High end speakers at low volume

High efficiency speakers is where it’s at for your situation. $7000 Tannoy Stirling if she’ll let you have ’em 50cm from wall.

Tannoy Stirling III  LZ Special Edition

- 93 db    
- classic look     
- Tannoy and Accuphase :  +++      
- 12500$      
-  tone adjustment 

Tannoy or good horn speakers. 

I would recommend looking at stand mounted speakers. Like the Sonus Faber Electra Amator 3. They are gorgeous… there are a number of different models that fit your bill… and all beautiful.

Being stand mounted they will not be as imposing looking and will throw a fantastic sound stage. Speakers like this can really bring down the required need for volume.

Also, the need for volume is not just the speakers. It is everything. I would start by auditioning some SF speakers. I would not get hung up on the exact model… they have a house sound. One that really turned my head the first time I heard it, and after my first set, I became very loyal. I have the Amati Traditional full sized and typically listen to them in the mid seventy db… even though there is nothing to stop me from cranking them to the 90’s.

Thanks all. It seems there are several people in here not believing in the high efficiency as a solution for better SQ at low volume, rather giving importance to tone control to enhance those frequencies not well audible at low volume. I’ve read a couple of old threads. I’m not un technically prepared to judge myself unless trying. 
 

anyway speaking of high efficiency the Zu Soul Supreme speakers look quite gorgeous .

https://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-audio-soul-supreme-loudspeaker

These are fresh out of the gates.  Decware makes wonderful music. 

https://www.decwareproducts.com/dfh?utm_campaign=3ad2e5d7-342d-4f32-bb22-733502a88530&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=d0a10005-1afc-47bb-af77-0ca0edfd69ec

You need a dynamic speaker to sound good at low volume. I have only heard the Sabrina on your list. It is ok but low efficacy and probably nothing special at low volume. It was fine when I demoed it but I probably ran it around 90db for the demo. I am a Wilson fan but always passed at each price point. 
 

Honestly a good horn goes a long way at low volume. Big drivers and high efficiency that move a lot of air with little driver movement are the way I would go. 
 

After buying the JBL 4367 I am probably never going back to standard box speaker. They sound so much more real/live due to better dynamics. I mean a lot better dynamics and you don’t really give up anything to get it. they can go from warm to bright with their built in adjustments too. You might even get away with the 4349. There is a good deal on a pair of 4349s on audio mart right now. 

High efficiency does not equal sounds good at low volumes. Tone controls definitely not part of the equation. You want as pure and high quality signal as possible to excellent sounding speakers. The lower the noise floor of the system the less volume reqired. Putting tone controls in the equation raises the noise floor.

@james633 Wrote:

You need a dynamic speaker to sound good at low volume.

Honestly a good horn goes a long way at low volume. Big drivers and high efficiency that move a lot of air with little driver movement are the way I would go.

Agreed!

Mike

You (anyone) need Loudness Compensation at LOW volume listening.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fletcher+munson+equal+loudness+contours&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS1042US1042&oq=fletcher+munson&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j0i512l9.11011j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

We expect our systems to be frequency balanced at NORMAL or LOUD listening levels. true for any speaker, any type, any efficiency.

Due to Fletcher Munson's documented human listening curve, at LOW listening levels, both bass and highs are perceived diminished by our ears. Thus for low volume listening we need more bass and need more highs to get back to frequency balance. We do not want this 'boost' at normal volume listening.

i.e. Jazz, Bass Player, awesome at normal volume, frequency balanced. When played at low volume, even though the speaker is still frequency balanced, our hearing is not, thus the bass will need to be boosted to maintain it's proper presence in the performance (re-creating frequency balance at/to our ears).

The 'loudness' circuit is designed to alter/thus restore frequency balance at low volume listening (should have been called 'Low Volume Compensation' LVC, something sensible).

Most Vintage Preamps/Receivers had 'Loudness' controls, to be engaged when needed for low volume listening.

Many new or recent preamps lack LOUDNESS option, thus the speakers continue to produce frequency balanced sound at low volume listening, exactly when our ears need more volume of bass frequencies, i.e. unbalanced frequency dispersion to human's unbalanced hearing characteristics at low volume.

Situation:

Florida Condo  ground unit – walls ceiling poured concrete  - neighbors sides and above virtually deaf – how fortunate – none the less,  I can blast and no one hears because of construction.

I like (not loud music) unless wanting a full organ.

Low volume is superior – BUT am using a set of Magneplan inner and outside a set of ProAc towers tuned using a tube amp driven for low volume via a Pioneer SS ancient recapped Spec1 pre amp (rather than my tube preamp) with matching Pioneer crossover and equalizer units,  separate low end isolation feed for the sub,  am able to adjust sound to my personal liking that is both rich in base and superb in the middle and high range.   Not likely possible without tinkering with the crossover and equalizer.  Perhaps a kluge solution but works for me. 

T.

PS still tinkering with my additional 1980’s Enigma sub woofer – the four 15 inch drivers  are being inspected having recently recapped and restored the Hafler 909 amp and crossover.   More on that as we progress --  I miss my tie fluttering behind me in the sonic wave sitting in front of the 4x4 foot dipole.

Ricco275

You must listen to the Magico A5's before you make a decision.

I own a pair and most of my listening is at low volume, no sub necessary.

"I am looking for speakers sounding musical, with wide soundstage, not cold, detailed yet not analytical."

I would go with single driver speakers and a tube amp. You'll get the widest soundstage and a very musical sound. A warm british A/B amp will also do the trick if tubes are too much of a hassle. Single drivers just excel at soundstage, vocals and string instruments. 

I'm rocking the Closer Acoustics OGY. But your budget allows for the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius if you want towers. I mean the other speakers mentioned have a very "Hi-Fi, look at me!" look with brute proportions. These speakers come in wood finishes (or even silky smooth corian) and are skinny. So they don't draw much attention. 

@kokakolia lovely speakers! Don’t know exactly the pros and cons of the single driver speakers. Mind you I listen to rock music too.

+1 @ghdprentice My Harbeths are 86db efficient and they sound great at low volume!

Don't forget the latest Quad ESL's! They excel at low-level listening! Once heard they make quite an impression for sheer naturalness!

Right now I’m enjoying listening to Chopin’s Nocturne, Op 32: Number 2 in A-Flat Major at about 60db through my Klipsch Cornwalls. Beautiful. It’s all a matter of how quite the house is. 

I’m no expert at all since I’m looking for my first pair of speakers myself. But I’ve come across the Zu Audio, as you mentioned, and the Buchardt, both of which are high efficiency that supposedly play well at low levels. The Buchardt even have built in compensation for low level accuracy. 

Back in the day receivers normally had a “Loudness” button for boosting the bass at low listening levels. Don’t see that much anymore but it worked. At very low levels speakers with limited bass output to begin with will not sound very good. At these levels I think my Cornwalls with the huge 15” woofer sound much nicer than my little Spendor 4/5’s do. 

I have a similar situation to what you described, especially for the need to mostly listen at low volumes.  After a lot of trial and error (including several Klipsch models and Zu Dirty Weekends), I finally tried Wilson.  Used the Tune Tots for a while and then stepped up to Sabrina X.   For me, the Sabrina X’s offered the best overall low volume experience. (As an added plus, they are a blast when you can crank them up a bit 😁).

My lesson learned is that an extended live audition is absolutely worth the hassle despite it being hard sometimes to find a way to hear all the options you want to consider.  Best of luck to you in your pursuits!

@jackjohnson316 thanks I’ll check the Buchardt. Problem with Zu is that there’s no dealer in Europe and I should buy them without listening. Also I didn’t understand if working well with classic rock music.

@pscar glad to hear your feedback. First one to consider Sabrina X good at low volume perhaps !

@ricco275  

Pros:

- Point source (soundstage/imaging)

- Coherency. You're not forcing multiple drivers to work with eachother

- No Crossover. Crossovers smear the sound, so you lose a noticeable amount of detail in the crossover region. It's not something you can measure with certainty on a graph. It usually shows up as a slight dip.

- Clear midrange/treble

- Bass speed (if transmission line is used)

- Efficiency

Cons:

- Stigma. The "science people" are convinced that single driver speakers are inferior. Because dogma.

- Not as loud as 2 or 3 way speakers. You typically use single drivers at moderate/low volumes. There's definitely an ideal volume for this design, and it's not party music loud. 

- Beaming of high frequencies at loud volumes. A phase plug helps with that. Better drivers help with that. 

- Most single driver speakers with cheap drivers have uneven frequency response with for example no bass and/or shouty midrange. So at the budget level you're better off using cheap drivers and a crossover. Some single driver speakers have filters to fix this issue. Good fullrange drivers are few and far between. EMS and Cube Audio are good examples. And speaker designers love to tune the sound with transmission line cabinets. 

- It's harder to get room filling bass with a single driver. You can go with a larger driver (21cm) with a whizzer cone. But you'll compromise on treble and imaging. You can go with a smaller driver (4 inch) and get amazing midrange/treble/imaging at the expense of bass. Again, some unconventional speaker designers achieve bass with small drivers through specially tuned "active" cabinets which resonate like a musical instrument. Or use a sub. 

- Resale value suffers because of the stigma. It's not like you're buying a Sonus Faber, Wilson Audio or Focal speaker which flies off of the shelves. 

I will say that the OGY works beautifully with Classic Rock, Blues and Jazz. Because guitars and vocals sound so natural. You'll just want more rumble with heavy metal music (a sub helps a lot with that, but you might enjoy a Buchardt S400 more without the sub). 

If you're in Europe, then the best speaker I heard for the money is the Audax AM21 assembled speaker from La Maison du Haut Parleur. They do it all! I just got the OGY instead because I have a smaller room. 

I think one of the biggest limiting factors for you is how close the speakers have to be to the wall, 25cm is not far. Most speakers. Need a meter or so to breathe properly and make good bass. I see the Vandersteen treo is on your list. I'd recommend you try and find a used or demo pair of quatros. They have a subwoofer built in with a bass management system that you can tune to your room. This means you can get the speakers really close to the wall and still achieve good bass which is often what is missing in lower volume listening. I have a pair and I listen around 65db most of the time. They image incredibly well, are true to the music, and my wife likes the way they look. Check em out. 

Klipsch Heratige, Forte, Cornwall or LaScala depending on your room, could even look at Khorn. I have Fote III and a low 10 watt SET KT88 Inspire amp, plenty of detail, spooky good stereo sound stage and dynamics at low volume.

Leak 130 and a pair of Wharfedale Heritage Lintons or  Mission 770s. My job here is done LOL

I can’t imagine rock music sounds good at low volume but maybe it can with horns. I suggest giving Rockport speakers an audition. Used Atria might be in your budget. Good luck! 

IME every recording has a “correct” volume where all sounds as it should. I have, over the years, thought about writing the number down on the inner sleeve so I can just dial it up after dropping the needle—no need to figure it out every time I play the recording. Unfortunately, my system has shared the main living space as long as I’ve been married with child so most of my listening is done at levels below the preferred volume. I have found, however, that high efficiency helps. I get more jump factor at low volume than with less efficient designs at the same listening level. It just seems to me that the speakers take less juice to wake them up than with a lower efficiency design. I am talking marginally more alive and real sounding not night and day. For the most part regardless of speaker you really need to turn it up to the “correct” level for each recording.

Many single-driver, high efficiency systems and horn-based systems do excel at low volume liveliness.  But, many have a “peaky” or rough sound, so there are tradeoff you have to work around (meaning you should hear them first).  
 

For example, Zu speakers sound extraordinarily dynamic, with a very sharp attack, but they sound brittle and unpleasant to me after listening for more than a few minutes.  Classic Klipsch speakers are also a bit rough, but only a bit, and they may work.

One of my favorite speakers is the Charney Companion.  It is a single driver, high efficiency system that is smooth and natural sounding with very good dynamics.  It is a little outside of your price range and I would bet it is impossible to audition in Europe.  Charney does have less costly models which I have not heard.

To me, the best bet would be Audio Note speakers.  The are relatively compact and are meant to be place near the corners of the room or a back wall.  These speakers sound full and rich and lively at modest volume levels.

I have similar limitations, though perhaps worse needing to place my speakers hard in corners. Had SF electa amator IIIs in that position for a while, but they were compromised like that. Sounded great, but sound much better now moved to my kitchen system where they can breath. I ultimately chose Charney Maestros which are designed for corner placement. The Maestro X is larger and designed for placement against the front wall. 

I only live a couple hours from Brian Charney and was able to demo the speakers, which had me spec'ing a pair to work with the decor of my room (they are made to order) that week. Also had him build a 300b amp for me, though I switch to a First Watt M2 for the summer. Given the super high sensitivity of the speakers, 8 watts sounds great at low volume, and can play way louder than my ears could take. 

As mentioned above, I am sure they are impossible to audition, but Brian Charney uses Voxativ and AER drivers, and it may be possible to audition their speakers to see if that approach to single driver speakers suites your taste.

Seems like A high sensitivity speaker would be in order in your case. Check out Volti Audio Razz ( quite good/ true 93db/ around $6K) / Stereophile recommend ) or Rival ( very good/ true 98db/ around $15K). Both are very dynamic, sound great at any volume & have nicely finished cabinets w/ a large array of finish options. They’re sold direct so an audio show or a visit to Volti in TN are the only options to audition them.  

I use Reference 3A de Capos 92db eff with a 4 watt Decware amp.  listen at low volumes and the sound is rich.  stand mounts and if you get the i model it has nice wood finish

A couple of REL subwoofers, connected via high level input, would accomplish exactly what your wanting to hear. They bring out the best / fullness of your system without the need for volume.  

I use horns with a coaxial midrange and dual 21-inch woofers preside in my office system. It's on many hours a day. At times I use it for moves or gaming. Its an amazing-sounding loudspeaker and at lower levels is articulate dynamic engaging with detailed bass. For movies, I can clearly hear spoken words even at low levels. Something conventional designs can not do.

On Buchardt’s facebook page the owner mentions that there will be update to the Model S400 MKII passive speaker sometime in the near future that will be double the current price, so around 4,200 euro a pair. Might be worth checking out. They have a generous trial period and cover shipping, taxes, and import/export costs, with a minimum return shipping fee if you don’t like them. They also have a new A10 active speaker (made in Denmark) with the Purifi woofer and solid wood cabinet. In the USA they seem to have a following and a good resale value. Sounds like I’m trying to sell them, but really I’m just trying to convince myself to try them out :)

Of the speakers on your list I have only heard the Vandersteen Treo CT’s and in my system they sounded great at low volume. Any of the Vandersteen speakers that have the CT tweeters sound good at low volume. Harbeth speakers do low volume really well also. I had Harbeth speakers ( 5’s and 40’s) before the Vandersteen’s and bought them specifically because I needed a speaker that sounded good at low volume. Good Luck!

@jackjohnson316 Audio Excellence Canada released a bunch of videos talking about the Buchardt S400. They said that the Buchardt S400 require volume to "come alive". You'll have to watch 3 videos however. And the first video isn't so positive. But that might be a room problem, I don't fully remember. 

FYI, I'm trying to sell people on the OGY so hard haha. 

@joey54 great to hear so! Unfortunately I can’t find anyone selling Vandersteen in France. 

Agree with others have said, a high sensitivity speaker would be a place to start for consistent low level listening. Have heard the Fyne Audio F1.8, and F701 standmounts and Tannoy Turnberry floor standers in a system I know well, and they were excellent at lower levels.....of course sensitivity for all 3 was over 91 db.

IF your speakers sound good without loudness compensation (any brand, any size woofer), i.e. normal amount of bass at very low volume, then they have too much bass at normal or loud volumes. i.e. that is like having the loudness circuit engaged at all volumes, a no-no.

many people like lot’s of bass, but mid bass, lower mids are ’buried’ by too much low bass.

Get thee a simple Sound Pressure Meter, tripod, set at ear height at listening position

https://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Pressure-30-130dBA-Warranty/dp/B00ECCZWWI/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1BZ6BV6ZMIG39&keywords=sound+pressure+meter&qid=1686325343&sprefix=sound+pressure+meter%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-4

next a test cd with individual tones. Note: I scanned several Stereophile Test CD’s, others, none of them have the full range of frequencies this test disc has (29).

https://www.discogs.com/release/7290000-Various-Amazing-Bytes

you will know how flat of a frequency response your speakers are producing, IN That Space, AT that location.

It’s hard to find, and expensive, I can find a used copy if interested.

+1 on Fyne

I think I’ll go with project audio Duet15 or Odeon Helix.

@ghdprentice 

High efficiency does not equal sounds good at low volumes. Tone controls definitely not part of the equation. You want as pure and high quality signal as possible to excellent sounding speakers. The lower the noise floor of the system the less volume required. Putting tone controls in the equation raises the noise floor.

+2 ^^^^^  

Good low volume detail relies on resolution and clarity along the whole chain. 😎

Another here with Harbeths, (SHL5+ XD) and they sound great at low volume.  My system has no tone or loudness controls of any kind.  SS preamp and tube power amps. YMMV

Many have been down this road.

There are a few generalizations to consider:

1 Small rooms are easier to energize at low volumes and the listening position is closer.

2 Speaker size effects low volume listening. Big speakers are generally designed for big rooms and the resultant higher volumes which translates to driver suspensions designed for high spl vs smaller drivers designed for more modest max spl. Only a few drivers have suspensions/spiders that work well over a wide range and they are expensive. Satori drivers are very good over wide volume ranges being they use those excellent German spiders.

3. Noise floor starts to be a huge issue. Big amps are generally not happiest there which is probably why the SE tube amps and FR setups are so recommended.

4 Fletcher-Munson curves  come into play and some speakers have a good voicing for non ear blasting levels but EQ can really go a long way.

I currently have 5 pairs of big speakers, Apogee Divas, Thiel CS5i's, BD Orpheans,  Pure Audio Project Quattro 15 w the AER BD-3b and Sound Labs A3's I can say that the 2 high eff setups do indeed sound better at low volumes as well as the Sound Labs but not to the extent of the PAP setup.

Wilson Audio now uses the Satori drivers with the above mentioned spiders in some of their designs and they are the ones people like at low volume. Magico has those German sourced spiders as well in several designs.

@ricco275 ​@elliottbnewcombjr is exactly right. In order for any speaker to sound decent at low volume the bass and treble need to be boosted. Older preamps had loudness compensation filters for this very reason. You can use tone controls to do this but best is to have a digital preamp you can program with your own loudness compensation curve into a preset that you can select when you are listening at low levels. At high levels you want to roll the treble off. No speaker that sounds correct at normal listening levels is going to sound correct at very low levels. You Avalons are fine. Look at the Trinnov Amethyst, The Anthem STR and the DEQX Pre 4. These are all full function digital preamps that allow you to do these special things and a lot more. 

@ghdprentice 

You have the right aswers....low level sound quality and efficiency are not related.  Sound Quality at low level is related to how low the driver distortion is and the front end quality.  ATC has very low driver distortion and sounds quite good at low level, which is a selling point most dealers comment on.   Their passives are around 1w/1m 86 to 88dB SPL.  A speaker designer can optimize his drivers and design for more bass but gives up some efficiency as a penalty.  

Brad

@mijostyn these are great info! I believe tone control is key for low volume listening and I’m sure it will be more effective with high efficiency speakers. My Avalon are alright but not great in terms of details, clarity, imaging, sound stage. They sound nice and are forgiving. That’s why with the little McIntosh MA5300 I was very happy. When plugged to a much more demanding and resolving amp like the Vitus all the limitations came out. Maybe with one of the components you mentioned I could be fine with a pair of Sabrina X, but still doubting how much details they can express at low volume. And anyway whatever we add in the chain is a possible filter or source of noise. I’m intrigued by the Anthem as I know it is quite good as an amp per se. Or the Schiit Loki max as a pure EQ.

@ricco275  You would be surprised. Once you correct the frequency response for low level listening all the details will come out. 

I am not a fan of the Loki. If price is an issue the MiniDSP SHD is the way to go. The Anthem STR Preamp is even better , the Trinnov Amethyst better still and the best is the DEQX Pre 4. These are preamps so you you would need an amp to match. Given that you like to listen at low levels I think the Pass Labs XA 25.8 would be perfect. 

I think the basic tonal quality of the speaker has a lot to o with how it might sound at a lower volume. For me, highly accurate, analytical, or 'resolving' speakers lose even more body as they are turned down. +1 Sonus Faber, Rockport, Joseph, et al.

An amp can have a lot to do with low level body and resolution. I moved from a W4S STI-1000 huge Cl D integrated to an Odyssey Audio Kismet stereo amp a month ago and the microdynamics and detail I now hear are even more than I thought possible at 65-70 dB listening when reading. It draws me in.

Finding speakers amp that sound nice at 60-70db with no equalization in the audio chain will mean that same set up will probably be unusable at real volumes. You'll have to pick if EQ is a no-no.  

So, love or hate DSP, I will say that the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 I use for room correction, and some minimal eq lowering, has made the sound of my two-channel system very audibly better. I don't think folks understand how low, flat bass (non-room-lumpy bass) can sound so stunning when controlled.

PLUS the unit has the equivalent of a loudness control for both bass and treble curves easily used on the fly. The speakers in our room, Raidho D2s sound clear as bell, and luscious at 65dB with bass that'll stun you despite how quiet it seems.

I vote at the very least for a loudness control, and at the very best, one of the high-end DEQX units that I've lusted after.  It could be tricky otherwise unless you're willing to give up the best sound at one end of the volume chart (low or not low).   Good luck. Keep asking and researching.