End Game Turntable suggestions

@willy-t

Luxman PD-151 is an excellent choice coming in under your budget

👍

 

 

I would take a hard look at Dr Feickert. The Woodpecker would fall in line with your budget with an inexpensive arm. Then you can upgrade the arm as you see fit. I landed on the Volare and am very happy.  My endgame is to swap out the current arm for a Kuzma 4point 9”.  This full package is attainable in your budget. 

Some VPI’s can have two tonearms. Steve at VAS knows which models if you like VPI’s

....................................................................................

Here’s a custom case with a Technics SP-15 (3 speeds); Two arms,

 

I bought a SP15 in factory base at Harvey’s long ago, gave it to my friend, Wonderfully accurate, solid. Check SP15 specs against any other Technics including modern models, it’s one of the best.

https://vintagetechnics.audio/turntables.php

This is tangential to what the OP has posted. But because I am primarily a streamer, I decided to sell my VPI unipivot Prime Signature with Ortofon 2M Black, ADS, big custom dust cover, and Wayne’s Audio outer ring. I wanted to reduce my box count and take a little cost out of the vinyl rig, but still have it be nice. So I sold the above rig and replaced it with a Technics SL-1210G with a Soundsmith Carmen mk2. The Technics was easy to setup. Happy with the change so far.  

This one’s been listed for a while, probably receptive to an offer

 

Clever armboards (2) simply pivot for arm length.

 

Fan of Wood? I spoke to Peter, he can make a 2nd arm bracket for it.

 

Micro Seiki Two Arms

 

also listed for a while

 

 

@yogiboy Wow, new SME Model 6 tables at $5999!!! I'd be surprised if they have any left in stock.

Thanks for posting.

VPI with Uni-pivot Arm

Arm wand with cartridge simply lift off the pin of the base (VTA)

Another solution for quick change of cartridges, is any VPI with Uni-pivot Arm. Your main arm wand on the uni-pivot arm base. 

A spare arm waiting nearby. Simply disconnect the mini-din connector, lift the arm wand with cartridge off the uni-pivot. Place the spare arm with alternate cartridge on the uni-pivot, connect the mini-din connector. 

Steve has a big VPI he loves, with several arms waiting: to test/demonstrate cartridges, like the Mono one he just built for me. btw, he says new VPI are not as good as prior ones made when the father was in control. You could ask him more about that if a VPI appeals to you.

the unipivot base

 

12" uni-pivot arm wand

 

 

The set up in the link can be achieved if prudent with the SP10 Mkii Motor Unit Purchase. All seen can be achieved for approx' £2500 as a higher end of the price range costing.

This fee will allow for a refurbishment of the TT and a Chassis Recoating if desired.

There is also a much more attractive finish in Black for the Chassis if wanted to be created, a Custom Spray Paint Shop is your friend. To help control costs have a look at some of Upcoming Paint Jobs, as this will reduce costs if a Paint is selected already accounted for to be used on a larger project.

Lots of Monies left in the Budget for Arm > Cart' and a Mounting Sub Plinth System.

There is an attraction in having an input into how a TT can look and being instrumental in choices made for how it can Perform.

The SP10 Mkiii will cost more, but I and a few friends are sold on the Mkii.

I don't know of many who would reject a VGC Mkii, and would prefer the Mkiii as the alternative to satisfy their needs. 

 

I like Technics EPA-500 Base with interchangeable arms better than the VPI. I just installed one for a friend, a wonderfully made design, easy VTA adjustment

here it is with a straigt arm, fixed cartridge

 

simply loosen a screw (see ’lock’ in photo), arm slides out sideways and slip in an alternate arm wand, like this one with removable headshell.

the arms have integral connectors, no messing around with delicate wires.

you buy the arms separately

 

These fit the Technics Direct Drive units like this (another SP-15 in a Technics base) that have round armboards (interchangeable for other arms)

 

 

I am a DD fan, have a pretty nice restored SP10mk2 with FR64S etc. With that in mind ( and caveat I am the NA representative ) you may wish to know about STST. Very mature DD design made to order for you. The Motus DQ ( sans suspension ) is in your price range. Has vanquished a lot of great contenders. Did I say you get to pick the finishes ? :) 

Solypsa

 

@mijostyn 

"The job of a turntable is to spin at the proper speed, prevent any spurious vibration from getting to the tonearm and sound like NOTHING. Anything it adds to "the sound" is distortion.

The job of the tonearm is to hold the cartridge solidly in the proper orientation, move to two directions only and absorb any energy coming from the cartridge to prevent it from reflecting. It should also not have a "sound."

The job of the cartridge is to translate the physical waveform on the record into an electrical waveform. It also should not have a "sound."

It is the record that "sounds." A record playing machine should not add or subtract anything to the sound that is on the record. The design of turntables, tonearms and cartridges should be evaluated with this in mind.

A record player is a vibration measuring device. The cartridge has no way of knowing where the vibration is coming from. It will turn any vibration into an electrical signal.

The environment is loaded with vibrational energy and the turntable has to isolate the other parts of the system from all of it.

Mass will not do it.

If a turntable does not have a proper isolation suspension then it should be placed on one.

It is much cheaper if one is built into the turntable.

The Dohmann Helix is probably the epitome of a suspended turntable. The classic is the AR XA followed by the Thorens TD 125 and the Linn LP12.

SOTA was the first to hang a turntable from springs instead of sitting it on top of springs, a much more stable design. Basis, SME and Avid followed suit. 

The RP 10 is a lot of turntable for the money. It is suspended on squishy rubber feet. It has a very stiff chassis and a great tonearm.

Up from that price wise is the Sota Sapphire with a Kuzma 4 Point 9 then up the Sota line to the Cosmos.

At this point we are already above the OP's budget but continuing onwards are the Avid Acutus and the SMEs. Next is Basis then the Dohmann Helix. Both Sota and Basis tables can be had with vacuum clamping.

When a tonearm tracks over warps the groove velocity changes and causes pitch to waver which is painfully obvious and far exceeds the minimal wow and flutter most modern turntables have. Vacuum clamping is the best at flattening the record. Reflex clamping Like the SMEs, the Acutus, non vacuum Sotas and the Helix is second best.

A record weight does little to nothing. Ring clamps are a PITA to use and an accident waiting to happen.

Of the turntables I mentioned above only the Sotas use a magnetic thrust bearing which is an advantage in terms of noise and durability. It does exactly the same thing as Techdas's air bearing at a fraction of the complexity and cost."

 

Bravo!

What an informative post that was.

It's a pity that posts like yours above can't be pinned for future reference.

This is turning out to be a great discussion, thanks everyone who has contributed.

@paulgardner thanks for the suggestion - I saw the ovation at Expona in action and its stunning, but i thought it was outside my budget. If i recall correctly the were showing them with Sonus Faber speakers; i will scan used market.

@re-lar-kvothe I really like the design and features of the 1601 but really curious if there is anything lacking sound-wise- I just cant find a place to audition it. I have a vintage Kyocera PL-701 semiautomatic with auto lift, what a convenience.

The 1601 is below my budget (even with a great cart), and i am curious what i will miss compared to lets say a used HW-40 if i can get it for abt 10K. Any thoughts welcome. As i raised in my original post, I am surely not chasing the last 5%.

Lastly, @fbgbill thanks for your HW-40 thoughts. Many people raise concerns abt potential future problems if motor goes bad - any idea if VPI stocks these motors? Thanks

And I will add - choosing a turntable is perhaps going to be the hardest purchase decision i have ever made :):) way too many amazing choices....what a privilege to be living in these times....

@mijostyn THANK YOU that was an amazing response and a lot to think about. Having now looked at the Basis Signature 2500 with vacuum, i am going to have sleepless nights....any idea what they fetch in used market? Thanks

If a Vacuum Clamping of the LP is wanted as a wish list and a TT offering this as a built in design is extending beyond the desired budget. There is other options to achieve a Vacuum Clamped LP.

I have had extended use of a loaned Audio Technica AT-666.

It will Clamp and Hold Vacuum for the duration of a side of a LP.

It does take a short process to achieve the Vacuum, but this period can be used in conjunction with a put in place with a Brush or Anti Static Treatment of the LP, so should not be to much addition to a pre play ritual. 

The AT-666 when used in a comparison with my selection of Platter Mats, has proved to a worthwhile addition, but is also the one that has produced the leanest presentation out of owned Metal Mats. In hindsight, I wish I had used the AT-666 as a stacked Platter Mat assembly as well to see what else could be extract from it.

A AT-666 in VGC should cost approx' £150, I have bought a Pump for £30 and will eventually acquire the mat to add to my collection.

The Design is available from other TT Brands as well, maybe having been produced by AT and rebranded. I know this has happened with AT Tonearms.

The Link is a few years old and will answer most questions.

   

 

big fan of idlers. I have two from Woodsong Audio, but complete resto would almost certainly exceed your budget.  But the one I’ve attached from Aural Hifi might work.

@musicmatters1206  I have no idea if VPI has replacement motors for the HW-40 but they probably do. It is the most expensive part of the HW-40 I am told. FWIW I have an arm lifter on mine that works great. It is the Technics one but I cannot remember the mode. It was not expensive. 

Want DD, here’s a Technics in Gold Finish (price is oddly high)

 

You can get it in silver of course

 

 

@musicmatters1206  I have a SOTA Sapphire with an Origin Live Silver tonearm. I love it. I don't need to buy another table. If I need something better just upgrade to a a Kuzma 4 point 9. As it sits now it will take any cartridge I can throw at it up to $3k. 

 

The Sapphire and the Nova are sister tables. The difference is the Nova has a stiffer sub chassis (plinth). Both tables have been offered with their vacuum platter. Currently it is a $1225 option on the Nova ($5050). So a Nova with a vacuum platter is $6275 without a tonearm.

 

The best way to order a turntable from SOTA is the old fashioned way...over the phone. You can ask about a Sapphire with a vacuum platter. You can also pick your tonearm and cartridge.

 

I can also say SOTA'S customer service is top notch. I also got to meet Donna Bodenet the owner. She didn't want to ship my turntable.  I live less than an hour away. It was a beautiful Sunday drive.

I'm adding this post for the OP, as well as anybody whom might visit this thread seeking information at a later date. 

It does look like the range of TT's and Drive Motor Designs for the TT's has become extensive since the idea of a Used Model extended into suggestions for a Vintage Model as well.

It is known that a Vintage Model with a certain level of attention given to the servicing of the designs incorporated critical parts, such as a Platter Bearing, Motor Bearing (Idler Drive) and the Electrics can produce a TT that is a worthy contender to a Modern Design / Produced TT costing much more.

Add to the attention to servicing, additional attention for the optimisation of the Speed Control and the Vintage Model will catapult itself even further toward being a worthy competitor. It does not take too much searching to discover ancillaries are being offered and readily available, as 'Off the Shelf' or 'DIY Build',  that have the capability to substantially improve on this area of performance as well.

Both Belt, or Idler Drives are easily improved on with this approach to additional ancillaries to control speed. I have a Custom Built Speed Control Unit that works on both Idler and Belt Drive TT's. It has proved a substantial improvement on my Idler Drives. I have not experienced it on an owned Belt Drive, but have heard another version of it used on a Belt Drive in another system and am of the opinion, the TT was much improved as a result of the ancillary being added.   

The DD TT in general is already supplied with a design that will offer a very accurate speed control incorporated.

The add on ancillaries for a Belt or Idler Drive can in certain cases cost as much as a complete and functioning DD TT. This is one reason that attracts one to the DD TT as a worthwhile consideration. 

DD TT's come with a more difficult task requirement, if there is a intention to improve on the Models designed Speed Control. A certain skill level is required to understand the Model of DD TT's electronics and it is best practice to use an EE with a known history of working on these designs, the chances are going to be significantly increased to receive a optimised end product.

My SP10 Mkii has a undergone a Overhaul of Electrics and Mechanical Parts. Additionally it has a Modification carried out by a very well respect EE who specialises in these TT's. The Mod' in place has improved Speed Control on this TT when compared to the usual function.

Many Vintage TT's in use are not optimised for use. This is ultimately present as a , result of the age of the TT Model.

The risk areas relate to the Platter Bearing, especially the unknown quantity of Rotations having happened and the condition within the Bearing Housing potentially being unwanted, whilst these rotations have been and are happening.

The Platter Bearing is an important consideration, the common encounter, when being investigative of the inner of the Bearing Housing. Is the chance that  the Bearing Housing Internal and Parts that have a Mechanical Interface are Arid Dry.

Commonly the evidence to be seen, is that the Bearing Liner Bush, which will usually be produced from a Metal, is in direct contact with the Platter Spindle during rotations. Arid Dry Conditions with abrasive metal on metal operation is not optimised in any description. 

A less common encounter is where the Spindle Base has a contact with a Steel Ball that has Scribe Marks etched into the Balls surface. The Arid Dry Condition with a Spindle seated upon and and in direct contact with a damaged ball, is certainly an unwanted interface. The abrasive effects of a defaced Ball will certainly have a unwanted impact on the quietness of the bearing in operation.  Arid Dry Conditions with abrasive metal on metal operation is not optimised in any description.

The Thrust Pad in contact with the Ball, is most likely to be seen with a excessive wear, (indentation) this will increase friction, especially when the contact is Arid Dry. A worse case is when a evidence is witnessed, where the wear suggests that a Eccentric Rotation has been occurring, (this can suggest Bush Wear has occurred). The Worst case is to see evidence of Eccentric Rotation as the suggested cause of the Wear and Metal Powder (Probably Gold Colour) on the Thrust Pad (The Gold Dust is most likely dust from the Bush serving as a sacrificial part, and the dust is present as a result of abrasive contact in a Arid Dry interface.

There is today, no need to use Metal Bush Liners, there are Thermoplastics that are totally suitable for this role. Additionally there the same Thermoplastic Materials and other options, readily available to replace a Steel Ball and Thrust Pad.

The selection of replacement materials, will depend on how low the end user would like a 'coefficient of friction' to be achieved for the overall function and how fragile one would want their choice of materials to be, that are to be used within the bearing housing.

Changing the condition of Arid Dry and creating a Lubricated Bearing Internal, is quite straight forward, there are many different Viscosities for the Lubricant to consider.   Where the complication arises is the maintaining the Lubrication within the Bearing Housing, as many designs as their basic are not able to keep a Lubricant, there is a leaching that will occur from the sump local to the Thrust Pad..

Maintaining Hydrodynamic Lubrication (HL) between the parts interfacing is another challenge and it is not known which Bearing Housing are able to maintain this condition from Vintage through to the Latest Designs.

The term (HL) is a Buzz Word for Bearing Design, but maintaining the condition throughout operation over a period is not easy to prove is in place, a alternative approach would be best to cultivate a periodical revisit to the needs for lubricant. .

Cultivating a discipline to care for the regular maintenance of checking Lubrication would be an advisable practice in this matter.

The overhauling a Bearing is getting more support daily, and there are skill sets making themselves available to assist with this task.

It is not uncommon for certain Brands Models to see direct swap out replacement Bearing Housings on offer. Built using Thermoplastics at the Metal Spindle Contact Interfaces, as well as having the option to select other materials as well.

A Bearing can also have Bespoke Bushes Machined to fit the radius dimension of the actual Spindle in use and the inner wall radius dimension of the Bearing Housing .    

I have Bearing Housings using the above Swap Out Method and also have original Bearing Housings Overhauled and with New Parts Machined in Thermoplastic to  suit the radius dimensions of the parts retained and supersede the use of original metal parts.

My experience is that it is quite possible and not too costly to achieve a Vintage TT, that can hold it own extremely closely to any TT up to 10 x it overall cost.

I have put my 'go to TT' along side TT's owned by others, to which one has the retail value of £25K, and have seen the responses from the attendees at the demonstrations. At a Public Demonstration, Two Directors of a Company that produces TT's to a value of £50K, told me they felt compelled to return to my Demonstration Room and give me a appraisal, which pretty much stated how impressed they were, and it reminded them of listening to their customers set ups with the most expensive systems.

SP10 Mkii's, most recently SP10 Mkii Kaneta and the SP10 R are now the main TT's within my HiFi Group. Prior to this the SME 20/12 with SME V was the Groups revered TT to aspire to.

The Groups SME owner has even moved on, originally to a Garrard 401 and now with a Scheu Analogue TT, that has undergone a few mod's and is reported by the HiFi Group as an extremely good TT and very affordable to achieve.

I have supplied a costing figure earlier that is realistic if the Donor TT is purchased with a prudent approach. 

Note: This post is not to promote the SP10, it is to make it known, a Vintage TT of any Drive Type, will need to be thought about with a few extra considerations and associated costs, if wanting the chosen model to be optimised for function.   

Mikey Fremer addressed the motor used in the HW40 in his review with very positive commentary.  It is an very high grade motor.  I know that Matt made a significant investment in inventory of motors to bring the price down on the product.  VPI has a track record that is unsurpassed in the industry for providing support for their products.  For example, this year I was able to purchase needed parts for my HW17 RCM that is 35 years old.  I have newer products from much bigger companies from Japan and Switzerland and the USA that are just decorations because parts are unobtainable. It makes me laugh when I read some of the posts on the web saying nasty things about companies like VPI, or McIntosh, or Conrad Johnson all of which support every product they ever manufactured.  Of course things could change, but the foot tracks in the sand are clear. 

I know Sota and SME and Klipsch and others also have a reputation for long term, excellent after sales support.  It might be fun and useful for us to put our collective experience together and make a list of companies that we have knowledge of who have a good track record of support for their products and their customers.  Ortofon comes to mind for me too, now that I think of it.

 

mdalton

I inherited a Thorens TD124 with an SME arm. Wonderful!

Tremendous quality, that heavy platter, in incredibly close tolerances, best most coherent bass I ever got out of a TT.

Design, moving parts below the deck are easy to understand, clean, lubricate, keep in top shape., 

My problem is my springy wood floors, so I sadly had to move on. The bearing is susceptible to vertical motion, so I traded it, moved to my current setup, also in a firmer location. Perhaps the Thorens bearing would be less problematic there. 

My end game table is a VPI Prime 21. It’s my second VPI.

I’m running a Soundsmith cart on it.

I would recommend it, or the Prime Sig with the gimbal arm.

Technics SP10 mk3 will usually cost a great deal more than a mk2 and is more difficult to find. If cost is an object, certainly the mk2 is fine. In my own experience the Denon DP80 is a bit better than the mk2 in stock form. I found the OEM mk2 in a slate plinth to have a trace “gray” coloration compared to the DP80 also in a slate plinth. But the SP10 mk3 is a world class turntable even by modern standards, in my opinion. I hasten to add that my mk3 was purchased NOS, now resides in a slate and solid cherrywood plinth, was Krebs modified, runs on JP Jones discrete chip installed and calibrated by JP. Just to say that in my experience there is more than a casual difference between a mk2 and mk3.

If you are after a end game high mass TT, then hard to go past a Nottingham Analogue Dais TT and Wave Mechanic PS with either their 10" or 12" Anna arms. Bullet proof designs that look and sound great with great customer support. 

An uncommon brand with a great lineage is Nottingham Analogue. Their Dais design was one of the last by the late great Tom Fletcher. Best to buy from the UK. Price without tax is in your range.

I have the predecessor Mentor with a custom plinth and Dais bearing, motor and power supply. It doesn’t perform to the level of my DIY all air bearing (thrust AND radial air) table, but it’s no disgrace in that company. Add a Terminator air tonearm (if available) and you have a superb piece that will last you until you have a six figure itch.

One quirk with the Dais: you have to start it rotating by hand. Fletcher’s great insight was to use a precision low power motor, which was only just strong enough to rotate the platter against bearing friction. That leaves very little energy to turn into noise. And it works out that way in practice - the background is astonishingly black.

 

Dear  @musicmatters1206  : " Basis Signature 2500 with vacuum, i am going to have sleepless nights....  "

 

Well that unit set you back over 15K: for what?

 

You need a TT with speed stability mated with an excellent tonearm and these are part characteristics of the RP-10 that you can add the Basis reflex clamp and you are done rith there.

 

Put your money where it mattters after the RP-10:  A Lyra cartridge/VDH low output, Ortofon, MSL, etc, etc and a way better phono stage as  this " humble " unit by PS Audio that competes even aginst the very expensive $$$$  Swiss CH units. Please read the review at the Atkinson measurements that no one Zestos can even dream but that helps a lot for you can have a very high resolution and heavy quality performance levels in the sounds reproduction at your room/system:

 

PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamplifier Page 2 | Stereophile.com

 

PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

It's your money and your system but don't waste your time and money for " expensive " audio products. Price tag means nothing for any one. 

A fine tunned room/system will sounds a lot better than a maga$$$$$$$ systems where money can't " fine tuning " job no matters what, yes you have to learn through the time that " fine tunning " but first step yo do it is that your system links have the " hidden capacities " to do it and the RP and PS Audio have it.

 

R.

 

 

@musicmatters1206 IMHO...there is a tremendous amount of great info here. As far as the 1601 goes I am extremely happy. I agree with all of the wonderful design concepts from the point of what they contribute to the ultimate sound of the vinyl. However, I do not believe mechanical design can make a bad pressing/recording/mix sound significantly better. I believe the most important piece to the puzzle is the cartridge. With that said, would I hang a $10K cartridge from the 1601? Likely not. However, when the stylus on my Ortofon wears out I will certainly look to spending $3-$5K on one to use on it. Many don't think a $4K TT is worthy of a $4K cartridge. In the case of the 1601 I disagree. I believe isolation and proper set up will allow the 1601 to perform extremely well with any $200 to $5K cartridge installed. At least as well as the cartridge allows.

Definitely listen to the Rega Planar 10 but with the top of the line Aphelion cartridge and not the Apheta which I found somewhat harsh and unforgiving of less than perfect recordings. When I tested the Planar 10 and Planar 8 I ended up going for the 8 with the Ania pro cartridge which has a spectacularly refined and "together" presentation. Since both turntables run from an outboard power source one assumes there should not be a problem changing voltages (but check this).

Questions such as this inevitably result in a sea of recommendations and there’s no value in me just adding to the list. But here’s something important, imo:

musicmatters1206

... i am sure they sound good but i have this bias for mass that i will need to overcome ...

I would not be so quick to overcome your bias here. I have found that there tends to be a difference in sound between high mass and lower mass designs, so it’s pretty natural to develop a preference for one over the other, depending on your taste.

OK, what appeals to you visually?

Still want to get DD, that's my choice, best if it is quartz locked if you do.

here is a beauty, belt drive, I don't know anything about it, except Micro Seiki makes great quality stuff, often innovative

 

in a thread on Audiogon the L version allows long tonearms.

Pick your own tonearm, with separate advice can be a good thing, and you may want to change to a different tonearm in the future.

manual from vinyl engine

file:///C:/Users/ellio/Downloads/ve_microseiki_bl111.pdf

 

 

see the last post there.

"Many people raise concerns abt potential future problems if motor goes bad - any idea if VPI stocks these motors?"

I wouldn't be concerned about future motor problems. Even in the event something goes wrong, VPI historically has been solid with product support-even with MW at the helm.

My personal experiences have been positive. 

VPI's DD's have been out long enough to read about iffy motor or other problems. I haven't come across anything in mags/forums.

Not only what Tablejockey says but also the motor of any TT is usually its most reliable component and is the last thing I would worry about if purchasing an expensive well made new TT.  Proper lubrication is all you need worry about, every few years.

A brand not that popular here yet in NA is Acoustic Solid out of Germany. they have been around for over a decade now and build tables that are very well made. I went from a VPI prime 21 to one of Acoustic solids tables, actually less money then the VPI and I have to say its better made and sounds as good if not better. may want to do a google search and have a look. 

I was disappointed with the prime 21 it had too many issues from the factory (arm wand not straight, lift not working and motor issues)  the workmanship was not up to the standard I'd expect for the money spent. Much happier with the Accost Solid table so much better made for the money IMO.  

OP,

I think you have a great question. Given the high quality of your other equipment, I think you are correct in really giving it some thought. 
 

Are you at all drawn to traditional high end? Sota and Linn can offer contemporary performance with tradition. Alternatively, you can go more contemporary. Then there is sprung vs massive tables  that tend to have a characteristic sound. Also, given the quality of your other components… I am not sure your budget is a bit small. If you really want a spectacular table, I would recommend something in the $10K range. Sorry, I’ll have to revisit your speakers. 
 

Anyway, your thoughts on your inclinations? 

+1 @lewm regarding SP10 MK3.

Mine was in 99% new condition, chip upgraded and serviced by JP, resides in a panzerholz plinth, and I can’t say I’ve hear it bettered. 

I am surprised no one here mentions two tonearm TTs.

glennewdick

Acoustic Solids Video of their production is impressive.

I already posted this two arm version with minimalist look

 

many acoustic models are listed on hifishark

 

looking at their designs, it is possible a second arm could be added to some models, now or the future.

5:43 into the video- a polished turntable is already a little much, but "bedazzled" AND polished? OUCH!

 

 

@au_lait It is great to see a positive appraisal from an experienced TT user about the impact Panzerholz has made on a TT they have a familiarity with.

I am regularly being supplied accounts that are very similar to the account you are sharing.

I am a advocate of P'holz with the same passion I have for using PC Triple C Wire, as a Internal Wand Wire in a Tonearm and any other easier to achieve interfaces within a System. Either one of these materials are able to change a perception and create a very positive appraisal.

As for the P'holz, I have shared regularly the benefits I have encountered through the usage of it, and have been an encourager to others to use it.

When adopted as a material, the responses received back are as per your own, where I am receiving a very positive appraisal and there is a commitment to the material as the outcome.

One individual I purchased P'holz for, has become so impressed they are not only producing Plinths and further using it as a Sub Plinth.

They have now adopted my requests that have been presented on a regular occasion and produced a TT Chassis from P'holz.

Along with this venture, they are Pioneers using their CNC Skills to produce a host of parts they believed would benefit from being exchanged to P'holz.

I have been demonstrated some of this fledgling work and can assure that there is a difference for the better, cleaner better shaping of Vocals and Notes is a definite   perception. There is no returning to Metal or Plastic Parts that is a asurity, just as a adopter of this material to being used as a Plinth is very rarely discovered to have not wanted to maintain the material. I only know of one person who has used it not as 'P'holz Only',  but used it as a composite. They preferred this sonic for a period of time. When comparing the composite to a 'P'holz Only' at a later date, they chose the P'holz only as their preferred material for the detail retrieval and turned the composite into a 'P'holz Only' as well. 

I am in communication with others around the Globe, and some have now adopted the ideas to use this in place of a Mass Support Structure as a Plinth for a TT.

What was not expected was when I witnessed Idler Drive Owners. who were die hard in their favouritism for a Mass Plinth. when having experienced a Densified Wood, changed their philosophies and are not with a Plinth in a P'holz or Permali.  

Again the reports from those adopting to P'holz with a DD TT are quite something and the Comparison Measurements being shown are quite informative, especially the 'db' comparisons being substantially improved when compared to a Mass Plinth Design.  

I was in contact with an individual in Mainland Europe who was an advocate of Wood Tonearm Wands. They adopted P'holz and were extremely impressed by the material. They have even sought out other Densified Wood, where there are increased Laminations than the 25 per 25mm. Pico Wood comes to mind. As a result of this very high appraisal, I have offered Densified Wood 'off cuts' to other users of wood wands that I know off.

With the access to a CNC and Skilled user, I am setting aside a P'holz Board for another investigative venture.

I have pretty much decided I don't want to do too much more with the Sony TTS 8000, there are a few things that make it a hard TT, to promote to others as a TT to attempt to do additional work with.

I am now to use a one of my owned Denon DP-80's as a Donor Model.

This is hopefully going to end up with having the original Chassis Produced from P'holz as a replacement.

In my assessment, due to the Magnetic Strip on the Platter much of the 'under the hood' parts will need to be maintained on the New Chassis. This could be changed as I am yet to have my friend EE who specialises in DD TT's assess the potential for a change to the design and offer further improvements.

When the EE gets into the Nitty Gritty, the Speed Control will certainly be assessed to see where an improvement can be added.

The EE is also a adept engineer and machinist, with this TT, the Bearing assembly will be checked to see if it can contain a Low Viscosity Oil, and a Bearing Housing will be produced that will contain such an oil without a concern for a leach out. This was done for the TTS 8000 to a very successful outcome.

The Bearing will also be reconstructed using New Parts that will be a design with a  Low Coefficient of Friction.

The Platter on this Model lends itself to works being undertaken that have had a great effect on the performance of a DD TT.

The DP -80 Platter, is a Two Piece Assembly where a Top Plate is removable.  I have a Phosphor Bronze Part as a direct replacement for the Original Top Plate.

The intention is also to produce a Phosphor Bronze / 20mm Delrin Top Plate and a Delrin Only Top Plate possibly close to a 40mm Thickness, it might get done in two 20mm's pieces to assess the effects of the mass of the material used at this location. 

I know for sure there are going to be a very noticeable differences to the performance of the Original DP-80, but I have a original one reserved for the A/B Comparisons.

It will also be off interest to see how the original might change in its performance with the options for an increased amount of designs to be used as an exchange part as the Top Plate on the Platter. 

As seen with other TT's having adopted the used of P'holz.

The use of P'holz with the DP-80, will in my view be the Key to the door, to allow all other changes added to be optimised for their impact on the performance.   

Dear @au_lait : Well you are a fan of Technics even in your R2R unit and you like the long tonearms. I like and have first han experiences with your Pallete and as you I own ADS speakers in my case the L-2030 modified by me.Yes, the MK3 is hard to beat maybe the lewm that has a different plynth material could or sounds different.

Plynth material for vinatge top TT seems to me that with blend of material and very good internal damping could be the solution but yours looks beautiful.

In the new Technics SP10 they choosed not wood and the SAT one neither or the Air Force.

Anyway, I really like your MK3 " presentation ".

R.

 

If you're interested in Basis Audio, which it seems you are, I highly recommend the 2500 with the vector tonearm. That said, this option from basis is worth exploring

The debut exceeds the performance of the 2500. It comes with their best tonearm, which is as good a tonearm as one can buy and works best with Basis turntables.

 

Good luck in your search. Btw, the dynavector xv1s is excellent with the Basis.

I couldn’t agree more on the recommendation for basis tables and vector 4 tonearm.  
 

The debut above Looks like a good deal. I’ve had two basis tables I’m currently using the 2200 signature and can’t imagine a better presentation.

Panzerholz is excellent for sure, but it is also very dense. Thus I see panzerholz as a kind of mass damping, in the same category as any other materials used to the same end. Albeit panzerholz may be the best or one of the best choices. PH for a tonearm wand is also an interesting idea but such a wand will inevitably have a high effective mass, due to the density. Reed offer PH as an option. I believe it’s their highest mass choice.

safebelayer looks like you are trying to sell your Basis table here on the Agon forums which is against policy. You should probably post your ad in the market place on Agon

Densified Wood has a very different measurement to nearly all materials typically used as a Plinth.

From knowledge gathered there are only a few substances that are close in measurement to damping factor measured in a Densified Wood and none of these will be referred to as Typical Material seen in use.

Densified Wood also has a quite different frequency to other materials and it is this combined with the Damping Factor that places it where it is with desirable measurements, and seen ideal to adopt the role of a Plinth, and is becoming used for other roles as well.

Panzerholz, was one of the materials promoted in the earliest days by those who were using science to prove the value of moving away from a Mass Plinth.

Possibly due to the Brand being readily available in Mainland Europe and for quite a period of time in the UK, it is a Densified Wood that has gathered a popular use with those expressing an interest in this side of the Science and available Technology to support it.

It has to be experienced in use, there is not easy ways to describe how it use, a whole new insight into how a recording can sound will manifest.

Combine this with PC Tripe C Wire as Upstream Signal Wire in a Analogue Chain and there is a tremendous amount of betterment on offer.

I really do hope a Cart' is produced with this wire as a Coil Wire in the not too distant, that would make not just one person happy.        

 

Thanks to everyone so far for such an informative conversation. I think this will be useful to a lot of others in my situation. I will soon do a summary post on ffindings so far to make it easy for a new reader of the thread.

@ghdprentice very valid question. TBH I could stretch the budget to 10K or thereabout if there would be a material benefit. What would be your suggestions? As for your point on associated equipment - yes, I have a material upgrade coming up on speakers, in the ~30K range, but that will be whole another adventure (on my list are ATC SCM 100ASLT, Magico S5 Mk II, potentially Legacy Aries II). In short, I need to choose a table keeping in mind future upgrades....