Nothing snarky about asking something. I am sure many people will take exception with my opinion but carrying on. . .
Technically, a 10" driver makes a lousy midrange. It has bad dispersion and moves too slow. So it does more of the musical generalities than extraction minute details = colorful. Paper drivers have more of a colorful presentation than metal as do tubes but that doesn’t necessary mean they are colored any more than one type of violin sounds different from another. Coloration would be some type of distortion, resonance, etc.
@mapman
It’s true and is called synesthesia.
|
For a bit of tube flavor you might want to audition the Modwright analog bridge. It add a bit of melo-ness and the bridge allows for a number of tubes that can be interchanged -tube rolling really does add another whole level of insanity to this hobby. I have used the bridge with a pair of 1961 gold pin PG amperex 7308 tubes along with a Sophie rectifier tube and I believe it has improved the listenability of my system considerably.
|
@mapman we talk about color all the time in the recording business as well. Anything that changes the sound from what came before is considered "coloring the sound" . Some colors are desirable, some not. It is also true @mahgister that studio monitors are used to reveal information, reveal color, reveal mistakes, etc so the mixer or mastering person can work from a place of truth instead of illusion. This is the basic reason low distortion loudspeakers are important in studio work. The dont make things sound better than they are.
Brad
|
Best gear in the world along with the best room in the world are useless if the recording was not done right. Don't exaggerate the importance of listening room. The room must be alive, that's for sure, the rest is relatively minor.
"It's the source stupid".
|
Totally and absolutely correct. Remove the color of the system to hear to actual colors of the music. @mahgister
"colour" as qualitative word associated with the gear component is one thing...
"colour" as a qualitative concept in acoustic and psycho-acoustic associated with TIMBRE is ANOTHER thing...
|
I know if I like it when I hear it. Could be colored, but my preference is not.
|
"colour" as qualitative word associated with the gear component is one thing...
"colour" as a qualitative concept in acoustic and psycho-acoustic associated with TIMBRE is ANOTHER thing...
I cannot be clearer and shorter...
Confusing the two muddle the problem...
Gear colours as with dac that are of different type or with amplifiers S.S. or tubes is a synergy and design qualitative coupling problem...
"Colour" as with tonal colour associated with TIMBRE experience is the main problem in audio with the spatial aspects of sound independently and this independently of the price tag of your system .....
No recording reproduce a perfect experience of timbre only a specific one in specific recorded location of the musician in the room and with some microphone location and typ; our room acoustic translate this imperfect recording of timbre and the spatial recorded information cues into our own room acoustic ...( Speakers crosstalk muddle this information about timbre and location and other spatial acoustic concepts )
The best gear in the world in a very bad room will be less desirable than less costly gear in an optimal room... This is a fact not my opinion...
|
There is another point. Microphones do not 'hear' everything and so part of the real sound being recorded will be missed. Let's call it negative coloration. You might try to at least partly restore those lost in recording elements, without adding elements that were never there. This is a formidable task bordering on utopia. But we can try.
|
I have already mentioned that perhaps the usage of the term ’color’ was not very apt to describe what I was trying to say. I see folks are still hung up on that word :)
The point was that some people want neutrality at all cost. Some are okay with morphing the sound just little bit, similar to how you can season your food without altering the basic essence of the dish. Why get so dogmatic about it?
I know people who reject tube amplification as a form of ’polluting’ the sound. The tube euphonics, in their mind, are an added coloration. They hate tone controls, and look down upon folks who buy amps with tone controls. These people often have telepathic abilities to know exactly what the artist had in mind when recording the song in 1967. I readily admit that I have no idea what the artist had in mind. I listen to enjoy and connect with music in a way that pleases me. I like what tubes bring to the table. I like what some of the very best SS amps bring to the table. I like to swap cables to try out a different ’flavor’ of sound every now and then.
Different strokes for different folks.
|
@noromance Wrote:
I hate when a system adds a color. It permeates all music played through that system. My goal has been to remove all color so as to achieve tonal neutrality and transparency to what is on the recording.
I agree 100%!
Mike
|
I’d wager Mr Spock would call this topic “illogical”.
Then Dr McCoy would bawl him out and Kirk would give a speech about being human. This would be an episode called “The Color of Sound” where a strange alien probe makes the crew have mind wiping psychedelic dreams whenever a certain tune plays. Then they take over the Enterprise and only Spock can save them thanks to his unwillingness to see color from sound. Great episode! Make it so!
|
Don’t mind me. I get it it but just find the topic amusing. Carry on.
|
|
"Gotta love a conversation about sound that’s talking about color. Aren’t those two different senses? Go figure! Only audiophiles……"
Yes, but we don't have agreed on terms to describe these things, so we make them up. Would it make more sense to talk about the ratio of even vs odd harmonics? How would you decide your preference? Who would understand that? How about moving the image fore and aft with 1/4 dB equalization changes? Color. Warm, clinical, musical, natural? Our feeble attempt to describe something we are not sure how to measure. Then we get into even harder things like dynamic compression which happens in all speakers and in some electronics. Is that "life" or is 1/2 dB @ 4K life? Or is that "flavor"
|
Now if we want a better TRANSLATION of the specific acoustic trade-off conditions in some specific music recording, we must create a room able to optimally make possible this translation , nevermind the relative qualitative variability of the gear components ... It is acoustics domain i spoke about ...
The gear pieces are more or less optimal for each one of us to convey this recording trade off choices as an analog/digital information processed line for sure, gear matter for sure , but they will not beat the room conditions for this acoustic TRANSLATION from the living recording Hall or studio into the acoustic conditions of your room...Acoustic room conditions change impact way more than a dac change in most case..
TIMBRE is first and last an acoustic concept nor a gear engineeering concept...
Then buying a tube pre-amp to improve "colors" or "balance" between components is notenough for solving the acoustic problem about tonal color perception from recording playback in YOUR ROOM for your ears... Buying a tube pre-amp is only good to improve the performance of your system but in the SAME room acoustic condition...Upgrading may be not always the solution...Acoustics rules nevermind the level and price of your system...This does not means that acoustic improvement will compensate for bad gear design , it means that gear design will NEVER replace acoustics defects ..
|
The acoustic definition of " color" is related to the definition of timbre experience which can be understood and must be understood in psycho-acoustic by at least 5 physical acoustic criteria which are influenced by simultaneously the room speakers relation and the gear components characteristics and also by psychological evaluative perception ( the state of emotions and the individual music journey ) ...
It is a complex matter pertaining not just to gear design quality but also to physical room acoustics in specific relation to specfic gear system design and to the psycho-acoustic conditions linked to timbre experience and evaluation which imply subjectivity and neurology...
In a sense the question of the OP is a road to misunderstanding by underestimating the complexities of the timbre experience, with the implicit presupposition that the gear will be the main factor...
The better question will be : how do we improve timbre experience ?
For sure i could understand this question as a question not about fundamental acoustics but about the gear pieces...This is not wrong to ask this question about the synergy of gear pieces in one direction : warm, cold , neutral...My claim is that this question about gear colors is not meaningless no , but it is misleading question which stay on the problem surface ...
|
@mapman Why post just to mock the thread? Some of us enjoy nitpicking Audiophile jargon. Several of you have expanded on my previous post with very interesting commentary. IMO some also confuse engagement with coloration. A speaker that perfectly describes that as a myth is the Totem Metal V2 The Totem is nearly colorless(no sound of its own) but completely engages you without any color saturation.
|
@noromance , you did indeed, Somehow, I missed your post. Unusual, since your posts always interest me, Credit where credit is due. Regards.
|
Let’s talk about touch sometime. Nothing like a nice bass punch. We do feel bass more than hear it. That’s a fact! Now let me try and hear some color in my sound. Only technicolor will do. Not to mention a soundstage in CinemaScope. Yee ha!
|
Gotta love a conversation about sound that’s talking about color. Aren’t those two different senses? Go figure! Only audiophiles……
|
@cdc could you explain more about the speakers that are colorful but not colored? Not trying to be snarky, just want to understand this
|
@frogman Respectfully, I may have said it first at the top of the thread. 😉
I hate when a system adds a color. It permeates all music played through that system. My goal has been to remove all color so as to achieve tonal neutrality and transparency to what is on the recording.
|
It is. Last time I remember we argued about Sonny Rollins. I don't see Orpheus10 participate in Jazz thread.
|
I’ve been well, @inna . Thank you. It’s been an extraordinarily busy time, so not posting as much as usual, Hope all is well with you,
|
frogman is right. How have you been ?
I would add that take two great guitars and they may sound very very different, though both will have full color. Yeah, a matter of taste and of the kind of music you play. Flamenco guitar, classical guitar, blues guitar, country guitar.
|
@frogman
+1 I think you put your finger on it. I looked at this for a while and kept thinking… but…. but.
Most good high fi companies try to make their products sound like the real thing. I suspect those that use simple electronic measurement fail miserably. It’s great if you can parrot a sine wave… but real music is all frequencies and amplitudes being simultaneously varied.
All the great designers use engineering principles as a starting place, then listen. Ruler flat speakers sound terrible. I have heard this from speaker designers and reviewers. I don’t look at many specs. I read about or listen myself.
Different engineers approach getting to the best most natural sound from different directions… different designs, technology, materials to arrive at their best… and they arrive in slightly different places. Hence, you get different flavors.
|
|
I find it interesting that there is scant reference in the OP and most responses to the simple fact that the sound of live music has a tremendous amount of color, naturally. So, when we talk about adding “color” should we not ask the question “compared, or relative to what”?
The terms “accurate” and “neutral” are often misused, imo. Those descriptions don’t (shouldn’t) represent any particular sonic qualities. Unfortunately, the terms are often used to mean a lean, sterile and what I like to call a “bleached out”, or “gray” tonal quality. A tonal quality devoid of color. That is not the natural sound of music.
@roxy54 has it right. Systems that are tonally accurate, or neutral,
**** (the best ones) expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It’s not an added coloration.****
Now, if by “adding color” we are talking about adding some pervasive tonal quality to the tonal character of one’s system through equipment choices, I suppose that this is a personal choice that one can’t argue with, but keep in mind that this will cause all recordings to have a certain tonal sameness. Not my cup of tea.
|
I concur with your observation...
Because our own taste are grounded in our ears/brain neurological specifics among other factors and this is adressed in psycho-acoustics...
Then it is not only about the gear synergy and embeddings for sure...Our tastes reflect our history and neuro-biology of hearing ...
It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration.
|
@arafiq
It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration.
Profound observation and eloquently put. This is the kind of discovery that puts the lie to gear-churning and rash upgrading. I can imagine one engaging in this hobby not with the goal of reaching "the top" but of listening to as many kinds of systems as possible. And the best part about that goal is that it is best done by exchanges with others -- meeting people, talking, listening, developing a vocabulary which reaches across rooms and ears and tastes. It's really what makes this a "hobby" and not just a consumeristic merry-go-around. Of course, the influencer industry on YouTube (and magazines, etc.) finds such a method anathema to their business, but that puts their opinions into proper perspective for the rest of us.
|
@mahgister
Reaching balance is a complex problems in all working embeddings dimensions and begin with the right or wrong synergy... It is not easy to figure it out, it was not for me...
Agreed. There's no compression algorithm for experience. But to me, that is what makes this journey so enjoyable and memorable. It's an evolutionary process ... not just in terms of how your equipment choices evolve, but also how you gradually learn what type of sound appeals to you the most. Honestly, when I started I had no clue what I liked. So it's not always about the synergy but also an exercise in self-exploration. You must peel the onion one layer at a time. Otherwise, what's the point.
|
@hilde45 I have also been told by a good friend that 6SN7 based preamps are the way to go. I'll be researching a few preamps and will definitely keep this in mind.
|
@lalitk -- well, I do hold you partly responsible for my affliction :)
But in all seriousness, listening to your well-thought out, well-put together system was a great learning experience for me. I had listened to several systems at various dealers but yours really provided a guiding light in my quest for a better system. Some systems impress you, some pull you in with their musicality. Yours is certainly a great example of the latter.
|
Very well said...
I think that a couple of you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't suggesting that certain speakers or electronics add timbre or texture. I was saying that the best ones expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It's not an added coloration.
|
I think that a couple of you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't suggesting that certain speakers or electronics add timbre or texture. I was saying that the best ones expose the timbre and texture that actually exists in the recording. It's not an added coloration.
|
To the canonical factors associated with music , Edgar Choueiri the genius in acoustic, added the spatial factors , which now we can use in recording DSP and -playback system with his BACCH filters...
Canonical musical factors : pitch, timbre, texture, volume/ dynamics, attack/duration/decay, melody, rhythm, and form.
Spatial factors : Reverb; Envelopment; Depth & Proximity; Spatial Extent & Resolution; Motion; Spatial Modulation; and Spatial Segregation.
This speak about the sound and the soundfield relation to be way more than just about what audiophiles speaking about gear called "colors"...
Acoustics is the key and the road in audio not the gear which is only the vehicle and tool ....
Acoustics is the sleeping princess, your ears/brain is the kissing prince and the gear components are the 7 working dwarves...
|
I use a Crayon Amplifer for color, tonality, timbre and texture.
|
“Timbre, texture, tonality is what helps you get emotionally connected with your music.”
+1000 @arafiq well said! And both SS and Tube components are equally adept at delivering these qualities. The rub lies in one’s ability to identify such components and able to put them together into a system that connects you with the music at much deeper levels.
|
@vthokie83 +1 with your description of what you prefer (so well said) - this is extremely close to my sound preferences, but I’ve never been good at articulating.
Audiogon Friend Request sent!!!
|
Call it what you will, but certain components can "mold" a sound that can be more enjoyable to some people. and less enjoyable to others.
Tube pre-amps, specific pre-amp tubes, R2R ladder DACs, cables, and speakers are all going to "mold" the sound. Some people are more sensitive to sibilance or brightness (I am one of those people) so I much prefer copper cables over silver, R2R ladder DACs over chipsets and Delta Sigma, Amperex and Mullard NOS tubes versus new production, and more laid back speakers (Buchardt Audio S400 MKII, Tannoy, Fyne Audio, vintage Infinity RS Kappa 7, Thiel, and Joseph Audio (though others may disagree there).
The sound I'm after is something I can listen to all day, provides detail without brightness, has great imaging and soundstage, is fun, and provides good immediacy without hitting me over the head with it. The journey continues
|
@arafiq Thanks for a nice thread. Enjoying it!
For now, I’m thinking of trying a tube preamp with my SS amp.
I really enjoy going back and forth from non-tube to tube preamp with my Pass XA-25. At first I enjoyed a preamp with an 12AT7 tube input (2 tubes). But once I tried a 6SN7 tube, I sold my first preamp without any regrets. If there's a good match between preamp and amp, you may hear what I did: a really inviting, smooth, more spacious soundstage and a midrange that really draws you in. Seductive is the word. Of course, there are many differences between systems, but those who love the 6SN7 used these types of descriptions and I found them apropos even in my room, with my speakers, etc.
|
@roxy54
I think that speakers or electronics that portray timbre and texture well are perceived by the mind as "colorful."
Well said! It took me many years and lots of changes to reach the same conclusion. Like everyone else, I was more into 'detail' early on in my journey. But that, as impressive at it is, gets boring after a while. Timbre, texture, tonality is what helps you get emotionally connected with your music.
|
In hindsight, perhaps the choice of the term ’color’ was a wrong one to start with. The term might imply some sort of artificial sweetness or making the sound unnatural. That was not what I was aiming for. I started to write my response but then I read @hilde45 ’s last message. He pretty much summed up my thoughts, albeit, in a vastly eloquent manner :) I wholeheartedly agree with everything he said.
My intent was to discuss how to shape the sound signature to something you enjoy but without taking away from the intrinsic nature of the original recording. This does not imply bad synergy or other weaknesses in the chain. I’m sure this is not a novel idea. There’s a reason many audiophiles combine SS amps with tube preamps. or use a hybrid amp, and are happy with the results. Obviously there is more than one way to skin the cat. I never understood why some audiophiles are so dogmatic (my way is the only right way) about these things. Relax, it’s a hobby that’s supposed to make you happy -- whichever path you choose to take.
Early on in my audio journey, I too was enamored by tweaking the sound by introducing a tube dac in the chain. I tried a couple of tube dacs but overtime I concluded that it was not always the best strategy, at least for me. Nowadays, I prefer my DAC to pass on the information as accurately as possible without altering the signal. But that’s just my preference. I’m sure there are many on this forum who are digging the sound of a tube dac as we speak. That being said, I never tried higher end tube dacs from, say, Lampizator’s upper models. I might try this route in the future.
For now, I’m thinking of trying a tube preamp with my SS amp. I want to point out that I’m perfectly happy, in fact more than happy, with how my system sounds right now. It has all the tonality, texture, presence, etc. that I had always desired. So the urge to try a tube preamp is purely an experiment in the realm of ’what-if’. Just to push the envelope a bit more. It might not work out in the end. I guess there’s only one way to find out.
|
i prefer the boobs of Marianne on Napoleon...
😊
|
Paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa?
|
Equalizer mechanical or electronic one are tools not the solution... i used the two types ...
As building a house ask for many tools used in some balance way and in some order, you must use many tools and tweaks to reach a specific balance ratio for each system/room which will not be nor colored nor neutral but will display his specific "hue" ...
Synergy between components is the first factor, to create an ideal balance ask for more work and for some tools and embeddings controls ...
if we dont have synergy to begin with the rest of work will not be easy and inj many cases even doable...No amount of equalization will replace synergy in many cases or a component which pair not well with another one...
if you dac is too harsh coupling it with an analytical amplifier sound will not result in an optimal balance even if equalization will decrease the harshness or the fatigue a bit...And if the room is to echoing or not set for this case it will be more disastrous..
Reaching balance is a complex problems in all working embeddings dimensions and begin with the right or wrong synergy... It is not easy to figure it out, it was not for me...
|
For home audio, you can add an equalizer and use it on or off and get any color you want for a lot less hustle.
|
The problem is not the lack or the excess of colors...
It is only a symptom or a manifestation of unbalanced components synergy or the presence of a too harsh and bright component or of a too warm one...
The debate between colors and neutral is a red herring from the real problem which is synergy between components and acoustic embeddings.
I think this is exactly right. The word "color" is not helpful.
The question really is: "What are the ways to get my system to please my taste?"
If one answers with,
"I want to get back to the original recording’s intention" -- then:
(a) Do you want to sound like it did on their studio’s monitors (which were used to mix the recording)? Even if all recordings used the same monitors (and electronics), you’d be unable to do this for all the recordings you listened to.
(b) Do you want to capture the engineers’ intention? How would you know what that was? Which system did they intend it for? This would be impossible to determine and, again, varying from recording to recording.
(c) Ok, well maybe it’s a classical or live recording. You want to "hear the room." Ok, well where in the room do you want to be sitting? And what about your room’s acoustics? Maybe headphones are the answer, then.
If all these questions sound impossible to answer, then the above quotation is what you seek -- you want to try to please your own taste using room acoustics plus whatever else factors in. But let’s not talk about "getting back to the original recording" because that is a Fountain of Youth type of fantasy.
All this in mind, some equipment really does add additional harmonics and some room treatments do really muffle or over-exaggerate certain elements of the acoustics. If you like that -- fine. But if you don't, it's a question of knowing which levers to play with to reach your satisfaction or pleasure. It's not about what's "really" there.
|
....tweak the eq a tad, punch a detail up or down.....’razor werk’, adjust the sub....
The ’color’ should already be there, lacking a little ’nuance’...;)
Otherwise....why are you listening to it? ;)
|
Two things stand out in this conversation...tubes can be removing information (where do they put it? In cheap capacitors?), and sequencers can add color. Sequencers? In my experience while living in the actual world it seems tubes can get more detail out of a signal which may seem like "color" although it could (if tubes are pushed or old) simply be pleasant distortion...and sequencers allow synthesized sounds to be repeated, which isn’t "color" unless you have a very short attention span and need things to be repeated...or you’re recording your magnum opus like Wendy Carlos...or you don’t know what a sequencer is.
|
