I would get a KEF Blade Meta (or Blade II Meta) and put it along the long wall.
I should start with speakers. This I know. I’d like to establish a new system.
Returning to a hobby I abandoned two decades ago as life interfered with my personal desires. I’d like to slip back in with a decent package for streaming the likes of Tidal and Qobuz. I’ve relieved myself of all software (vinyl and CDs).
I am currently drifting between horns or BBC sound. Two different worlds, but each intrigue me. Considering Volti Audio with Cary SLI80 Integrated while also Harbeth 40.2 with something like a VTL MB185 Series III. Schizophrenic I know.
Dedicated Room 12’W x 30’L x varied vaulted 11’H.
i’d appreciate any discussion or feedback on my personal dilemma. Opportunities to sample these pairings are not in my immediate grasp, but I can consider travel (SE USA) to educate myself in the process. Budget $20k on used market. TIA
Whatever Volti that fits your budget should be a good starting point. It’s been a long time since I heard Cary so I don’t know how it sounds, but, you are looking in the right power range. You could go even lower in power, but don’t stint on quality. If you can stretch to get the Synthesis Audio A40 amp, you will have a terrific s tube integrated amp that has a first-rate built in DAC. It runs KT66 tubes that, to me, generally sound better than KT88, 6550, KT120, and EL34 tubes. I like the 40.2 Harbeth speaker for its rich sound and large scale presentation. It is not as dynamic sounding as I like, particularly at lower volume levels. Volti speakers sound more alive. Good luck on your search. |
Welcome back my friend to the show that never ends. A good idea to get out and listen to different setups. Suggest checking out local dealers with listening rooms so you can determine which way you want to go. Most will let you try at home and return the equipment if you want something else. Hopefully someone in the southeast can give you some suggestions if you don’t have a dealer close by. Enjoy your new musical journey! |
It’s an extremely personal choice that’s not so different than choosing a favorite beer or who you think is beautiful. We can tell you what we like, but you’re the one in the executive decision seat. It’s very subjective. Speakers are also quite room dependent (and system dependent). It’s wise to pick the speakers, then get an amp suitable for driving them. (I do like tubes) If possible, try as many in your home as you can. Used can be a great way to get the most for the money if the right deal comes along, but are harder to audition in your home...however, they tend to resell for close to what you paid, should you change your mind. Good local dealers are harder to come by than they were 20 years ago. Kits are another good option for getting a lot for the money, but are also difficult to try in home, and tend to not resell as easily. The BBC sound leans toward a smoother rich more refined tone with subtle details. Horns are typically more lively and more efficient. Some names you might consider that weren’t as common two decades ago - Joseph Audio, Usher, Sonus Faber, Fyne, Revel, Magico, Totem, Gershman. I’m sure others will offer more suggestions. Active powered subwoofers are plentiful now too, and are a great way to fill a large room with solid bottom octaves without having a monster main speaker, and can help the main speakers sound clearer by removing the responsibility of producing the lowest octaves. . My advice is to buy what you love, but finding it is the hard part! Enjoy your search, and good luck!
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When I did what you're doing, here in Denver, CO, I took the following approach: * Joined an audio club. There are now people in my area to talk to and hear their systems, for free. * Began asking questions on the forum. If you search my handle here, you can see that many of the questions I've posed are basic, informational. They may be helpful. * Visited local brick and mortar stores. * Bought used at TMR and then returned a couple pairs (minus re-stocking fee). These steps allowed me to develop a stronger sense of my preferences. Speakers first, then amp and preamp. |
With $20k to work with you have set some lofty equipment goals. Source/cables/room acoustics/vibration control/power conditioning/equipment racks etc. are not throw away accessories. When buying used components condition/user history always surpasses cost. Consider dealer demo gear as a safer alternative. |
I ran a SLI-80 for a while. It's a nice, solidly built integrated with plenty of power and lots of tube-rolling ability to tailor the sound to what you like. I also like that there is factory support and service available from Cary. Plus, it looks great. Mine was an older version with the tube rectifiers so it had even more tubes, which I liked. |
Your room is long enough where you can set up 1 pair of speakers on front wall and another pair of speakers on the backwall. Rotate the chair 180 degrees everytime the schizophrenic hits. Personally, I would ignore the BBC stuff and go with a) a horn and b) a panel llike a magnepan or something. |
@yyzsantabarbara KEF Blade Meta? In a 20k budget? Is that possible? |
food for thought https://speakerchoices.com/ |
@tomcarr Agreed. If I was in the position of the OP, I do the following: 1. Try to size up the assets and challenges of the acoustics of the room. 2. With the information gained above, I'd try to treat the rooms major flaws, focusing first on 20hz to 300 hz, since those frequencies have to be mastered before dealing with the rest of the range. I'd work a bit, next, on 300hz-20khz. 3. Having brought the room to a baseline of decent response, I'd do a bit of research on speakers and amps that will match my tastes and my room. 4. Next, I'd start borrowing speakers or buying, used. I'd get a decent solid state amp (used, hopefully a keeper) that can drive a bunch of speakers. That would be the "launch sequence" to getting the basis of a good system going, in my opinion. Sum:
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Of course it depends on what you value most; smooth rich sound w/ nice subtle details often w/ good 3 D imaging or more live, dynamic sound that can rock out without straining or requiring heroic amplification. Very challenging to find both in speakers that cost under $20K. You’ve got a big room so if you like to play loud & enjoy music w/ real bass, a high sensitivity speaker may be your only choice in your price range. Volti Rivals work very well for me in a big room w/ good tube amplification (Rogers High Fidelity). |
@hilde45 A local guy to me is selling an almost new Blade 1 Meta for $18k. His ad and 2 others for under $20k are on USAM. I was tempted to buy since the Blade has been my fav speakers for about a decade. However, I decided that the Yamaha NS5000 I own now is something I want to stay with. Only issue with the Blade for the OP is that the Op’s power amp maybe too weak for the Blades. I would pair the Blades with either the $2k Schitt Wotan or the $20k CODA #16. Both of which I own. Those 2 amps have prodigious power. The Wotan is not at the sonic levels of the #16 (but close). It is at the level of many apps that are considered top notch. Schitt also have a 15-day home trial.
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+1 Yep, look at contemporary speakers. I would review Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and HiFi+ recommended component issues. Concentrate on descriptions that strike you as your liking in sound quality. Then get on the road. Make appointments with a couple dealers in advance to audition the best fit two or three. Find the one with the emotional connection. Not just that has the most detail and best slam. |
Yes. I’d suggest trying to decide if you want to go the A) higher efficiency speaker and lower power amp route. Or, B) the lower efficiency speaker and higher power amplifier route. Each path provides its own journey and type of sound. Each of these types of systems can provide a very different presentation and experience. If you are comparing any new to used components, you can ask dealers if they have customers in your region who could show and share their systems - with the speakers or components you are looking at. Sometimes this can work out nicely. I’ve done some 2-day overnighters to go see and listen to other peoples systems. This can be helpful to get ideas of what YOU like. Traveling to a good audio show can be a real eyes and ears opener too. Take your time if you can, it will pay off and prevent major do-overs later on. |
This is exactly the type of discussion and feedback I was hoping for. Hilde45, Thanks for the process notes as well as thoughts from larryi and knotscot. All helpful. Brick and mortar showrooms are hard to find outside of larger metropolitan areas, so I’m trying to first gain insight through verbal discussion and feedback before setting off on my quest during a renovation of my future home and listening room. History - my first foray into the audio hobby began in the 80’s with Vandersteen 2s, then 2Cs along with Stan Warren’s ugly little Superphon Revalation preamp (replaced by ARC SP9) and Adcom GFA-555 amplifier. My last system in 2005 was based on Thiel CS6es driven by a pair of VTL MB450s. Not sure of the other elements of that final system as I seemed to have been continually moving pieces in and out at the time. I look forward to enjoying the music again now that I’ve retired with time to focus anew on a most pleasant pastime. |
I like the idea of traveling to audio shows. I’ll need to keep an eye out for where and when can work for me. And yes, I’ll need to take my time. I was getting a bit antsy once I restarted my journey. Reading reviews and discussions herein along with the vast array of products gets me a bit worked up. I can be too impulsive. After all, the hunt is fun. |
Choosing a speaker first may be a good direction to take, however making that choice should and really must involve some serious auditioning. If it were me attempting to make my speaker choice FIRST, and assuming that I discovered a set of loudspeakers that really "rang my bell" (assuming that the audition involved some music and recordings that I enjoy and am familiar with), after the audition, I would make careful note as to the exact components used in the audition. Next, I would attempt to locate another knowledgeable brick and mortar dealer that has the same speakers but is recommending different system components to drive them. This approach gives a person an opportunity to determine how those speakers perform with a different set of variants. If you come away from audition two, with a satisfactory conclusion, than there is better than a 50/50 chance that you will truly be satisfied with the purchase. Especially if you choose your components as a Frankly I have found over the past 30 years or so of working with a wide range of audio reproduction components at all price levels, that most people I have run into tend to do their selection process in reverse to what you are planning. Honestly, I can't authoratively say either approach is the best road to take. One thing I can inequitably say and recommend to you, is to "stay away from audio shows as a definitive way of making component selections".. Frankly, I haven't heard an audio demonstration since the late 50's at a major audio show, that really" rocked my boat" and has stuck in my mind all of these years. I noticed HARBETH as a recommendation. HARBETH is very high on my list of top speaker choices, but - - - I consider HARBETH a musician's speaker. Classical and Jazz sound incredibly realistic, (depending on room setup) They are not necessarily the most likeable choice for a person who has musical tastes in the direction of "ROCK", FUNK"; ABSTRACT MODERNISTIC SOUNDS, etc.. Especially to a person who prefers disproportionate, over driven bass reproduction. There are a lot of fine speakers out there depending on taste. {Choose wisely grasshopper") |
“HARBETH is very high on my list of top speaker choices, but - - - I consider HARBETH a musician's speaker. Classical and Jazz sound incredibly realistic.” My music taste is all over the map. I do like classical, acoustic and human voice. I’ve mostly left the hard rock of my youth, however I did enjoy “Becoming Led-Zeppelin” at an iMax theater this weekend. |
Huh, What?? Harbeth is not a musician’s speaker. This is a musician’s speaker, made by the guys who made all the musical instruments.
Harbeth knows something these guys didn’t? or what?
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That's great to know. I don't know how the OP feels, but in my view, $18k or so on speakers almost depletes his $20k limit. If I had speakers as good as the Blades, I'd probably want a bit more in reserve for a power amp and other aspects of the system to fully optimize those speakers. $18k leaves him $2k, which doesn't leave enough budget, IMHO. |
@hilde45 I thought the $20k budget was for speakers. The NS5000 speaker that is posted above is a killer speaker and what I got for about $11k new. I tried it with the Wotan and the #16. I think all my gear was under $20k, new and used. I listen to a lot of Zep on the NS5000. BTW - for Blades you need a nice long wall. A lot of people place them in a confined space. |
@yyzsantabarbara Good point. I wasn’t sure if he was planning to spend beyond that on other stuff. When you suggested he could get the Wotan for $2k, it made me think that it was $20k overall, not just for speakers. Otherwise, you could choose a more expensive amp option rather than just ensuring your suggestion (for Kef + Wotan) come out to a neat $20k. I may be in error. |
@toontrader Richard Vandersteen is still around, and still relevant. One of the coolest "got it together" guys I've met in all my years of audio. |
Volti Razz paired with a Cary SLI 80HS here and could not be happier! The synergy between them is sublime, like they were designed to work together. I’ve heard Volti plenty of times with Border Patrol amps and the sound is quite beautiful. But for me the Cary does everything i need and then some. Hits hard when I want to rock with Tool or Sanguisuabogg, or relax with Bill Evans and Oscar Peterson. |
You will change whatever you start with, so make a start with used speakers, get listening, learn about the room. I don’t care how much money you have, I would start with this pair of JSE Infinite Slope Model II’s. Two unique patents make discernable differences. Have seller drop them off unpackaged for you at his local UPS Pack and Ship (who you pre-arrange with). Rosewood (walnut stained reddish)
They are easy for a woodworker to cover in a new select veneer after you fall in love with them. Recommended substitute drivers are known, the grille’s wood frame’s are easy to simply staple new cloth, the results will stand up against nearly anything you audition to replace them. Change from 4 to 3 wheels, get advantages of easy movement Toe-In Alternates, Stereo and Video btw, they are shown backwards, you want the tweeters narrow beam on the inside
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this rare model 4 with 1 damaged tweeter might still be available seller says local pickup in Florida Model II’s started with D21 tweeters, most were blown/replaced, several options exist, the D28 above was the tweeter for the Model 1.8 Model II Bass is a 10" and a 12" with the Bass Phase Shift Patent Model 4, their last product: Bass is two 10" (in more cu. ft. cabinet), with the Bass Phase Shift Patent. I never saw or heard a Model 4, the Model II has more than enough bass IMO, and I prefer it’s appearance,
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@toontrader Having owned both Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary's and horn speakers, I prefer horns. I'm currently using Cary SLI 80 HS with factory cap and hexfred rectifier upgrades. Pairing this integrated with upgraded EL34's and NOS tubes is a sneaky good combo with horn speakers. So based upon first hand experience, I'd pick the Volit / Cary combo over the much more expensive Harbeth 40.2's. |
If you are considering speakers other than a Volti or Harbeth 40.2, you should here a range of types—conventional box speakers, panel speakers like Magnepans, open baffle speakers like PureAudioProject. speakers meant for placement in the corners of the room, like Audio Note speakers, and other speaker types that you can see at shows. The brands I mentioned above consistently deliver good sound, in my opinion. Also, don’t stretch to get a speaker out of your price range if it means going cheap on the amp. The right amp is very important to getting the right sound. |
I still own/have owned 1/2 of the speakers that somebody listed above. If you post you want opinions on a speaker, 100 people will reply with a 100 different recommendations. IMO, start going to audio shows like the Tampa Show this weekend and you will see maybe 100 different speakers. There are many speakers that are better than the kef blades for quite a bit less money. If you want some great sounding speakers for your room, used, you can pick up a pair of Revel Salon 2’s for $10k and would never need another speaker, then you will need a very good amp to power them. Look at the Usher BE10’s used for $7k, Usher BE20’s for $10k used, or the Totem Winds for $5k-$8k. If you want something very close to the Kef Blades for 1/5 the cost, look at the Kef LS60’s that are active meaning they have the amps/dacs built in to the speakers. I’ve auditioned both speakers in the same largish room and I would buy the LS60’s. All you need is an Ethernet cable (or WiFi) and power to each speaker and you are done. Because you have a large room, I would also add 2 of the Kef subs which are easy to add to the LS60’s via the Kef app on your iPhone. |
I used to own the Revel Salon1 for 5 years and have heard the Salon2 a few times. For my ears the Salons are not as fun as the Blades. The thing with the Blades is that the soundstage on that thing is incredible. The aluminum Blade drivers are not my favorite but that soundstage, especially on a long wall placement is the best I have heard. I always have fun listening to the Blades. In terms of cone drivers, I have not heard anything better than the Zylon drivers in the Yamaha NS5000. The Zylon is similar to Beryllium (BE) in the tweeter of the Salon2. However, while companies like Paradigm can make a BE tweeter and midrange in the Persona lineup, Yamaha is the only company to make tweeter, mid, and woofer from the SAME material. What that means is an incredibly coherent sound, especially when the cone material maybe the best around. Yamaha actually had the first BE tweeter and mid in the 1970’s in the NS1000. I love the soundstage on the Blades and love the sound of the NS5000. My ideal speaker is a Blade with Zylon drivers. Even the Paradigm Persona 9H with Zylon (instead of BE and the woofer material) would be something special. Saying all of this, the Blades are great, the NS5000 is great, and the Persona can be made great with some work. I take the NS5000 from this cohort. |
@toontrader, when I read @tomcarr 's comment
followed by @hilde45 's
I suspect that many of us got the first part of 'Sum' bass ackwards either long ago or too recently to be entirely comfy with, so.... New home? Lucky....built to a plan of theirs' or yours'? Make a sketch or copy that area of the plan with door/windows/ac plugs with the ceiling detail(s). Dimension all. Have it on phone or laptop when you prowl the B&M's. Consider the what, where, and why. Have a great time. ;) 👍😎 J |
@hilde45 OMG, I shrank your post. 🙄 |
@hilde45 You have given some great advice @toontrader let’s circle back on your room dimensions. They could be a real challenge or you could do something really specia. The long wall may very well play into an outstanding fit for large Magnepans like the 3.7i and a sub(s), and something quite different on the narrow end, maybe British and more ’intimate’. KEF F, B&W amd Monitor Audio all offer excellent choices for that application. It really is a unique opportunity. On the other hand, it think the room is just too long to be well served by a single pair of traditional cone speakers. Horns biggest benefit is controlled directives, which could make a very small listening window if used on the long wall. Cones might have broader coverage, but thats a lot of room volume for them to fill with the amps being mentioned. |
Your on right path with the Volti's, horns don't require loads of power which helps to keep total costs down. Horns specialize in bringing performers into the room perspective, pair them with some 300B SET amp and you'll have the beginnings of a great system.
Starting with speakers is how I've always built systems, matching amp is absolutely necessary at this point. I also like the open baffle suggestions if you're after the performers in room perspective. They may require more from an amp so that's a consideration. Over many decades I evolved from box to open baffle to horns, horns matched with SET amp is magic for me. Again, the Volti's would be a great initial choice, they're an evolution from Klipsch Heritage, that's saying a lot. |
$20K budget means you will need to buy used to get max value. Even then you are going to have to be a sharp negotiator. I'd start with listening to different speakers where you can- dealer, friend, etc. Listen to the leaders in their class- ie: Maggies, Wilson, Sonus, Bryston. Each type has a "voice" that is somewhat consistent throughout the type (ie: Electrostatic vs. cone vs. hybrid) Once you pick out "your sound" buy the best speakers you can afford. IMO speakers have the most dramatic and identifiable effect on your rig. The next is a toss up- The saying "put your money in your DAC" saying has a lot of truth to it. Then your amp. IMO tubes are best for depth and soundstage but there are some fantastic SS amps out there these days that get pretty close. Expect about a year to get this all right- and maybe some mistakes along the way. The process is fun if you you're a journey kind of guy. Most here on these forums are. |
Lots of info offered some pretty good, others not worth the time. We are a manufacturer of audio components and have been doing equipment repairs for 25 plus years. We have heard more equipment than probably everyone posting here combined. That being said: Forget Harbeth 40.2 - consider the Revival ATALANTE 5 speakers at around $5K. Better sounding in every way. I am also hearing very good things regarding the PMC speakers from a very good source although I have not heard them yet. I was not a fan of the old designs. The other speakers I would go listen to would be the Vandersteen Quattro. You can get amazing sound from them even against setting them up against the wall. That can be helpful if your wife is involved in this decision, etc. Happy Listening.
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Huh, what? He needs to buy used with 20k for max value?? What??
Speaker: Tekton Epic 15 ($2400, new, made in the USA) Subwoofer: Tekton Cinema Sub ($1050 new) Amp: Schiit Freya+ tube preamp ($1000 new) + Schiit Wotan poweramp ($2000 new, made in the USA) Dac: Schiit Gungnir 2 ($1600 new) Conditioner: Audioquest Powerquest 707 ($1300 new) Sum Total, (new, made in the USA): $9350 Balance: $10650
I might just eat my hat if some 300k Daryl Wilson & D’oggastino rig sounded better. He even had 10k left over to get himself a nice suit, go watch some wind ensembles and dance companies.
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For $20K you can buy brand new and have a really good all around speakers. Consider a Coda CSiB Integrated Amplifier and Legacy Audio Focus Speakers. Contact James Thompson at Destination Hifi and I'm sure he would make you a nice package deal delivered to your door. https://destinationhifi.com/products/coda-csib-integrated-amplifier |
I should start with speakers. This I know.@toontrader I’m not sure this is actually the best approach. But here are some tips. The first thing you need to sort out is your budget, since if the speaker is inefficient you’ll need a lot of power and a powerful power amp that actually sounds like real music can be an expensive proposition. So this points to the idea that perhaps a more efficient speaker would be a good move. The other thing to keep in mind is that the lower the impedance of the speaker, the harder it is to drive, the more critical the speaker cables become and the more distortion the amp (regardless of technology) will make. So again from a simply ’best sound’ point of view a speaker of higher efficiency and moderate impedance is a good idea. Distortion in the amplifier obscures detail and can make the system sound harsher. Inefficient speakers have another problem known as ’thermal compression’. This is where the voice coil heats up due to the power being put through it; as it heats up it becomes less efficient and its harder to put current through it. So the speaker tends to compress, which is to say becomes less dynamic. Your room is on the larger size of things so again efficiency is important. Since you are already considering horns another advantage is that amps of less power often tend to sound better, especially if the amp is a tube amp. Here’s something else to consider: In many rooms you get a phenomena known as a standing wave. This is where the bass waveform is so long that it can bounce off the rear wall and coming forward, can cancel itself. No amount of room correction can fix this sort of thing because room correction depends on amplifier power and if its being canceled, even 1000 Watts won’t fix it. The solution for this is multiple subs asymmetrically placed so to break up the standing wave. Audiokinesis makes a sub designed for this called the Swarm. Essentially they are placed against the wall in various spots and as long as they are not active above about 80 Hz will not attract the attention of the ear. This can work because at 80 Hz the waveform is 14 feet long, which means by the time your ear has sorted out what note is being played, the bass note has bounced all over the room and is entirely reverberant. So you can use a mono signal to drive all the subs. The advantage of this is that the main speakers don’t really have the plumb the bottom octave. If they roll off at 40-50Hz you’ll have no problems blending them with the subs. This means there are a lot of smaller speakers that will be easy to place or you can use horn speakers that have horn loaded woofers (which in most cases, don’t go much below 60Hz). Good Luck with the quest!
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Some of the responses here are extremely helpful. In my experience with tube amplification Harbeth speakers didn’t sound nearly as compelling as compared to single driver or horn speakers. I endorse the idea of trying to listen to a lot of speakers before buying and I would suggest you hear DeVore O96 speakers. They are marvelous with tubes! Good luck! |
The Schlitt gear recommendation is something I have realized is great advice. I used to have a negative opinion of this company before I took a chance and ordered some gear. Their products cost a lot less and they had a unique name and marketing approach. I was a little turned off by this. After hearing the gear, I am all in. One thing I would suggest is to wait until late summer 2025 for the new Schitt DACs. I am holding onto my Schitt Yggi+ LIM DAC to upgrade to the new iteration of the Yggi+. The Yggi+ chassis and internals are upgradeable. I will never part with the Schitt Yggi+ OG DAC which is no longer available. I sold a $15k DAC to go with the Yggi+ OG. This DAC was recently in a shootout with the Mola Mola Tambaqui and Chord Dave. Comments are on Head-fi. It did not beat them in preference but did not lose either. I am selling a $7k amp to go with the $2k Wotan (for my office with Maggies).
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If I was starting from scratch, and just wanted streaming, i'd look at active speakers from KEF. Then you won't have to worry about bi- or tri-amplification, interconnect cables, speaker cables or much else. Because they approximate point sources, room treatment is much less important. The only things left to obsess about are your internet connection and maybe a couple of power cables and an Ethernet cable. |
@OP. If you don't already have the other system components, you should not start with speakers. You should start with the entire system. The speaker-amplifier interface is especially important because your room size, listening position, preferred listening volume and impedance and efficiency characteristics of the speakers, along with the output impedance of the amplifier will have a major bearing on your choices. |
@atmasphere Good advice, something I discovered on my audiophile journey, inefficient and/or insensitive speakers require watts, and not just watts, quality watts. Any amp capable of delivering quality watts brings a price, the more there are the greater the cost. |