Has the ASR review/hatchet job on the Musetec MH-DA005 Changed Anyone's Mind?

@hoping Thanks for saying so. Appreciated.

@fsonicsmith - I like your arguments. I even think there may be some unknown attributes in wildly admired audio components as of today. Characteristics that haven't yet been pinpointed and thus haven't been measured? And perhaps many people could hear those unidentified with today's gear and therefore not measured qualities. Maybe someday in the future, these characteristics will be identified, and equipment to measure them will be built.

@hilde45 - I have read just a very few of your posts here. And they impress me. They sound like a voice of reason on this thread. Thumbs up!

I'd like to that everyone who has contributed to this thread, which I have found very helpful, among others Melm's very thoughtful comment from earlier today.  

@yakbob

Unless you're playing in MSB / dCS territory, resale value on most brands of DACs is a losing proposition.

With all due respect this is nonsense. The DACs you mention are only worth buying ex-demo or used because they shed huge re-sale losses.

Max you would lose on a 005 would be about $800.00

In the view of some of us it isn’t that measurements don’t make a difference in sound quality. It’s that sound quality is the ONLY important consideration.

The designer/manufacturer of this DAC has produced several DACs over the past 12 years or so. They have been sold world-wide, though mostly in Asia, principally in Hong Kong. Over the years this very small producer has gained a following. His following has been uniquely on the basis of his DACs’ sound quality. There is no promotion; there is no hype; there is no advertising. In all the reading I’ve done I have never before come across a set of measurements for the DACs going back to the LKS MH-DA002. Several folks, including me, have had an LKS MH-DA004 and on the basis of listening, basically said to themselves: if this is what he can do for about $1500, I MUST hear what he can do for $3200. I was also influenced by the quality of the parts within, and the overall construction. Others bought this DAC based on the reports only of sound quality. I think it is fair to say that, by and large, they like what they have heard and they are quite satisfied with the purchase. They have written as much. Extensively. Their DACs sound just as fine after the ASR report as before.

The designer has written that he designs by ear and not by measurement. He says designing for measurement is relatively easy for a trained engineer. At various stages he says he made changes that could improve measurements but reversed them if the sound quality, as he heard it, was not as good. If that makes people very uncomfortable, they should probably look elsewhere for a DAC. Over the course of this audio hobby, and some of us have been into it for a long time, that approach to design used to be celebrated. The designer has given an example in the lack of any feedback in his discrete analog stage. A lack of feedback is often advertised, and is generally understood, to yield better sound quality but poorer measurements. Op amp chips with feedback (and better measurements) are thought to yield a kind of clean but sterile sound, well recognized in several popular DACs on the market. In many other areas of audio, decisions are often made in favor of devices with poorer measurements than alternatives. That would include tubes and analog sound generally.

The ASR article certainly has opened up a useful discussion of measurements versus listening as criteria for audio component design and selection. It’s as old as audio. Recall that early solid state electronics were "proven" by measurements to outperform high quality tube units. Modern solid state? Modern tubes? Digital? Analog? Who knows?

Most of these thoughts were expressed (and now buried) in the long Musetec thread.

Nice of ASR to tank the resale value of the 005.......

Unless you're playing in MSB / dCS territory, resale value on most brands of DACs is a losing proposition. Not many are willing to buy into older digital tech. Prospective sellers could maximize resale value by listing here since the consensus is measurements don't make a difference in sound quality.

The volume control of the LA4 is maybe the best I have heard. It does click so that is a no go for many but I look at it as a feature and not a bug. The quietness of the LA4 is what separates the LA4 from the 07x. The Benchmark DAC3 HSC (a preamp + DAC) sounded better connected to the quieter LA4 preamp. I sold the DAC3 HSC when I was on that merry-go-round.

The gain on the individual LA4 inputs can be set separately for each input. That feature is referred to as BOOST on the menu.

I was considering buying the HOLO Audio Serene preamp for my second system. It measures a little better than the LA4 and is slightly warmer. There is a review comparing both and also a forum thread about it on Computer Audiophile. However, I decided to stick with a second LA4 because I know it works the way I like and the form factor is also better than the Serene for my needs.

I plan on a $2.5K LA4 preamp + $2.5K used Musetec 005 + $36.5K KRELL KSA i400 amp to drive KEF BLADE 2 Meta. This system will be amazing to my ears, since I have owned this before with the lower end KRELL and KEF LS50 Meta.

BTW - that push button feature of the 07x volume control was a bit of a pain because my wife’s dog liked to hang with in my office late at night, and he would bump into that volume and change the way the volume worked.

@yyzsantabarbara How does the volume control of the LA4 compare to that of the 07X? Are the individual inputs on the LA4 able to be individually configured gain wise like the 07X?

Nice of ASR to tank the resale value of the 005.......

There absolutely a place for measurements I guess. Pretty sure a 20k Lampizator dac would measure like sh.t! Could be wrong but guessing so. Does it sound amazing…. I’m betting so. Things aren’t black and white. My new dac sounds much better than the darling RME dac I had before. Is it better? Well the RME likely measures better? Dunno. It’s WAY fu.cking better though. Not even in the same ballpark if you want a natural sound. Colored.. I don’t know …. Don’t care cause I’ve went through the gamut on all the genres of music I listen to and it’s the best digital I’ve heard in my system. 
 

They are measuring a sine wave. So whoopidy doo. 

I have 2 of the Musetec 005 units. Though 1 is back in storage waiting another day and another system. The 005 is a smooth DAC and that is one attribute (of many) that draws people to it and sometimes people away from it.

I love the 005 with my Benchmark LA4 preamp and AHB2 monos. The BM gear are or were the kings of the hill at ASR for specs, though I bought them way before ASR ever heard of them. Rory at Benchmark suggested to me by email, that I try the then brand new AHB2. which he thought would be a revolutionary product. With the LA4 + AHB2 combo, that tiny bit of smoothness of the 005 is better than the harder edged Benchmark DAC3B because the DAC3B is a little strong on top and the AHB2 will let you hear everything. Both DACs maybe a little deficient in this regards, maybe error on smoothness on the 005 and error on being a little hot for the DAC3B,

I also tried the Musetec 005 and CODA 07x preamp and it was nice but a little too smooth combo for me. So I sold the 07x and kept the 005. I also kept the more neutral Benchmark LA4 preamp over the CODA 07x preamp (YMMV). The Musetec 005 + LA4 + CODA # 8 (sold) | KRELL DUO 175XD (sold) | Benchmark AHB2 were all amongst the best combos I have had in the house and the 005 was the source to all of them. So a lot of credit to it.

Now, when did the 005 smoothness draw me away from the 005 to something else? It was using it with maybe the worlds best headphone amp, the RAAL VM-1a and SR1a and CA-1a phones. The smoothness of the 005 and the 7 tubes on the VM-1a did not play nice. I had the owner of RAAL also listen to my 005 and his SR1a/CA-1a + VM-1a for 1 month at his shop and he also did not like it. It was too lifeless or smooth. He is a tube guy and his listening skills are likely legendary given that 6Moons wrote a complete page about that. So when he confirmed my feelings I realized the 005 is not what I will use on the VM-1a. I use the DAC3B on it for now. I am enjoying the heck out of it but looking for maybe an upgrade to the DAC3B for the VM-1a (maybe a Briscati). However, I do not plan on selling the 2 005s and when the stored 005 comes back to life it should shine nicely in the second system I am raising cash for now.

The DAC is incredible.  I've been starting to think about an aurender N200 to replace my A10 but my DAC isn't going anywhere.

ASR has lambasted DACs for 0.003% THD.  My tube amp has 1% THD, ask yourself, how relevant is 0.003% as a measure of audible performance, answer 0.000000000000%.

These days it is really hard to come across a "bad" dac acoustically by listening. Maybe that is why the asr solely rely on the measurement possibly because all dacs sound the same to his ears.  Just maybe...

Moderator was offended by something I said? 

@sns Big +1!!!  It’s amazing what you can hear when you just trust your own ears rather than having to be “told” what “must” sound good on the basis of measurements.  Sad.  Just sad. 

That review has Not changed my mind about ASR...it is One of, if not The Funniest Satirical reads on the internet...

What... they're Serious?... you're kidding... Sorry... My Bad...

@jc4659 

I honestly hope its reliability is as good as its performance.

The Musetec 005 has been out for about 4 years.  It has been written about extensively by many owners during this time on two English language sites, one here with more than 1400 posts.  If I'm not mistaken there has not been any reported issue of non-reliability at all.  Apparently it's built like a rock and with top line components.  Not to worry.

Its not bad unit, Musetec responded to ASR by stating they voice components, measurements may take hit because of this, Musetec also admitted they didn't have the quality of measuring equipment ASR uses.

It would be interesting to hear what a 'cleaned' up 005 would sound like, would it be a more sterile piece?

I've owned 005 for a bit over three years now, still waiting to hear the sins of commission ASR measurements allude to. Based on their measurements I should be hearing a distorted tiring presentation, with small sound stage, 2D images, lacking in dynamics both micro and macro. I hear nothing of the kind, at one point owned the Okto Dac 8 stereo, I believe it had lowest SNR measured at ASR at the time, jitter right up there as well. I directly compared the two, kept the 005, sold the Okto.

In past couple months I've spent aprox $30k on streamer, lps for same, and some vinyl upgrades, I could have used those funds for virtually any dac on market yet I didn't, should speak volumes as to how I feel about this cheap crap Chinese dac😎

The one thing I never get about audio objectivists is why don't they all own the objectively best measured system. Get the best measuring equipment in every category and you objectively have the best audio system. With the relatively low priced equipment they usually measure wouldn't be that great an expense to constantly upgrade components to maintain objectively best audio system.

To answer the OP question, no, the ASR review has not changed my mind about this superb DAC. I honestly hope its reliability is as good as its performance. So far it has proven rock solid reliable!

Let's keep things in perspective. For thirty years Stereophile has measured and analyzed the measurements of tube amps by the same standards as SS amps and found them wanting-often in contrast to the listening impressions. For twenty years Stereophile has done the same with DAC's. But with DAC's the listening impressions are often over-the-top favorable irrespective of whether they measure poorly or well. What it tells me-but may not tell you-is that the reviewers who rave about the DAC's that measure "superbly" have not lived with them long enough to hear how boring/sterile/lifeless they are. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

ASR panders to wannabes who can't seem to afford nice equipment, so they desperately seek approval/validation by claiming their $500 (insert piece of equipment here) sounds just as good as a $5k (insert piece of equipment here). All because some tool measures it with a multimeter and never his ears.

Thanks, @jjss49

@carlsbad -- that I drank what Kool Aid?

Let me explain to you. If a source of information is completely erroneous, and not a public danger, it’s fine to ignore it. If a source of information contains some valuable data or argument, then it’s worth paying attention to. People on this forum pay attention to ASR, so it’s likely because it contains at least some valuable data or argument -- but they treat it as if it was completely worthless and deserving of ridicule. Wouldn’t it be more honest to eschew ad hominem attacks on ASR (the site or the creator, Amir) and simply discuss the arguments in a dispassionate way? Kool aid drinking has nothing to do with it, unless one is unwilling to do the detailed work of analyzing the arguments or data. Blind adherents drink Kool Aid and so do blind antagonists. I am neither of those. Got it, now?

ASR says it all. Done.

Never heard it so can't comment on if it has a sound or not. @audio-satisficer , only looked at the review. They show a potential problem running at full volume. May be useful information. The rest of the review makes me wonder if how it behaves is intentional, a bad unit, or bad design. No idea without another one. I can think of no reason for the jitter being bad as an intentional choice. Maybe we just get too hung up on DAC specs and most things are not audible?

Some delta-sigma designed require that the signal stays below -6.1dB of full scale.

I have not read the review, and I am new to DACs… but I usually try to keep a DAC below -6dB just to be safe… and not knowing what is inside of it.

if it is that, then I am not sure there is a problem, unless someone feels that they need to run it flat out.

I am happy for ASR to exist, because all the measurement trolls and DBT fanatics have a place to go instead of soiling up the normal audiophile forums with their nonsense like they did years ago. It has consolidated them in one place.

Amir is the high priest of their cult and like any cult leader is dishonest and an outright liar. When he loses an argument or is proven wrong he will obfuscate or use a non sequitur to move the goal posts on to something else.

A strategy that never failed me: avoid like a plague what ASR recommends. And, put in your “watch lists” for auditions what ASR bashes. It works like a charm. Every single time.

Truer words were never spoken @thyname 

definition:

"special words or expressions that are used by a particular profession or group and are difficult for others to understand"

For some reason (purely subjective) I envision a group of 20-30s old fat white males still writing code in mom’s basement who never got laid. Sorry if I offended someone by saying “fat”. Hereby defined as those who cannot see their junk looking down due to big belly 

Front page of the ASR website actually states this:

"This is the forum where we try to impress each other with how much we know about audio. Heavy use of technical jargon is required for participation." 

jar·gon¹, /ˈjärɡən/ definition:

"special words or expressions that are used by a particular profession or group and are difficult for others to understand"

-----------------------

No, not all that difficult to understand. Just not very interesting or entertaining. 

I had not read the test results on this unit, but did go to ASR after reading your post.

It seems most equipment in the several kilobuck range and higher is treated more critically on ASR, since the expectation for quality or excellence is higher at these price points. IIRC, the Chord Dave didn’t do so well over there either, despite having a loyal following and many positive reviews.

Like me, you seem to be in the “how’s it sound camp” vs the “how’s it measure camp”, so why let your enjoyment be minimized by it’s measured performance? The DA005  appears to be well appointed and with high build quality and is rated as excellent in the review. Not really what I would call a hatchet job, or an attack on a brand, like those lobbied here on a daily basis (McIntosh, Carver, Raven, Tekton or most products built in China).

If Musetec (LKS?) is really concerned about, (or dispute) measurements in posted over there, they could always post their own findings, or provide a unit for testing if ASRs results is wildly differ from their production units. 

 

thespeakerdude

76 posts

12-11-2022 at 02:43pm 

Never heard it so can't comment on if it has a sound or not. @audio-satisficer , only looked at the review. They show a potential problem running at full volume. May be useful information. The rest of the review makes me wonder if how it behaves is intentional, a bad unit, or bad design. No idea without another one. I can think of no reason for the jitter being bad as an intentional choice. Maybe we just get too hung up on DAC specs and most things are not audible?

This is extremely funny Cin!! Tell me please, what DAC do you currently own? Why do I have a feeling you will never say? Prove me wrong and I will eat crows 

I agree 100% regarding ASR getting too much airtime, it’s lack of usefulness, and the awkward cultish pile on by its forum guests.

ASR’s refusal to listen to gear while making an “objective” approval or disapproval of a unit is absurdity.

I don’t have a lot of strong opinions in this gloriously fun and rich hobby. But I do as to ASR—If anyone is system building and on a journey please be extra careful in following ASR’s recommendations. While I don’t doubt that some of the gear it recommends probably sounds good too, yet we will miss out on so much the hobby has to offer if we make wholesale rejection of the products based on its alleged objective reviews

Never heard it so can't comment on if it has a sound or not. @audio-satisficer , only looked at the review. They show a potential problem running at full volume. May be useful information. The rest of the review makes me wonder if how it behaves is intentional, a bad unit, or bad design. No idea without another one. I can think of no reason for the jitter being bad as an intentional choice. Maybe we just get too hung up on DAC specs and most things are not audible?

It's kind of amazing how much free rent space ASR takes up in people's heads. If it's such a worthless site, why talk about it at all?

agree with you 100% @hilde45 

asr = boring... nuff said

Savage @erik_squires 

All of my oscilloscopes agree with ASR, so I told them that when they get a job they can buy whatever gear they want to.

Until then, my ears tell me what I want to buy.

The ASR review came out in May and I bought the 005 in June. I had been following a few threads on the 005 for about 6 months while I was trying to decide on which Dac to purchase. So, no the ASR review didn't dissuade me from purchasing it. I valued all of the actual user comments on their experiences with it over the measurements and quirks that Amir posted. I did have the Topping D70s when the Musetec 005 arrived so, I was able to A/B them directly. The Musetec sounded better to my ears and that's all that matters. I will also comment that I am a fan of Topping gear with my Altec A7 due to the extremely low noise floor of their products. I have just done an A/B with the Topping A90 Discrete versus the Border Patrol EXT 1 and Rogue Audio RP-7 and I'm keeping the Topping. In the same system I also A/B'd the Border Patrol S10 with Dual EXS power supply units, Sophia Electric 91-01 300B, Classe Cam 200 monoblocks and Topping LA90. I'm keeping the LA90. I keep an open mind...... and ears to help me select my components.

@hilde45 ARe you saying that you drank the Koolaid?

It's kind of amazing how much free rent space ASR takes up in people's heads. If it's such a worthless site, why talk about it at all? I have a theory...

Not familiar with that piece of equipment of an ASR negative review is a badge of honor.

I refuse to read any ASR reviews.  They make money from clicks which is why they post such outrageous things.  They make more money from people that disagree with them than people that agree with them.  But they do need a few koolaid drinkers to spread the news so people will come read the BS and react.

So what did ASR find problematic with this DAC? 

+1, @westborn for your take on ASR and early impressions of Musetec 005 sound and build quality.

Not at all. I tend to look at the ASR ’review’ as I would a Popular Science magazine recommending cheap audio-visual receivers because they have more inputs and/or lights or a bigger remote control.

I bought the 005 a got it a week ago. And although it is breaking in slowly and changes quite a bit from day to day, I can already tell that is a HUGE upgrade over my previous W4S Dac2dsd. I won’t report on final impressions until after several hundred hours.

I thought it amusing that ASR concluded.. "while doing a few things right, there is a lot wrong with design of MH-DA005. They have an excellent core as far as DAC chip is concerned, but they poorly implement the companion circuits. Instead of focusing to get the basics right, focus seems to be elsewhere (battery bank and such)." The dismissive attitude and language reminded me a little of someone who would spend less than half an hour of ’measuring’ a pair of high end tube amps right out of the box, and pronouncing them undeserving of their price or reputation.

My listening so far - even at this early stage - is the exact opposite - Musetec started with an excellent core (ESS9038Pro), and beautifully implemented the power supply, the companion circuits, the boutique parts and wiring, after what was clearly much listening to each of the individual parts and their impact on the musical whole.

Just my opinion.

If you like the sound of the DAC then don't worry about a negative review or what others think.

Regarding the the review being a "hatchet job", I didn't read it that way.  There was some early nitpicking about the remote and a power-up delay, but I didn't read anything I would classify as being malicious, unjustified, or irresponsible.  Amir performed measurements on a brand new DAC using his test equipment.  He reported the results and pointed out areas where the review sample performed well (linearity and dynamics) as well as areas where it performed poorly.  He concluded that, in his opinion, a DAC in that price range should perform/measure better.  He offered to revisit if the company disagrees with his results. 

Maybe one problem is that we have been conditioned to expect that all reviews will be positive.  Even the negative reviews are often carefully scripted so as not to offend.  My problems with the "review" are that there is no mention about how it sounds, and the minor pile-on by other readers is mostly bad form.  However, just because the DAC measured poorly is not a reason to discredit the messenger.

If your ears are happy, what does Asinine Science Review have to do with that?  They’d have you think a $100 Topping DAC is superior to Musetec, Denafrips, etc. based solely on measurements.  They don’t trust their own ears so they have to resort to what measurements tell them what should sound good.  Sad.  Just sad.  Go with your own ears and reviewers you’ve come to trust and you’ll be just fine.  Numbers have a place, but they sure as hell ain’t everything.