Is it O.K. To Speculate Re: Company Stability Here?
Today I read a thread a poster wondering in Mytek was still in business. A couple of replies were critical of the poster for asking.
Owners of Krell products started a few threads when the company didn’t answer queries about repairs. Some criticism ensued due to alleged insensitivity to deaths in the family ownership.
I mentioned that I heard a rumor about Sim Audio due to the demise of one of their founders and was told that I was on a mission to destroy their company.
I fully understand that the Internet is the leading source of information, good and bad . I also realize that it is the medium of commerce for audio companies . I also realize that company margins are small and that misinformation can be very harmful to their bottom line.
However the fact that these companies sometimes have precarious stability means that their customers, potential or otherwise, have legitimate questions. Look how Thiel Audio, Krell, Audio Research, and Mytek have done over the past half decade or so. If a creative voice at Sony leaves the company for whatever reason, chances are Sony will still be here for the next several decades. With the companies Agoners tend to favor, it could be disastrous.
That is a long winded prelude to my question, namely: Can we question the stability of companies here? I don’t want to be a troll and hurt any manufacturer. However where do we few tens of thousand aficionados get to ask legitimate questions? This is a Forum for hobbyists, not God’s Writ on Absolute Truth.
If anything I think that the quashing of rumors benefits the manufacturers more than seeds of doubt in the minds of consumers. I speak as some who has previously bought Mytek and AR gear, and who has seriously considered SIm Audio. Personally I am not going to spend thousands of dollars on something if I think the company may not be here in 6 months. YMMV. However I think this space should be a legitimate place to ask questions.
It's a great question. In hobbies with small bases, like audio, speculation affects companies much more. The history and structure of audio companies doesn't help either. These are often under 5 employee operations that a few small hiccups can sink. Combine that with us paying thousands for each product which become one technical problem away from being worth zero, and it's a precarious industry. Oh, don't forget not wanting to post or to see posted a negative thing about something you own, because the used market pretty much supports the entire industry.
I've heard dealers say negative, speculative things about products they don't carry. That then gets repeated by customers that trust their opinion. Most of the time they know nothing more than anyone else and are often repeating what they hear in their "friend group". It becomes a tiny bubble within the already small audio bubble.
I don't know the answer to your question as it's dangerous to talk about problems, but also dangerous to not talk about problems. Audiogon boards also have the problem of poor moderation and no system of upvote/downvote to maybe combat some of these issues. I'd love to see a process of when things like that are posted, they get "hidden" until the manufacture can respond. Having good moderators would also be a huge help. These boards are ancient and need to be modernized in some way. It's the wild, wild west of audio forums here.
The internet is a place where everyone can voice their opinion. It is a place where you will never make everyone happy.
Questions about a public company's performance are never out of bounds. Sensitivity to personal tragedy is always appopriate. Speculation and rumor mongering happen a lot and responsible readers will ignore them. Many will tell you they are inappropriate, but they just as well tell the sky not to rain.
Sure it is totally acceptable a business that sells to the public is by its nature public facing and speculation on stability or anything else business related is the norm.
On the principle that bad info drives out good info should one not be very careful with their speculation? You cannot always know someone's intentions, but what's the point of questioning if a company is still in business. Reading from a reputable news source that a company is reorganizing, being sold, had a founder die, etc is different than they didn't answer the phone or reply to my e-mail within 24 hours.
Well it helps to check if the rumor is true. And before ordering expensive audio gear , Try to figure out the stability of the company.Many here in the past few years lost thousands of dollars because company close.
I'd vote for open discourse. This is, after all said and done, fundamentally not much more than a gossip column anyway. Frustrating though for those who are, in essence, diving for pearls in pig shit, long on opinions and short on facts. Can be fun though. :-)
FWIW, I think it is very important to be knowledgeable about a manufacturer's products and practices. Often this knowledge is gained drilling down rumors, etc. Helps one avoid disappointments down the line such as we regularly see here.
For anyone that has a piece of gear that has failed and think it is a paper weight, you can try talking to The Soundsmith Corporation. Peter Ledermann peter@sound-smith.com and his team repairs gear no longer made as well as current gear.
Here’s an example: I owned a pair of Halcro dm68’s. One of the amps failed. Halcro hasn’t had a repair facility in the USA for years. I’d have to ship to Australia for repair. I know Peter and asked him if he could repair the amp. Not only did he repair the amp, but performed an upgrade to prevent the failure in the future.
This is just one example of gear his team can repair.
If you think all Soundsmith does is cartridges, then you need to rethink this. https://sound-smith.com/
I will warn you all, he is picky about RMA’s and procedures, but if you follow his “rules”, you’ll get a quality repair.
He’s a small shop and we need to keep these shops in business, so spread the word.
I believe that criticizing companies, or publicizing any info about them that is relevant to its customers' interests yet might prove detrimental to the company itself, is perfectly fine and even desirable. Transparency is a good thing, and this is a free country after all.
The caveat is that posters of such info should always provide each and every detail they know of that might help others vet said info: sources, links, whatever.
Given how many audio companies change hands or shut down, knowing how to fix one's own gear does somewhat insulate gear owners from the vagaries of the marketplace.
@mahler123 Sony may still be around if someone important leaves or dies, but what difference does it make, most people that buy Sony equipment don't get that stuff fixed under warranty they just bring it back to the retailer. If it's out of warranty it's usually just cheaper to buy a new one.
I tried getting my Sony HAPZ1ES HDD player repaired which were still being sold on Sony’s website. They basically told me to pound sand. I basically told them I owned 2 of them and asked if they could reconsider, I was told I now had a unit for spare parts. At 2K each, that’s a lot of money for spare parts. I inquired with a few recommended shops on repairing it and was given a “no” from all of them. It was the same story, too hard to work on and a lack of parts and schematics. So, the large companies like Sony are no better than the small niche companies.
And that's exactly why Right to Repair laws are so important. They force rogue companies to make all repair information for their products accessible to the public.
That makes all the difference between the shops you talked to about fixing your Sony saying "Yes!" instead of "No", and you having a working Sony instead of a $2,000 paperweight.
Right to Repair laws have already been passed in a number of states, but folks are not always aware they exist.
In my opinion it’s fair to post a question about or share your experience with a manufacturer. Should be done appropriately per the site guidelines. An open discussion is one of the benefits of utilizing social media.
Reminds me of an old quote. If you start a company that sells goods and services to the public you should keep in mind that if you can’t stand the heat then you shouldn’t be in the kitchen.
Interesting questions being asked here. Ok I'll throw one in the hopper and see if it stirs up the hornets nest at all...So MacIntosh was bought out by my favorite company to bash, Bose. How does that impact their products and viability for the future. Is this another brand that will be diluted and rendered impotent because the parent company wants to milk it dry? I don't have a good feeling about this and, for me, it has removed Mac equipment on the list of not just unobtanium, but not desirable because the parent company's reputation is not good. I KNOW there are those here that like specific Bose products, but these products are few and not generally well liked by most audiophiles. I remember hearing bose 901 series IV speakers driven by a phase linear amp and liking them, then I heard shortly after that a pair of upscale Klipschorns and LOVED them driven by an equivalent amp...Citation 16. The Klipsch killed it...such a dynamic and efficient speaker driven by a very powerful ( for the day ) amplifier. Totally blown away. Do I want Klipsch today, well, not really. Nor the Bose 901 but at that time they both sounded good to my ears. We all travel this path where we hear this and that and something triggers one of those " OMG this is it " moments and we jump in with both feet. And this repeats itself over and over again if we stay interested in the equipment and the experience. one of my peak musical experiences with recorded music and a system to reproduce it was a pair of Ohm A's driven by a Crown DC300A - it melted me down into a puddle with its presentation. But I had a college buddy that a pair of JBL's a 50 wpc amp and a turntable. One day we were inhaling some reefer and there u go, it was a concert on the jbl speakers that presented a convincing illusion that i was THERE at the venue where this was happening...needless to say, I allowed myself to absorb and believe the illusion. I loved it...once in a great while it happens.
I think it’s fine to convey actual experiences with a company or a product. If someone relates a bad customer service experience, we can all make of that what we will. If someone gives a subjective opinion about how a product sounds, we all understand that is one person‘s opinion.
I think it’s different, however, to cash doubt on the financial viability of a company without a real basis to do so. This can badly hurt a business, particularly a small business, for no reason at all. It’s the Internet, so it’s going to happen. But, absent facts, a little discretion might be in order
Yes there is no guarantee that a company the size of Sony will provide good service. I personally won’t ever buy Marantz after having an extremely bad experience with them. However I used Sony as a comparator to the boutique companies that most of us favor. They have enough cash reserves to withstand blips in sales that might result from misinformation. Sim Audio might be affected more. And hopefully they and other Canadian brands will survive the tariff war
This is a forum - you can share your an opinion. And someone can respond with theirs.
I personally wouldn’t spread anything about a company without first hand experience.
Simaudio appears to be doing very well in spite of the loss of one of the owners. There are several owners who are actively managing the company. They purchased it from the founder a few decades ago.
My experience with them is through buying a DAC and using their trade-in program to upgrade. I have never had an issue with their products. I have received quick responses when I asked questions on configure their streaming app with my NAS server.
I would check with the company first to see if they respond to a question before I post anything about them. You have a concern and I understand that. Is your concern about getting something repaired down the road?
If something can be repaired, then there are repair people who can repair them as long as parts are available and nothing needs to be programed.
20 year old products can be repaired if parts are available from a good repair tech.
We have been building our own gear and repairing for 25+ years. I can only remember a few products that we could not repair or the cost to repair them was too much.
We can also modify a product to work using a slightly different design when all else fails.
I think it's certainly can be a valid question to ask...I think problems can arise if the question presents with a somewhat exaggerated title, and is maybe based on a phone call not being returned within 24 hours...and many read the title, but not the full story...
Although I can appreciate 'concierge' audio gear as well as y'all do, the $'s involved tends to keep it out of reach and out of my pile of oddities. Fortunately, I'm reasonably pleased with the current crop with no immediate desires other than my diy projects.
Most has been collected with those goals in mind and intent, so any tariff 'hits' should be marginal if at all. A lack of esoteria ought to be a plus, even if something goes *foom*.
The amp that binds it all is used and has protective circuits that so far responded nicely....
Difficult to separate the facts from fake news these days. Opinions are great when they are backed up by tangible facts. Otherwise, speculation makes a good chat but nothing of value IMHO.
@mahler123 ...Personally I am not going to spend thousands of dollars on something if I think the company may not be here in 6 months. YMMV. However I think this space should be a legitimate place to ask questions.
There is no guarantee or reasonable answer. The small boutique companies can be challenged when the hands-on engaged owner gets sick, or has parts supply challenges, or just stops supporting a particular model any more.
The mid-size companies can get bought out, and who knows what happens next to products, parts supplies, and whether they’ll continue to repair something or not.
Larger and known COs get bought out too, Bose-McIntosh, maybe more promising here, we’ll all watch and see what happens with models, parts, ongoing support?
One other member and I here talk about this question quite a bit. One other factor is whether or not we could get something repaired locally or not with a good tech. I had some amps a while back that I really liked for my speakers. I even had two spares of the same amp liking it so much. One day the main board went bad, tried fixing it five times. Boards aged, hot, cracked, multiple repairs made. Local 50 year tech buddy gave up, and I sold it for parts. Then let the other amps go too for someone braver than I am keeping amps and gear around with limited spares out there with low-volume produced boutique amps.
I tend to think it’s a roll of the dice no matter what you buy out there. Can you get it fixed later, that’s the question I’d have first and foremost. Good Luck.
You can yes, but you have to be careful. I wont comment on the others, but I will say, you have absolutely no proof or recollection of where you read about Simaudio Moon. To add to that, just because someone passed away, doesn't mean the company goes belly up or is it trouble (example : Walt Disney).
I had never read any articles or comments suggesting this, so if you are the only one on the internet claiming this, it would be fantastic to support it with some kind of proof at least.
You have to remember, a comment like that can persuade other members to not buy from a certain brand, because they can perceive it as being true...
That's my opinion on this matter.
Then, there is just general speculation, which is ok, and people can voice their opinions and discuss.
What @skads_187 wrote above is super important to note. Particularly so if you care not to hurt or cause damage to these boutique makers working to survive and thrive. Many thrive also because of forums like Audiogon. Support them.
i.e. Frank Van Alstine at AVA recently passed away, yet as some know Frank spent [I think] at least the last 3 years slowly prepping and transitioning design, manufacturing, production to some new chaps fully taking over for him keeping the Van Alstine dream alive. I bet if we call there they will share what the future holds.
Frank shared with me once a few years ago how his design guys there are responsible for some of last gen components we see now, not sure what exactly. Same goes for Nelson at Pass Labs, and how Dennis Had has effectively worked with his pit crew on the Inspire by Dennis Had amps and preamps. You see smart changes inside too from the new crew taking the legacy onward! Be Cool.
I’m sympathetic to keeping politics out of threads but mentioning that new tariffs may impact Canadian manufacturers isn’t being political. It isn’t the same as discussing the merits of tariffs or commenting on the politicians that implement them
The real issue is people believe anything that is in type. Not a lot of people do any kind of fact checking.
What really needs to be done, is separate fact from speculation, rumor, hearsay.
"not sure if this is true" "my friend told me this" "I read this article" "was talking to someone who works there"
Let us know your source, how from removed you are from it, how much do you trust the source? Personally, have very little trust when someone selling me something bashes, or talks down abut other products, without hard facts. As in "this is better because of , x, y, z.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
