I've never had any problems with e-commerce. I have purchased McIntosh and Klipsch from Crutchfield and Music Direct and amps from Carydirect. Each kindly answered all my questions and offered suggestions. I also received thank you notes for my purchases. My experience with bricks and mortar (BM) dealers has been nowhere as satisfying. They will go unnamed here, but these jerks won't return phone calls or respond to email. I wanted to buy a Mac MC275 amp and the POCs finally got back to me after I contacted McIntosh directly. By then, I went ahead and purchased a comparable Cary tube amp and have been satisfied. The BM make their money in home theater installs not sales. Manufacturers know this, so they should consider e-commerce or direct sales. The bricks and mortar dealers should just get out of the retail business altogether and focus on their precious installations.
Yes … Arrogant Dealers who sign up to audio forums and attempt to throw their weight around with threats of legal action against forum members , Never goes down well.
I do not like dealers who won't even greet you with a smile and a 'Hi, how are you doing, can I help you with anything?', even if they're not at all busy. I've worked in retail, and I know it's not all that difficult to do that. Like they're doing me a big favor by letting me in the store.
Seems like every "mean dealer" thread (in any field, just not audio) has a smelly customer in bib overalls buying $200,000 story.
Most dealers today, at least the ones I have encountered, are super friendly. Most do some sort of Home Theatre business as well. Selling $600 Yamaha A/V receivers, soundbars,...you name it. I'm sure there are exceptions.....my experience has been the opposite. The only issues I see is lack of display model on something newer, except McIntosh. Mac dealers generally have the newer stuff pretty quick.
I am sure that most all of us has this type of story or situation that has happened to us over the course of time. I guess rather than waste time and energy on those negative things, I’d much rather give the shout out to those that have given great service and their time!
Mine, like several other stories mentioned in here, the young kid with little to not much money to spend on hifi, yet eager to listen and learn, was helped by a guy that I still respect to this day. In the early 80’s I walked in to Glen Poor’s A/V at the Round Barn center in Champaign, Illinois. I was about 22 at the time. Geoffrey Poor met me at the door, took me right back to listen to some Mark Levinson gear with Magnepan Tympani’s. He took the time to set up and listen to Tandberg, Amber, and some other gear, even though he knew I didn’t have the means at the time to purchase, and maybe never would. Yet the seed was sewn, and another visit later, I bought a pair of Pyramid Metronome 7 speakers, and eventually Magnepan MGI’s. A few more things were purchased over the course of time.
I do not get over to his shop very often, maybe once or twice a year, as I moved away from the area, but when I do go in and Geoff is there, he always treats me the same way as that day back in the 80’s. I try to send others that I know to visit him, as they are able. Just a great dealer, and more so, a friend without the crap and snobbery. His dealership has moved some time ago, but doing good business to this day.
It is easy to bust dealers balls, maybe some deserve it, maybe some don’t. But let’s give credit to those that do a fine job in this tough business time! FWIW….
This is more reflective of our hobby and not the vast majority of Americans. The same sort of thing happens with Whisky. Don't walk into certain bars and ask for ice or water in a single malt scotch without being insulted by the bartender and half the patrons.
Whenever money and expertise can have an influence on something, expect those "that know" to talk down to those who don't.
That's not really America you are talking about there. But we aren't allowed to talk about what it is. Not here anyway. Give you a hint though, the vast expanse of America, is not like that at all.
Incidentally, fairness and respect are part of my business model.
That’s terrific. In the country where I live this is quite normal, being a largely egalitarian country.
Conspicuous displays of wealth are actually viewed with some caution, as are those who are blessed with substantial wealth and are just too lazy (??) to bother to even have a sleep and a shower after maybe working straight for 50 hours (the neurosurgeon story).
If they are trying to make some sort of Pretty Woman statement (for whatever deep psychological character flaw reason) then by all means go on social media and vent, should this be cathartic.
On the other hand, people of modest/middle class means generally have the self respect and common sense to at least make some effort into presenting themselves in a decent manner.
The salespeople may be there to serve the customer of course, but it is a two way street - you are a guest on their premises.
From all the anecdotes I have read here and on another similar thread about a month ago it would appear that America is one of the least egalitarian and most judgmental places on earth and one that I probably would not enjoy visiting.
Before I started Verdant (and this was part of the reason I did), I made the rounds to multiple dealers in NYC. One I really liked but there wasn't a match in terms of products. The others....when I asked "why does every track I select on this system sound terrible and the ones you pick sound great?" Response, "That's because your music sucks." Evidently it is too much to ask that I can listen to something more than Diana Krall and Nils Lofgren. Another called me and after I told him I was just about to sit down for dinner (it was 6:15) did his best to keep me on the phone for 20 minutes explaining his philosophy on sound. A third dealer has a speaker priced $1000 over MAP. When I asked why it was so much more expensive than what we reported in TAS he lied and told me they took a price increase. But, he did offer me "marketing credits" he could use to get me back to MAP.
I new I was getting screwed at the time and bought those speakers from another dealer. Now, I am now a dealer for that brand and am keenly aware of how severely he was trying to screw me.
Incidentally, fairness and respect are part of my business model.
I'm surprised about all the arrogant high end dealers. In todays world, dealers make a small % off financing options. Car dealers do not like cash buyers...they want to sell the financing as well.
@dvddesignerabout 12 years back we would travel to Houston, Texas to see my in-laws. We would stay out by the galleria mall and there was a MODIA electronics store there. There was a guy named Mike who I would go see and for 3 years I would go in and look and listen and in the 4th year I bought a classe amplifier and a cp800. I knew he thought I was always kicking tires but he was patient nice and always took his time. Great guy and experience. But it reminded me why I bought from him. He earned it. I felt like I took up his time and he earned my trust and that sale. Unfortunately, I have had to deal with folks too in the past who I thought were cool but weren’t. Very unfortunate but that’s how it is. If you educate yourself in this game some folks don’t like it but it is what it is.
@dvddesignerabout 12 years back we would travel to Houston, Texas to see my in-laws. We would stay out by the galleria mall and there was a MODIA electronics store there. There was a guy named Mike who I would go see and for 3 years I would go in and look and listen and in the 4th year I bought a classe amplifier and a cp800. I knew he thought I was always kicking tires but he was patient nice and always took his time. Great guy and experience. But it reminded me why I bought from him. He earned it. I felt like I took up his time and he earned my trust and that sale. Unfortunately, I have had to deal with folks too in the past who I thought were cool but weren’t. Very unfortunate but that’s how it is. If you educate yourself in this game some folks don’t like it but it is what it is.
This thread highlights the importance of first impressions. The very dealer that one person a few posts back speaks glowingly of was horrible on the phone and would be the last place I would spend my money. My interaction was with the owner of the company, so I have to think they set the tone for the business. Perhaps I should give them another chance, but there are too many good dealers here in the Northwest to take the chance of subjecting myself to that again.
If you live near Milwaukee, WI - the stereo store "Audio Emporium" is a very nice middle to high end store. Dave Holmes is the owner. Extremely laid back store "vibe" with no pressure. Very friendly staff. Dave will likely be the one to assist you.
Can spend as much time as u wish without any pressure to buy.
I think bib overalls vs a tuxedo would be treated the same.
Yes to some degree - it is paramount to work with a dealer that you trust and vibe with. Now for a little story.
When as was around 12yo or so I was starting to get into music an had a very modest system in my bedroom. Basically a Zenith Mini Wedge with Zenith Allegro speakers
One day i was out shopping with mom and she wanted to go to this cosmetics shop . Having no interest i walked down the a stereo shop at the end of the plaza. They welcomed me and showed me around and let me listen to a system consisting of Mark Levinson electronics, Thonres turntable, and Magnepan speakers. Wow. I knew this hobby was for me. I then listened to a system with Threshold amps and Tandberg electronics.
The thing is they took time with this "kid" who clearly had no cash and introdcued me to the hobby. Within a few weeks the parents bought me a system for my bedroom from this delaer and I remianed a customer thru my teenage years buying a variety of gear during that time.
Then in collage, we had a delaer in down that sold Wilson, YBA and other hard to find gear but the systems I fell in love with were a full stack Cello system and one based around Martin Logan Quest speakers. I was a customer for years till he decided to to get out of the business.
Once I find a dealer I try to stay loyal to them for the long hall and it has worked out for me for the most part.
I’ve had the experience at a certain store here and have declined to give that store my business, their loss. I find it interesting, here at least locally, you can have all the money in the world, but walk in wearing sweatpants, a Tshirt, sandals, with NY baseball cap and you will be totally ignored. Go back in a week, wearing slacks, shoes, nice shirt and they are all over you in a heartbeat. Due to my taste in fashion a few places and sales people have lost a very good cash sale.
Joel - right on man. Lots of good dealers and people. Looking forward to catching up w Bruce at Stereo Unlimited, dropping off some hooch for his holiday. Flipping thru the Blue Notes on offer, grubbing in the used gear, .....
Maybe I have just been lucky, but all of my audio purchases over the years, at several good independent retailers, have been positive experiences. And upon my return to the store(s), weather or not I am intending to buy anything, they have always been very pleasant. Over the past several years I have been purchasing numerous products at Upscale Audio, here in Southern California. What a pleasant and professional group of people there. From the owner to the sales staff to the technical/service staff, just a great group of people. I am happy to make such a good report on an audio retailer. I hope that you all have such good fortune. But if not, don't let a bad apple spoil the barrel of quality audio retailers. Just move on to another one. The vast majority are truly great people.
Along with several replies, yes. The audiophile community and dealers are interesting at many levels. Arrogance, elitist, opinionated... Notwithstanding this audiogon forum at times. The brick and mortar store I've used locally is great while you're a customer but once you've made your purchases, they have no time for you. I get it to a degree. But I've spent a lot of money and referred friends who have also spent considerable money and they’re of the same opinion. Once you made your purchases, you are yesterday's news.
Every audiophile who's been at it long enough has war stories to tell. Here's one of mine:
In the late 70's or early 80's, I happened to wander into a local high-end audio shop. It was a gorgeous sunny day in the middle of the week. I had the day off and a couple hours to kill. So, I decided to amuse myself by investiageting what this shop had to offer. It was the middle of a workday and foot traffic was slow. I and, I assumed, the owner were the only people in the shop. Since I was only kicking tires with no intention to buy anything, I certainly didn't want to bother the owner. He seemed busy doing something and I was content to just have a quick look at the inventory and listen to the background music. After 5 or 10 minutes or so, the owner approached and asked if there was anything specific I was looking for. I explained that I had just dropped in to have a quick look around and had no intention of buying anything. Since he, evidently, had nothing better to do himself, we had a very pleasant chat about various pieces of equipment, music we enjoyed and all the stuff audiophiles would talk about in such circumstances. Just as I was about to leave and thank him for letting me look around, he asked if I had another couple minutes or so to listen, for fun, to what he said was the best two channel system in the shop. What audiophile would say "no" to that? I don't remember the specific components involved but the turntable was the best B&O had to offer in those days. The speakers were a pair of 5 or 6 foot tall electrostatic or ribbon speakers and I'm sure the amplification was the best in the shop. I remember the speakers, alone, cost more than I made in a year back then. We listened to some very nice music for about 5 minutes or so and, then, I thanked him for his time and explained I really should be on my way. The owner asked what I thought of the speakers. I responded by politely saying: "Nice." It was clear, from his somewhat surprised countenance, he expected a much more effusive or enthusiastic review. What I really had been privately thinking was: "Who the heck would pay that kind of money for these things? I've heard much better at less than half the cost!" However, realizing fidelity was in the ears of the beholder and wanting to be polite, I just said: "Nice". I tend to be honest that way. It's a curse! This launched a brief discussion about frequency response, bass articulation, detail and everything else one could imagine. You know... audiophilesplaining. This guy was so... well, "angry" wouldn't be fair but acrimoniously disappointed, verging on angry, would be about right.
Back when we lived in the DC area, I visited a lot of "brick and mortar" shops in search of a new pair of speakers.
If my memory serves me, I stopped at one in Bethesda, MD on a dreadfully hot, humid day, with on-and-off rain all afternoon. When I walked in the front door, the sales rep greeted me with "do you have an appointment?" It pretty much went down hill from there. They had the speakers I was interested in driven by a high-quality amp that was in a rack on the shelf above the amp I owned, but they were not willing to unplug the speaker cables to plug them into the same model I owned. Being a hot day, the AC fan was so loud, I asked if I could have them turn the AC off for 5-10 minutes, but they weren't willing to, saying they would be happy to increase the volume.
My second week open at my high-end store (1974--South Florida) a young man walked in with no shoes, no shirt, cut-offs, and really long, stringy blonde hair.
Surfer, I thought, but hey, I was only open two weeks, so what the heck?
He bought the most expensive Audio Research and Magneplaners in the store, along with a Trinitron TV (remember them?) and a Thornes TT, SME arm, and Supex cartridge. He ordered a Nakamichi, which was not out yet.
He then went to his car and came in with a suitcase of cash.
SO, I learned very early that, one, never discount a customer over appearance, and two, NEVER ask a customer what they do for a living.
In those days in South Florida, and thoughout the 1980's, we had MANY cash transactions from people one may not think on first look could make those purchases.
Now, the man I sold the business to had two rules: treat customers like crap, and if they don't squeal at the price, double it.
Thankfully over the past decades I've had a lot more positive experiences than negative, so have relegated the names of the jerks to the mental dustbin. Dealers who were more than helpful (even when I was a high schooler and college kid with little to spend) were Jonas Miller, Havens & Hardesty, Middleton, White and Kemp, and of course Neil Sinclair and Evelyn at the original Absolute Audio in Santa Ana. These days I consider Mike at Excel Audio (Newport Beach) to be my "go-to" dealer, and have made two (for me) major purchases from him in the past year.
The place I go to has greeted me like a friend. I walk in they give me a hard time with a smile and will put on music in one of their rooms just for me to listen to. I once was asking about buying a subwoofer and told him what for. He said go right to the -------- dealer they are having a great sale online, I can’t beat it. The cash was in my hand. Over the years I have spend a few k there. Sometimes they have what I need or they think I like, sometimes they don’t and direct me elsewhere. Always have the policy of take it home and listen to it first, then come back and tell us what you think. Went through 3 choices of speakers one time, bought the last onces which were what he thought I might like with the electronics I have. Even when I thought I liked something but it just wasn't right or I was hedging, they said don't spend the money if it isn't right. Superb place, they want you happy. Happy customers return.
I always have a way of dealing with arrogant and people that thinks their crap don't stink. I will yell at their face right in the store in front of all the customers where the arrogant people will just shut up, surprised and end up listening to you, then at the end I always the one that's right and they're wrong and 99.99% of the time they beg to apologize to me. As a customer no one wins over me.
My former Dealer Bob Spence was great. He really made you feel right at home. He would give me long demos and bought things from him time and time again. He also educated me along the way in audio. We have even had listening sessions at each other's houses. He was old school. Did lots of business. I referred lots of clients to him. That's the way it was supposed to be.
What I have noticed is most of the dealers are not willing to sell below full retail. Some of the out of town retailers are willing to sell for less because they can burry the sale without anyone being the wiser. Let's say they drop their price on an out of state sale and mark it up 10%, I would rather throw in a few of those deals because they all add up to a total gross profit number at the end of the month. It also helps them to turn their inventory so in turn they are able to increase their volume with their suppliers which in turn makes them more valuable to them.
I'm not a high roller in audio gear, but my three local shops have always been very friendly to me. The one that is probably the highest end dealer with Focal Utopia Grande (or the next one down) speakers typically available for demo. The salesman that I worked with when I made my first real dive into hi fi gear really would just sit and listen to music with me. They setup whatever I was interested to hear. I have always tried to be respectful of their time and only asked them for something specific if I was intending to make a purchase. If I'm just browsing I'll just listen to whatever they have setup and am upfront about my intentions. The second shop has a very community based atmosphere. I was planning to purchase a used tube amplifier from them and the owner recommended that I purchase a Yaqin amplifier that was available on eBay instead. He actually ordered it, set it up for me, and charged me exactly what I would have paid for it had I made the purchase. I tracked down an LP of one of my favorite albums that's fairly unique and gave it to him as a thank you. His approach to building a business is exactly what every shop should do. Most of the time when I'm in the shop he's working on something and beyond a welcome he just continues what he's doing unless you make an inquiry. I will say that it's never felt like he's ignoring you, more like you're considered to be a friend and welcome to make yourself comfortable. I've only had one experience at the third shop and we did have a conversation where it was clear that they didn't want me to waste their time and then buy online. When I confirmed that I would make the purchase from them if I decided to move forward they were happy to show me whatever was of interest.
There are those that 'get it'....and those that don't, and may never....
Local ACE hdwr. relocated...new shop center, don't know me from the mulch in the outside bed with typ. plant...
'Hey, you're a Stilhs' dealer! Kewl...." Got treated with respect and good 'tude since I pushed the door....cruised the display, no pressure....
Came back w/my foreman..."Which?" Needed some hardware, bought all they had, asked if they could order a case of same.
Did it. Didn't know me from a wheel stop.
Foreman came in & picked that case. I came back separately and dropped $ on a mid-level saw and some this 'n that. 800$ bang to start their day.
Friendly and good cheer at all times...and knowing enough to get out of the way while the decisions were made....even if elsewhere....
No, not audio, but smart sales....let 'm look, costs nothing but an eye....Serious will ask serious queries, perhaps pull the trigger.
It's like fly fishing, although I don't.... Bait is overhead....
If they come in asking for Nirvana, it ought to be obvious within a minute what's in the mind of the 'client'..
If not...hire a new sales stiff. If it's your brother-in-law....shoot self.
On-Line? Do your research like you'd buy a house. If it stinks, don't get hosed with it as well. PayPal ain't perfect, but neither are we. Gird thy loins....
If I'm only preaching @ the bored choir....well...
He was very accommodating demoing equipment for me. I didn't buy and felt no pressure. If I find something I really want, I won't hesitate to buy from him. Highly recommended!
Yes. I think everyone eventually runs into some arrogant jerk. Although as my career moved on, it happened less and less. Audio folks can typically figure out what you can afford. Some of them are only in it to make money, they are not there because they love the music and high hi. So they will make a call and write you off, right or wrong. Although if they are disingenuous, I'll write them off and not buy there.
@fiesta75 Wow. A high-end shop in Honolulu. The best...er only...high-end shop I've come across on the Big Island is the Hilo Office Max. Hey, they actually do have interconnects and ethernet cable...though the cheap stuff. Yeah, my nearest high-end retailer is cyberspace. I can shop there guilt free.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
