For me it was a combination of experience from trial and error and learning over time as well as cost. If I had to put a number on it, it would be 60% experience and 40% money, but there is definitely a minimum amount to be spent to get satisfaction and that varies by individual. For some a little Bluetooth speaker does the trick and for some not even a 7-figure system brings satisfaction.
Did your system getting better the more money you spent or more experience you gained?
This is something that wanted to ask folks. Initially I said I would never spend x amount of dollars in this audio journey. 20 years later I’m here and did what I said I wouldn’t but I’m happier than ever. Best system to this date. But it wasn’t about money only. I gained knowledge on what was possible and the quality and design of the gear I wanted. I see people just throw money into audio and never be happy or satisfied. I think that happens because they don’t think for themselves as well as have the resources? Thoughts ?
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Agree with @mapman. It’s synergy not monies spent. Spend wise and select components wisely. | |
Both. I have, in the very beginning tried to minimize cost and maximize effort (gaining experience) and found I wasted more money by trying to save money… I would try going low cost and just ended up buying three intermediate components and the final one. I definitely never invest less than 2x or more on each upgraded component… I have learned that is a great way to be very disappointed. However any purchase that was not hugely researched and considered in the context of my system has not been as effective either. So, you really need both to build better and better cost effective systems. I suspect how much time you have / money you make strongly enters the picture here as well. | |
Great responses. I think l got to a point where I tried to learn as much as possible then I ramped the spending up more. I was extremely careful with the last 2 purchases. The Infigo method 4 & 6. But I got to demo first and that was the key. Trying before I buy. I was able to go amp source cables one company and it worked extremely well! But you can’t just spend a lot of money and get it right based on cost. | |
Anyone who has watching Danny Richie from GR-Research has seen first hand that spending more money on audio does NOT ALWAYS equal better performance or even better parts. I think it’s naive to think that it does, but it is a natural inclination to think that way because often times spending more money DOES bring better performance. Having said that, there are many factors which would contribute to better sound with synergy being one, individual hearing ability as well as having a trained ear as two more, the "I got more expensive new gear so it must be better" factor being another and so may others etc, etc. I think experience would be the far more important factor as well as knowing one’s self. Taste in sound is another important factor and so is the degree of arrogance or objectivity and open-mindedness (internally) one has to recognize when listening to gear. | |
There is two kind of audiophiles at the two extreme limits... We dont have the same budget... Those with no budget limit... Those with a strict budget limit...
Audiophile experience ask not only for much time to create it but in my case acoustic knowledge ... I am on a strict buget... Someone with no limit budget will put emphasis on the gear design and price... Generally the priciest, the better ... ( they are exception as mike lavigne dedicated room ). It is easier to buy than to experiment with a necessary big amount of time... For most people with a strict budget i cannot imagine a real audiophile experience without emphasis put on mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls... And you cannot afford it without experiments if you are on a low budget ...Costlier upgrades are out of choices.. The good fortune of being without unlimited budget was that i was absolutely in the obligation to learn the essentials and experiment : Acoustics was, i discovered it ,the main factor of audiophile experience not price tag... I completely ignore that 12 years ago as most ... Here people with an unlimited budget but a limited judgment will attack me to say that i advocate a falsehood: that gear design dont matter... This is false , i could bought better gear design for my speakers system if i could afford it easily, gear design quality matters ... But my audiophile experience became so good with low cost speakers (modified for sure) that i feel lucky... No frustration and a S.Q. with a low cost ratio impossible to beat...if i can afford better speakers than those i own now in a real acoustic room as i had one year ago , for sure i will improve it ... i wrote my piece for people with low budget.... learn about electrical, mechanical and especially acoustical control... The main stopgap in audio is a lack of knowledge and a lack of acoustics experiments way more than the gear price tags ...
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Personally I went with my gear because I felt like the electronics pushed the limits. The design elimates all noise and distortion by design. The Dac literally has min heat sinks between each chip to eliminate heat and distortion. The cable are on balance all of the spectrum. It’s detailed without being clinical or analytical. It’s built to be that way so as I learned more about what it did and I demoed the sound I went ahead and went with it at the increased price. It had synergy easily so it’s was worth the extra money and it delivers sound that I can’t wait to get home to. You can’t randomly throw money in this hobby and get results it takes education and work. | |
you are not born with a high level of system building knowledge and great judgment. it’s a process. it’s starts with a passion and hunger to have great music reproduction and a love of music. the way it works is that (1) at the entry level you do need a minimal level of gear to be able to apply your knowledge and get a decent result. (2) but then past that threshold set up and careful system synergy becomes much more significant than big investments in gear. modest decent well put together systems are better than better gear not effectively assembled. then (3) better or really top level gear or a great room does raise the ceiling for how great things can be, but are no guarantee. think of it as a kinda ratcheting process. where you maybe take a couple steps forward, a step back learning, another step forward, then sideways, then forward......etc. etc. as you learn and make decisions hopefully they mostly are good ones. but it’s not linear. there are mistakes if you really get after it. and if you are afraid to reach a little bit then you get stuck on a plateau and some of the passion leaves for a bit. great set-up plus great gear is what takes you furthest. and mostly it takes years or decades to accomplish that. a lifetime process. | |
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Short answer is yes, the more money that I spend, the better things sound. However when one arrives at the point of diminishing returns, I don’t see much point in playing with additional changes, as everything seems to be a lateral move. Also, since I am newly retired, even though I could afford to jump into another price tier, I’ll just sit it out for now, as I am still psychologically adjusting to the absence of a steady paycheck. | |
Great post by mike lavigne who explained the journey process better than i could with my fond use of new words as " the three embeddings controls" after the necessary right synergetical choice of the gear pieces...😁 I am very glad that we think the same at the two extreme of the cost and design quality scale... My system is good, well chosen but cost peanuts compared to his , which is probably the better system here and one of the better in the world... The fact we think the same if i judge by what he said is confirmed by his post i paraphrase here : audiophile audio is a determined learning mind thing more than a price tags race and collections ...
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I never forget being curious and borrowing a used top of the line Nakamichi tape deck back in 1979. It cost at least four times what I ever would consider (could reasonably afford ) putting it in my system. I must have listened with my mouth hanging open and unable to speak for a very long time, shocked how good it sounded. It sounded so many times better than the highest rated (Stereo Review) tape deck I had recently bought… like cheap transistor radio vs real high fi. I became an audiophile that day. | |
@ghdprentice i was sonically destroyed one day by a soulution/raidho system in a soundproof and measured home listening cottage about 8 years ago. He had it perfectly measures and cabled. Put me in a matrix. I knew that that s]day they possibilities of audio in the high end. That was a revelation. Now I’m as happy with what I have as I have been since that day. Money alone doesn’t do it. Matching, synergy, source, room | |
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@noromance i get it. I used to have tube system. I got some nice kt88’s and it was singing even better. I’m pretty set thought at this point. | |
@mitch4t yes that part all day! | |
@audioman58 thats what I talk about. 50k. Really good synergy sounds as good as 100k. Easy | |
Somebody that has a limited budget on these threads always thinks that he has magical insights into being an audiophile that others don’t have, which is far from the truth. I know many people (in audio clubs and in virtual settings) that have money to spend on cars and audio equipment (including me) that know it takes smarts and money to get the infrastructure right 1st, which is the room (which can cost many thousands of dollars) including treatments and electrical before you spend a nickel on any gear. Now I do think it’s foolish to buy a set of expensive speakers and put them in a room crammed next to a sofa, can’t bring them out from the wall, or put in a non-treated room, then you will never get the performance of the system and just wasting your money. | |
So much for a “Happy New Year” tone 😅 | |
Fingerprints are unique as is our journey through life. I have enjoyed my journey and it's been a long journey starting with my first stereo (MCS from JcPenny) in the '80s. And in my experience the more I've spent the better sound I have experienced.
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@mapman ....+10 to the tenteenth....*G* ;) Experience can make one either 'discriminating'.....or severely jaundiced.... *LOL* | |
We pay for experience in only two ways... Money.... Some must buy and collect many pieces of gear to learn, it is fun if you can afford it... I could not... I paid by reading , experimenting and gave my only cash money : my time .... I can assure you that a low cost system can make someone happy if he know what to do ... It is more fun to learn and be creative than to purchase one piece each month... Or to buy a costly piece each few years... Nothing replace understanding not even money... Some few here can afford the best money can give and be also creative and study and experiment ... But reading here for 8 years now i know it is the very few ... most dream to upgrade at high cost ... I listen music now...A lot of music...
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Mmmm, by situation I've had to make the latter work harder later on; but have gained such that I can make the $'s work better when I opt to do so. If I had more of the former, I could make better choices. Not necessarily Super SOTA, mind you....just ones' that would scratch my particular 'itch' in their places... ;) | |
Experience saves me money. Ultimately I can get better sound if I spend more but I have found there’s an upper limit to my ability to enjoy. Once the sound quality reaches a certain threshold I’m basically there, so no reason to push it further. Mostly what drives me to try new things now is just curiosity. What will it sound like if I do something novel? Even if I limit myself to moderately priced components, experimenting can get expensive quickly. And that’s where experience comes in again. I’ve learned to think more and build less. Think about every reason why I shouldn’t try something, and be as sure as possible there’s not a better way to do it before I actually start ordering stuff and cutting wood. Thinking about assembling a new system can be as much fun as actually doing it! Meanwhile I'm blissfully enjoying my current system, occasionally trying a minor tweak that doesn't require me to buy anything. | |
Exactly my own experience said in a more simple and direct way than by me... Thanks...😊
I called "the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold "the level where i am... Passed this threshold we race and go toward the "maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold " ... Most people are not there anyway...It takes a dedicated room and very costlier gear...over 100,000 bucks for the room only ...Most people are unable to do a dedicated room by themselves at low cost ... It takes too much time anyway ... The good news is that the minimal threshold is not a stopgap at all... It is all we need to enjoy music with no serious limitations... An unnatural timbre, a bad imaging, a narrow soundstage , are serious limitations... I dont suffer of any of these defects with my speakers... ( active low cost one completely modified ) My headphone are TOP audiophile when optimized with a soundscape out of mu head when the recording is well done in church or in studio...... The only factor that matter for most of us anyway is the ratio S.Q. /price.. The winner is someone who pay the least and enjoy the better result ( in a relative way with the investment cost for sure) Then i win ... 😁 And being bothered by the sound , thinking always about it instead of listening music is annoying... My money goes now for music... How do you think cost 40 albums of the musician you love ? And i love hundred of musicians... I will never buy 40 dacs instead ... It is ridiculous... 😊 Guess which is the bigger possible improvement a dac or a tuned room ? Those who answer the dac had learn nothing in acoustics...
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Exactly. This is one of the personal attributes you need to understand about yourself and the folks that are posting. What is your goal / personality / values? I am a fanatic, if I can find a way to get a small amount closer to the absolute sound (what that sounds like is also personal value. I get tremendous pleasure out of it. If I can put in another hundred hours or another $10K… then it is absolutely worth it to do both. I am happy to do without a new car or fancy 🧻. Kind of the definition of an audiophile… frequently considered a disease, as opposed to a passionate pursuit or interest where rational boundaries exist.
Not surprisingly, I am like this about anything I pursue. Photography, bicycling, wine. I think most folks have an approach to all their pursuits and it is typically similar across the board. My motto has been “do or do not” for far longer than Yoda has been around. | |
Reading your posts, you seems to have done your job of informing yourself well... Anyway we are all different... Myself i am like you passionnate...I want a good sound too but i take another road...Budget was tight then no other choice than learning much about mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings controls with no cost, then homemade... My passion for few years was acoustics experiments... I am done with it now and my first passion is music with a good sound at last... I listen music all day reading or not... 😁 I dont doubt your dedication... And your experience will be useful for those who want to go where you aim for... Not one of those people will take me seriously anyway....My own goal is already reached and now i know enough to do it again for the third time in any conditions and at any price... For me now it was minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold at peanuts cost... Give me 20,000 bucks i know how to reach near the maximum threshold with that.... I trust you after reading your posts then i had no reservation about your seriousness... Simply we take divergent road...I am happy with what i learned... And we spoke for different crowds or different needs...
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Confusing acoustics concepts and experiment with room acoustic by most people here made for them impossible to understand what i means by: "Minimally acoustical satisfying threshold"... They then goes on a rant about the "ultimate goal" or "absolute sound" ...Meaning very costlier and always pricier design in a race ...😁 All people,most of them dont have this budget, which goal anyway as it is presented is non sensical because it is presented beside acoustics centered on the gear price tag and design mainly ... Why this is so? Because conflating and confusing Acoustics with an (s) with room acoustic, they see no other solution to improve their system than costlier one... They cannot imagine what electrical and mechanical and acoustical controls at low cost can do ... i had the "overall enjoyment" of what i have at peanuts cost thanks to basic knowledge ... My system is not a stopgap though... Minor upgrades + the three embeddings controls, was enough to gave me "minimally satisfying acoustical threshold... Where timbre is relatively natutral... where dynamics is relatively satisfying... Where soundstage are way over the two speakers plane on all side sencompassing my listener position and almost being 270 degree in some recording not less all the time in all recording ...And my soundfield is from headphone out of my head... Where imaging is pin pointed enough for me to hear each musician in his own sphere of sound... I call this a "minimal threshold" for acoustic satisfaction ...
Is it possible to upgrade near the maximal satisfying acousticl threshold from the near listening field and from my small acoustical corner with my TOP headphones and low cost modified speakers ? Yes at 15 times my basic Speakers/headphone price which are under 1000 bucks ... I will need a new dedicated room in top of that 15 times higher price increase... I cannot afford it one in my smaller house anyway... Why am i not frustrated and i dont feel in a stpgap position then ? Because between the minimal and maximal acoustical satisfying threshold , there is a difference of degree not of "nature" as suggested erroneously by gear marketing... A timbre experience is natural relatively less natural or more natural or not at all ... When you use acoustics and other embeddings controls you learn how to do it relatively good with what you can afford... With no basic knowledge many high cost system sound unnatural even compared to my low cost one ... Then i refuse to spoke to people here separating system in low-Fi mid fi and high fi as most did... I distinguish minimally acoustically satisfying one and maximally acoustically satisfying one ... There is two thresholds to reach not so much three separate kind of gear... Read me right i know perfectly well that low fi exist and mid fi and high fi gear too ... But these ranking is completely misleading for any serious acoustics purpose...My system is low-fi with speakers and mid-fi with headphone by the way ...The two are satisfying ...
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In a word, adressing someone the question : How cost you system ? or is it a low-fi one or mif-fi one or high end one make way less sense than most people think in audio threads... The right question is how do we optimize or improved what we already own...😎 Judging other with price tags level classification is childish... Is your timbre right, dynamics acceptable ? imaging pin point ? Soundstaging immersive ? These questions are meaningful... We afford what we budget for...For sure... But the resulting general acoustic result come from the optimization knowledge more than often most misleading upgrading purchase near the level were we already are...We mistakenly conflate often the solution for a problem with an upgrade...Sometimes it is sometimes not so much...And even when it is necessary to upgrade ,without optimization, it is not enough at all ...Then another upgrade will be deceptive replacing optimization process by a new piece of gear dont work well or dont work completely ... ... Acoustics is not limited to room acoustic ...Speakers is also an acoustical designed object ...How do we improve a low cost one ? How do we optimize a high cost one ? The goal is optimization process which are necessary for any system at any price anyway , the goal is not the deceptive race to "absolute sound" and if it is your goal, begin to buy your dedicated at least 100,000 bucks room for the 100,000 bucks speakers ... If you are not ready to do so, forget "absolute sound" unlike marketers who are inducing people to throw their money in an illusive race, and think about acoustics, electrical and mechanical embeddings controls instead , homemade or not ...This will serves all with what they already have at any price... I apologize for my written "word" which = one page almost...😁😊
If you want to understand WHY acoustics( which is not only mere room acoustic) matter more than price tags listen to this :
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As you can see with my video above, i do not discard all upgrade as deceptive... Some are not ... BACCH is in this category... I could buy BACCH and use it with my headphone as they are now, they are HIGH END headphone, and i could call then my system near maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold... I will do it when i can afford it by the way... 😊 Because of my mechanical crosstalk installation among others embeddings controls i almost had some of the spatial qualities the director of "absolute sound" described in the video above with the BACCH filters when he described his perception with the Pink Floyd album i own... it is easy to verify... Then if the proof is in the pudding i already enjoy a minimal satisfaction acoustic othreshold with low cost active speakers i heavily modify for sure... Then if someone talk to me claiming that nobody can have a relatively good system at low price , he deceive himself and dont know what he spoke about ... my only costlier upgrade will be the BACCH filters... Psychoacoustics rule audio and gear not the reverse... Price tags matter less than basic knowledge ...
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