End Game Turntable suggestions

@glennewdick thank you for your recommendation of acoustic-solid. Everything I have read so far seems to indicate this is a quality manufacturer with real world prices. I actually wrote their NA rep in Ontario earlier today to get more info. Someone asked me earlier my visual preference, I think acoustic-solid....i am smitten. Just look at this thing:

Whatever you decide, consider www.upscaleaudio.com .  I bought my Marantz TT-15S1 from them.  They set It up properly, mark the settings, send pictures and once you unbox It and assemble per their directions, you have a properly set up turnable and are ready to go. 

As of December 27th here is a summary of this threads. Apologies for many omissions here, as there are so very many great suggestions. Overall I can break down recommendations across 4 categories and my take on each so far.

1. New TTs roughly in the 5-8K range (table + arm): Rega RP10, Technics SL-1200, several VPIs, Acoustic-Solid(several choices), Dr Feikert, SME Model 6, SOTA, Thorens TD-1601, Nottingham Aanlogue. Based on my needs / preferences, shortlist in this category are Acoustic-Solid, Thorens TD-1601, I am also keeping Origin Live Sovereign, which is not very well known in US, but seems like an incredible table and arm combo. I know Rega is hugely recommended, but i consider this purchase the centerpiece of my system and would go for a high mass design with room presence.
2. Used TTs in budget - some excellent recommendations from Basis (debut), SOTA, SME. In this category I am particularly drawn to Basis.  The SOTA looks kind of don’t work for me unfortunately.
3. Vintage TTs - Excellent recommendations around the obvious - Garrard, Thorens TD 124, Technics SP 10 variations, and I understand with the right amount of effort a well curated unit can easily surpass uber high end modern tables. While incredibly appealing, I am not sure I can go that route given the advanced level of knowledge and effort required. Practically speaking, I am willing to compromise the last mile quality and also willing to pay a bit more for a set it and forget it solution - and enjoy the limited time i have enjoying the music. If my understanding is wrong, anyone is welcome to please correct me. If there was a turnkey solution provider - who sources the base unit, does all the upgrades and sells as a final product, that can be a feasible alternative. I believe we are fortunate consumers with so many incredible choices today that one can easily achieve superb results with a lot less effort / customization.
4. Aspirational - these are very desirable tables a bit outside my budget (used), I am looking for more suggestions to see if stretching upwards to about 10-12K will yield material sonic benefits. VPI HW40 has strong recommendations and I really like DD tables for their simplicity and accuracy. Also in the category are several Acoustic-Solid Models, SME models, Basis Signature 2500 with vacuum. Also Clearaudio Innovation, absolutely stunning table. 

I am fortunate that I will have a very solid room environment with solid stone floors and massive stone walls, with near zero vibrations. And very good acoustics as well as reasonably good associated equipment. Hence I will perhaps be able to get away with a reasonably stable table and spend the money on a superlative cartridge (or two)

The range of choices is incredible and also overwhelming. Hence my broad decision approach will be along following core principles:

1. Simplicity and Convenience:  a table that doesn’t require constant attention, endless upgrade, tweaking and TLC. I would much rather spend money and time researching , buying and listening to records. 
2. Beauty: Our music systems are our joy and pride. They are a statement of our taste and style. I would choose a table that is visually appealing, and a joy to behold and operate. Hence high mass, and reasonable room presence (not bling like Triangle Art) is important
3. Cost - lastly - I would keep the budget in check. It is easy to get carried away, I am not convinced that spending more and more gets better results. I need to save money for my digital chain (Mola Mola Tambaqui and Jays Audio CDT3 Mk III in pipe) and new speakers. As much as I love vinyl, I really enjoy Roon’s convenience, as well as the pleasure of using CDs that I have collected for decades. Hell, I enjoy my Nakamichi LX-5 so very much. 

This is where I am as of now. Please challenge, counter and critique my thoughts, that’s what makes this community so great! I will be sure to keep everyone informed where I land in this journey, but lets keep the discussion going!!

Happy holidays all!

 

@pindac Very happy to read all this info! I agree the Panzerholz is fantastic and I’m actually sitting in a nice amount of scraps I’m will find useful soon. Not so interested in tonearm wand but have seen some interesting bodies for DL103 etc

 

@rauliruegas The Palette is lovely, but needed to recap and fix a few DC issues so it’s in shop. I was trying to fix myself, recap no problem, but there were some issues with 2 potentiometers and typical situation with Levinson the parts are proprietary and the manufacturer wouldn’t sell to me. So it’s become more complicated. At the moment there is a small Pass B1 Nutube pre in its place, which is surprisingly wonderful! But oops this has gone off topic, sorry OP!!

I would appreciate suggestions for around $5-8K (table + arm), new or used. I will have separate budget for cartridge. One preferred option (but not must-have) is universal voltage, as I may move the unit to Europe later. My current vintage turntable (Project Perspective) is 22 years old, and while I don't know how to compare to something really amazing, I can say that my setup is lacking detail and bass. The tonearm is terrible to keep aligned. Based on visits to Axpona and Cap Audio Fest and other research, I am thinking of a few in my budget, but will really value your suggestions of other brands:

How do we know whether:

• The OP’s TT itself is OK or not?
• Whether the TT itself is affecting the bass?
• Or whether their arm is suitable for their cart?

The fact that they find the arm difficult is use and keep set up is reason enough to upgrade the the arm.

But I am wondering if the OP needs and arm and a cart more than a new TT itself.
 

@au_lait There is something satisfying about having a selection of Densified Woods on Standby. I have Board up to 75mm thick.

The Pass Design Korg Nu-Tube Pre-Amp is one I know very well.

Have witnessed it in demonstrations at a Pre-Amp Bake Off where the price range of Amp's were up to £4K retail. It held its own totally respectfully if a transparency and clarity is the desirable perception for being present.

After having a loaned and tweaked by a friends Basic Model in my system for approx' 1 year, and really coming to terms with how this design delivers.

I am having a Mono Block Balanced / Single Ended Pre' Built for me using this design, with a New Produced Circuit Board that allows for a Component used to a Larger Dimension without a squeeze. To make the most of the design, I have also gone to the lengths of having two perfectly matched Volume Controls Bespoke Built for me.

  I have been discussing with the EE, the use of Densified Wood for the Casings.      

@musicmatters1206 I am not going to discourage you from your quest to grow your digital experience. I am going through that evolvement myself. I have a Dealer not too many miles with a Range of Jay's Audio CDT's, I am itching to have a owned Perfect Wave Memory Player demonstrated along side the Jay's Models using my Bespoke Built DAC, at present the home system is as good as packed away, so I will be a tyre kicker at present, and prior to this did not want to get caught up in a purchase that was readily available and then only to be packed away. This might be the 2024 endeavour.

As for digital in General your earlier comments on Streaming are from my most recent demonstration of streaming relevant. Putting it in context, the Streaming was played through the exact same devices, a SP10 R Vinyl Source with supporting ancillaries for the Vinyl function, to a value of approx' £20K  has been used prior to the Streaming Demonstration. The TT is a extremely impressive performer, the Streaming Demonstration was of a the latest guise of the device and was not out of its depth being replayed in a room shared with Great Vinyl and the follow Up digital devices that were to be demonstrated.

With Vinyl as the consideration and the aesthetics of the TT being a big influence on a decision to be made.

The Model in the Link may catch your attention for aesthetic appeal.

If carefully planned and created, I feel is possible to be produced for approx' $1200, even with Polished Stacked Platters and if the Slate Top Plate on the Plinth is exchanged and a Veneered Densified Wood is used in its place. This will deliver a impressive performance as seen, the PTP Design does let an Idler Stand Out in delivered performance over other Idler Models.

Add to this at a later date or from the off set a luxury item such as a Speed Controller at approx' $1000. A LDA Quartz Lock, which I know well and have demonstrated it against other Speed Controllers, where it has shown to be a exceptional influence on a Idler Drive and also a Belt Drive.

With the correct planning and prudent purchase of a Donor TT. There is a lot of TT here for the monies and a lot of monies saved for other items to support the TT and the digital interest. 

    

@pindac 

Yes the Nutube was quite a fun build, only a few hours! I’ve also done a few ACA monos. So, you’re doing an alternate version of B1 that’s balanced? Assuming the larger component you mean an upgraded power supply that’s internal? One thing to look out for with Nutube is microphonics, there are some crafty methods of damping that but I’m sure your friend knows. Feel free to send me pics when you’re done, very interested! 

I have real estate for large diameter Cap's which will be seated as typical and not be squeezed in to a create a attachment. 

This will be the housing that may be produced from a Densified Wood. The Power Supply is looking likely to be within its own casing as there are demonstrations from other builds that suggest this is a valuable Topology. 

 

@musicmatters1206 

re your #3 (Vintage TTs), yes, there are turnkey solutions, and at least in the case of idler drive TTs, they are extraordinarily low maintenance, which is why they were often used in radio stations, and why so many have lasted for 60+ years.  Here is one turnkey provider, whom I’ve used for my Garrard 401 (the blue one on his website), and, most recently, my Thorens td-124 (platter finished in grigio silvertone, with a figured mahogany plinth):

 

@musicmatters1206 

I posted a picture of them side-by-side on the asylum:

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1217409&highlight=SLL&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fforum%3Devents%26session%3D20221028102313&r=

 

It you can stretch more get that Basis , last got offer for people watching for under $10k.

@musicmatters1206 @mdalton 

Beautiful! Also if you’re in the market for an idler, check out Matt from Audio Grail. He he specializes in Garrard 301 and 401 and works a lot with Cusworth plinths which are hand shaped and jointed.

Dear @musicmatters1206  : " the centerpiece of my system and would go for a high mass design with room presence. "

That's fine with mebut seems to me that you are " working " more to " impress " your friends than looking for the bestquality performance levels that does not puts nothing or lost nothing to the sensible and be loved cartridge signal.

Btw, speakers has really the true room/system presence but that its me.

 

R.

@rauliruegas, thats actually not true but I can understand your perspective. A high level of performance is absolutely a given, but is not the "only" criterion for me in any purchase, be it a car, a road bike or furniture. Its just like food, where its not just about taste, its also about the presentation and much more. We are all fortunate to have ample choices of table with stunning visual appeal coupled with top notch performance, reliable service and long track record - many suggested in this thread. 

Lastly, I appreciate good design and art - its for me to enjoy every day, not to impress others. 

@mdalton, much appreciated thanks. I did not know about these options. I am now looking at various turnkey vintage choices in the market, also including Thorens TD 125mk II by Art of Sound from Germany...

 

As to Panzerholz, I use it for the motor board of my turntable and for the arm wand. It excels at both.

@terry9 I did not know of others who are using the P'holz as a Arm Wand.

Did your experience leave you with the perception there was another level of detail  being extracted (crud removed ) with this as the material.

Each Time I experience it in use as a exchange material to a material I am quite familiar with. There is a certainty a extension of detail is present and a new comprehension is created of the structure of the recording during the presentation. The other trait that is on offer, and one that takes a little extra time to convince oneself is present, is the added micro details to how the instrument has been used, or the Vocal Note Formed. This is a lot of improvement for a little bit of being curious and not with too much cost involved to step so far forward in a improvement. I find it hard to see this as a subjective evaluation, there are so many reports all making claims that have a cross over of information. 

For those with a mind to produce a range of items for HiFi purposes, It is becoming a go to material now. Which is at this stage of being presented as material worthy of investigation, is now with about 12 years of forum promotion for the investigation into the usage behind it.   

@pindac I built (actually, most of the woodwork was done to my specifications) three Pz wands for my air bearing DIY tonearm. First was just a flat piece 4mm thick Pz with a Pz spine. It was the lightest and worked quite well.

Second was a hollow cone of Pz with the grain running the length of the wand. It was heavier and better.

Third was a hollow cone consisting of rings epoxied together. This was heaviest and best.

Sound was all that you suggest: more detail, especially micro-detail. But the over-riding impressions were sweetness and realism. The harshness seemed to have all been damped away. Cartridge was a Koetsu with diamond cantilever.

I will also be building a lighter version of the last attempt, and a sapphire wand for comparison.

I also built a Pz wand for a Terminator, which had similar benefits, but not as much. I am using the heavy Pz as my main analogue.

Aside from several after market plinths custom built to accommodate any of several different vintage turntables and optional arm wands offered by Reed, I don’t know of any company using P’holz in their commercial audio products. That’s perhaps unfortunate but it does suggest there’s no widespread trend toward P’holz.

I noticed you put new speakers in there. While there are no set rules.. there are some really useful generalities. This particular one I fell into very quickly many decades ago… speakers first.

If you think about them as the most sensitive and important instrument with which you judge your components… it has to be first. A new set of speakers will set the stage for evaluating anything you put into your system.

Let’s say speakers present sound differently and better ones are more resolving.. Then if you get your final turntable, or DAC or whatever… then upgrade your speakers… suddenly all sorts of nuances you were unaware of come to light… suddenly your system doesn’t sound right and you have to start swapping upstream components.

It is just a lot safer and less expensive to start with a speaker upgrade. Then survey your system for weaknesses… so, for instance your preamp could be the next weakness (and effects all components). If that is up to par… then I would think the Phonostage or Turntable could be your next concern. But it is appropriate that your phono stage is a similar investment level to your Turntable or you are not likely getting the best out of your Turntable.

Your budget might stretch to a pre owned Clearaudio Innovation plus arm (arm choice dependent on budget). The standard PSU is just a wall wart which would leave the option of upgrading to the Professional 24v supply if you move to Europe.

@lewm

Aside from several after market plinths custom built to accommodate any of several different vintage turntables and optional arm wands offered by Reed, I don’t know of any company using P’holz in their commercial audio products. That’s perhaps unfortunate but it does suggest there’s no widespread trend toward P’holz.

Mentioning Clearaudio, they’ve been active with the use of Panzerholz in their upper end plinths for several years now including options on mid-tier ‘tables as well. In addition to the dense “P’holz” material, they also use additional internal ballast damping.

Panzerholz is a Trade Name for one Type of Densified Wood.

Densified Woods produced to a Similar Structure to P'holz and using a Phenolic Based Resin are available from a variety of Brands.

No Company has to declare the Materials it is using, it can also apply their own in house name to the Material to protect their IP.

If I were a Commercial Entity, I am not too sure how open I would be about supplying to competitors how the R&D has given the edge, and the Sharing the  information about Bespoke Material choices that has been crucial the the evolvement.

On the Flip Side, if I have nailed the Market and am a 'go to' Brand, the way the Product is described might be a little bit more informative to show the commitment to creative design.   

I have received an inquiry from a US Forum Member only yesterday and have made known to them, Five Brands and the design for the Board that is needed to be a similar Board to P'holz B25.

 The following is a few question and answers from a individual with a Very Long Career at the Cutting Edge of Mainstream Industries.

Their Career started many years past, at Siemens working on solutions to control vibration.

This individual has a ongoing Career in Mainstream Industry and Created a Company that has been producing Speakers that are highly appraised in the Audio World. 

Additionally, the individual remains a Consultant to Industry, especially the Automotive and is employed as a visionary for their future planning. 

There are other Companies that are using Densified Wood, it is to be found mentioned as a Material used in Speakers, which makes sense when seeing the following from the very respected Speaker Producer.

The Individual who created this Company and is very involved in the design for the Product Range, is an Advocate of Densified Wood and its unique properties for managing transferral of energies created during replays of a recording through a Typical Type of design for a Audio System. 

______________________________________________________________

So what is the benefit of tankwood?

Tankwood is very dense and stiff, it has almost the same Young modulus like aluminium (standard not air craft grade). And it is an inhomogeneous material. It starts a 1,4 mm beech veneers slices which are bonded together under enormous pressure and with some 2 component resin.  So there is a correlation to carbon panels, which are carbon fibres embedded in a resin. Here we have wood fibres embedded in a resin.

You can order different alignments between the layers which have different properties to address what kind of mechanical stress (push-pull, bending, torsion) you have in your panel. Most interesting feature compared to homogenous materials like MDF, HDF and aluminium is that the speed of sound in the material is different in each direction. Why? See, the speed of sound in a rigid  material is the square root of Young modulus divided by density.

The young modulus is different in the 3 directions but the density is constant. Therefore the speed of sound is different in each direction leading to a high dispersion of energy so that resonance can not build up so easily.

Please tell us more about your unique internal design? 

All internal braces and panels are designed to have different eigenfrequencies.

We use several approaches to do this, one is to design some dimensions according to the Devine ratio (“Golden ratio in nature”) the other is about modal spacing where we try to use Fibonaci algorithm. 

Furthermore we are implementing an acoustic labyrinth with a billion of possible transfer paths in the critical areas.

______________________________________________________________

More importantly over the past years of Trying out Plinth and Sub Plinth Materials, I have not been able to discover a description of a Material as is described in this individuals words about a Densified Wood.

I have seen a variety of  data on offer for testing that is done on Densified Wood.

It was the Test Results that encouraged myself away from Granite and Slate and other Timber Composites.

It is the descriptions that are rarely found like the above, from a Specialist in such matters of controlling a transferred energy that is ensuring I made a valuable decision for my own situation.

It is no secret, I have encouraged others to experience Densified Wood, and the reports being returned along with the report returned form others across the globe is one more confirmation the material delivers something that is quite attractive and wanting to be maintained.  

@terry9 You have been investigative with your usage of P'holz. The venture into the unknown has certainly delivered and the good impression made from the use of the material is once more out there to be seen.

I added a info in a previous post that was a mistake, in relation to a Densified Wood the individual was keen to try out who I encouraged to produce an Arm Wand.

I stated Pico Wood, this is a Company in Spain that does a Phenolic Densified Wood.

Now I have seen how investigative you are, I am off the view the wood I should have stated may have an appeal. The following will give a Good Description for your pondering.

The Link is the Brand of Densified Wood I should have stated for an alternative Densified Wood Arm Wand Material.

 

 

SL-1200 gae 50th anniversary TT

Last you will ever need!

Well Tempered Reference would be the best sounding option. Basis Ovation has the best look/sound ratio.

Consider the Merrill-Williams REAL. A number of dealers were using them to demo their equipment at AXPONA and it sounded very detailed and tuneful. You might also look at Clearaudio and Acoustic Signature. 

Dealers may have stock of the Merrill but the table is discontinued. The 101.4 was announced but as far as I know never released

Looks like you are getting an RP-10.  Unfortunate that you do not find the 1200 G attractive.

I could care less about the looks.  I do not need the adjustable speed and all the strobes and flashing lights.  The cover with its little dome is hard to clean and looks ridiculous.  The whole thing screams '80s disco (I hate disco).

The 1200 G is the best turntable on the market in its price range.

boothroyd, Thanks for mentioning that Clearaudio use Panzerholz in their upper end plinths.  I did not know that.  But perhaps that is the exception that proves the rule; can you name any other high volume manufacturers that use Panzerholz or a like material?  Please don't confuse my impression of scarcity for one of disapproval.  I am quite sure that Panzerholz is an excellent choice for a build material, but I just don't think it is now or ever will be widely used by the mainstream.

I have a Marantz TT15-S1 with a gold ring Eroica XL MC cart. I just ordered a Jeff Spall Tone arm for it. $2000.00 tone arm upgrade will be my end game table.

+1 @mijostyn - great post.

OP - Even though you have stone floors, I would recommend getting the Rega P10 (or P8 and get a great cartridge which is very close in quality at about 55% of the price) with a suspension externally since one is not built in. You can also get a wall shelf. I have a P8 and put it on a Townshend platform and then on top of a wall shelf. Minimizing vibrations to the maximum extent I can. Platform improved the sound dramatically and the shelf got rid of any foot falls, and I have a suspended floor over a crawl space, so that is critical. Maybe just the suspension will maximize it for you with the stone floors.

If you truly want set it and forget and simplicity of purchase, Rega is the way to go (or if you want to splurge, you can get an SME, but get a IV or V arm). I like an integrated arm/table design. Also there is a unique clamp you can get for the Rega that accommodates the extremely short spindle. I use it on warped records for the maximum impact. It is by a company that also makes the mat I use that minimizes vibration further as the record only is in contact with the mat for a couple square mms. Hexmat eclipse mat and Molekula clamp made in Hungary, but delivery was a snap in the states. Both are a little pricey, but worth it to me. 

@musicmatters1206 it's not an advice, just my observation: high-end audio is ugly. Very ugly (subjective/opinion, of course) There are very few exceptions. I thought this 20 years ago when I saw my brother's super expensive British gear and then again every time I visit a dealer. I have seen so many turntables and amps that now I am used to them and think they are less ugly but it's a mystery to me why. I think it's how it evolved, partly cost, partly arrogance. It's kind of like programmer's design of a UI, functional but ugly 9 out of 10 times.

Speakers are less ugly, some are beautiful. I love and own Rega but they are pretty hideous too. My favorite TTs in the looks department are from Clearaudio

No appreciation for the OriginLive tables?  One rarely sees them on the used market and when they are ... they move extremely fast.  They appear to have a very high cost to performance ratio (big value).  They have a stelar trade in and upgrade policy.  

@drawding

Yes, that is a strange omission.

They've been around for ages and ages but like a few other companies they've always somehow slipped under the mainstream reviewers radar.

Perhaps they're publicity shy?

Or perhaps it's the fear of expansion and all of its potential pitfalls?

I can remember the days when Rega used to get some criticism for plodding along doing quite well nicely but with no apparent ambitions to expand anytime soon.

Of course all of that changed after the infamous Linn/Naim schism which broke up their stranglehold on the UK market 

Perhaps Origin Live are the same?

There must be dozens of similarly sized companies who are happy to keep a low profile and more importantly keep their order book full for the near foreseeable future.

 

 

A friend who has been a long term owner of a SME 20 / 12 using a SME V.

Not too long ago changed the TT and after a Idler Drive Experience has chosen a Scheu TT, that is modified with OL TT Parts and has a OL Illustrious. Their assessment as they have the best recollections of A respected Belt Drive Set Up in the home system is that it is a exceptional TT and great VFM.  

@kahlenz actually i am most likely NOT getting a Rega RP10. I am inclined toward a high mass design. Also I accept the Technics SL1200G is one of the best at price class. But my wife hates the looks of it and that is a big factor....and I find it hideous too.

@drawding @cd318 thanks for bringing up Origin Live. As you can see from my original post, OL Sovereign was already on my shortlist, but its not well known in US and they are rarely found in used market. I actually exchanged notes with Mark Baker earlier this year and he seemed to recommend the OL Resolution table (with best toneram i could afford), and said Sovereign is mostly for the looks and very marginal performance upgrade.

If I can generalize my findings, two things emerge:

a. there are great small manufacturers who are not very well known, but seem to offer excellent quality at lower premiums. They have also existed for decades, they are not fly by night operators. This class includes Origin Live, Acoustic Solid, S.A.M just to name a few. I am sure folks here can name half a dozen more

b. a combo of a mid priced table+arm (say 5-6K) and a high quality cartridge (say 3-4K) perhaps is a better choice in my situation. I also think (thanks to many members's recommendation here) having two tonearm setup (or at least an upgrade path) will be useful so i can have one high end and one mid-end catridge. It will also be more fun.

Also forgot to mention - Mark Baker also confirmed that all current models of Origin Live tables are multi-voltage (will work in EU / US / Asia). Important consideration for me although I realize it may be irrelevant to many.

SME

@lewm Yes it’s too niche, hard to work with, expensive and HEAVY… I agree probably never going to be mainstream. Closest thing to that are the Artisan Fidelity plinths.

As for cost, as a Board Machined for a TT Chassis my last purchase worked out, (inclusive of Cutting Up the full size board by a professional cutting service) to £100 per Board Cut at 500mm x 400mm x 25mm delivered to the Door. I was gifted a CNC Cut Out, for the Chassis, but this can be achieved in a variety of ways, if one has the confidence in their skills and correct tools.

Granite in the Past has far exceeded this cost when produced as a Laminated Tiered Structure with a Tidying up to the aesthetic. The owned Slate as the Raw Material with a Highly Polished Fascia, as a salvaged/repurposed item, cost some time ago approx’ £70 for a piece large enough to do Two Plinths as a Single Layer or one as a Laminated Two Tier Structure. Add the Cutting and aesthetic work to this to tidy it up and the cost will exceed the cost of a P'holz Plinth.  

These Stone Materials are no longer wanted, they are definitely Superseded as a Plinth Material. There is real benefit in not having to arrange for a Logistics Plan to move them, I am still experiencing this with Corian and it is not healthy on a Getting Old Bones Body. P'holz is a much friendlier material for such purposes.

Where P’holz has a further advantage is that a Thickness of only 10mm produces all the desirable measurements referred to in earlier made references.

Adding Tiers or using a Thicker Board does not show any alterations to the Measurements that suggest there is a further improvement to the Damping and Frequency Data recorded.

As said in a previous post, I know one individual who produced a P’holz Composite Plinth, which was designed to have a much increased Mass using a material that has proven through measurement Damping Properties. This Plinth when produced was in use as the main Plinth. After a period of time and when eventually having produced a P’holz Only Plinth. The comparison took place of the Two Plinths with the same Modified DD TT>Tonearm>Cart’ and Support Structure.

The Composite was proved to be not as attractive to their preferences and returned to a Naked P’holz design.

This individual now has Two different versions of Modifications carried out on the same Model DD TT, which are both mounted in P’holz Plinths. The idea was to keep one TT as original, but the TT in original was not tolerated any longer after experiences the impression made from the first modification.

@musicmatters1206 The link might get you attention, it is a December 2022 Sales Ad.

 

I am the proud owner of a VPI HW 40 and I could not be happier with the table. It is significant, solid, sports a very heavy platter and plinth that add pitch black silence and fabulous low end performance. The 12 inch gimbal fat boy arm is a treat to use and makes my Van den Hull cartridge that much better. I anticipate the direct drive motor will give me trouble and service free performance for as long as I own it. There is no worry there. Plus VPI has been around for over 40 years. They are not going anywhere. If you have the budget it must be in your top two or three considered endgame table options. Good luck with whichever vinyl spinner you land on!

@pindac, it is another lesson that mass alone does not work. Certain materials are more prone to ringing, some are intrinsically better damped. Examples of the later are aluminum and most wood over a certain thickness. Panzerholtz is resin infused plywood. The layers have been dyed for aesthetic reasons. It makes great plinths and could even be used as a sub chassis in a suspended design. My turntable used a 1" thick aluminum sub chassis. I doubt it would sound any different if it were made out of panzerholtz.

Origin designs are fine. Unfortunately, the company has a reputation for bad service. It has come up on this site several times. 

@musicmatters1206 , No, it will not be fun. You will wind up listening to the one you like best and the other will just take up space and money. Put that money into a better turntable and cartridge The very best value in a less expensive table is the Thorens TD1600 followed by the RP10 and then on to the Sotas. If you want the ability to upgrade down the line Sota is an even better choice. The only time you need a second cartridge is to play 78's.  As often as you would play them swapping out the cartridge would be the most efficient way of going about it.

Manufacturing turntables and tonearms is not all that difficult. I have seen several very reasonable home spun units. Making them with intelligent design and aerospace precision is not so easy. This leads to an unfortunate number of enterprises that make rather poor gear. Any company that makes a unipivot arm is suspect. Some, like Clearaudio and Kuzma do it at the low end of their ranges to keep the price down. Some do it because it is child's play to make them. Graham and Basis arms are no longer unipivots they are bipivots. Outboard motors are another point of contention. Turntables with more than one platter are functionally a joke.  More bearings equal more noise. 

I heard a Kuzma Stabi S with the 4 points and it’s is a great combo. And you have a keeper tonearm in case you want to upgrade the tt in the future. 
Also I would look at the EAT turntables as they seem to be very well built. They benefit of the Pro-Ject expertise and factory facilities. Pro-Ject’ s boss is Jozefina Lichtenneger’s husband. 
 

@mijostyn Your description of a Densified Wood and in your case the reference to Panzerholz is quite limited in description and does not demonstrate where it separates as a Production Method to a Typical Reference to a Plywood. 

The Process used to produce a Phenolic Resin Densified Wood is using extreme compression multiple layer of a Veneer. The Veneers are to receive a specified  volume @ g/m2 of Phenolic Resin between each layer of Veneer in the Ply Assembly.

This is then compressed as an assembly to reduce the original thickness by 50%, a 1.4 mm Veneer will compress to approx' 0.7mm. 

The entire assembly is then Vacuum Treated (removes all air pockets from imperfections and the Woods Cell Structure, which will be filled with the flow of the Phenolic Resin).

There is also a process to administer a Heat Treatment.

Densified Woods are now with a Patent in place for more than 100 Years and the Production Technology and extended use of application for the product due to this has been an evolving R&D.

The Dynawood Brand for Densified Wood is one that has a selection of Colours as the Option, but this suits a particular industry, such as Knife Handles.

The statement made about the use of Aluminium and P'holz for the same role and having same impact is pure conjecture, if one took the time to review the Measurements as a result of Damping and Frequency response they could not so flippantly make such a statement. 

There are obvious differences between the effect the two materials will have to be anticipated as occurring, there is data to explain differences when discovered.   

The Link is a portal that is found from the most basic of Web Searches.

Another case in relation to your remarks of the 'Old Guard' getting it quite wrong in relation to what is required for modern military manoeuvres.