Did your system getting better the more money you spent or more experience you gained?

Thanks for your confirmative experience about crosstalk universal obstructive effect...

 

Most people have no idea how and why all stereo systems are flawed...

And Speakers sellers wont say it guess why ?

😊

Add to crosstalk destructive effect , no vibrations/resonance controls, no electrical grid noise floor control and no dedicated acoustic room...

Buying costly dac or a costlier turntable will not solve all these problems repeating the false mantra that the source is everything.

What is the source ? Not the dac nor the turntable but the specific recording trade-off choices process we must translate with our speakers/room/ears...

What make this acoustic translation from the recording SOURCE process difficult ?

Crosstalk in any stereo system and lack of electrical,mechanical and acoustical controls.. ( i called them embeddings controls because i used many homemade devices embedded in these working mechanical,electrical and acoustical working dimensions)

Many people dont even know what is the source of information they think it is their dac... 😁

The primary source are the choices of the recording engineer in each albums different form, which must be acoustically translated and delivered by your speakers/room/ears... Your system convey this acoustic information and impede or/and help it in many ways thats all ...

The source is the acoustic information chosen and related to the recording process and this is this SOURCE which we are pleased to listen to and experience with our system/room/ears ...The dac is like a cable or an amplifier a way to convey, more or less well , this acoustic chosen set of trade off choices by the recording engineer which are this specific album source ...

The source of my life is not ONLY my actual body but FIRST my parents bodies encounter and genetic trade-off so to speak...

In audio people dont think this way about the source because their focus is on the gear possible next upgrade not on acoustics nor about embeddings controls to recreate the acoustic source : the acoustic specific atmosphere of each album...

They think that a piece of gear create the sound... 😁😊

A piece of gear contribute thats all... The sound acoustic information exist already in each album then how can my speakers/room/ears can translate it in the best way ? A change of cable or dac will help or not but could hardly be the solution about an acoustic problem ...

I like your three speakers idea and creativity... Congratulations...

 

@mahgister

I’m with you on the crosstalk reduction. I haven’t heard BACCH, but I’ve set up the physical crosstalk barriers and had my mind blown, and now I’m using my own 3 speaker array method to deal with comb filtering caused by interaural crosstalk. This is my main area of audiophile interest now. Interaural crosstalk is the 600lb gorilla in the room to my ears. 2 speakers playing across your head is a seriously compromised setup for anything other than sounds panned hard left to one speaker or the other, and I don’t think there’s any way to correct it with recording methods or mixing/mastering - unless some kind of crosstalk reduction is mixed into the recording - which means it’ll only work in very specific listening configurations. Multi-channel recordings with 5.1 or 7.1 setups bring their own headaches, although I think those could be solved with a specially designed room, but only if the people who mix the recordings properly take advantage of what’s there. I know that many feel it’s a non-issue. Hence, Sonus Faber just put out a 2 channel speaker system for $750,000. You wouldn’t put that much into a system if you thought it was inherently flawed, I wouldn’t think

Synergy is defined as compatibility ...

It cannot be defined as the "best" possible component in relation to another component...

You need acoustic room condition optimal anyway to judge a system synergy ...

For many synergy is an end of the journey because they focus on the gear,not surprizing if they realize synergy defined as the optimum it is a gost ...But the gear synergy is only a starting minimum , a starting point  for the journey ...We learn how to embed a system and it takes time only after having a minimal synergy between parts...

When we say that 2 components are synergetical we means that they do not present evident incompatibility ...

Audio is not only merely about the gear but about acoustics and about electrical and mechanical embeddings controls of these synergetical components to begins with  ....

You are right completely ddgtt...

The problem is that synergy is only the starting point line ... We must learn way more to create a good system/room/ears experience ....

 

The fact that there is better gear than mine dont means that my optimized gear system cannot give me the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold....

When you get this MINIMUM acoustic qualities level you forgot sound so immersive music is...

If you cannot get it with a relatively low cost system , it is either a bad synergetical choice of gear pieces or it is a lack in the mechanical,electrical and acoustical workings controls...

I dont need to learn to be happy with my low cost system BECAUSE it is well chosen well embedded system under my control, then my system makes me happy and  then it is not a stopgap i am in the obligation to live with... No frustration in me  , on the opposite , i pity many who give away more money for not really better sound... And trust me they were numerous...My system value is 1000 bucks...

Knowledge is key not price tag...

Better gear is not the key, but knowing how to use any system at any price at his optimal level is...

Acoustics dont change his principles, nor the mechanical and electrical science  because we upgrade a piece of gear...Any piece of gear must be optimized at any price... No speakers beat their room and they all suffer from resonance ... No amplifiers can replace the electrical grid of the house...No interconnect can work without picking interferences ... Etc  Then adress that BEFORE upgrading ...And call that the key....

 

There will always be something better than you have. Once you think yo’ve got there you’ll bet bored and want more. Learn to be happy with what you have.

The ultimate goal coincide then with the ultimate pleasure in audio : learning acoustic and listening music...

Not buying, even if buying a new piece of gear is fun when it is necessary....😁

As you can see with my video above, i do not discard all upgrade as deceptive... Some are not ... BACCH is in this category...

I could buy BACCH and use it with my headphone as they are now, they are HIGH END headphone, and i could call then my system near maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold...

I will do it when i can afford it by the way... 😊

Because of my mechanical crosstalk installation among others embeddings controls i almost had some of the spatial qualities the director of "absolute sound" described in the video above  with the BACCH filters when he described his perception with the Pink Floyd album i own... it is easy to verify...

Then if the proof is in the pudding i already enjoy a minimal satisfaction acoustic othreshold with low cost active speakers i heavily modify for sure...

Then if someone talk to me claiming that nobody can have a relatively good system at low price , he deceive himself and dont know what he spoke about ...

my only costlier  upgrade will be the BACCH filters...

Psychoacoustics rule audio and gear not the reverse...

Price tags matter less than basic knowledge ...

 

 

 

In a word, adressing someone the question : How cost you system ? or is it a low-fi one or mif-fi one or high end one make way less sense than most people think in audio threads...

The right question is how do we optimize or improved what we already own...😎

Judging other with price tags level classification is childish...

Is your timbre right, dynamics acceptable ? imaging pin point ? Soundstaging immersive ? These questions are meaningful...

We afford what we budget for...For sure...

But the resulting general acoustic result come from the optimization knowledge more than often most misleading upgrading purchase near the level were we already are...We mistakenly conflate often the solution for a problem with an upgrade...Sometimes it is sometimes not so much...And even when it is necessary to upgrade ,without optimization, it is not enough at all ...Then another upgrade will be deceptive replacing optimization process by a new piece of gear dont work well or dont work completely ... ...

Acoustics is not limited to room acoustic ...Speakers is also an acoustical designed object ...How do we improve a low cost one ? How do we optimize a high cost one ?

The goal is optimization process which are necessary for any system at any price anyway , the goal is not the deceptive race to "absolute sound" and if it is your goal, begin to buy your dedicated at least 100,000 bucks room for the 100,000 bucks speakers ... If you are not ready to do so, forget "absolute sound" unlike marketers who are inducing people to throw their money in an illusive race, and think about acoustics, electrical and mechanical embeddings controls instead , homemade or not ...This will serves all with what they already have at any price...

I apologize for my written "word" which = one page almost...😁😊

 

If you want to understand WHY acoustics( which is not only mere room acoustic) matter more than price tags listen to this :

 

Confusing acoustics concepts and experiment with room acoustic by most people here made for them impossible to understand what i means by:

"Minimally acoustical satisfying threshold"...

They then goes on a rant about the "ultimate goal" or "absolute sound" ...Meaning very costlier and always pricier design in a race ...😁

All people,most of them dont have this budget, which goal anyway as it is presented is non sensical because it is presented beside acoustics centered on the gear price tag and design mainly ...

Why this is so?

Because conflating and confusing Acoustics with an (s) with room acoustic, they see no other solution to improve their system than costlier one...

They cannot imagine what electrical and mechanical and acoustical controls at low cost can do ...

i had the "overall enjoyment" of what i have at peanuts cost thanks to basic knowledge ...

My system is not a stopgap though...

Minor upgrades + the three embeddings controls, was enough to gave me "minimally satisfying acoustical threshold...

Where timbre is relatively natutral...

where dynamics is relatively satisfying...

Where soundstage are way over  the two  speakers plane on all side sencompassing my listener position and almost being 270 degree  in some recording not less all the time in all recording ...And my soundfield is  from headphone out of my head...

Where imaging is pin pointed enough for me to hear each musician in his own sphere of sound...

I call this a "minimal threshold" for acoustic satisfaction ...

 

Is it possible to upgrade near the maximal satisfying acousticl threshold from the near listening field and from my small acoustical corner with my TOP headphones and low cost modified speakers ?

Yes at 15 times my basic Speakers/headphone price which are under 1000 bucks ...

I will need a new dedicated room in top of that 15 times higher price increase... I cannot afford it one in my smaller house anyway...

Why am i not frustrated  and i dont feel in a stpgap position then ?

Because between the minimal and maximal acoustical satisfying threshold , there is a difference of degree not of "nature" as suggested erroneously by gear marketing...

A timbre experience is natural relatively less natural or more natural or not at all ...

When you use acoustics and other embeddings controls you learn how to do it relatively good with what you can afford...

With no basic knowledge many high cost system sound unnatural even compared to my low cost one ...

Then i refuse to spoke to people here separating system in low-Fi mid fi and high fi as most did...

I distinguish  minimally acoustically satisfying one and maximally acoustically satisfying one ... There is two thresholds to reach not so much  three separate  kind of gear... Read me right i know perfectly well that low fi exist and mid fi and high fi gear too ... But these ranking is completely misleading for any serious acoustics purpose...My system is low-fi with speakers and mid-fi with headphone by the way ...The two are satisfying ...

 

@maghister don’t get me wrong. Improving sound with less money is the key. But the overall enjoyment at what you can afford is the ultimate goal.

Reading your posts, you seems to have done your job of informing yourself well...

Anyway we are all different...

Myself i am like you passionnate...I want a good sound too but i take another road...Budget was tight then no other choice than learning much about mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings controls with no cost, then homemade...

My passion for few years was acoustics experiments... I am done with it now and my first passion is music with a good sound at last... I listen music all day reading or not... 😁

I dont doubt your dedication... And your experience will be useful for those who want to go where you aim for... Not one of those people will take me seriously anyway....My own goal is already reached and now i know enough to do it again for the third time in any conditions and at any price... For me now it was minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold at peanuts cost... Give me 20,000 bucks i know how to reach near the maximum threshold with that....

I trust you after reading your posts then i had no reservation about your seriousness... Simply we take divergent road...I am happy with what i learned... And we spoke for  different crowds or different needs...

@asctim , @mahgister   Exactly. This is one of the personal attributes you need to understand about yourself and the folks that are posting. What is your goal / personality / values? I am a fanatic, if I can find a way to get a small amount closer to the absolute sound (what that sounds like is also personal value. I get tremendous pleasure out of it. If I can put in another hundred hours or another $10K… then it is absolutely worth it to do both. I am happy to do without a new car or fancy 🧻. Kind of the definition of an audiophile… frequently considered a disease, as opposed to a passionate pursuit or interest where rational boundaries exist.   Not surprisingly, I am like this about anything I pursue. Photography, bicycling, wine. I think most folks have an approach to all their pursuits and it is typically similar across the board. My motto has been “do or do not” for far longer than Yoda has been around.

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Exactly my own experience said in a more simple and direct way than by me... Thanks...😊

 

I called "the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold "the level where i am...

Passed this threshold we race and go toward the "maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold " ... Most people are not there anyway...It takes a dedicated room and very costlier gear...over 100,000 bucks for the room only ...Most people are unable to do a dedicated room by themselves at low cost ... It takes too much time anyway ...

The good news is that the minimal threshold is not a stopgap at all...

It is all we need to enjoy music with no serious limitations...

An unnatural timbre, a bad imaging, a narrow soundstage , are serious limitations...

I dont suffer of any of these defects with my speakers... ( active low cost one completely modified )

My headphone are TOP audiophile when optimized with a soundscape out of mu head when the recording is well done in church or in studio......

The only factor that matter for most of us anyway is the ratio S.Q. /price..

The winner is someone who pay the least and enjoy the better result ( in a relative way with the investment cost for sure) Then i win ... 😁

And being bothered by the sound , thinking always about it instead of listening music is annoying... My money goes now for music...

How do you think cost 40 albums of the musician you love ?

And i love hundred of musicians...

I will never buy 40 dacs instead ... It is ridiculous... 😊

Guess which is the bigger possible improvement a dac or a tuned room ?

Those who answer the dac had learn nothing in acoustics...

 

 

Experience saves me money. Ultimately I can get better sound if I spend more but I have found there’s an upper limit to my ability to enjoy. Once the sound quality reaches a certain threshold I’m basically there, so no reason to push it further. Mostly what drives me to try new things now is just curiosity. What will it sound like if I do something novel? Even if I limit myself to moderately priced components, experimenting can get expensive quickly. And that’s where experience comes in again. I’ve learned to think more and build less. Think about every reason why I shouldn’t try something, and be as sure as possible there’s not a better way to do it before I actually start ordering stuff and cutting wood. Thinking about assembling a new system can be as much fun as actually doing it! Meanwhile I’m blissfully enjoying my current system, occasionally trying a minor tweak that doesn’t require me to buy anything.

 

 

 

We pay for experience in only two ways...

Money.... Some must buy and collect many pieces of gear to learn, it is fun if you can afford it...

I could not...

I paid by reading , experimenting and gave my only cash money : my time ....

I can assure you that a low cost system can make someone happy if he know what to do ...

It is more fun to learn and be creative than to purchase one piece each month...

Or to buy a costly piece each few years...

Nothing replace understanding not even money...

Some few here can afford the best money can give and be also creative and study and experiment ... But reading here for 8 years now i know it is the very few ...

most dream to upgrade at high cost ...

I listen music now...A lot of music...

 

 

Great post by mike lavigne who explained the journey process better than i could with my fond use of new words as " the three embeddings controls" after the necessary right synergetical choice of the gear pieces...😁

I am very glad that we think the same at the two extreme of the cost and design quality scale...

My system is good, well chosen but cost peanuts compared to his , which is probably the better system here and one of the better in the world...

The fact we think the same if i judge by what he said is confirmed by his post i paraphrase here : audiophile audio is a determined learning mind thing more than a price tags race and collections ...

 

 

There is two kind of audiophiles at the two extreme limits...

We dont have the same budget...

Those with no budget limit...

Those with a strict budget limit...

 

Audiophile experience ask not only  for much time to create it but in my case acoustic knowledge ...

I am on a strict buget...

Someone with no limit budget will put emphasis on the gear design and price... Generally the priciest, the better ... ( they are exception as mike lavigne dedicated room ). It is easier to buy than to experiment with a necessary  big amount of time...

For most people with a strict budget i cannot imagine a real audiophile experience without emphasis put on mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls... And you cannot afford it without experiments  if you are on a low budget ...Costlier upgrades are out of choices..

The good fortune of being without unlimited budget was that i was absolutely in the obligation to learn the essentials and experiment : Acoustics was, i discovered it ,the main factor of audiophile experience not price tag... I completely ignore that 12 years ago as most ...

Here people with an unlimited budget but a limited judgment will attack me to say that i advocate a falsehood:  that  gear design dont matter... This is false , i could bought better gear design for my speakers system if i could afford it easily, gear design quality matters  ...

But my audiophile experience became  so good with low cost speakers (modified for sure) that i feel lucky... No frustration and a S.Q. with a low cost ratio impossible to beat...if i can afford better speakers  than those i own now in a real acoustic room as i had one year ago , for sure i will improve it ...

i wrote my piece for people with low budget.... learn about electrical, mechanical and especially acoustical control... The main stopgap in audio is a lack of knowledge and a lack of acoustics experiments way more than the gear price tags ...