As the title states, I am still unsure of if I need a dedicated streamer and if it would increase the fidelity of my music compared to how I am listening at the moment. Which is using AirPlay 2 from my iPhone to my Hegel H590 Integrated amp.
I know that the DAC in the Hegel H590 is considered quite good and it was one of the reasons that I bought the amplifier to begin with. However, would I get a better input using a dedicated streamer for around $1000 (such as the Cambridge CXNV2 for example) or would I be better off leaving things as is?
I am just not sure if airplaying music to the Hegel is degrading the signal in comparison to a streamer that would pull its own data and send it directly to the amplifier? Also, would improving my router placement and wifi signal make any difference to the sound since my Hegel is hardwired using a mesh wifi system?
I am open to switching streaming platforms if I can gain something out of it such as resolution but I’m not sure if apple music is the issue in any of this.
If the answer to the title is a no. I am curious what I would need to take the quality of my listening experience to the next level or where money would be better spent to achieve that. I do have acoustic panels in my room and have done my fair share of research on speaker placement already.
The only thing that I have been considering in the near-future would have to be the isoacoustics gaia 1 feet.
You have the bones for an awesome system but have to get a decent streamer. Right now you're driving a Shelby Mustang in first gear only (there are 5 more upshifts). To realize the full potential of the KEFs I would look for a streamer $2k and up.
I would forget USB out of a mac mini into the Hegel, the jitter will compromise what the rest of the system can do.
Hardwiring (no wifi) will be superior to keep the noise down. I even went to the length to remove two network switches that were splitting signals and when to a home run from the router directly to my streamer and got a noticeable improvement which was a very inexpensive upgrade. Many of the dedicated high end streamers don't even have a wifi option and they do it for a reason.
I personally run Isoacoustic feet on my speakers and subs. I have a floating hardwood floor and the aftermarket feet are worth the investment esp. for the subs. If you have hard floors give them a try. Not sure what the result would be over carpeted flooring. Maybe another user could advise us?
Bottom line is you have a fantastic system and a $2K+ investment in a really good streamer IMO will bump up your SQ by 20% or maybe more. Airplay is your weak link.
If you want to try the shallow end of the pool--first try Tidal connect with a free trial. Tidal connect is HQ audio, similar but different to the high rez Apple music option. Connect your H590 directly to your network via the Lan port and once your Hegel is on your personal network you can bypass airplay and play Tidal connect directly from your network. This will be a OMG moment where the soundstage will get wider, deeper and the bass will be MUCH cleaner. Good luck and cheers.
I'd agree that BluOS provides a very good UI, but IMO Roon is even better. For BluOS, you need a BlueSound device. You can install Roon Core on your Mac Mini then control it from your iPhone or laptop. One thing I do really like about BluOS is its programmable IR remote capabilities.
1. Any iOS device (phone or tablet) will send the correct sample rate of a streamed or onboard file via the hardwire Lightning or USB-C port. (AirPlay resamples the signal)
2. It's all about the DAC, if it has an input buffer, jitter and clocking are filtered and corrected, via SPDIF or USB (isolated and different circuits ideally, but sourced from the buffer. Use an external one!
3. When comparing streamers any built in DAC (and it's implementation) is probably the difference in sound. (or the power supply)
I didn’t do my homework and realize he already has streaming capability. Follow ricks advice for a no cost way to trial a better streamer. I expect you will like the results, then you can dive down the rabbit hole.
You might consider purchasing a used Innuos Pulse Mini if you can find one under $1k. From my experience, it sounds better than the temporarily owned DMP-A6. However, you might need to invest in a Linear Power Supply on top of it.
In case y'all didn't know, all streamers are essentially SBC computers ( modded gaming itx boards, hidden away, etc). It looks to me like some of you boys are getting robbed dropping 10k, 20k, etc on such streamers by vultures taking advantage of your pc hardware/software knowledge gaps.
- Any dac worth its salt should have a ASIO optimized driver for your PC. Install it and ENABLE ASIO, for starters!
- Improve the overall power and ethernet infrastructure for all your components, i.e., dedicated power line, power filter, ethernet filter, jitterbug, etc..or build a audio optimized PC from scratch.
After you do such things, I'll eat my hat if you heard any "improvements" from a vulture priced streamer over audio optimized PC infrastructure.
A PC will also give full flexibility for all kinds of software tweaks, etc. You won't be locked in with some crappy glitchy software on some thieving vulture's 20k "streamer".
@deep_333A PC will also give full flexibility for all kinds of software tweaks, etc. You won't be locked in with some crappy glitchy software on some thieving vulture's 20k "streamer".
Granted some of these streaming servers are overpriced. However holding up a PC and Windows as the magic answer and calling all others crappy, glitchy software uncovers a significant "knowledge gap" on your part when it comes to operating systems.
Granted some of these streaming servers are overpriced. However holding up a PC and Windows as the magic answer and calling all others crappy, glitchy software uncovers a significant "knowledge gap" on your part when it comes to operating systems
Sure, sure, carry on bro! May the exquisite sound land on ya from the "streamer" like never before.
Ok, there are getting to be too many “streamers are just PCs” in this thread. The proof to those of us that have tried most everything is the difference between a PC or MAC and a good (at the bottom end Blue stream) is simply startling. The difference gets bigger as you go to $2k to $5K to $10K to $15K, and finally above $20K, assuming you have a commiserate system. Common sense required here.. don’t pair a $2K streamer with a $1K system. Admittedly there are a few techies that have put thousands into cleaning up their network and PC and have gotten pretty good results… but this is a waste of enormous time and money for most of us (my career was in IT… like director of IT for global high tech companies… with the background to understand this stuff).
Over the years I have modified PCs… shutting down all extraneous background tasks, using special software, running my Mac on batteries and until I bought a dedicated streamer the sound was ok, but my first dedicated streamer was finally like a piece of high end audio equipment. Each increment of investment (carefully researched to be best of class… Aurender) bested the lower level models. Like some folks pointed out, it’s the source! Unless it is noise free then the dynamics and noice floor are compromised. It is like every other piece of audio equipment… it matters. Just because it doesn’t sound logical doesn’t mean it isn’t true.
This is a pursuit better pursued by listening than applying logic… well unless you have a tremendous amount of experience with the high end. The first high end digital cable I stuck in between my transport and DAC about thirty years ago destroyed any desire for me to go out on a limb with logic on why it shouldn’t matter by logic. It just does, and every audiophile and high end audio company knows it.
Clearly you're a smart person and had a lot of smart people working for you. Here's something to think about. You say noise is crucial to audio performance. Surely transmitting and storing audio data isn't as important as the data of the multinational corporations that you worked for. Yet did you ever suggest or did your team ever employ 'audiophile' servers, switches or cables in a corporate network? I'm guessing no. Commercial, off the shelf hardware is perfectly capable of storing data and transmitting it from point A to point B without errors - whether it's files, audio or video streams.
This is a pursuit better pursued by listening than applying logic…
I agree that you can (and should) apply listening... but you also need to apply logic. Control the variables and make sure that it's a valid listening test with a level playing field. I think it's pretty reasonable that you should ensure that your outcomes aren't influenced by, say, the price or appearance of a component.
I think an important part of this is knowing your limitations. For example, having a good understanding of what jitter actually sounds like (link) or the audible effects of transmission errors in digital cables (link). Also understanding the limits of your perception of distortion (link) and noise (link). Even knowing the limits of your hearing acuity (link) and detecting frequency response deviations (link).
I sincerely believe that we need to use listening and logical reasoning to make the best decisions on what equipment is actually worth buying.
I’m not aware of evidence that rules out difference in sound between streamer models, but counting on this piece of kit in a music playback chain to make a “next level” difference in sound is a pretty dubious gamble based on how streamers and human hearing work.
I’m also not aware of a streaming service that discloses source info for each track/album it provides; this is not an insignificant detail since a huge number of albums have been remastered. If you are being provided with recent remasters or files that are otherwise likely compressed in dynamic range by your streaming service, then your source files are where the most considerable improvement could be. Either that or equipment to properly process your digital signal specific to your room (DSP), but to get either of those as turnkey would be very expensive.
There are presently no published / accessible studies that demonstrate audible differences between streamer models (vs., e.g., speakers). In buying a streamer, the only surefire thing you pay for = software support and the pleasure of the user interface (touch screen and/or smartphone app), and you hope that the manufacturer keeps up with iOS / Android updates if using a phone app.
I’ve had that very investment (trusting a company to keep the user interface up to date) go bad on me, which is why I now stick with open source for a transport OS. I will not use a streaming service that doesn’t provide source/master metadata for its music catalogue. If you’re unwittingly feeding remastered files of compromised dynamic range into your system, it would a fool’s errand to try to improve things with a fancy streamer.
A good question to ask before trying to take your system to the “next level” is “What do I perceive to still be missing?” based on noteworthy experience(s) from music in your life. Otherwise it can be putting money on the fork with which you stab into the dark ;)
Interesting conversation. @benanders@yagewhat streamers have you owned/used? Yage it looks like you’re using a Raspberry Pi in your main system - I’m assuming this is still the case, yes?
Yes - still using a Raspberry Pi, first with the 3 B+ when it was released and most recently the 4 B. I’ve tried multiple OSes as well - piCorePlayer, Volumio, DietPi, OSMC - and settled on moOde.
Spending more may have good odds that will deliver at least subjectively better results but each upgrade path is different. There may well be less expensive options that perform similarly better as well if one is willing to explore the options thoroughly.
Going on cost alone is easy if you have the funds but not necessarily the most cost effective approach. Technical folks know the devil is always in the details. I bet on better designs before I would on better parts alone. Really smart people can accomplish more for less.
Clearly you’re a smart person and had a lot of smart people working for you. Here’s something to think about. You say noise is crucial to audio performance. Surely transmitting and storing audio data isn’t as important as the data of the multinational corporations that you worked for. Yet did you ever suggest or did your team ever employ ’audiophile’ servers, switches or cables in a corporate network? I’m guessing no. Commercial, off the shelf hardware is perfectly capable of storing data and transmitting it from point A to point B without errors - whether it’s files, audio or video streams.
Its very doubtful that the average "Director of IT" goes through the rigor of atleast one EE degree from a ABET acredited school (or a computer engineering degree atleast padded with some EE tech electives). The latter kind is usually sitting somewhere else... slaving away in the engineering trenches, not serving as "Director of IT"
If he knew anything, he would know that a kickass audio optimized PC could be built for well under a 1000 bucks in 2023. Hence, he’s thoroughly convinced that as he goes up to 10k, 20k, 30k, etc, magic just descends on him, pours like the Niagara...Well, atleast he gets a beautifully milled chassis and some pretty knobs (jewelry, for sure). As for me, i can drop 20k, no problem (cash’s not the issue). But, i certainly despise the idea of a dumass robbing me/snickering away as he sells me crap that i have beat with a diy solution in my basement.
I intended (at some point) to create a tech talk thread on how to pick some components and do a few minor tweaks towards building a audio optimized PC/"streamer" (make it easier for some diy types who are newer to these things).. But, then considering the sheer amount of accountants and dealers peddling 20k streamers/plaguing this forum, i decided against it. If enough guys with ulterior motives gang up on ya, even a sincere knowledge share effort can turn ya into the "bad guy".
Some of these guys buying a 20k streamer must also have thoroughly incompetent DDCs/DACs, i suppose!!
If he knew anything, he would know that a kickass audio optimized PC could be built for well under a 1000 bucks in 2023. Hence, he’s thoroughly convinced that as he goes up to 10k, 20k, 30k, etc, magic just descends on him, pours like the Niagara...Well, atleast he gets a beautifully milled chassis and some pretty knobs (jewelry, for sure).
Once again, a measurementalist feigning objectivity tosses logic to the wind and resorts to an ad hominem, the perhaps laziest of all loigical fallacies:
Ad hominem ... Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
Once again, a measurementalist feigning objectivity tosses logic to the wind and resorts to an ad hominem, the perhaps laziest of all loigical fallacies:
Again... some of you guys apparently have completely incompetent distressed boxes for DDCs and DACs that only a 20k idiot box streamer can save them.
Interesting conversation. @benanders@yage what streamers have you owned/used? Yage it looks like you’re using a Raspberry Pi in your main system - I’m assuming this is still the case, yes?
The last streamer I owned was the Oppo Sonica DAC with a company-approved power supply modification. It’s still a fine DAC, but once the parent company killed the disc player lab in CA, the Sonica app and streamer functions failure rate became increasingly problematic until I was spending far more time dealing with freezes than listening to music. The DAC works and tests well enough that a used one can still sell for what I paid for the “whole package,” if not more - how often does that happen for audio kit, eh!?
Anyway, the Sonica “streamer” was supported for less than a year post-release, then every buyer was largely SOL. Since then I’ve had a few “loaner” streamers visit my system (purely for the curiosity of others - not for feeling need myself), some of considerably more cost and sophistication than the Oppo Sonica all-in-one. Blind testing didn’t result in anything consistent for the device owners, so I consider that there wasn’t [noticeable] audible difference in what various streamers were doing in my system. I purposefully omit brand/model names to prevent anyone online feeling need to dogpile to the contrary. To each their own on that matter.
Presently, I use a RPi for streamer and USB-to-DAC (have used one of the coax / TOSLINK-out hats too, which also was fine). I have a couple of 4b’s lying around but haven’t taken the time to swap out the 3b+ I started on. The 3b+ by design does have (minimal) USB bus issues in my use case, but a few split-second glitches here and there between tracks apparently aren’t enough to trigger my “FIX IT!” response. Another project for a holiday someday!
I should have said “freeware” not “open source” for the streamer OS, since there are many of the former for the RPi platform. If whichever service I’m using is discontinued, all I have to do is reformat an SD card. There are some very impressive streamers / processors on the market that use the RPi as the device’s computer. There’s probably something to be said for that ;)
Let’s not forget the intention here is not to argue whether streamers’ quality scales with device price (zero evidence for) or if there is audible difference between streamers (zero evidence for; limited evidence against). My point was there are more demonstrably sensible ways for OP to get audio kit performing better… as long as OP knows what “better” would be in the particular setup.
I think music source files of known parameters and/or DSP would be the most logistically sound (pun!) options here.
My experience has been that the streamer will need a separate DAC. The built in DACs just are not as good. I experience this both in the Blusound 2i and the innuous Mini MK3. There was a significant improvement for both when ran through a Shiit Byfrost. A high end streamer might be ok.
This is going to sound very ignorant....and I am uncertain if I clearly understand all of the streaming options....but what I use for home...
- Qobuz via 100 mbps over air internet to Fiio M11 Plus LTD balanced cable from the Fiio to the back of my Sony STR DA5700 ES receiver which feeds ML Ethos in a treated dedicated room....for me this sounds excellent.
Would an alternate streamer improve this chain?...and if so where would it go?
Built in DACs typically are not going to sound as good as external. The DAC in streamers I have had were not even close. Both the Bluesound 2i, and Innuous Mini MK 3 DAC could not compare to the Shiit Byfrost sound, especially on the low end bass. Both mid and highs were smoother on the Bifrost by a long shot. Someone on the forum who owns a Hegel H390 and external DAC would be better qualified to chime in if it is a recommended upgrade. I use a 100mbs wired connection which sounds great with no dropouts. If you use wireless, then be close to the router or have an extender if far away.
In the end, these devices are musical boxes of wires, so if you use a computer, a streamer or a Frankenstein version of a pie, it’s a stereo sound. I say this; put together a system that sounds good to you. Most of us do experiments and swap gear in and out. I know I have done this over decades of time. When it sounds right, keep it. I try hard to NOT make my hifi- rocket science.
I don’t own a streamer because it’s simply another venture down the digital rabbit hole. I’ve got turntables, and a dac. That’s enough digital for me. I’d rather invest into a stellar TT setup than digital. I’m not missing out on anything.
Very enlightening discussion based - mostly - on real experiences/comparisons. I was asking myself the same question years ago, and decided to invest in a good DAC first: MSB Platinum Signature, after an Acousence reclocker using USB to my MacBook Air. Whether I play Apple-Lossless or native DSD files, the sound is very detailed and clear, albeit - compared to my analog setup - a bit recessed. Before the MSB I was using an Auralic Aries streamer/bridge with my OPPO (as a DAC), streaming from Apple Airplay. The improvement in terms of musical quality by exchanging the OPPO for the MSB was dramatic indeed. It became even better, when I bought a new Macbbook Air (with M processor chip, which - I am told - allows for high-res music processing), connected by USB to the Re-clocker/DAC and left the Aries out completely. Now, that was one of the early Aries bridges, and I am sure, the current version is more technically up-to-date. However, I cannot see how a dedicated streamer would make a musical difference, that would justify the expense for an Aurender, or something in that class, as my current digital setup delivers very enjoyable music without any fatigue, while my internal Apple Music server allows for sufficient archiving and fast retrieval of my >1000 music files (meta-data are not of any importance to me). I find that a top-notch DAC makes a real difference, though, and that's where the money should go IMHO.
I myself have been going back n forth about a dedicated streamer also, but to be honest I have tried the Bluesound, Cambridge,iFi top of the line, but I stick to my dedicated laptop running Tidal, Qobuz through Audirvāna through Wadia DAC and Have not felt the need to spend $2k when not needed sonically wise. Just my 2 cents✌️🎶
these threads, and there are too many to count on this and various other forums, are a complete waste of time. Once you read the first one years ago the responses are always the same and go into 2 broad categories.
there is no reason they can make things better so therefore they don’t
I’ve heard it, I don’t care why, but it absolutely makes a difference
Like many here I've tried numerous DACs, streamers, cables, switches, routers, streaming services, etc. over the years so I have a strong opinion, but sharing it is also a waste of time because there are just as many who have the opposite opinion.
nobody is ever convinced of anything, nothing new is ever offered, just the same tired "discussion" rehashed over and over and over
which brings us to the same conclusion every single time. The only way to know is to try it and decide for yourself.
Agree with Herman. I've owned many DAC's and streamers over the years, PC based, entry level, mid tier and high end. The source rules in my experience. Maybe I'm totally delusional, but well chosen high end digital front ends sound much better to me. You need to live with the gear for awhile to really appreciate what its doing. A/B testing is faulty at best. Try things for yourselves and come to your own conclusions. If it sounds better to you and gets you closer to the music, it's better.
Ok reality check: A BlueSound Node can be had for a tenth the price of an Aurrnder. You can try the BlueSound and see if it helps, and then try the Aurender to see if the additional cost is justified for you. Even if you have to pay restoocking fees, that's a rounding error in the overall transaction. Conversely, if the value just isn't there, you just saved yourself $5,000. That's a win-win.
Check out the new Eversolo streamers. A6, A6 Master Edition and the A8. Starting at less than 1K. Great DAC, fantastic screen options. XLR, RCA, Digital outous, SSD slot, and much more.
As others have stated, streaming will definitely improve your audio quality.
I think that trying out inexpensive streaming options is a good way to get an understanding of what streaming is all about before dropping big bucks on a high end streamer. If you try out the Bluesound Node or even the $220 WIIM Pro Plus with the DAC in your Hegel 590, you will not only learn about streaming user interfaces, but you will also find out if your network is up to handling streaming, Chances are good that either of these options will sound better than using AirPlay. You can only go up in sound quality from there.
User interfaces for streamers are also part of the evaluation process for streamers. Some people, myself included, really like the Roon user interface. Since your Hegel H590 is Roon Ready, you can try out Roon for 14 days for free. If you have a computer that is connected to an Ethernet cable that can run Roon, you can install Roon on it and stream to your Hegel and see how it sounds. Using an existing computer to run Roon is not a long term solution, but the trial will demonstrate to you how Roon sounds and help you to determine if you like the Roon interface enough to buy a computer/server to go that route.
This is not the approach I take, because I am in search of the best possible sound and when I do lots of intermediate steps and it always ending up costing me more. But that is my personality and values.
I got into streaming early on and streamed using a Mac, PC heavily modified to be quiet, cheap streamers, then finally the enormous gap between my CD player and vinyl disappeared. I climbed from $3K to $5… auditioned $10, $13, and finally bought $22K. I research the heck out of stuff and carefully choose components at a given price level. I could have cut out a couple levels and jumped up to a cost at my average component level and saved time and money. But, as I said, this is me.
The sneak up slowly, dip your toe in as a very valid approach for many people.
I too am having trouble with streaming, I wish someone could explain to me the actual flow of data and how it gets into my system.
Have a Peachtree Audio Decco 125 Sky that has a streamer built in. It sends out a wifi address that uses a web page to connect to my wifi network using an app like Audio Pro then allows me to log into Qobuz and stream. I can also use Airplay to connect to the streamer directly. Using the link approach with the AP app has been a constant struggle, dropping the signal and losing control of the stream.
If I use the app approach the signal is coming directly from my main wifi signal and into the streamer and the app is just controlling the Qobuz and if I use Airplay my main wifi is connecting through my computer/phone and sending the data(not at the maximum resolution) to the streamer wifi signal directly. Using Qobuz directly on computer or phone connected directly to my main wifi soulds great, with no clitches. Bandwith is not an issue, usually at least 800mbps.
Would a better streamer connect directly to my main wifi and let me control it through bluetooth? Qobuz says next year they will allow me to connect directly from the app, assume this is how spotify connect works? Although I can select my output from Qobuz now (using Airplay?) Thanks in advance for any guidance.
Re: WiFi vs. wired or external streamer USB to DAC vs combo DAC and streamer the issue is the same: WiFi receivers and DACs generate a lot of electronic noise both inherently and via their power supplies. WiFi especially as it is also a transmitter.
it’s best to isolate each link in the chain.
So, for example, plugging your streamer into a WiFi satellite is just as good (signal dependent) as a direct line, assuming reasonable data speeds.
The benefit is that space of 4-5 feet.
if your super paranoid, you can even get a grounded surge protector for CAT6 cable from Amazon for $40. Not sure it would help signal, but might save equipment from a freak accident. (I would do this if your streamer is plugged into your router and then cable. That’s not that remote of an accident.)
Do you have separate 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz Wi-Fi networks set up on your wireless router? Sometimes connection problems between two devices can happen when they're roaming between the two frequency bands.
If using Roon (highly recommended) get a dedicated music server and for me it can down to interconnects and power cords. I went for a combined steamer DAC and solved all my streaming interupts and connection problems.
I have a streamer/dac, lumin x1, and A nucleus for roon. And this connects into my Gat cj pre-amplifier. The lumin is superb and using a separate Dac which I have I wanted to avoid due to all the additional interconnect crap and all the temptation to periodically replace the dac. I don’t find this necessary anymore and see no value in doing it. So the inclusion of a dac within the streamer in this case ideal and it took a while to find it and was well worth the search.
a Streamer does mystical things that most have no clue about. The nucleus houses an operating system necessary to operate roon. And then you got the endpoint within the streamer that again does mystical things to allow all the necessary machinations to transform Data flow coming in from the nucleus. I think it Hass to do with a bitstream and clocking and changing the compression rates and all kinds of crazy stuff and no one really understands except those few who actually do.
Do you need a streamer to do quality work on your music? probably yes.
I appreciate all of the responses. Now that it is clear that I do in fact need a streamer to take really complete my system. I am curious if there is a numerical percentage that could be attached to the level of improvement I would experience if I were to go from Airplay to a dedicated device such as a Lumin D2?
I am still a bit of a novice when it comes to all of the streaming platforms but will venture out and give the others such as Roon a try. I hope to report back in a few months with a solid conclusion on my findings and an awesome streamer to boot!
Give Roon a try first. Install Roon Core on your mac mini and link to Qobuz or Tidal from it. Then use your Hegel as Roon end point. It will be an improvement over airplay with more coherent and clear presentation.
Then if you want to try a streamer, Lumin U series (pure streamers) is a good starting point. The D2 is a streamer/DAC combo by the way. Lumin is Roon ready and you’ll be able to use it as a Roon end point or use its UI which unfortunately is pretty clunky. All this is easy to set up.
The real improvement and a big step up will be when you use a streamer connected to an outboard DAC. Your Hegel built in DAC is decent enough to start with though. It’s fun to explore. Huge potential there depending on how much you’re willing to spend. Enjoy the journey!
Not sure if installing roon is going to be of value for the sound quality unless you use some of the dsp included as part of Roon, which I don’t find very appealing. I think the overlay of this on top of qobuz maybe on the neutral side.
Streaming direct from tidal or qobuz is just as good or maybe even better. Also the lumin Interface is quite good as far as sound is concerned, although the Interface itself is horrifying to use and requires a bit of a learning curve, and roon is so much better and easier to deal with.
The lumin ap I'm not sure you knew this but was designed by monkeys. I just wish they would've spent more time and considered human involvement when using it because I think it has promise due to sound quality being a little bit better than roon.
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