High end speakers at low volume

@mijostyn @musicaddict im fine investing in qualitative eq. im not convinced by components which are also preamp as they will affect the sound. As preamp I had in mind Viva and CAT or VAC as power amp. And definitely I’d like to keep my dac separated. That’s why the only option I could think of was Schiit, at least at my knowledge. And I would like some high end EQ that won’t jeopardise the whole chain with noise or other unpleasant additions.

@ricco275 , simplicity is always best. The Anthem can do way more then everything else together at far lower distortion levels. Once you are in numbers you can do almost anything you want without the added distortion analog adjustments always make. The added capacity of just the Anthem unit would bring your system to heights you can not imagine. 

@musicaddict  Painfully correct. A system that sounds fine at low levels will shriek at you at high levels. With digital signal processing you can easily have it both ways.  

@mijostyn uhm… not sure about their performance as preamp which is the most important element in the chain. What’s wrong with the Loki Max?

Some other ideas :  Stenheim Alumine 2. I've heard the larger ones and they are great. Not sure what you or your wife thinks about the looks. In person their speakers look really well made.

https://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-stenheim-alumine-2-speakers/

Oscar Parker Duo are great. I've heard them and they also looks fantastic. 

https://www.marten.se/products/parker/parker-duo/

Fyne has models that are easy to drive and should work well at lower volumes. 

@ricco275 The Loci Max is analog and will add distortion. The units I mention are full function digital processors. The DEQX and Trinnov are lightening fast with 64 bit floating point processors. As preamps they are invisible. They are going to sound like your sources. A turntable will still sound like a turntable but much better because of room correction and loudness correction. All your digital sources plug into SPDIF or AES inputs. All three units have 4 SOTA DAC channels, two for your main speakers and two for subwoofers should desire to add them. Subwoofer crossovers are included. It is important to note that unlike analog processors once you are in high speed digital you can do almost anything to the signal without adding any distortion. The signal is converted back to analog only at the very end of the signal path. All functions can be handled by remote. They will also serve as streamers. All you need is one of these processors (I am getting the DEQX) an amplifier, speakers and your sources. All three have USB Audio inputs in case you want to get into computer audio. I run a Mac Mini with a 6 TB hard drive. 

@ricco275 

You might also consider any of the Klispch Legacy line. The Forte 4 is well in your price range.

All the best.

@headphonedreams thanks I listened to the steinheim and while I liked them it wasn’t the same for my wife. Parker duo were on the list but I should travel hours to audition them. In one hour I’ll take her to see the TAD ME1 and hopefully she’ll like them. I will have someone making custom stands resembling the Parker duo stands. TAD stands are in fact far from appealing even though I imagine and hope very effective.

@curiousjim thanks the Forte and Cornwall are not really my flavour.

@mijostyn im very tempted. The only doubt is that I had some very good preamps in mind, without tone control of course.

Do you know how is the preamp section of the Anthem STR? I’ll use my external DAC. The STR is renowned to be a good amp. 

here is a list of high sensitivity speakers, if that matters

https://reference3a.com/products/reflector-monitor/
check out the reviews listed in the link

@grislybutter nice! Amongst those the Lakmé and the Parker duo are aesthetically tolerated as far as WAF is concerned.

@ricco275 

I have a lot more fields, including WAF :)

which is hard to find an algorithm for, as men has not yet figured out women 

@ricco275 , The Anthem STR is an excellent value. It is well made and offers most of the digital flexibility needed to adjust your system exactly the way you want it. When we only had analog equipment, no tone controls was the standard because analog tone control disrupt the image. This is in no way the case for digital EQ which can be used to improve the image. The STR is a full function preamp and ios very clean. It is not a tube preamp but if you want the sound of tubes get a tube phono stage or tube amplifier. The Preamp's job is to select sources, control volume and in the case of a digital preamp provide room control, bass management, DACs and EQ. The STR does this punching above it's price point. The only caveat is you have to have at least basic computer skills if you want to get into the more advanced capabilities of the STR. Most of the set up is simple.  

The die is cast. I’m writing as listening to my new TAD ME1 in titanium finish.
Now will need to evaluate if the Vitus will stay or go and then fine tune with cables.

big improvement at low volume vs Avalon Idea.

The Loki is a very inexpensive experiment, easily resold. If that works for you, think of all the money you’ll save for some other upgrade someday.

OP,

Congradulations. They look like great speakers. Bet they will sound much better as they break in. Typically I found the sound better at lower levels after breakin.

@ghdprentice wrote:

High efficiency does not equal sounds good at low volumes.

Actually, quite often it does lead to an added level of sonic involvement here (of course, whether it sounds good at lower volumes is relative to the specific implementation of the design, as with any speaker), certainly with horn-loaded speakers. Whether that’s due to how horns interact with the medium of air, the nature of them being more directive, a usually (much) larger air radiation area, less inertia build-up of the cones (= less smear), a frequent combination with SET’s, or other, I don’t know, but high efficiency horn-loaded speakers tend to be more "attentive"/more readily ignite at lower volumes vs. low eff. direct radiation speakers, and it’s not because of a low SPL-complimentary "loudness" curve. Rather it seems to be a factor of their inherent sonic nature (dictated by design principle), gear combination, and how they interact with the acoustic environment. Where low eff. direct radiating speakers excel at lower volumes I’d expect it to be for reasons more related to the frequency curve, being a point source and/or other.

Tone controls definitely not part of the equation. You want as pure and high quality signal as possible to excellent sounding speakers.

Depends on the implementation. Actively configured "tone controls" is really just a configurable crossover that’s already there by necessity, usually in the digital domain, so there’s no subtraction of "purity" here.

The lower the noise floor of the system the less volume reqired.

It certainly heightens awareness and overall hearing acuity at lower SPL’s as well as broadening the perceived dynamic range, which is a good thing.

Putting tone controls in the equation raises the noise floor.

Again, depends.

Over the decades, my modest and modestly efficient Epi 100 have never disappointed me at low volumes; they still sound as rich and clear and compelling.  Also, have never needed to use loudness control nor tone controls even. 

Lately, the Klipsch Heresy IV have provided me tremendous pleasure at low volumes... one of their strengths, in my opinion.  They remain dynamic and engaging, again without the use of loudness nor tone controls.

@phusis +1

Mike

@grislybutter 

Strange but you forgot Volti Rival at 100db - their mid level speaker of which I own and chose for it’s neutrality for a flea watt speaker.

@ricco275 

You’ve listed many great sounding speakers. But choosing which sound is better is a personal preference.  Asking us would give you our individual preferences which is no substitute for your personal preference.  I’ve went to several audio shows and stores to demo for my speaker purchase.  Magico and YG resonated with me, but Wilson speakers, of which I demoed many, didn’t rock my boat.  Best to listen for yourself as we can’t tell you what you’ll like

@kennyc 

I listed a 100 high sensitivity speakers (title: "here is a list of high sensitivity speakers". I didn't say these are all the high sensitivity speakers including what kennyc has. So, no, I did not forget anything.

OP.,,I looked at your system and you are using Accuphase A45 which is a 45w/ch Class A amplifier. In my experience, Class A amps sound their best at higher volume. They need to be pushed to open up. Soundstage width and depth usually corresponds with volume. At higher levels the stage will be larger, provided your room and components are up for it.

In my opinion you might want to consider the following:

High power Class AB amp (i.e. Gryphon, Pass, Simaudio Moon, Boulder, McIntosh)

More open and transparent sounding cables like the Nordost, Kimber KS, Transparent Audio, higher end Audience AU24sx or Front Row.

Purchasing higher sensitivity speakers may not accomplish the task here.

Also keep in mind the system that sounds great at lower volume may be too much of a good thing at higher levels. All depends on synergy

Just some food for thought.

@phusis in your opinion what’s the best tone control option?

@kennyc indeed. I have asked help to identify what in users’ opinion sound good at low volume. Then it’s my to decide if sounding good for me too : )

@audphile1 interesting about class AB. I read many swearing by class A tube amps at low volume. And Pass XA25 is also recognised as a tremendous performer at low volume due to its short signal path.

we like it or not I think EQ or tone control is the only real solution. Humans simply can’t hear well certain frequencies below a certain volume level.

Fink Borg

@ricco275 wrote:

in your opinion what’s the best tone control option?

Poster @mijostyn has proposed some options for correction in the digital domain preamps, and this would seem a sound solution in your case with the opportunities offered here.

Another way of considering "tone controls" is a more "analogue" approach, namely that of considering the acoustics in your specific environment by means of what’s in the locale itself (rather than post-effect digitally like suggested previously). A livelier environment acoustically can aid low level attentiveness; the importance of a simple thing like a rug on the floor in front of the stereo, what kind it is (a thicker rug or, say, a cow skin) and its position in front of the stereo. Moving it closer to the stereo/speakers takes away some reverberative impact, moving it further away vice versa. Also, experiment with toe-in. Move a little closer to the speakers and adjust accordingly with their positioning - this might help making the sound a bit livelier for a given volume setting.

Another aspect to consider: bass. This segment of TAS’s review of the TAD ME1 brings it into perspective:

...

However, even the finest smaller monitors ultimately run low of bass firepower at some point. Thus sub-forty-cycle bass, while perceivable to a degree, became more of a challenge as the ME1’s responsiveness and focus began to soften and waver slightly, especially at low volume levels.

You might consider adding a pair of subs. The implications of this are potentially far reaching and affects the whole frequency span - at lower SPL’s as well.

 My experience is that small speakers work better at low volume than large. I had a pair of JBL 4350's and they sounded as good as a $10 clock radio at low volume. Horn speakers are efficient and thus produce high volume but for a few exceptions are raspy in sound. Find some nice small polite speakers. 

@mijostyn I can’t find any release date for the DEQX pre4 and no price either. Do you have info about that? I’m looking at the Premate + as I don’t need active speakers treatment and my only digital component to plug in is the DAC. Is the premate + obsolete? Certainly will drop in price a lot on the second hand market once the pre4 is available to buy.

@ricco275  DEQX got stung by Covid. They were just getting ready to release the new Pre 4 and Pre 8 so they announced that the old units were discontinued (the Premate series) and then lost the supply of the very new processor they were putting in the new units. They had to redesign the Pre 4 and 8 around a new even more powerful processor and are getting ready to release the Pre 8 to a small group of us to test the Beta program. Once all the bugs are worked out they will be released to the public, I would guess about 6 months. The Pre 4, which is what you would be interested in and will be around $8000 American, the Pre 8 $10,000. They had not formally released prices yet so, these are estimates. These units are way more flexible than the other units. DEQX will set it up for you online but if you are adventurous you can connect you computer and program away. The Trinnov is idiot proof, set it and forget it and the Anthem is somewhere in between. The Anthem is the best value and I think the DEQX the highest performance overall. A lot of it is being able to make your system do exactly what you want in terms of dialing things in to your taste.

@phusis , I agree entirely, having a preamp with room control is not an excuse to avoid proper room acoustics. Room control has it's limitations. It can only boost a frequency so far before you either run out of power or hit 0 dBfs (digital clipping) Having said this, you are not going to create a loudness compensation curve via room treatment. The goal is to reverse the Fletcher-Munson curve at the volume you prefer to listen at. The curve changes with volume. The hinge point is about 1 kHz so there is significant boost by the time you get to both 500 Hz and 2 kHz. You can't do that with subwoofers. You might be able to do it with analog tone controls. In this regards a programable digital preamp is handily best. You can program curves for different volumes and load them into presets without any penalty. The only ADC you have to make is your phono stage. Everything else stays digital until the final output DACs of the preamp. Since the sub crossover and integration is handled by the preamp a 2.2 unit will have 4 DAC channels. I digitize my phono stage and do the RIAA correction digitally and am convinced it is an improvement. The difference is well within the realm of psychiatric influence so it is hard to be sure without strict rapid AB comparison and I cannot do that with one turntable and phono stage. For sure, it is not detrimental in any way.  

@mijostyn i see. I’m not going to wait 6 months. Between premate and Anthem? It seems Anthem preamp adds harshness to the sound. So Stereophile says at least

@ricco275 I am a T+A dealer and am recommending one of their speakers for this post as it fits your criteria. Look into the T+A Talis S 300 floorstander. It is not a high efficiency speaker, but it should be an excellent match with your Vitus. It is both very musical and still highly detailed. It is rated down to 25Hz despite having a small form factor, thanks to a fully machined aluminum cabinet. It plays very large for its size and images well at lower levels. The silver aluminum cabinet will likely match your Vitus and surpass your WAF criteria if you are both against black (I am!). 

I prefer this speaker to the $25K Wilson Yvette when I owned it. They are similar in tone, but I did prefer the Talis S 300 at lower listening levels, and it was more fitting for the room where the Wilson required more space than I could give it. 

The Talis was covered positively in The Absolute Sound a few years back as well, and the reviewer preferred it over the Wilson’s and Magicos in its price range. 

I have some other thoughts and will PM you direct. 

@ricco275 , let me have a look at the article and I will get back. Harshness is usually easily controlled by attenuating the area between 3 and 4 kHz just a coupld of dB.  

@ricco275 , I think you might have read the Stereophile STR integrated amplifier review. As far as I can tell Stereophile did not review the STR Preamplifier. There are many reviews of it though and most quite complementary. There are a few complaints but none of them are consistent among the reviews which usually means they don't exist. The STR is built to a price and it is not going to be as good as a $10,000 processor. The Trinnov is the other option at $11,000. It is a beautiful unit and has everything you need plus. I think it is a bit overpriced being French. I did not get one because I need more flexible bass management than it has. So, I have waited over a year for the DEQX and am still waiting but I do not think much longer.

@mijostyn it was stereophile review of both preamp and power amp and they clearly state more than once the harshness comes from the preamp. I’m tempted to get it anyway. Point is I am at the limit of the harshness in my system. Otherwise I should go for the DEQX premate +. That’s my budget limit.

ricco275, if I had your desired criteria for speakers I would definitely look at horns.  Very light diaphragms powered by strong magnet motors coupled with the minimal excursions required of diaphragms boosted by the impedance matching augmentation provided by horns make them very lively and detailed at low volumes. 

@ricco275 , I saw The Absolute Sound Article but can't seem to find the Stereophile one. None of the four or five reviews I read mentioned any harshness.

Harshness is generally an amplitude problem which can always be programmed out with a preamp like this so I would think it was something Stereophile was doing.

In reading reviews when you see a problem that is echoed by all the reviews you know it is an issue. You are way better off with the Anthem than you are with the Premate plus. With the early DEQX products you had to do all the programming yourself and it was way to complicated for most people. With the Anthem the process is animated. You can get involved if you want to but you do not have to.

The only other unit is the $1300 MiniDSP SHD which is a good unit for the money but distinctly inferior to the STR. 

@mijostyn I’ll go Anthem and report back. Many thanks for the honest and knowledgeable advice.

@ricco275  Wonderful. You are about to enter a whole new world of possibilities. Lots of fun. If you have any problems feel free to message me. 

honest and knowledgeable advice

mijostyn is definitely super knowledgeable. Honest? 😉

(just kiddding)

Wouldn't you be better off picking your favorite speaker and adding some tone controls?

I can think of speakers that do well in low volumes, some Dynaudio and Dali models come immediately to mind, but of the types of brands you are interested in, they tend to be too neutral to play well softly alone.

@mijostyn wrote:

... Having said this, you are not going to create a loudness compensation curve via room treatment. The goal is to reverse the Fletcher-Munson curve at the volume you prefer to listen at. The curve changes with volume. The hinge point is about 1 kHz so there is significant boost by the time you get to both 500 Hz and 2 kHz. You can’t do that with subwoofers.

Oh, I agree. My advice on acoustics and positioning as the more "analogue" approach, though I wasn’t clear on this in my previous post, was meant to go in tandem here with mentioned DSP tools for corrective measures.

I do find subs could make for a potential enhancement of the overall sonic experience in the OP’s setting at more moderate volumes when being included in before mentioned "corrective measures," to have an extra pair of legs with an additional octave down low.

Good luck in your journey and my experience as I have upgraded my components- the low level listening has improved and my guess is because of the improved sound signal to the speakers. 
 

This has been true over three amplifiers - McIntosh MC 302, Moon M400 and Moon 860A v2. 

@phusis , I agree entirely but baby steps. Let Rocco get used to his new processor first.. We might already be stretching his budget.

Your Vitus amp is absolutely top class.  Unless you want an amp with loudness or tone controls I don’t think you will find any change to the low volume rendition by changing amps. 

I don’t think you need 100db efficiency necessarily but probably 90+. 85db efficient dudes are made more mid volume at least the one I’ve heard to come alive.  

I’m very happy with the Vitus. I many just need

to smoothen up things with the right cables. 

Shameless plug for the Dutch & Dutch 8c.

High WAF, can be placed within 4" of your front wall, plays easily down to 20hz, amplification, room correction, streaming built in. 

Can be custom tuned for each unique circumstance, including a night time mode.

www.dutchdutch.us

    
@grislybutter

Not trying to insult, I just thought it odd that since Volti only has 3 products, you only mentioned the entry and top of line model when the middle one had a higher 100db than the Raz 97db that's all.