Is it me? Will I ever be satisfied?

You will probably never be happy....but try...hard to just enjoy the music.

You have received a lot of good advice, although if you take all of it you’ll have to start over. I would go slow. I would start with speaker placement and modest room treatments- I don’t think you have to rebuild the room to get decent improvement. Then I would consider what you think you are missing and how you can get there- starting with speakers. You have great speakers IF you like the B&W sound, as many do. If the speakers are not voiced to your taste, however, you are not likely to ever be satisfied and I’d make sure you have that right first

if you do, the most obvious component upgrade is your DAC. Listen to as many as you can and go from there- with what you like. Be careful of well intentioned advice because components or brands that someone else chose may be perfect for them but not be at all for you. Take advantage of having a good dealer nearby

dont expect too much as you make changes, especially after speakerd

most improvement is incremental not a sea change at least in my experience. 

good luck and enjoy

I Ain’t Ever Satisfied

Steve Earle And the Dukes/Exit 0

Is it me? Will I ever be satisfied?

Maybe not. But even if you do get things sorted out, maybe not.

Some people are just of the mentality that it could sound just that much better if I could just...

But the reality is that no matter how good the system sounds, the source is typically flawed in some way or other, and while one track may sound exactly as you think it should, another will not and you don’t know which to judge the system from.

I go through this all the time with crossover modifications.

@havocman just wondering what DACs in the 3x’s the price range the you have compared the W4S 10th Anniversary DAC to and what differences you heard?

Cool, congratulations! Only the beginning… a few more advil with speaker movements  and room treatments and it will get better and better. 

Ok so we took all the great feedback and advice and made a major change.  We moved the our home theater into the playroom/basement and set-up the two channel system in what was the HT.  This room is 13'x22' is with carpet, drapes etc.  What a difference it has already made getting the equipment.  The best upgrade I have made the only cost a few Advil and the whole weekend!  

Which level of Transparent cables?  Like any component, they can be a good match or not.  If it is old Super or Reference XL cables, look to use their upgrade program. 

I am very new to all of this less than 8 months in from Sonos.  I’ve has Sonus Faber, Focal, Utopias, JBL Synthesis, JM labs, Martin Logan and KEF reference. That’s just the speakers in 8 months. 
 I have tried MC2170 (I think), Mx130, c2500, mc302, MA352, emotiva xpa, Parasound and more. Most revelry I’ve been liking my Musical Fidelity m8xi super integrated now for sale with my Utopias. 
 

my rooms is large 20 wide 33 deep couch is about 12’ away too. My biggest thing is no combo of any of that sound amazing. I’m beginning to agree with some people that room and wall prep needs to happen to be impressed. Nothing sounds way better than the other. 
 

my emotiva and mx130 sound great in 2 ch.  when is it over?

Try other room. Maybe that fix problem. If that case you no you no have match problem. My guess you speaker not fit wall vibration  right 

Thank you all for the great input.  I really appreciate the time and input you all have given me. Truly an amazing group of friends and fellow enthusiasts!

So many great suggestions, almost seems pointless to add more and pardon me if I am redundant in my suggestions but here goes.

The very first thing to do is play with speaker and listening position placements. Set that up first but after my second suggestion you should experiment with speaker location again to fine tune them.

Second thing is to begin to add sound treatments that will both absorb and diffuse the sound as it moves through the room. Your room is large enough to properly use diffusion. These panels need to be at least 6 feet from the listening position but more is better. They typically should be placed behind you but you can experiment. Bass traps in the corners are a great help and absorption panels on the side walls right in front of the speaker to absorb those first reflected sound waves is very important.

Make sure you have plenty of space behind the listening positioning and the speakers are well away from the front and side walls. The equilateral triangle positioning for speaker and main listening position is a great suggestion, but does not need to be exact. More important is to have the speakers away from the walls and your listening position away from the back wall. Make sure the side and front wall measurements to the speakers match each other, very important.

Next as many have suggested your DAC may or may not be an issue. Try taking it out and see if the sound improves. Use a record player or a CD player, but do not run them through the DAC. If music does sound better that way then you may have found the next item to upgrade. Finally I do not know if your amplifiers are a good match or not so call around to a number of dealers who sell your speakers and ask them for their recommendations. You might even drop the manufacturer an email and ask for their recommendation.

Once the above has been completed I believe you should be very happy.

I feel your pain. Experience and time have made me wiser. I have learned the following essentials : 1. Listening position and speaker position to be optimised . 2.Clean Power from the distribution board to the equipment . No need for power conditioners. 3. Cables ; power cable , interconnect and speaker cable of decent quality. If possible all from the same range. Try cleaning the contact surfaces of cables 4. Room acoustics. Bass traps for full range speakers and diffusers at first reflection points. Need not be expensive. Room symmetry helps. 5. New components need burn in and cables need to settle .6. Check if old amplifiers and preamps need recapping or new valves .7.most important is that if you like the sound and nothing irritates you then relax and enjoy the music. Nothing is perfect. The more you spend the greater the expectation.    Should the above fail consider trying insert a different component/cable , one at a time.  This may entail repositioning speakers.  

I realized yesterday that I'm totally happy with my system as is. It was a nice feeling.

Acoustic may be just fun experiments at no cost.... Upgrading without acoustic protocol is a rabbit hole....

Room treatments often give a substantial sonic benefit, often ignored by some  audiophiles.  

Also, it would be very helpful to know what you're sonically dissatisfied with (transparency, soundstage, noise floor, bass tightness...) and which direction you'd like to go.  Would help us to narrow down the problems and solutions specific to your situation.

I think dialing in speaker positioning, researching what reasonable room treatments (aesthetics and space constraints should be observed if such things are important - if not, go nuts!) are viable, and try applying these practices to your listening room.  We can’t all be so lucky to have perfect rooms AND top-notch gear.  
 

I would suggest asking yourself what is the least-strong, most-lacking sonic element in your listening experience.  If the answer to this question can yield, after some studious research, potentially viable remedies, try them out.  Those are wonderful speakers.

I find that this rabbit hole induces more grief than enjoyment.  This isn’t a way to live.  You have wonderful gear, it sounds like you have a good-sized room to fill with beautiful music.

This doesn’t have to be a terminal illness. Exercise due care with the speaker positioning, maximize your room’s potential, and keep in mind that the ideal life is something equal-to or greater-than a 2:1 ratio; for every hour you spend chasing your tail, you should spend at least 2 hours enjoying beautiful music.  I know this sounds like proselytizing, and I know getting out of the psychological quagmire is easier said than done.  I’ve been there, believe me.

I think with some reasonable expectations and sensible choices (technically and personally) you could have a wonderful life with music.

Synergy could be an issue? Has the Levinson 333 been serviced? Might be due? Have you considered upgrading to an 804 D4?  Your gear has very good resale value take advantage of that and upgrade ASAP.

Hey Pato,

 Where do you live. Oregon, Portland, Eugene. Seattle?

Lots of excellent ideas to think about.

If you are in Portland, we have a group called The Audiofoos (because we foolishly spend money on foolishness). Our wives tend to agree.

 If you can find a few audiophiles in your area with whom you can share this great hobby, look them up and see/hear other systems. If you're lucky, you can try a few pieces, etc.

I tend to I agree with- room treatment first.

Go Ducks!

I would go with C and B drivers. They are the best and have the most resolution. Then switch over to Smith Brothers speaker cables, they’re best if you leave them plugged in and let them run all night. If they stop in the middle of the night just put a little bit of lube around the tip and then re-insert and they’ll fire right back up. When you get to the power cord don’t go with any less than a FBC 16awg with.9999999 full arabica silver. It’s the only way to go.

I strongly suggest you optimize your room before spending any more money. I think you know by now that our hobby has us  always trying to improve our sound and to me that is part of the fun.

Country/Western/and Rap. That would be CRAP. 

On another note, I listen to everything except country/western and rap.  

Thank you all of you for the amazing feedback and knowledge.  I am not new to this life style.  I do have multiple systems in my house.  I am fortunate that I have a dealer in Seattle where I listen to a $1m system of Dan D’Agostino  and Wilson Audio and have been working with the same guy for years. 
 

I agree that the room is a big culprit.  I have thought about moving this system, but my wife and I really enjoy the space and the view.

I am enjoying spending time getting to know this system as it is really new - to me.  I just changed out the tubes 2 weeks ago and have only spent 4 hours listening to it.  

I would ask just what are you listening to to judge how good your system is?  If you were born in 1944 is your reference point mid-60’s jazz and classical, or Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane?  Either way, I would want more speaker than your 804s to deliver the goods in a 25’x20’ space.  No substitute for cone area.  Look into Revel F328Be or others of that scale. 

You didn’t mention what volume you enjoy but in a big room, you probably need that big power. At more moderate levels, You might try a good tube amp & see if you like the sound. It should be very different, more air, more body, richer tone if those are to your liking. Actual bigger power & really good sound in tubes does cost some decent $. It’s a real credit to Levinson & other well made stuff that they last so long & considering that, aren’t as expensive as they might seem. 

Getting great sound can be challenging. Given what you have said there are at least three entry points to start answering your question.

I have been at this fifty years and over the last few decades have reached great plateaus where I was really happy… before I was able to afford another upgrade cycle. I have the best system I have ever heard to my tastes (my UserID).

First, what kind of sound do you want? There were a number of experiences in my history that stuck out. They were incredibly musical systems where I was completely sucked into the music… is this perhaps it? You get detail, slam, imaging but it just doesn’t have an emotional connection? I recommend you visit some showrooms. You want to experience the extremes… high end all tube system, planar speaker system, all MAC. If you have a sound to shoot for, it will save a lot of time and money. I was sidetracked looking for details and slam for a long time… at the expense of musicality (rhythm and pace)… an easy trap.

You have a heterogeneous collection of equipment… all of which have loyal fans and are highly regarded, however. Levinson has a very specific sound, accurate well balanced but very sterile to my ear. MAC has a very distinctive sound, heavy midrange and bass, short on details (great for rock).. I can’t imaging these components are synergistic.

Your listing position / room. Lots to do here. 12’ apart is too much. Try an equilateral triangle about 6’ to start. Speakers away from the wall. Room treatments … behind + at reflections and behind. Spend a lot of time here.

Interconnects are not going to fix the problem. Once you have the sound you want, then get more into that stuff.

Your Bluesound is good for the money… but is a really budget piece of gear.  

So, if it was my system. This is what I would do.

1) Work to get the most out of your current system through room treatments and positioning (toe in).

2) Survey the sonic possibilities… to identify the sound you want. Listen to high end systems… to identify the sound… you can achieve a similar sound at a much smaller budget… this will tune your ear to what you want and sonic differences.

3) Read The Absolute Sound and Stereophile to familiarize yourself with possible components to move you in the direction you want to go. Read Robert Harley’s The Compete Guide to High End audio. Take your time. Enjoy the journey.

4) Swap out one component at a time moving in the direction you want to go. Evaluate… did it do what you wanted to do?

you should try the Wyred 4 sound 10th anniversary dac, very analog sounding and the reviews have been very positive, beats much more expensive dacs.

if you change your cables to OCC single Crystal it'll be unbelievably better, transparent uses ofc wire which has 4 to 500 Crystal barriers per foot which is little fractures in The wire, o c c wire has no fractures in the wire for 125 m do the research and you'll see what people say about OCC single crystal wire.

I can tell you Mc with tubes is way better then solid state. The b&ws never gave me wow sound so I would look into speaker selection

Sorry, test and be ordered for free from Acoustic Sciences in Oregon. 

https://www.acoustic.ua/forms/calculator4.en.html

For a small fee, have your room analyzed with a M.A.T.T. test and stop the guess work  

Definitely acoustically treat your room

and reposition your speakers

These changes can open up your system into a new level

of sound.  I would try room treatment then speaker placement and

I think you will be amazed

You have capable equipment already

Good luck

Willy-T 

OP,  
In my setup I use absorption panels behind the speakers as well as diffusion panels. I’m no expert but they do help and having furniture and shelves in your listening area make a big difference. You can experiment by removing all your furniture in your room then you’ll realize how important room acoustics and room treatments are. You can see my system on my profile. I’m still playing with it but at least you can get an idea. Thank you. 

I hope you don’t have the pool table between you and the speakers....

Before anything else, like others have pointed out, try to find the best place for the speakers in combination with your listening place. And don’t be too close to the wall behind you. And...turn the bass down. Bass is essential but too much bass kills the music. Buy a mic and use REW to measure your room response.

Godducks44

The room is close to square, which is not great acoustically. Judicious acoustic treatment will help, as will getting the speakers away from room boundaries.

Have you gotten less satisfied with the tonal balance of the system since the amplification change?. In that case, the Levinson 333 may be your issue.

Personally, I found that the Madrigal era Levinsons could be a little sterile sounding.

I have the mc452 with BW speakers but only use it to run the subwoofer. 

JC 5 runs the main speakers. Bluesound is good but they need an external DAC to really sing. Since you are in a garage,  try a room correction software.  That really helps 

@goducks44 , can you ever be satisfied? Yes, absolutely. The problem is that you have to know what you like and how to get there without spinning your wheels.

If you are unhappy with the sound of your system it is far more than likely that you are unhappy with your speakers and room. While electronics particularly amplifiers do make a difference they are at best 10% of the show. 

Before you spend more money you need to find all the dealers near you and listen to as many speakers as you can. Shows will be starting up again. Do your research and take your time. Good speakers will last you a life time. Do not shy away from listening to very expensive systems. You have to have points of reference. Listen to all types of speakers, horns and planars. point source and line source. If you have any small clubs near you go listen to live music, another point of reference. 

Once you have the right speakers you have to deal with the room in the context of those loudspeakers. If you want to be scientific about it get one of these so you can see what you have to do and measure the results. 

Quick answer: NO.  You have an addiction , a fever, and you will never be satisfied until and if the fever/addiction tempers and washes through you.  Eventually you'll get over missing the arrival of the new toy and the hearing the new sound, maybe.  If you have the cash now, you may really be in for the long hall though because the temptation spend money is strong.  But just in case you want to drop another $6,000, get a Holo Audio May KTE to feed from your Bluesound Node.  I did that with my C2700, MC611s and Legacy Focus SEs, huge sound improvement.  I feel like my fever is starting to ebb.  Maybe.

Fix the room 1st. Treatments? Using the rule of 1/3’s, 1/5 for speaker placement. You don’t need equilateral setup, if you read Jim Smith’s book/video, he uses 85% (?) distance between the speakers to how far you are away from them. Also, you probably don’t want those tweeters beaming straight at you, try forward facing with little toe in, Then get a McIntosh or Classe amp to tone down the sizzling B&W speakers. Every dealer I saw with B&W speakers always used these amps for good reason, remember B&W bought Classe years ago which were warm sounding amps. You have a weak digital setup compared to your other audio components. Get a good external dac with Ethernet and/or i2s, there are many from $5k up, move the bluesound to a bedroom or an area used for background music and use a computer with roon or get an Auralic Aries/gx or nucleus if you don’t want to deal with computers. If you cartridge is old, get a new 1 or get yours rebuilt. 

You know what helped me…? Listening to sound systems in my local shops. There are three places not too far from me and they each have a different approach and different gear. I listen to mine, and then I listen to the $280,000 system at the dealer and I don’t feel too bad…! Mine sounds close…but I can hear the room for improvement. Not having an unlimited budget makes each step exciting and semi torturous…

Nothing a few weeks in therapy might Cure. I’m having a blast. Hope you are too.

Ok the Bluesound is a decent digital transport as long as you use an external DAC. I recommend an “analog” sounding Lampizator Baltic 3 for that. You should also look into the Auralic Ares G1 or G2.1 streamer.

Those old transparent cables are sucking the life out of the system a bit. Try Shunyata delta or alpha level power cables (do not get the noise reduction connectors for the tube gear get the XC not NR…NR is for solid state and does weird things with tube gear I tried them with) and then for something accurate for speaker and interconnects an American company called Kubala Sosna you will find has more resolution but won’t emphasize treble or sound weird like other brands and I recommend Temptation level in the middle to start. That’s what I use in my YG Accoustics Carmel 2’s. Your B&W speaker has a more forward sound with the diamond tweeter and you need a cable that is accurate and won’t turn them into double treble murder canons. GTT Audio can help you with the cables and maybe upgrading the streamer to the next level with an Auralic Ares. Fred can help you over at Lampizator North America since they sell direct. Sources are all neglected it’s not just the amps. That old Linn is cool but a better turntable is a Kronos Sparta 1.0 that has a counter rotating plater underneath the main plater to counteract all vibration but turntable last.

Amps to look into are Belles Audio….Think Pass Labs and McIntosh with more resolution but better value. Audio Connection in NJ can help with them and they will  go perfect with your new preamp. You just need a Belles virtuoso stereo amp. 
If you can swing it try Mola Mola Kalugas they are class D and pair great with tubes and the treble is sweet and slightly rolled off to curtail the diamonds. I am 40 so I tried a lot of new tech most people refuse to try. The Mola Mola needs to be plugged in a whole day before they are ready to do critical listening. 

It sounds to me like you need time with your system. This hobby is a lot more subtle than we expect, a new system must go ‘crash, bang wallop’ for it to impress, but that isn’t what a capable system does. It took me a few months to fully appreciate what my system did, it delivers music so smoothly that it makes me sit and listen for hours. Now I understand it, I know exactly how I want to improve it; for rock and such I want more slam, so I’m looking into a subwoofer. I own a Gallo Acoustics TR3, the original, and it doesn’t quite deliver what I want hence why I’m looking at a new one. It was easy for me to hear what I want, because I was so familiar with the system. Similarly I know after that a new dac has to deliver on maximum clarity, I have a well damped room so I can afford to chase detail without worrying about bright fatigue. 
It’s easy to get a new system, expect the Earth to move because we are so attuned to bass heavy Bluetooth speakers and car stereos that we completely miss what the system is doing. Give it some time, patience will massively pay off in the end. I know you’re listening for a week, but honestly it took me at least two months to truly fall in love with what my system was giving me. Your ears will hear more and more of it as time goes and that will give you what you need to make wise additions/changes. Otherwise I guarantee you’ll buy something that perhaps you haven’t auditioned at home and be right where you are now. And if you just go for ‘loud’, you may be impressed at the start but in time you may find the system exhausting to listen to and realise that isn’t necessarily what you wanted. 

It's possible to stop chasing what is uncatchable and the first step is to stop or greatly reduce reading audio forums or message boards, at least that was part of what worked for me. I also got tired of the know-it-alls like the people who say component x doesn't mesh with speaker x or these wires aren't sufficient for system x, etc. If you want to continue to spend money on new (or new to you) gear and lose money on the stuff you sell (if you don't keep it), go for it.

In the end, it depends on who you are.
 

And I certainly agree with the advice about treating the room before buying anything else. It's your biggest component. I find most fatigue is caused by the room.

@willgolf , I agree 100%. No matter what you have, you'll always want to try or think there is something better. Your equipment is fine, and I do agree with @russ69 , Mac and B&W dont have good synergy. Many here have 2 or systems to listen to. There are times I dont turn my Yamaha system (AS3200, CDS2100, B&W 803 Nautilus) on and listen my Emotiva rig for hours (PT100, X300, B1+). And now I want to try a Luxman 590 with Lii Audio S10.  My room is a 24'x20'.  Enjoy the hobby.

I agree, that is one area that I would have on my “con” list.  I do like to push the system now and then.  I think that will help.

How’s the bass in your setup?  First thought, with the room size, would be to add a subwoofer.

Can you elaborate?  What have you done or recommend?