How do you add color?

DeVore speakers are described as colorful but not colored. I would agree with that statement.

Component-wise, I do it with the DAC and pre-amp.

I had a tube DAC but comments here helped me understand that tubes in the input chain might be removing too much information. So, now, they're out.

Adjustments come, in descending order of impact, from 

(a) tube preamp input tube and 

(b) DAC.

Some adjustments also come from

(c)alternating between SS and tube amps and

(d) adjusting room treatments.

I have not found cables to move the needles significantly for my setup. The other variables have a much larger impact.

The artist adds color.  so to get more color I listen to a lot of new music looking for gems.

I prefer texture for instruments and flesh tone for vocalists. IMO color implies over saturation of tone/timbre. The best way to achieve this is with source components Phono Preamp/Cartridge or Dac. 

For the room, diffusion.  Adds color and imaging to an over treated room.

Otherwise, my preference has always been the preamp with either something sweet and liquid sounding like a Luxman, or downright overly colorful like a Conrad Johnson.  Ayre may also qualify here.

The issue with tube amps has always been, in my mind, that it's a see saw balancing act between the tube amp and the speaker impedance curves.  I'd rather get a stiff solid state amp that is speaker neutral (by comparison to tubes) and use my preamp for color.

I hate when a system adds a color. It permeates all music played through that system. My goal has been to remove all color so as to achieve tonal neutrality and transparency to what is on the recording.

     Replace resistors with carbon-comps and caps with paper-in-oil, as much as possible.

           If using tube gear; pick NOS valves, manufactured in Britain.

          Always worked for the few customers of mine, that were so inclined.

Only analog source and tube equipment can get things done right. If you are lucky.

Don't expect much from the rest, save your funds.

The problem is not the lack or the excess of colors...

It is only a symptom or a manifestation of unbalanced components synergy or the presence of a too harsh and bright component or of a too warm one...

The debate between colors and neutral is a red herring from the real problem which is synergy between components and acoustic embeddings...Most of the time it is reducible to these three factors : badly designed harsh or too warm component instead of more neutral component , synergy between more colored and less colored components and the right acoustics embeddings of them all...

Then que question to ask is not how to add color to a liveless harsh and fatiguing or too clinical system but how to create a balance and a synergy between the components/room...

We cannot and should not add color to a system , instead we must create a better synergy and balance between each components using electrical, mechanical and acoustical embeddings controls to the necessary synergy between dac and amp and speakers .....

To answer rightfully to a question implied that the question must be ask in the right way...

And remember that as much as upgrading a "defective" component is not the solution to the problem of balance between component by itself, (for example buying tubes components),  nor a solution for their optimal workings condition ; embeddings controls are the solution after the right created synergy is reach... And this is true with or without tube components or with or without analog or digital components... These debates between tubes and S.S. are BESIDE  the problem...And people often present upgrade or purchase as a solution, which is not and cannot be  by itself THE COMPLETE SOLUTION...

Oh, almost forgot.  Mundorf Supremes, used in B&W and Magico, are very colorful, almost splashy. 

An expensive but effective way to add color, IMHO.  Too much for me! :)

I think that speakers or electronics that portray timbre and texture well are perceived by the mind as "colorful."

You are DEFINITELY looking at the wrong avenue.

To enhance or color sound you need professional equipment such as sequencers, limiters, compressors and other effects. You can also go Youtube and get some idea on "making music for beginners" which basically instructs you on how to mix and enhance sounds. 

It's more entertaining than hi-fi especially if you've ever played any music on your own.

I think that speakers or electronics that portray timbre and texture well are perceived by the mind as "colorful."

Yes they are perceived as such because of the contrast with badly designed components which usually are harsh and analytical...

But in acoustics experience , timbre and texture are experienced optimally in BALANCED system/room with BALANCED and synergetical components...

Then we must wish FOR BALANCE not for colors...Even if a bit of unbalance may well serve and answer to some taste and even if perfect balance is not always the optimal possible  answer in particular case..

To clarify my post, I understand what you mean about adding color. But what I am suggesting is components which allow the color to pass through. To be dramatic, my Delta Sigma DAC is like this blinding bright white light putting a laser beam through the music. Dropping in my NOS DAC, the colors in the music suddenly appear. Neither is wrong, just depends on taste and the kind of music being played.

The most natural way to ADD color, in my very limited experience, is a tube amp. Preamps and source components add a more color but usually some type of haze obscuring music as well. As roxy54 said, softer sounding speakers which place higher emphasis on tone, not detail, can also be perceived as more colorful.

Color is in the details too not only in tone and timbre. You want it all. Tube preamp is very important, in addition to power amp.

As for DACs, why would any audiophile want to listen in digital what was recorded and mastered in analog and then try to get as close to analog source as possible ? Sounds strange, doesn’t it ?

If it was recorded/mastered in digital then, well, you have no choice, though good records still sound better even if the recording/mastering was done in digital.

@arafiq 

Consider adding Lampizator’s soon to be released Poseidon DAC between your Innuos ➡️ Vitus and call it a day! 

Foz-SSX

iFi Micro iTube2 Tube Buffer

You need the function to switch them in/out without dicking with wires. You'll end up spending bux on cables before you get "better" SQ than you have now.  Definitely different.

Great dacs like the T+A 200. Sound very natural with better detail then tubes ,

different  interconnects too from the dac can influence the sound .

myself mod the Speakers Xovers which is a Huge weak spot in most speakers 

including ones over $30k. Most use average at best parts quality especially if under $15 k that's why most speaker companies don’t mention it for there is nothing 

to Brad about they don’t test 10 different type of capacitors ,just sound decent good enough l in my latest build I spent over$1600in parts ,average speaker$500 at most. Just take a a driver to see for yourself.  TonyGee of Humble homemade hifi capacitor test  is over 90% accurate with his ratings and Sonic character.

Two things stand out in this conversation...tubes can be removing information (where do they put it? In cheap capacitors?), and sequencers can add color. Sequencers? In my experience while living in the actual world it seems tubes can get more detail out of a signal which may seem like "color" although it could (if tubes are pushed or old) simply be pleasant distortion...and sequencers allow synthesized sounds to be repeated, which isn’t "color" unless you have a very short attention span and need things to be repeated...or you’re recording your magnum opus like Wendy Carlos...or you don’t know what a sequencer is.

....tweak the eq a tad, punch a detail up or down.....’razor werk’, adjust the sub....

The ’color’ should already be there, lacking a little ’nuance’...;)

Otherwise....why are you listening to it? ;)

The problem is not the lack or the excess of colors...

It is only a symptom or a manifestation of unbalanced components synergy or the presence of a too harsh and bright component or of a too warm one...

The debate between colors and neutral is a red herring from the real problem which is synergy between components and acoustic embeddings.

I think this is exactly right. The word "color" is not helpful.

The question really is: "What are the ways to get my system to please my taste?"

If one answers with,

"I want to get back to the original recording’s intention" -- then:

(a) Do you want to sound like it did on their studio’s monitors (which were used to mix the recording)? Even if all recordings used the same monitors (and electronics), you’d be unable to do this for all the recordings you listened to.

(b) Do you want to capture the engineers’ intention? How would you know what that was? Which system did they intend it for? This would be impossible to determine and, again, varying from recording to recording.

(c) Ok, well maybe it’s a classical or live recording. You want to "hear the room." Ok, well where in the room do you want to be sitting? And what about your room’s acoustics? Maybe headphones are the answer, then.

If all these questions sound impossible to answer, then the above quotation is what you seek -- you want to try to please your own taste using room acoustics plus whatever else factors in. But let’s not talk about "getting back to the original recording" because that is a Fountain of Youth type of fantasy.

All this in mind, some equipment really does add additional harmonics and some room treatments do really muffle or over-exaggerate certain elements of the acoustics. If you like that -- fine. But if you don't, it's a question of knowing which levers to play with to reach your satisfaction or pleasure. It's not about what's "really" there. 

For home audio, you can add an equalizer and use it on or off and get any color you want for a lot less hustle. 

Equalizer mechanical or electronic one are tools not the solution... i used the two types ...

As building a house ask for many tools used in some balance way and in some order, you must use many tools and tweaks to reach a specific balance ratio for each system/room which will not be nor colored nor neutral but will display his specific "hue" ...

Synergy between components is the first factor, to create an ideal balance ask for more work and for some tools and embeddings controls ...

if we dont have synergy to begin with the rest of work will not be easy and inj many cases even doable...No amount of equalization will replace synergy in many cases or a component which pair not well with another one...

if you dac is too harsh coupling it with an analytical amplifier sound will not result in an optimal balance even if equalization will decrease the harshness or the fatigue a bit...And if the room is to echoing or not set for this case it will be more disastrous..

Reaching balance is a complex problems in all working embeddings dimensions and begin with the right or wrong synergy... It is not easy to figure it out, it was not for me...

Paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa?

i prefer the  boobs of Marianne on Napoleon...

😊

In hindsight, perhaps the choice of the term ’color’ was a wrong one to start with. The term might imply some sort of artificial sweetness or making the sound unnatural. That was not what I was aiming for. I started to write my response but then I read @hilde45 ’s last message. He pretty much summed up my thoughts, albeit, in a vastly eloquent manner :) I wholeheartedly agree with everything he said.

My intent was to discuss how to shape the sound signature to something you enjoy but without taking away from the intrinsic nature of the original recording. This does not imply bad synergy or other weaknesses in the chain. I’m sure this is not a novel idea. There’s a reason many audiophiles combine SS amps with tube preamps. or use a hybrid amp, and are happy with the results. Obviously there is more than one way to skin the cat. I never understood why some audiophiles are so dogmatic (my way is the only right way) about these things. Relax, it’s a hobby that’s supposed to make you happy -- whichever path you choose to take.

Early on in my audio journey, I too was enamored by tweaking the sound by introducing a tube dac in the chain. I tried a couple of tube dacs but overtime I concluded that it was not always the best strategy, at least for me. Nowadays, I prefer my DAC to pass on the information as accurately as possible without altering the signal. But that’s just my preference. I’m sure there are many on this forum who are digging the sound of a tube dac as we speak. That being said, I never tried higher end tube dacs from, say, Lampizator’s upper models. I might try this route in the future.

For now, I’m thinking of trying a tube preamp with my SS amp. I want to point out that I’m perfectly happy, in fact more than happy, with how my system sounds right now. It has all the tonality, texture, presence, etc. that I had always desired. So the urge to try a tube preamp is purely an experiment in the realm of ’what-if’. Just to push the envelope a bit more. It might not work out in the end. I guess there’s only one way to find out.

@roxy54

I think that speakers or electronics that portray timbre and texture well are perceived by the mind as "colorful."

Well said! It took me many years and lots of changes to reach the same conclusion. Like everyone else, I was more into 'detail' early on in my journey. But that, as impressive at it is, gets boring after a while. Timbre, texture, tonality is what helps you get emotionally connected with your music.

@arafiq Thanks for a nice thread. Enjoying it!

For now, I’m thinking of trying a tube preamp with my SS amp.

I really enjoy going back and forth from non-tube to tube preamp with my Pass XA-25. At first I enjoyed a preamp with an 12AT7 tube input (2 tubes). But once I tried a 6SN7 tube, I sold my first preamp without any regrets. If there's a good match between preamp and amp, you may hear what I did: a really inviting, smooth, more spacious soundstage and a midrange that really draws you in. Seductive is the word. Of course, there are many differences between systems, but those who love the 6SN7 used these types of descriptions and I found them apropos even in my room, with my speakers, etc. 

Call it what you will, but certain components can "mold" a sound that can be more enjoyable to some people. and less enjoyable to others.

Tube pre-amps, specific pre-amp tubes, R2R ladder DACs, cables, and speakers are all going to "mold" the sound. Some people are more sensitive to sibilance or brightness (I am one of those people) so I much prefer copper cables over silver, R2R ladder DACs over chipsets and Delta Sigma, Amperex and Mullard NOS tubes versus new production, and more laid back speakers (Buchardt Audio S400 MKII, Tannoy, Fyne Audio, vintage Infinity RS Kappa 7, Thiel, and Joseph Audio (though others may disagree there).

The sound I'm after is something I can listen to all day, provides detail without brightness, has great imaging and soundstage, is fun, and provides good immediacy without hitting me over the head with it. The journey continues

@vthokie83 +1 with your description of what you prefer (so well said) - this is extremely close to my sound preferences, but I’ve never been good at articulating. 

Audiogon Friend Request sent!!!

“Timbre, texture, tonality is what helps you get emotionally connected with your music.”
+1000 @arafiq well said! And both SS and Tube components are equally adept at delivering these qualities. The rub lies in one’s ability to identify such components and able to put them together into a system that connects you with the music at much deeper levels. 

I use a Crayon Amplifer for color, tonality, timbre and texture. 

To the canonical factors associated with music , Edgar Choueiri the genius in acoustic, added the spatial factors , which now we can use in recording DSP and -playback system with his BACCH filters...

Canonical musical factors : pitch, timbre, texture, volume/ dynamics, attack/duration/decay, melody, rhythm, and form.

Spatial factors : Reverb; Envelopment; Depth & Proximity; Spatial Extent & Resolution; Motion; Spatial Modulation; and Spatial Segregation.

This speak about the sound and the soundfield relation to be way more than just about  what audiophiles speaking about gear called "colors"...

Acoustics is the key and the road in audio not the gear which is only the vehicle and tool ....

Acoustics is the sleeping princess, your ears/brain is the kissing prince and the gear components are the 7 working dwarves...

I think that a couple of you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't suggesting that certain speakers or electronics add timbre or texture. I was saying that the best ones expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It's not an added coloration.

Very well said...

I think that a couple of you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't suggesting that certain speakers or electronics add timbre or texture. I was saying that the best ones expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It's not an added coloration.

@lalitk -- well, I do hold you partly responsible for my affliction :)

But in all seriousness, listening to your well-thought out, well-put together system was a great learning experience for me. I had listened to several systems at various dealers but yours really provided a guiding light in my quest for a better system. Some systems impress you, some pull you in with their musicality. Yours is certainly a great example of the latter.

@hilde45 I have also been told by a good friend that 6SN7 based preamps are the way to go. I'll be researching a few preamps and will definitely keep this in mind.

@mahgister 

Reaching balance is a complex problems in all working embeddings dimensions and begin with the right or wrong synergy... It is not easy to figure it out, it was not for me...

Agreed. There's no compression algorithm for experience. But to me, that is what makes this journey so enjoyable and memorable. It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration. You must peel the onion one layer at a time. Otherwise, what's the point.

@arafiq 

It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration.

Profound observation and eloquently put. This is the kind of discovery that puts the lie to gear-churning and rash upgrading. I can imagine one engaging in this hobby not with the goal of reaching "the top" but of listening to as many kinds of systems as possible. And the best part about that goal is that it is best done by exchanges with others -- meeting people, talking, listening, developing a vocabulary which reaches across rooms and ears and tastes. It's really what makes this a "hobby" and not just a consumeristic merry-go-around. Of course, the influencer industry on YouTube (and magazines, etc.) finds such a method anathema to their business, but that puts their opinions into proper perspective for the rest of us.

I concur with your observation...

Because our own taste are grounded in our ears/brain neurological specifics among other factors and this is adressed in psycho-acoustics...

Then it is not only about the gear synergy and embeddings for sure...Our tastes reflect our history and neuro-biology of hearing ...

It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration.

I find it interesting that there is scant reference in the OP and most responses to the simple fact that the sound of live music has a tremendous amount of color, naturally. So, when we talk about adding “color” should we not ask the question “compared, or relative to what”?

The terms “accurate” and “neutral” are often misused, imo. Those descriptions don’t (shouldn’t) represent any particular sonic qualities. Unfortunately, the terms are often used to mean a lean, sterile and what I like to call a “bleached out”, or “gray”  tonal quality. A tonal quality devoid of color. That is not the natural sound of music.

@roxy54 has it right. Systems that are tonally accurate, or neutral,

**** (the best ones) expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It’s not an added coloration.****

Now, if by “adding color” we are talking about adding some pervasive tonal quality to the tonal character of one’s system through equipment choices, I suppose that this is a personal choice that one can’t argue with, but keep in mind that this will cause all recordings to have a certain tonal sameness. Not my cup of tea.

Indica LOL

@frogman

+1 I think you put your finger on it. I looked at this for a while and kept thinking… but…. but.
 

Most good high fi companies try to make their products sound like the real thing. I suspect those that use simple electronic measurement fail miserably. It’s great if you can parrot a sine wave… but real music is all frequencies and amplitudes being simultaneously varied.

All the great designers use engineering principles as a starting place, then listen. Ruler flat speakers sound terrible. I have heard this from speaker designers and reviewers. I don’t look at many specs. I read about or listen myself.

Different engineers approach getting to the best most natural sound from different directions… different designs, technology, materials to arrive at their best… and they arrive in slightly different places. Hence, you get different flavors.

frogman is right. How have you been ?

I would add that take two great guitars and they may sound very very different, though both will have full color. Yeah, a matter of taste and of the kind of music you play. Flamenco guitar, classical guitar, blues guitar, country guitar.

I’ve been well, @inna .  Thank you.  It’s been an extraordinarily busy time, so not posting as much as usual,  Hope all is well with you,  

It is. Last time I remember we argued about Sonny Rollins. I don't see Orpheus10 participate in Jazz thread.

@frogman Respectfully, I may have said it first at the top of the thread. 😉

I hate when a system adds a color. It permeates all music played through that system. My goal has been to remove all color so as to achieve tonal neutrality and transparency to what is on the recording.

@cdc could you explain more about the speakers that are colorful but not colored?  Not trying to be snarky, just want to understand this

Gotta love a conversation about sound  that’s talking about color.   Aren’t those two different senses?  Go figure!  Only audiophiles……
 

Let’s talk about touch sometime. Nothing like a nice bass punch. We do feel bass more than hear it. That’s a fact! Now let me try and hear some color in my sound. Only technicolor will do. Not to mention a soundstage in CinemaScope. Yee ha!