Do I Really Need a Dedicated Streamer?

@kevn Perfect.   thank you

@soix 

+1 ….(emphasis added ….. ) big time !

@dunkin - I’m not sure if your question as to why so many were suggesting you switch to tidal or qobuz when all you were asking about was how a better streamer might give you better sound quality, but if not, it is for precisely the same reason why a truly good streamer makes a difference. Everything about sound quality begins with your source, and by extension, your source equipment. The ability of the computer that any streamer, server or basic iMac is to perform its processing well, if fully dependent on its ability to do that processing with as little noise created as possible. The most recent discoveries in digital audio tell us that huge amounts of digital noise/jitter/whatever is created with any kind of processing - while this isn’t a problem with the generally accurate transmission of word, drawing or perhaps interview sound files, with high resolution audio, the reduction to realism of these kinds of sound files can be huge. Some new and groundbreaking typologies of digital audio transmission are now so sensitive to processing noise, that basic 44.1khz sound files sound better than the higher resolution files of 192lhz and above due to amount of noise that the higher degree of processing creates. You can read more about this in relation to the taiko Olympus server, and their new protocol termed XDMI that has replaced the now ubiquitous and very compromised USB.
In the same way that the source equipment of a server is so vital for the accuracy and cleanness of the source signal that is fed to your DAC, so is the source signal that each streaming service feeds to your streamer or server. With Spotify, its signal feed is of such low resolution that a change of receiving equipment may not detect any sound difference. This is the reason why some have suggested improvement to your streaming service prior to improvement to how you stream your music.
Do excuse me if this had already become apparent to you earlier ; )

In friendship - kevin

@jssmith Thank you sir, I have a SMSL DAC as well (DO200) and it sounds pretty good to me.  I am on the lookout for a DAC/Streamer to consolidate my system to save on space. 

Pretty sure the measurements are taken using the analog output as input and are not done in digital domain.  Analog out is why it’s a DAC and not just a D.   So there is that.

@invalid they don’t. But you can still program it if you really try. 

@jssmith I didn't know that Dac manufacturers were using an analog computer for their output stages.

Congratulations @jssmith ! You have achieved musical nirvana…enjoy it to the fullest!

@tubeguy76

S.M.S.L Sanskrit 10th MK II

It’s the best measuring cheapest one that looks good in my rack. Cost about $120.

My other system uses the DAC of my Paradigm preamp because it supports Play-Fi. Doesn’t measure as well, but still beyond the capability of human hearing.

As to the you don’t have the equipment or the ears posts ... been hearing that stuff for over 35 years since I took my first two blind tests and saw the golden-ears crash and burn. Learned how human hearing measures and human psychology works. Read Harmon Kardon’s data and stopped trusting anyone’s opinion and started trusting the facts.

And yes, DACs can sound different if the analog section is programmed to sound different. But that is a design flaw. You can see how this is done in the book Schitt Happened. The proper conversion algorithm was figured out long ago. I’ve programmed several types of conversions myself. There’s almost never a reason to deviate from the standard algorithm.

Oh, and my "steamer" is $179 Windows laptop and a $30 Echo streaming Amazon Music HD.

Streamers do not sound alike but stick with well known quality products these days and it’s hard to go wrong. Much harder than say with most any popular media format that preceded streaming.

Dacs….also much much better for much much less these days but again each may sound different. Some quite a bit! Hard to find any good quality one (based on measurements) at most any price though that will sound flat out bad.  I have a $80 portable DAC I use when out and about and it is very very good (as advertised). That is progress!

DCS has a new SOTA 5 box 6 figure cost DAC. DCS has always been known for its cutting edge DAC technology and having heard their products I agree. Would love to hear that one on a system capable of delivering all the goods.

Anyone who says a cheap streamer sounds just  as good as anything else hasn’t heard a good one or doesn’t have the system or ears to be able to tell the difference. The difference between a Wiim or Node and something like an Innuos Zenith or Aurender N200 is night and day, and if you can’t hear that level of difference, we’ll, that’s just sad. Ignorance is bliss.

@jssmith If you don't mind me asking, what streamer or streamer/dac are you using these days?  I had somebody get pretty upset (not here) when I asked them what they were using after they had a similar take on digital streaming gear.  They had said it doesn't matter and any cheap one would do and when I asked what they had, they had a fairly pricey streamer.  Seems a bit hypocritical but what do I know?

No, you don't need one, and no, quality will not increase. Even a $7 Apple DAC's noise level is beyond human hearing.

I upgraded from a Squeezebox Duet to Chromecast Audio to Bluesound Node X and to the Auralic G1,1. When streaming from Qobuz, sound quality appear almost as good as when listening to my MD Étude FM tuner. I also use a Chord Qutest and a McIntosh integrated amp.

OP, just stay with what you have. Spend extra money on something else entirely for which you know for 100% certainty you are getting something that makes sense to you.

The Wiim products are a great path on which to begin. Just got the pro unit the other day and it works just dandy. It doesn’t seem like it will do the DSD stuff but I’m not to that worry at this time. Also have the Wiim B06 in the other system that works great as well. The Plex app is what transfers the music from the computer to the Wiim units. It works great and is of a low cost. Highly recommended. 

Nope. I have not, nor will I ever, stream. 

To the OP:  a good lawyer doesn’t just answer your question if there’s a problem with the premise embedded in your question.  Similarly for good audiophiles.  As many have told you, if you stream using Spotify, you’re wasting your money if you spend more than Wiim (or RPi) money on a dedicated streamer.  Spotify streams at about the same rate as the high option for Youtube!  If you ever solve/change your music source, come on back - there’s a lot of nuance - and some disagreement among members - regarding exactly how much and in what use cases dedicated streamers can make a significant difference.

Thank you @oldrooney @emergingsoul @audioman58 @mahler123 

@dunkin

I love the Spotify playlists playing music at random. They offer a much better variety of topics to choose from and then they individualize the number of playlists as I recall which are very good.

Playlists on Q or T are not as good. I was able to transfer many Spotify playlists over to qobuz. I thought Spotify was going to offer hi-fi at some point.

If you buy a streamer, probably will be a lot better than an iPad especially if you have McIntosh and a chord dac ( I have a TT two Hugo chord, and a lumin x1 streamer/dac that I like a lot more). I also have blue sound which was kind of crappy.

The commentary here in related to a streamer I found especially helpful and prepared by people who really know what they’re doing. Who knows maybe there’s a billionaire that’s writing a comment. Streamers do a lot of stuff.

I also enjoy exploring endless rabbit holes which require additional fees to open up new tunnels and some tunnels are extremely expensive to explore. Unfortunately, the tunnels are so complicated that you probably will not be able to escape. So I would approach this Area carefully.

Whoever would say a pc is as good soniclyas a good

Or even decent streamer has never heard a decent audio system

And your ethernet cabled as well as usb and I2S  cables

Are equally important  if you want optimum 

Results i have compared many for digital

Tubulus Audio cables especially Digital cables.

OP

you don’t really need a streamer.  As I mentioned up thread streamers are just networking computers that are optimized for playing audio files.  They also look like audio components and not like PCs.  They tend to dispese with the OS that PCs use and utilize OS optimized for music playback as opposed to say, trying to sell you stuff.

  If a PC, or tablet,sounds fine to you in your system, then you are done.

@dunkin You ask do I need a dedicated streamer?

I answer, ‘No you do not.’

But I interpret those who have tried to counsel you on this matter, that, considering that you have a good DAC, amp, and speakers, if were to TRY a dedicated streamer (and perhaps some software delivering lossless audio), you would WANT a dedicated streamer. The sound is that much better. But far be it from me to tell you what to do. Be happy. Listen to the music. 

@audphile1 This is really awesome tech info and what I need to learn.  thank you.  I appreciate you taking the time for my specific question.   

@audioman58 Thank you also.  makes sense

If you want it to sound good you do need a decent quality streamer fs a Mac,or windows computer and of quality with LPS power supplies 

and a DDC or Reclocker helps if you have a $1500 or under streamer.,

even helps your dac in many ways.

 
Actually @dunkin while you were getting kind answers you continued to not absorb the information that was being provided to you and you continued to ask. 
 

Let’s try this…

Dedicated streamers:

1. Better power supply - lowers noise

2. Isolated network from audio chain

3. Hard-wired to network - minimizes the EMI inside the unit caused by wifi receiver 

4. audio grade digital clock - reclocks the digital signal to reduce jitter on the digital output ensuring as clean a signal as possible to be sent to DAC

5. isolated USB output to minimize jitter 

6. Purpose built and designed firmware for better processing of signal in digital domain prior to feeding DAC. 
 

7. high resolution streaming with bit rates higher than the 16/44 redbook CD

8. no non-purpose tasks that the OS needs to run - focus is solely on ingesting the  feed from streaming services and converting it to signal that your DAC would understand  

The degree of improvement varies based on hardware and software design. Objective is to get the cleanest possible signal out to your DAC. User experience with the native software is a user preference and priority. Tethering your iPad to your DAC is not a thing with streamers because the tablet becomes your remote controller. 
 

iPad …

built to serve many purposes which it performs equally well. It’s a jack of all trades, master of none. It does everything at once without regard for minimizing jitter on its output because it doesn’t care…it isn’t built to be a streamer. This goes back to my lawn mower example. 
 

But somehow I feel you will continue to woodpecker this until you annoy yourself and everyone else. 
 

Good luck!

Actually @audphile1 While I was getting some kind answers, but I was getting a lot of advice about changing from Spotify to something else,  and having freedom to move around my room choosing music.  I was not asking those questions.   

I am interested in understanding the why using a dedicated streamer over using a PC or iPad is better…(not why Qobuz is better than Spotify…)

Some kind folks have answered about their experience using a streamer, and that music sounds much better this way.  I believe them and appreciate their time to answer my question.  Full stop: Thank you!!

I still do not understand *why* a dedicated streamer is better than a computer, technically.   Seems to me, they are "running" the same file.  ( I am not a tech-person). why is "serving that file from a streamer better than from my PC?  Same files, same USB cable....

And yes,  I have a DAC because I did not like the sound of the built-in DAC in my Amplifier.  But the DAC is hardware. I know that a dedicated-engineered DAC is better than whatever DAC chip is slapped into my Apple product.  

But to me, the streamer is serving or "playing" a file to my DAC…just like the iPad would be sending that file into the same dedicated DAC.   Why should the streamer be better?

Again, I appreciate the answers and the advice.   Thank you 

Thank you @soix. I will try that ad it makes sense.  Thank you.

@dunkin you have asked a question and you got answers. But you continue to doubt that a dedicated streamer will be an improvement.
 

Why did you get a DAC? You could have run an adapter from iPad to RCA and feed your McIntosh…iPad has a DAC in it. No need for Chord Qutest. 
Also…by your logic if I have a lawn mower I don’t need a car…I can just drive that thing to work…it’s got wheels so I’ll be alright. 
 

All jokes aside, purpose built streamers will execute their task better than a multi purpose smart tablet or computer. All the unnecessary crap that can compromise the performance is removed. You can be the judge if this by trying a WiiM streamer. 
But…you can continue to not listen to what we’re trying to explain to you and continue to use your iPad and I guarantee you no one on this forum will give a 💩. 

I tend to disagree with @jl35 a little bit on this.  While I agree Tidal/Qobuz will sound better than Spotify given good enough equipment, my improvement with a streamer over the iPad was so large I have to think you’d still notice a significant improvement even using Spotify.  Just a semi-educated guess given my experience.  FWIW. 

Thank you @jl35 and  ​​​​​@soix .  Very clear and appreciated.  

Ok, I’m gonna answer your question directly.  I started streaming with my iPad and it sounded fine but CDs sounded better by a good margin and I was disappointed.  The good folks here encouraged me to get a streamer, so I got an inexpensive iFi Zen Stream (with upgraded iPowerX power supply) and the difference was literally night and day.  Bottom line — the iPad is a crap streamer and you don’t know what you’re missing.  Further, my guess is once you have the better resolution with a streamer you’ll hear greater differences between services like Tidal/Qobuz and Spotify.  If you don’t like the selection on Qobuz maybe try Tidal.  In any event, don’t fool yourself into thinking the iPad is ok as a streamer because it absolutely is not and it’s greatly compromised.  

My experience is that a dedicated streamer running into a good DAC will not improve the sound quality if streaming Spotify...but that it will improve the sound quality if using Tidal or Qobuz...quality of the streamer only matters if it’s being fed a high quality source...in your situation, I don't think a dedicated streamer will improve sound quality...

No need for you.

Folks, appreciate the comments and knowledge.  But I want to be clear on the question I am asking.  I am not asking about software (Qobuz v Spotify).  No matter what app, the question is: is a streamer somehow better(quality of music)  at serving the same files as an iPad or PC....both connect to the Spotify (or Qobuz) server.   Does the hardware really make a difference in serving same files in the music streamer app cloud? 

As @bbenzaquen6343 stated: 

"you need to get ride of Spotify and get Qobuz. They also have a 2 months free period. I guarantee you will hear the difference.

Once you hear it, you can unheard it."

Agreed wholeheartedly... and the costs are about the same. Just make sure to seek out and attentively listen to some of the hi res audio available. 

In the first trial month, I'd suggest doing some A/B testing against Spotify. Assuming you hear superior results via Qobuz, in the second month, I'd suggest getting a trial subscription to Roon, and (with their DSP set up best for your signal path & components), doing A/B testing between Qobuz hi res and Roon processing Qobuz hi res. 

Pardon the redundancy, but it's true, once you hear it, you can't unhear it.

I think so.  My music listening is sometimes seated, something background.  Having a streamer lets me have music going without also having to have my phone/pad or whatever draining it's battery.

@dunkin in that system I would ditch iPad as a source and Spotify as a service and switch to Tidal or Qobuz. 
Qutest is a nice DAC. Feed it a good signal and you’ll be impressed. 
Figure out the budget for a streamer. I recommend shopping on a used market. 
You can also try WiiM Pro Plus with a good digital coax cable as a starting point. Risk free from Amazon. 

Switched from streaming via a MacBook using USB to  my DAC to using an Aurender N20 Streamer. Significant improvement. Better imaging, Sounstage, Depth and overall sound quality. Laptops, and computers add noise and muddy the sound. You won’t notice until you replace with a dedicated streamer of decent quality. 

Hi, 

If you go to amazon.com, you can buy your Wiim and have 30 days to return it no questions asked.

Once you do that, you need to get ride of Spotify and get Qobuz. They also have a 2 months free period. I guarantee you will hear the difference.

Once you hear it, you can unheard it. You will never go back. You will only go forward, as there is much much better sound as you are willing to invest more in your system/room acoustics.

If your ever get to vinyl, you will find that the same record, pressed in different years sound completely different. It happens with digital as well.

This hobby is for the long run, but my proposed two trials represent a great start, risk free.

Enjoy!!

There are numerous variables in play here, but perhaps the most significant question is if using your iPad as a source device maintains a bit perfect audio stream to the USB output. Interestingly enough, I believe there may an issue streaming Apple Music, but what I find in a quick search implies that third party (e.g. Spotify, Tidal, etc.) content comes through unmolested (ie. not resampled by iOS).

Inexpensive streamers (e.g. WiiM) bring a one-stop shop of features and conveniences that satisfy most consumers.  More expensive streamers bring lower noise power supplies, more precise clocks, and more expensive integrated DAC platforms that appeal to discriminating consumers. You already have a standalone Chord Qutest DAC, so no reason to spend on an integrated DAC that you won’t use. Your Chord Qutest DAC has galvanically isolated USB implementation that minimizes electronic noise generated by your iPad and is the preferred connection. With asynchronous USB, your Qutest DAC (not source device) has the master clock, which is plenty good for your Spotify streaming.

The important caveat here is if you use your iPad for volume control, it is doing this in the digital domain and adversely impacts dynamic range. If you have a means of controlling volume in the analog domain (post DAC), that is the preferable route. For best results, you would set your iPad volume around 95% of maximum and control system volume at the preamp or amp.

We all use streaming for many different purposes. For me it's exploring new music. For many playlists are crucial. Some use for primary listening, others more as background. This all affects what streaming device is best for us. CD's are 1411 kbps, Spotify's top level is 320 kbps, so they eliminate more that 3/4 of the bits...The WiiM Pro Plus is an amazing device for it's price. Try one and see what you think...

I would suggest looking for a streamer that gives you a trial period to see if your system actually improves with a dedicated streamer or not. Then, your ears can decide.

Use my M1 MacBook Pro to usb input on dac…excellent sq…

If you want to free your iPad for other uses, you can build yourself a nice little streamer for $60-$70 all in. Get yourself a raspberry pie zero W2 computer board which costs about $15 and buy a case (you actually don’t need the case, it typically costs as much as the pi zero) and a wall wart power supply And then download Ropiee streaming software,which is free. You can stream to it via AirPlay and also it is a Roon end point. The electronics are very simple, it has just the basic computing power that you need for streaming. I have built a couple and find that they compare favorably with much more expensive streamers.
You may initially need to buy a few extra bits and bobs of adapter wires in order to download the software and transfer it to your pie zero, but that also gives you the option to explore other music streaming software. It is a cheap, fun little project that at the very least lets you use your iPad for more productive purposes.

Streamers are networking computers optimized for audio.

It will stream the same digits as your tablet.  Most streamers will do it much better than your tablet.  In digital audio timing is crucial.  If the 1s and 0s arrive slightly out of sync (this is called jitter) than the sound can change quite significantly.  Most streamers will beat a tablet or a phone because the portable devices are jack of all trades and haven’t been optimized for sound 

I find in the "streamer" discussion, the access management and the DAC question is muddled. For sound quality, the DAC is the chief factor. If you plan on keep using your Chord as the DAC, then the streamer is solely for access convenience. Maybe a given streamer has a better built-in DAC than a Chord, but then you could get the same result by using a similar quality stand-alone DAC, which you could also use for the DAC step in CD playing. I think there recently was a thread of DAC-free streamers.

One thing I am not clear in your set-up: What is your current software interface? Website, Spotify app, Audirvana/Roon? Some people claim to hear differences with software interfaces. With trial versions available for free, that is an easy way to check one factor out. I compared Audirvana and Roon and could not detect anything. I use a Mac mini with SSD going to a Holoaudio May L2 DAC but only for local FLAC files. I don't stream.

lossy Spotify

Spotify still streams lossy files, so I wouldn’t worry about your streaming technology until that changes, or you upgrade to Qobuz or Tidal.  

Thank you for folks with interest and helpful advice

not:  @fuzztone Why you have to be so nasty?  You have no idea what my room is like and my set up.  please go away....You are part of the problem.  ignoring you from now on.... 

anyway...

@jl35 (and others).  I tried Quboz...you know, sound quality is good. But playlist and other aspects of music choice/varfiety/playlists are also important to me.   I did not want to do Spotify but frankly it works and works well. It overcomes l the 5% or so quality loss.   

@audphile1 (and others) I have a Chord Quest and a good McIntosh system in this room with Totem speakers

I'm not a tech guy, but the files served from Spotify (or Qubox or Tidal) on my iPad seems to show same bit rate and depth. (44/16 etc ) on my DAC.    So is a separate streamer just for really really good systems that can hear that final 1-3% of sublime music?  (I may not be that audiophile)