@steve59 thanks! That might be a good option for me too!
High end speakers at low volume
After having got accustomed to my new Vitus RI-101 mk II, I came to the conclusion that I need to improve my system's performance at low volume to enjoy music more.
Current sources: LinnLP12, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Nucleus.
Speakers: Avalon Idea.
Shunyata Delta NR V2 and Hemingway Indigo PC, Tara Labs Forté, TQ 2 Black diamond IC.
I am looking at replacing the Avalon Idea with speakers that could improve the low volume listening experience. I listen to 60 / 70db, I can afford to go up to 85db for very short time (neighbours).
I am also considering to purchase a Loki Max which I understood being quite a neutral EQ unit.
I have selected a few speakers which should match my musical taste based on what I have read:
- YG Carmel 2
- Wilson Sabrina X
- Vandersteen treo ct
- TAD ME1
I don't have the chance to listen to them except the TAD ME1 which I have enjoyed very much but not in my apartment.
Budget max $15k new or used.
I am looking for speakers sounding musical, with wide soundstage, not cold, detailed yet not analytical.
I mostly listen to classic rock, blues and jazz.
The system sits at the end of the long wall in a living room measuring 33x13ft, listening position 8ft from the speakers.
Unfortunately I have to face a tough WAF putting several limits:
- speakers must have a clean design, not black, not too hifi looking... and not too big
- distance from the wall behind the speakers 25cm
I don't mind changing amplifier if it will be necessary to match the next speakers.
I haven't found a preamp that I could consider a good candidate except a very expensive CSport featuring a loudness button which works very well (tested at Ana Mighty Sound).
I would much appreciate some advice from who knows well the above speakers or who had similar needs.
137 responses Add your response
Congrats on the TAD's! I thought I added my .02 on this thread, but. I was dissatisfied with low volume listening thru my Blades even though I still appreciated what they do at 90 db and above. I brought home a pair of 600 watt monoblocks to replace my 300 wpc int and the low volume dynamics were/are transformed. The sonic improvement is so good I rarely listen loud anymore. I'm not mentioning brands because it seems to be a crapshoot finding the perfect speaker/amp combo. My speakers are now as dynamic and full bodied at 'everyone else in the house is asleep' volume as they were at live concert levels with the previous components. Of coarse the new kit cost me double what the last gear did, go figure. | ||
ricco275 my friend visits, often refers to his phone spl meter, for relative volume info. My speakers have two L-pads each: "Presence" and "Brilliance" (mid horn, tweeter horn) relative to their 15" cone woofer That test CD: I go thru 29 1/3 octave bands, (individually select; pause; continue...) adjusting/moving/tweaking until I get the best output at my location in that space. it’s not easy to get the pair’s output and l/r match perfected so frequencies don’t wander l or r as you go thru the range, but awesome when you get it right. at seated ear height; at seated position. for consistency, I prefer a separate directional meter on a tripod, giving me hands free capability for ..... these inexpensive spl meters can be ’perfectly’ calibrated after you receive them, however, all they really need to do is show relativity to be useful. i.e. more or less, thanks for the answer. | ||
@elliottbnewcombjr i use an app with my iPhone for SPL. | ||
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I agree with the wife, the stands are distractingly ug..' However, before you rush into new ones, I encourage you to mess about with toe-in and a milk crate, something low enough to need to tilt them up, so all the angles of reflection are altered. .......................... I use a SPL meter to help me, on a tripod, ear height and this test cd, with a full range of 1/3 octavetones https://www.discogs.com/release/7290000-Various-Amazing-Bytes expensive, I'm sure I could figure out a copy. | ||
@elliottbnewcombjr the stands were part of the deal and they are very good. I had custom stands with my previous speakers which were made of so called anti resonance steel platforms and solid walnut legs. They were stunning and loved by my wife. Unfortunately they performed way less well than the TAD speaker stands. TAD speakers have a damping material between speakers and stand and the bottom base is made of iron and mdf. Just with spikes I don’t have almost any resonance, the suspended wooden flooring is almost not vibrating at all. I have planned to add Symposium platforms and roller blocks for enhanced performance. my wife is expecting me to swap the stands with something better looking, ideally with wooden legs. I doubt I would achieve the same level of performance with wooden or wooden plus steel stands unfortunately. | ||
congrats on finding a good deal on speakers that you really like. current discussion about stands IF you did not buy their stands: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-are-speaker-stands-so-expensive my opinion stated there:
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@scott828 I know the thread is not short and people may have missed it but I have purchased a pair of TAD ME1 as showroom demo in mint condition. I love love love them and they sound terrific with the Vitus and at low volume too. Of course they could sound better at low volume as stated above by many. | ||
@elliottbnewcombjr agree 100% that need to boost up frequencies if you want to enjoy - I repeat enjoy and not having a perfect curve - music at low volume. I just need to find the easiest and less invasive component in any sense. I think the Loki Max should be good even if analogue. The Anthem preamp may alter the sound signature of the chain more. | ||
You people are driving me mad. There is so much mumbo jumbo in audio land, but the Equal Loudness Compensation is long standing verifiable science. Being an old dog having used ’Loudness’, in many makers products, and the Chase RLC-1 I wrote about, I am well aware of the benefit of ’Loudness’ Compensation at low volumes. The biggest improvement, for me, is to maintain proper level of Jazz bass players, which maintains ’involvement’ at low volume, without it, I find it becomes simply non-involving background music, musak if you will. ...................................... So many have equipment without balance, tone, loudness, .. ’PURE’ circuit paths, that the solution must be solved via add on equipment, the Chase unit the simplest for ANY setup. Optional use via tape or processor loops is ideal for the ’PURE’ crowd, however much newer equipment lacks in/out loops. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, To suggest ’this’ speaker is best for low volume is a chase into a firey pit. LOOK at the equal loudness curve, look/read, don’t ignore it because you lack features https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour IF any speaker sounds very good at low volume, without using tone controls or some form of equal loudness compensation, then that speaker’s frequency response has to be terrible at normal or louder volume! TERRIBLE. Imagine Stereophile reviewing speakers with a frequency response reflecting the equal loudness contour as factory produced normal sound level. Imagine a speaker designer deliberately producing said frequency response, being proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A bad joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Since you mentioned the high WAF, i would recommend you showing her pictures of the speakers in advance, then listen. Or bring it down to two or three choices. My wife hated my Klipsch setup, but loved the Wilsons. For that reason alone, i would look at the Sabrinas. Have you considered getting Roon and setting up a digital adjustment for when you need to listen at low volumes. I find this very useful, and it is much cheaper than dropping 15 k on speakers. Last, and i know you didn't ask, but your money can go much further with used speakers where there can be great value to price.
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I have been using digital room control (really speaker control) for 25 years and the really stunning effect is the laser focusing of the image. After the improvement in imaging the real benefit is in being able to tailor the amplitude response exactly to your taste. In the case of these processors the only thing that "sounds" is the analog section of the final DACs. In the case of a 2.2 system that would be 4 DAC channels. Once you are in numbers you can do almost anything you want without degradation assuming a 64bit floating point operation system. Digital volume is the problem. You lose bits when you turn the volume down. If you start out with a lot of them you can lose a bunch of them without affecting sound quality. My old processor is slow enough that there is loss of detail at low volumes. I will never live without digital signal processing. The affects on sound quality are such that any analog degradation is trivial, very trivial. In short you will greatly improve your image, you can make your system sound exactly the way you want and you can integrate subwoofers in a heartbeat with total freedom in placement. A really cool effect is, by placing the measurement microphone in various locations you can make the system image anywhere in the room. Obviously it is only at one location at a time but it is a really useful effect. My desk is at the left rear corner of the room. I have that location on a preset and use it when I am working. It is just like sitting in the listening position. The new DEQX series will be released shortly after beta testing of the software is completed. A number of us will be issued Pre 8s for testing at a reduced price. I was asked if I wanted to do this. Obviously yes, yes and yes. I have not heard back since. This was about 6 weeks ago. The Pre 8 has a complete 4 way digital crossover system built in along with full, computer managed digital signal processing capability. It looks like it is built like a battleship. | ||
My listening experience with Avalon speakers was not that impressive. They seem a little slow and wooden sounding in the lower mid. The sound you say you are looking for, fast with high resolution, but not in your face detail, should also communicate the micro dynamics, often glanced over in the hunt for speakers. Some times the hope of finding a better sound from the same old wooden boxes ends up simply being new type of shiny drivers.
I would highly recommend Wilson Benesch speakers. Heavily relying upon carbon fiber, not for driver use but rather to add the superb acoustical properties of carbon fiber to the cabinet construction. Carbon fibers are long and can be woven to both direct the energy away from the thinest part of the cabinet, the drivers, to the back of the cabinet which on some models an aluminum spine sheds the energy down into the spikes to the floor. The sound energy vibrates the billions of molecules and moving at 18,000 feet per second, away from the front of the speaker as that energy is converted to vibrational energy part of which is converted to heat. This is how stealth aircraft avoid radar. Converting the radar to heat not letting it return to the radar.
A little long explanation but with all this technology the fear is they won’s play music. This has been a very long term project for WB. A number of years ago they came out with a model that drew acclaim as the most accurate speaker available. I was not a fan. Only a few years later they found the sweet spot make music easily accessible.
Not sure on your electronics however it might be better to get your speakers let them break in before you change out other gear. You might make yourself crazy doing that.
Just read your post again. If you live in an apartment the Benesch speakers are clean and fast. Where most speakers will double at 40 hz and the 80 Hz waves always seem to get the sheetrock moving and the neighbors complaining.
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I'm with Phusis on this one. The post from @elliottbnewcombjr seems to address the calibration issue, so that is interesting. Id like to look into that. Some believe there are "transparent" electronics one can use in an audio system, but I find that nothing is truly transparent. Everything has a sound. On that basis, the simpler the system the better. Brad | ||
@ricco275 wrote:
I understand that’s what you want, and my earlier reply to you also reflected that stance with reference to the DSP products suggested by poster @mijostyn. My latest post however was referring to the approach I use myself, and what’s also more in line with what poster @lonemountain touched upon. I believe the most predominant takeaway with the Anthem or similar in your case is the aspect of digital room correction, rather than the usable outcome of different presets within specified ~10dB range, but that’s just me. It’ll be interesting to learn of your findings here, and what you prefer/find worth it. | ||
This Chase Remote Line Controller RLC-1 unit includes automatic and progressive LOW VOLUME compensation. It is like adding the Fletcher Munson ’loudness’ to a modern preamp that lacks that feature: It can be used as a source selector OR single in/out from a preamp, OR optionally via a tape loop, or processor loop The s/n 120db is true, no-one can tell if it is in/out of my 3 systems. I simply use it for remote power to my Luxman in my office system. ............................................. Setup: a. turn on, Chase default volume has no loudness compensation. b. turn on your preamp, adjust it’s volume for your normal (not low) volume. never use that volume control after that, you will use the Chase volume after a and b c, Chase Volume (nice small incremental changes): Increase, no loudness adjustments involved Decrease (from a. it’s default volume). Loudness Compensation is automatically and progressively implemented, a bit, bit more, ... It also has tone controls, I have never used them as I balance my speakers via their 2 level controls/spl/test tones. Two identical outputs. NOTE: must include the REMOTE, there are no controls on the unit. "The RLC-1 was tested in Stereo Review and got good marks for its excellent specs and sonics. " | ||
@phusis my need is exactly to have presets to play music at a specific range of db, between 60 and 70db. The Anthem preamplifier seems to be a good solution with good feedbacks from users. | ||
Good post, Brad. Many think DSP automatically = digital room correction, but at its core it's simply a tool working in the digital domain with conversion(s) along the way, and DRC mayn't be part of that. I've calibrated my setup via a digital crossover (i.e.: DSP) fully actively sans DRC at a specific and desired SPL, call it reference volume level, which is a reflection of where I want it to sound the best. I hardly go any louder than that, and at lower levels it comes surprisingly alive. Still, that the presentation at ref. level is preferred and is where "everything fits" is not saying it sounds bad at low SPL's, but simply that a certain level is required for proper room fill, presence and physicality. Others setups I know very well are obviously "tuned" to lower SPL's via passive, lower eff. speakers, but at louder levels it's clear they become too hot sounding in the HF region while sometimes being overly warm-ish in the LF department. ATC speakers generally have struck me as being at their best at a certain SPL, say, from 80-85dB's, but that only tells me their balance is attained at these levels where they're typically used in monitoring. | ||
@lonemountain and what’s your take on digital room treatment such as in the Anthem preamp. I’d believe that’s a different story than ordinary DSP. | ||
Experience with lots of pro and hi fi systems over the years says low level sound quality is mostly related to higher gain audio quality- as simple as that. Despite the obvious Fletcher Munson ear sensitivity issues, that would point some towards a loudness control, most of these loudness controls are not calibrated to the efficiency/SPL of the loudspeaker at a given volume- so are just a random more bass and treble control (which when used always sounds better to most listeners). But it is not more accurate. Fletcher Munson curves are directly driven by SPL so must be calibrated to the system and its output to be accurate. In pro mastering, where a lot of mastering is done at low level and high level both, there is no such thing as a different EQ curve for loud vs soft. I’ve never met anyone in 30 years who thought they needed it or asked me if I knew of anything that did that. If the speakers don’t sound good at low level, they probably didn’t sound good at high level either. Experienced listeners accept there will be less low and high end at low level, but they expect the midrange (the translating part of the sound) to be consistent between low and high level. Engineers and customers both expect the mix or master to sound good at ANY level. NOW if I am only listening at low level, that could be a different scenario. I might choose a completely system all together. But it wouldn’t be for improved accuracy- it would be for better enjoyment! I think this whole issue is not worth any jump to DSP as a method to cope with level. The move to DSP can completely change the perception of the entire rig as it affects everything, not just low level loudness compensation. Brad | ||
In my opinion, the best way to get a system that sounds good at low volume is with an SET and a pair of sensitive speakers. As I have improved the quality of my system, every detail, especially the digital, the less I need to turn it up, i.e., the better it sounds at low volume. Point number 2: The bigger and more powerful the amp you buy, the less likely it is to sound good at low volume. I won't name names but I had a very powerful amp with a better-than-average reputation which I bought to drive some Martin Logans. Switching to a much more sensitive speaker pair, I was not impressed with the speakers...I was about to sell them until I heard them with an SET. the powerful amp was gone in a week. Currently using a 2 wpc amp while a custom 4 wpc amp is being built. The ability to sound good at low volume is important to me. I tend to listen many hours a day while doing other things on the computer (like make this post) so I can't use high volumes that would fatigue my ears. Jerry
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I gave up finding what I was after from pre-made a few years ago, and after a few hiccoughs made my own. I used a 97db wide range driver with a 91db efficient planar tweeter in a folded open baffle, sized to work with the driver QTS to make a passive highpass filter, and sum with an H Frame cardioid bass panel and it's own plate amp. It's not the last word in resolution, but for my all in one system it's great. With movies, even when the absurdly loud parts are played low enough not to bother my neighbours, even whispers are easily followed, without riding the gain control. Not as revealing as some old Tannoy D700s or an Altec 1505B/ 511B horn set up I made about 10 years ago, but it's smoother and images better in all directions. | ||
@co93 Carmel 2 were on my list. | ||
Believe it or not, have a vitus r101 mii driving a pair of Carmels. It wasn’t my intention, but I noticed it’s the only system combination I have that is absolutely enjoyable at low levels. The sound is complete and full. Nothing is missing. I listen to that system early in the morning when I don’t want to disturb anyone. Quite remarkable actually. | ||
@dwest1023 thank you. Appreciated. | ||
You asked about the schitt Loki Max. It will definitely help at low volume. Someone mentioned about adding noise, well maybe with a scope you , might see it, but to my ears I hear nothing added to my music. Because the unit is all analog it seems to change the characteristic of your speakers rather artificially affect your music. I dont use mine often but when I need it is does the job superbly. I use mine with my Pass Labs 250 integrated. | ||
Listening to Miles now 65dB peaking a tad over 70dB, very enjoyable. Lots of PRAT, and enough bass to not wanting more. Speakers KEF Reference 3, Backard Labs preamplifier and AGP Vivace monoblocks. Source digital 24bit file streamed through an Auralic Vega G1. Do not need a loudness contour button. This is the level I typically solo listen to and consistently notice I’m tapping my foot away. Of course if I bring the dBs up to my next notch 75 to peaking in the low 80s it becomes even more engaging which is typically the level I will play when friends visit, but on a day to day I’m extremely satisfied with the low volume listening. If I go below that yes I lose the bass and upper end, so pretty much I stay within the two sweet spots. I suggest you try the KEF Reference series out. Due to your constraints the Reference 1 might be a better choice. Like someone mentioned previously you are going to cripple your sound stage depth keeping any speaker so close to the front wall. You also may need a front or bottom ported speaker due to your placement constraint. For this reason I suggest auditioning your speaker with that placement first before purchasing. Last point, the amplifier I am using really handles bass beautifully which is one reason I can listen at low volume settings and not miss much bass impact. | ||
Yes, I choose Pass Labs INT 25 for that reason as I also listen to 60-70dbs most of the time. My speakers are Sonus faber olympica 2 rated at 88dbs/1v/1m. I can assure you that this combination is very satisfying at low levels. It feels the room and you hear all details and nuances regardless of the volume level. | ||
@celestial__sound agree. Tone control helps too I think. Do you have preamp and power with short signal path to recommend? Beside CAT SL1 and pass xa 25. | ||
So many wrong answers here.. High sensitivity speakers doesn't necessary mean better sound at low volume. While sensitivity is one aspect to consider, it doesn't solely determine the overall sound quality of a speaker at low volume. As some one else suggested here, lower the noise floor as much as you can to improve the sound quality at low levels. Choose electronics with the shortest signal path. Less is more applies here | ||
Not trying to insult, I just thought it odd that since Volti only has 3 products, you only mentioned the entry and top of line model when the middle one had a higher 100db than the Raz 97db that's all. | ||
@phusis , I agree entirely but baby steps. Let Rocco get used to his new processor first.. We might already be stretching his budget. | ||
@mijostyn wrote:
Oh, I agree. My advice on acoustics and positioning as the more "analogue" approach, though I wasn’t clear on this in my previous post, was meant to go in tandem here with mentioned DSP tools for corrective measures. I do find subs could make for a potential enhancement of the overall sonic experience in the OP’s setting at more moderate volumes when being included in before mentioned "corrective measures," to have an extra pair of legs with an additional octave down low. | ||
Wouldn't you be better off picking your favorite speaker and adding some tone controls? I can think of speakers that do well in low volumes, some Dynaudio and Dali models come immediately to mind, but of the types of brands you are interested in, they tend to be too neutral to play well softly alone. | ||
@ricco275 Wonderful. You are about to enter a whole new world of possibilities. Lots of fun. If you have any problems feel free to message me. | ||
@mijostyn I’ll go Anthem and report back. Many thanks for the honest and knowledgeable advice. | ||
@ricco275 , I saw The Absolute Sound Article but can't seem to find the Stereophile one. None of the four or five reviews I read mentioned any harshness. Harshness is generally an amplitude problem which can always be programmed out with a preamp like this so I would think it was something Stereophile was doing. In reading reviews when you see a problem that is echoed by all the reviews you know it is an issue. You are way better off with the Anthem than you are with the Premate plus. With the early DEQX products you had to do all the programming yourself and it was way to complicated for most people. With the Anthem the process is animated. You can get involved if you want to but you do not have to. The only other unit is the $1300 MiniDSP SHD which is a good unit for the money but distinctly inferior to the STR. |
