession of interpreting data accurately and objectively for a living, the data can convince either side of a topic that they reading the tea leaves appropriately.

I posit that there has never been a time in our hobby where competent music systems and specifically, access to music, has been more readily available. Now, that access is different and the definition of "what is hifi" is different to different groups. When many on Audiogon were getting interested, there was a local hifi ship and it served equals parts retail/service shop and audio hangout. We ALL remember those days and there were more than a few who hung out and never bought.

The pandemic shined a bright light on every segment of the industry. You discovered quickly which companies had an accidental business model and supply chain relationship, different abilities to act/react to the changing landscape and wildly different demand curves depending on the product and the manufacturer's ability to deliver. We experienced 20 years of change in three years.

Everything is going to be ok...hifi will live on and shift just fine with or without us. If objectively analyzing generations of data tells us anything, it is dominated by the fact that (A) the law of large numbers is actually a reasonable predictor and (B) every generation believes they are exceptional and most generations are incorrect. LOL.

• Nope. Every generation has enough people who care about the finer things in life and can afford them, be they cars, watches, hi-fi gear or any other 'luxury' items to keep the industry going strong. And those people will continue to have ears and brains long past the 'boomer' generation. 

@tom2015 +++ you are spot on with your post “People under 50 that can afford the pricier items have demanding jobs and families.”

I am a perfect example of that. Influenced by my older brothers I started going to concerts and buying records at 10. Reading audio magazines, buying the best components I could afford doing odd jobs through high school and college. Then demanding work (TV/Audio Buyer and Sales manager), getting married, 3 kids, house demands, tight budget living in CA - music was not a priority. Then 3-4 years ago being retired, kids in college, free time the hobby was reborn. This time without the financial restraints and guilt but focused on value and not going too crazy. (although my wife thinks otherwise)  Hopefully this trend will continue into the upcoming generations for the minority that really cherish hearing music in a room rather than earbuds. Time will tell but there should be some screaming deals on used gear we leave behind.

Earning Power has nothing whatsoever to do with listening to music via electronic devices.

My experiences to date are there is very very little snobbery to be found in music replays as a Hobby, there is not agenda to keep the Riff Raff out, no exclusivity for the membership. That is not saying there is not individuals who share their interest similar in this Hobby who are not snobs, some of these individuals most likely are members within a forum, and some may even be frequent posters on their chosen forum/forums. 

A Hobby and the attention it can generate through the usage of surrounding supporting networks, takes all sorts to assist with the cultivating the growth. I am not prejudiced towards any sharing their interest. 

It is well noted on this forum and many others, exceptional listening experiences are able to be produced using electronic devices that are not stupid expensive.

As mentioned in a previous post, there are today in use numerous sources, the individual is more defined today by their choice of Source and Medium used, than their chosen music genre.

Years ago when in discussion you were Wed to a Vinyl or CD Source / Vinyl CD Source, with a specific liking for a Genre/ Multiple Genre's.

Today an individual is a Data Streamer, Digital Recorded File user, Phone user , Hard Drive user , CD user , Analogue Tape user , Vinyl user or any combination.

Even a typical found in the home Desktop PC or Laptop are considered today a replay Source worthwhile using for Stored Digital Recordings or Streamed Data Recordings.

Any will be considered Audiophile in relation to the end sound that can be produced, to achieve an End Sound that is deemed attractive does not require silly monies to achieve. 

This question has been coming up for decades with lots of reasons that it is a dying pursuit, but the number of products continues to proliferate. I remember watching in awe as old guys came in and carted off the most recent Audio Research component… far more expensive than I could dream of purchasing. Well, now I’m the old guy…and after me there will be followed by other younger old guys. 

@ghasely

I think everyone should question the value/implication of this data: "The three best years for modern era high end audio sales in terms of units sold and revenue were 2021, 2022 and 2023."

a. How were the 'best years of audio - revenue' adjusted for inflation?

b. How were the 'best years of audio - units sold' adjusted for population growth?

We need to compare 'apples to apples'. If these adjustments are lacking, the opening statement has little relevance.

I think we (as in audiophile, studied listening) have always been a niche. When I was a teen into my 20s, listening was a social activity-- there was much less home entertainment to compete. Into my 30s and 40s, I participated in an audio club in NY but got to a point where had far less time to listen, and was not interested in futzing around with turntables and tubes (my long time systems, since the early-mid 70s). Home theater became an easy way to push a couple buttons and be entertained when I was doing so much traveling for work.

By my 50s, I got back into two channel audio and revamped the main system entirely. Now, in my dotage, I have the time and interest to continue this type of "studied" listening. I have met young people who are pursuing a similar course, though they have not yet reached their peak earning power. That doesn’t matter, it’s more a mindset and approach than money spent. But, without wide-ranging data, all I have is my anecdotal experience-- and believe we have always been in the minority (except perhaps in the ’70s, when hanging out and listening was a "thing to do" for our generation).

It's undeniable that at a younger age most must work hard and do multiple chores to run a family and that undoubtedly puts the research of quality sound as a distant secondary endeavor, if at all. Equally true is most retired people with the means to sit back and enjoy the roses are in dire need of finding some kind of hobby that will enhance their life. Anyway, that is pretty much how it went for me. I grew up in my teens listening to rock music nearly everyday, but not in any audiophile form other than on my dad's system. Then in my twenties, I dove into my professional life, unfortunately no longer being able to give much time to listening to music. It wasn't until the business world ended for me that I could finally get back into music and have been on an audiophile path ever since. I honestly know of no one in my younger friends or family who has any desire to get involved with the hobby. They enjoy listening to my setup but would never consider following it. At least at this point in their life. 

I ran into an industry exec in a store one day, by chance, who told me 

1) the high end industry is larger outside the U.S.

2) the fastest growing segment of consumer electronics world wide is audio systems over $50k

I have a younger friend, around 45, prosperous and with refined musical tastes, whose children are now nearing independence and wants to spend an evening hearing his favorite recordings via a serious playback system. All signs suggest he grasps the deficiencies of the "smart speaker" world is ready to explore the magical world of serious two-channel listening.. Two years ago, I helped another younger friend in the same project. His wife and children constantly remark that they have never heard music sound so good. He doesn't even own a preamp; uses a mid-fi streamer/DAC straight into the amp, and recently asked for help in adding a vinyl rig. So, anecdotally, there are grounds for optimism about the future of our little "hobby" or niche obsession.