End Game Turntable suggestions

Stick with the BEST. The Thorens TD 1601 is my End Game TT. I'm 72, it's the only way to play.

@mijostyn thanks for the good advice, I can see how the inferior cartridge will just gather dust. I don't play 78's. Much appreciated.

@pindac thanks for pointing me to the OL Sovereign, I need to check about service issues that seem to have been talked about here. But the Sovereign/Illustrious combo is appealing.

I own both a VPI 19-4 for 78s and a VPI TNT VI w/modified SME IV arm.   I would recommend a VPI turntable; however, the TNT has awful footers (now resting on a Townshend Seismic Sink-maybe a Townshend platform in the future).  Make certain that the VPI you buy has either good anti-vibration footers or be prepared to spend a little more for vibration isolation (like the reasonably priced Townshend platform). 

Several friends own the Scout+ and Aries+ using Dynavector cartridges and get great sound.  They also state that the 20X2 H is the best all-rounder because it plays all LPs well.  One has the latest karat D and another the XX2.  Neither are all rounders like the 20X2.  I decided not to spend $3-4K on a replacement for my Benz Ruby3 and purchased the Dynavector 20X2 L (better highs/resolution).  Wow, a bargain and fantastic into a standard 100 ohm loading.  It works into my EAR 864, EAR 324 and as stepped up into my Allesso SUT.  That's my recommendation (I've gone hi-end with those components at a low cost-the EAR 864 has great NOS tubes, Stillpoint UltraSS footers and a Synergistic Research blue fuse with superb cabling-all necessary to elevate the pre-amp to high end status).  

As for a Pz plinth, it depends where the vibration happens. I use an air thrust bushing, that's an air cushion in all 3 dimensions, so my platter bearing noise is literally nil. So I don't need Pz for a platter board. Instead, I need rigidity and speed of sound to connect the bushing to the tonearm.

But my motor does produce vibration, so I have a heavy Pz slab to anchor the motor, and then isolation to isolate that from the main board, also Pz, which supports everything. This is unlike some who don't bother to engineer the interface between motor and platter - but ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.

Anyhow, Pz for motor board and Pz for the main board connecting the motor and platter boards. Works for me. YMMV

Interesting the air cushion bearing being referred to.

During the past 18 Months I have shared a few emails with an individual about works being undertaken on a Vintage TT, to improve on the OEM Performance.

Today at this end and their end similar things have evolved for the design.

A Bearing design being produced is to be a complete rethink of the original, and a step quite different to some of the email exchanges.

The design is now based on a Air Film as a separator at the interfaces between parts on the Bearing Housing.

I believe this new direction is now in practice, as my own and this individuals thoughts has been that a Hydrodynamic Lubrication is a challenge and will be difficult to maintain.

This individual also makes there own platters for the TT model, as an addition to this there is also to be a Mag Suspension produced in conjunction with the New Bearing Design.

Densified Wood is now adopted by this individual and they are giving it a High Appraisal as a Plinth material in relation to other materials used for a Plinth with recognised and valued damping properties.

Once you have experienced frictionless bearings in all dimensions, everything else sounds like a bad compromise. Air is the easiest way to do this, but you can do mag lev for thrust and air for lateral. It works just as well IME.

@musicmatters1206
If you like the look of the VPI Avenger, I purchased one used with rim drive and 2 VPI arms for $8.0k in 2019, so you may be able to find and afford.

VPI seems to be a safe high value high mass turntable company.  Their turntables are commonly used at audio shows, the company has a long track record in reliability and good service, and the company will likely be in business for a few decades as the company was taken over by the son Matt who has started a young family (financially handcuffed?).  

At 8k you can get an STST Motus table. Kills an Avenger. Kills most tables until you start spending double. 

Or rebuilt Garrard 301/401. If you're talking endgame, these are better long term choices.

@musicmatters1206 The Thread has been about your inquiry for suggestions to acquire an End Game TT.

In response to this, there are Options made known in relation to your budget, and around TT's proposed on your early days Shortlist.

The Thread has also gone a little of the usual path as there has been the suggestion of a Used or New Model, with the used option extending to the Vintage TT as a option.

What matters in a choice to be made is how the aesthetic stimulates and is welcomed into the home as a visualised item. 

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' so with this in mind, your eyes, your attraction to beauty. You've already revealed a Magpie Tendency and get drawn to a Shiny Blingy Item.  

What has also been made known is how a certain material or design aspect can leave a very very good impression when experienced. To the point that any previous Materials or Design are no longer wanted to be returned to.

As for materials used there is an aesthetic to be worked around and this might not be wanted to be overcome.

As for the Design @terry9 has made it known that a Bearing Design now in use, has proven to them that it is functioning in a manner that makes it much more attractive to have than older used designs.

There is a journey to discover a TT that is to ones satisfaction, I myself am on this Journey, I have my End Game TT, and am using it as a Model to bring it to a design that will be quite a tool for a LP Replay.

Servicing, Addressing Speed Control, Mounting of the TT ( ongoing ), Bearing Design ( Ongoing ), Platter Design ( Ongoing ).

Each of the Ongoing Investigations are able to take the TT to another level of performance.

With that in mind, and the knowledge that you have significantly expended on your Vinyl Collection. A similar curiosity and enthusiasm may develop for the Mechanical and Electrical Interfaces within yourself, where there becomes a interest in discovering where there are options available to eek out the betterment of the Set Up.

Some of this can be addressed prior to making a purchase, i.e, Speed Stability Platter Material, Bearing Design, Structural Materials.

There is no rush to make a Purchase, and having taken time to have studied and develop an improved knowledge of what makes a Mechanical and Electrical Device function as a Standout Performer is a worthwhile undertaking, especially one that will have a sizeable cost and will have a significance of importance attached to it as a Tool to be used.   

@dhcod thanks for suggesting STST, the second one here; the technology appears quite novel. Do you mean STST Motus II DQ, or the original Motus? Also can you share your personal experience, as well as what cartridge you are using? This is going to be in my shortlist as its DD, reviews are strong, offers customization options, and has really great classic look. Thanks again.

My info is second hand as I know someone who has a Motus II DQ and he's a super high end guy and could afford a way more expensive table if he wanted. He's used heavy arms with SPUs and a Schröder arm as well. If you go to whatsbestforum.com and search STST you see posts/photos from a lot of happy owners and you can ask questions!

I do not follow the forum member 'Shakti' on Whatsbestforum, but I have followed their reported on experiences and communicated directly about these on more than a few occasions over the past years through other points of contact.

Where I have directly experienced some of the experiences reported on, I am happy state the a 'Shakti' report is with a very accurate commentary and description.

There are very very few that have experiences under their belt as Shakti has and the communication with Industry Leaders in Vinyl Replay as he has.

Shakti is now in possession of a Motus from November 2022 and the reports to be found on the performance and comparative descriptions are IMO, worthy of taking on board.     

The one that was given to me the most when I asked this question was the SOTA Sapphire VI.  I went that route based on an overwhelming about of recommendations and the fact they were local to me.   But. have a beautiful end game turntable now.  

Thanks again to everyone for your contributions. For the benefit of others in similar situation I wanted to share my shortlist - it has changed from my initial position thanks to all the advice and suggestions, and shows the value of this forum.

In deciding the shortlist i wanted to stay true to the three principles (a) simplicity (b) staying close to budget and (c) visual appeal (not bling, as some may have interpreted).

Despite very tempting restored vintage options (quality, VFM, nostalgia, romance etc), I decided to go with contemporary. I think there are excellent options in the new/used current models market, albeit at a premium, with set it and forget it possibility. I don't to tweak and experiment, i just want to enjoy music on a reasonably great setup.

For now here are the final four in no particular order, i will try to audition what i can:

1. Rega P10 (i was really against it in the beginning) $6400

2. Dr Feikert Volare with Origin Live arm - $4000, allowing for a $2K+ cartridge

3. Thorens TD 1601 - $4000, available for less on preowned market. Leaves a lot of room for a very good cartridge, and i like the semi automatic function

4. Acoustic Solid Black Wood MPX - $5000, high mass classic design

The options I cannot currently reach owing to budget limitations (but would otherwise be my top choices)

1. VPI HW 40 DD

2. STST Motus II DQ (direct drive with semiautomatic feature)

3. Technics SP10

4. SME

Any thoughts on this welcome. Thanks all

I think the Thorens or the Rega with the best cartridge you can afford is the way to go. Saving $2400 on the Thorens adds that much to the cartridge kitty. If you can get into something like the Ortofon Windfeld Ti or the Lyra Kleos you would be living high off the hog. 

As for your dream Turntable the suspended Motus or SME are handily better than the others. The Sota Cosmos Vacuum outperforms all of them. It has a magnetic thrust bearing, a state of the art drive system, a proper suspension, vacuum clamping and a really great dust cover that can and should be used during play. If you want fancy looking the Basis Inspiration is the way to go. It will cost you three times as much as the Sota for very similar performance. David Fletcher and AJ Conte were big friends. They were both engineers who loved audio. 

@mijostyn in your view it makes sense to pair a 4K TT (Thorens 1601) with a 5K cartridge? Many pundits seem to say that if the table isn't super high end, you cant benefit from this level of cart. Very curious, I am coming from an Ortofon Bronze MM so not familiar with super highend in the cart space....

(Thorens 1601) with a 5K cartridge? Many pundits seem to say that if the table isn't super high end, you cant benefit from this level of cart."

Other than the Rega in you final four lineup, consider the Audio Technica ART line for LOMC. Plenty of praise in reviews/forums. Maybe a "Best" in performance/price.

ART Series - Line Series - Cartridges | Audio-Technica

If you go Rega P10 use Apheta/Aphelion MC to keep with the Rega philosophy of minimal fuss with setup/adjustment.

You'll likely be satisfied with any of your choices. I'd probably go with the no fuss P10 and call it a day. 

Happy listening with your final pick. Always fun to have a new addition to the setup.

@musicmatters1206 , It all depends on the design of the turntable. Forget about price. There are many super expensive tables that are not designed as well as the Thorens  or the RP10 for that matter. It is really not that expensive to make a decent turntable or tonearm. Once these meet a certain level of performance it is all about the cartridge. Over the past year I have studied many cartridges under high magnification. It became obvious that the more expensive cartridges have better styluses and are constructed more carefully. I have absolutely no doubt that you are better off putting the money in the cartridge. The Ortofon Windfeld Ti or the Lyra Kleos will handily outperform a Hana whatever in either turntable.

Thanks a lot. Lyra Kleos looks closer to possibility budget-wise. Interesting read on Lyra series.

@tablejockey thanks for the AT recommendation. I just missed a like-new P10 right here in NJ on the mart, which was listed for 5K. That said, i do really value the automatic lift in Thorens - knowing myself, it will definitely elongate the life of the cartridge. I just feel saving nearly $2500 (new vs new or used vs used) will allow for a really good cartridge, overall a better combo....

" I just missed a like-new P10 right here in NJ on the mart, which was listed for 5K."

Ouch! I hate seeing those kinds of deals AFTER the fact. 

I get it- auto lift of the Thorens. Lyra or ART 20=nice setup. 

I still think you will end up with an RP-10.  I have not heard the Aphelian 3, but the P-10 with the Apheta 3 is impressive (and hits your budget with no room to spare).

End-game. What does it mean? It is different for every individual. With wine, there is a saying that "all roads lead to Burgundy". With audio, there is no such consensus or even a similarly evocative saying, something that raises a knowing smile among the cognoscenti. I have my own idea as to what an end-game turntable, arm and cartridge combination is but there are at least 50 and likely more legitimate turntable and arm combinations alone, forgetting the cartridge choice. The thing that has to put a smile on any vinyl-fan's face is how healthy the turntable market is presently. 

FWlittleIW, the Thorens TD124 and Garrard 301 with your choice of a Reed arm are my idea of an "end game" table. As durable as cockroaches, as enduring as Sophia Loren. 

Acoustic Signature Tornado Neo turntable comes with a 15 year warranty. The best in the business!

As STST is less well known in the American market, it bears mentioning that the Motus tables are a very mature product. Stefan has been honing this design for many years...

( disclosure: Solypsa represents STST )

@musicmatters1206 I’m late to the game but looking at your shortlist, those are all quite different tables. I wonder if settling on the type first, then putting together a shortlist of tables of the same type, wouldn’t be a better way to go?

I didn’t check all the posts but has anyone brought up TW Acustic’s former entry-level model, the Raven One? I’ve had one for about five years, paired with a Graham Phantom arm and Kiseki Purple Heart. In the used market, you could easily put together an excellent table for under $8K. TW Acustic’s North American distributor, Jeff Catalano at High Water Sound, is great to deal with, which is an added bonus. He happily has answered questions I’ve had even though I bought a used table, not a new one. The Raven One is a very nice turntable.

+1 

I have a Feickert Volare, a SOTA Star III (vintage) as well as a TW Acustic Raven.

All are better than any Rega IMO.

Have no experience with Acoustic Solid.

The TW is on another level above the others I own, as it should be as it costs 2X to 4X as much.  They are hard to find on the used market, especially within the stated price range.

The Volare has the smallest footprint of my tables (if that is important) but is very well built and finished.  At less than $5K (without cartridge) paired with my Audiomods Series 6 arm, it sounds great.

Biggest problem for you is hearing, seeing and touching all your contenders.  Depending on where you live, there may be no local dealer.

Hope this helps.

Good luck!

+ 1 on TW Acustic. I have a Raven AC for more than 15 years now.
First : the sound fits my tastes, second : it is built like a tank, third you can install up to 4 tonearm, fourth : you can upgrade the initial model to put it close to the Black Night. 
Durind these years I replaced the one motor with the 3 motors in a round shape, replaced also the original PSU with the battery one, and lastly replaced the platter with the 20kg « black night ». Each of these changes were useful and put the table up a notch or 2. 
Now I think the TT is hard to beat. 

OP,

I look forward to hearing your decision.

I commented earlier, but not on what I did. I had a VPI that I loved for over 20 years.

I retired, and realized I had an opportunity to upgrade… as I was upgrading the rest of my system. I did the kind of survey you are. While I looked and compared contemporary turntables and higher end VPIs. I got really interested in Linn… for its simplicity, history and contemporary performance. The more I read and researched the more I realized that contemporary performance was available with a really attractive, elegant, small footprint turntable with a wonderful history and upgradabilty.

I have really enjoyed it. I enjoyed its performance so much, I was drawn to upgrade sub-component after sub-component. While I started at the mid-level turntable… I upgraded it to very close to the top level. It has been a constant source of enjoyment over the last three years.

This is not a pitch for Linn. But for the enjoyment of reaching for your dreams. For experiencing really top level performance in something you really love. It doesn’t happen often. Enjoy.

@willy-t 👍 +1

@ghdprentice thanks for your post, everything you have said so far has been very thoughtful.

Regarding you first and second comments (min budget of abt 10K to match my remaining components "level", and "speakers first" principle: I can share my position. Ultimately my decisions are dictated by currently available budget, and that "might" mean a winding road to an optimal state. Keeping this in mind:

a. I decided to stay below 10K for table+arm+cartridge

c. I hear your point about first buying speakers. The speaker upgrade is going to be a very significant outlay, which simply has to wait until retirement. But i can't wait till then to see how far i can get with analog. Also, after 21 years, not a day passes that I do not admire my current speakers for what they can do (NHT 3.3s). This is why everything else in my system has been upgraded multiple times, but the speakers have been a constant. Eventually when I buy new speakers (owing to age, asthetics and the desire for new), I may have to re-jig some of my components somewhat, maybe or maybe not.

Back to the turntable - I did a lot of research and got lots of advice from this forum. In the end I am buying a Thorens TD-1601, with a high end cart (have not decided between Lyra Kleos and Soundsmith xxxx). That will come to about 8K. The new Thorens has the time tested principles, similar in design to the Linn, and from what I undertsand, will stand up well to a high end cartridge. I like the simplicity, timeless aesthetics, the auto arm lift and the impeccable build quality. I really did not want to deal with a complex, spherical/cylindrical/industrial 100lb behemoth offering multiple arm options, and requiring a giant stand. And at least for now, I wanted a set it and forget it setup so i could use my limited time to listen, not tinker. That may change in retirement!

Most reviewers suggest  it outperforms the 160/125 MkII, and is similar to Linn, so i feel its worth trying out - if it doesnt meet expectation, it will be a small loss to take, and go in a different direction.

If budget was not a concern, staying true to the principles above, I would have gone for VPI HW-40 DD or STST Domus DQ II - but with cartridge those will just bust bu budget. I really feel Acoustic Solid MPX could be a good choice, but again it throws off my current budget....

Thanks all once again for all the suggestions and advice. If anyone has a view on $4K range cartridges - particularly Soundsmith because of low-cost rebuild - will appreciate any suggestions.

Fellow A'goners, three months have passed and I wanted to share a quick update on the outcomes of my analog system. I ended up buying a Lyra Kleos to go with the Thorens TD 1601. I stayed with my existing phono pre (Zesto Andros II). Rest of the system remains unchanged.

Until now i believed analog was good; but this upgrade has been incredible - it simply sounds much better than my digital front end (Lumin T2). I am just at a loss as to what more i can gain from spending thousands more on a TT. I was willing to spend more - several members here gave me the confidence to pair a 4K cart with a 4K table and expect great outcomes - they were right, the nest result for me has been outstanding. 

Hopefully this is useful to others in the same boat. I am listening to Patricia Barber as I type this, and its just sublime....

Well done. Glad it worked out. My endgame has been a tricked out rebuilt Garrard 401. 

Fantastic. Excellent choices on table and cart.  Enjoy!

Congratulations. Sounds like you made a great upgrade. Pooh, of course now you must now upgrade your streaming to match your vinyl system. 
 

I am happily at parody between the two… thinking of an upgrade to my turntable. 

Kudos!