dacs that I have had in my system - a listing

@deep_333 

And you’re explaining this to me because?

Great list! Legit proof (needed by some out there) that all dacs are not created equal. I’m interested in knowing more about your comment above-

“dacs are set up in a/b and even a/b/c configuration, easily switchable to allow comparison when needed”

Can you share more on how your going about that and how you avoid any additional tonal coloration or distortion in the approach?
In my system I can switch between four dacs at a time from a single source with no noticeable affects (once level matched)- just curious about your approach.

@designsfx ,

- All DACs sound the same to guys with incapable speakers, compromised speaker/listener positioning and a lack of room treatments.

- Above a certain price point, DACs get into the intricacies of soundstage depth, layering and spatial nuance, which in turn, adds to its perceived detail retrieving capability.

- Guys with the above mentioned deficiencies won't hear much of a difference.

IME, well designed/higher end concentric driver designs (if placed optimally in a treated room) are more conducive to this level of detail perception. Other types of designs have been a hit/miss. 

Thanks. Great price on that other site for anyone looking for one.

@vinylvalet Was not to be my primary dac long term, already had something in the works, and it caught me off guard. I have a 2nd system I was thinking of putting together and thought I’d use it there - making any reasons to try and keep it..., unfortunately that’s not going to happen. Need to part wtih it and some other gear for other unplanned expenditures that just came up at home. Gonna end up likely selling my other beloved 50w Class A SS amp too, and a bunch of other stuff having to let go of. House rules here, no extra-extra spares lying around - argh. No extra speakers or parts left, all other cables gone now too. Limited storage and any overlap or duplication eventually has to go here. I’m certain I’ll regret selling both and wish I had it back later.Weeks back I recently picked up a new custom built Border Patrol SE-I, and wanted to also try that for a different configuration in my main system I use, covering costs for that too. Would absolutely love to keep it around that’s for sure. Can’t have it all I guess, had to list it - bleh, waaaahhh, not allowed to be spoiled here.For the $, that BF 2/64 is something I know I’m absolutely going to regret parting with, oh well. It’s a neat dac though. Thanks for asking.

@decooney If you like the Bifrost 2/64 so much, why are you selling it?

"I still have it for now as a reference dac to rotate back to compare."

@jjss49 decooney i did not... long long story with my efforts over the decades trying to find a high efficiency speaker i can truly live with long term ...but despite my efforts, i continue to strike out after so so many at bats... just too much transducer distortion for my ears in some form, in each case.

If you have not tried it yet, the new (redesigned) Klipsch Cornwall IV is known to be a bit of a microscope for noticing differences in component changes. Paired with a nice 300B amp like yours, could be kinda fun. I helped a few friends design/build cabinets for three pairs of revealing Altec Onken replicas, too big for my place. But, would be nice to try some Cornwall IVs. I can imagine they could reveal differences in dac testing and sound nice too. Checking with my local dealer to go listen, I’m interested in hearing the midrange they offer. A big fan of the old style...wall of sound for amp and dac testing... :) 

@jjss49 

Thanks for the overview of your testing Odyssey. I must admit to a much shorter list, but similar conclusion. 

One dac to mention for the $, value, and somewhat in the neutral-clarity camp is the new Schiit Bifrost 2/64, R2R chip (non-tube) with non-oversampling / MegaComboBurrito filter switch. Internally runs two Texas Instruments dac processors chips.

As mentioned prior, myself@decooney @wolf_garcia @hilde45 and maybe a few others here owning one and enjoying it. I selected the BF 2/64 dac between my upgraded MHDT Orchid and the new build of my BorderPatrol SE-I, and super glad I tried it. I still have it for now as a reference dac to rotate back to compare.

There are few folks out there on Head-Fi, SBAF, and other camps who like it more than Gungir and the venerable Yggy. The owner of Schiit replaced Yggy with it, for his personal desktop use. Also, has the new Unison USB setup in it too, if you like USB. I lot of value packed in one USA made unit.

If you like a bit more sound stage, openness, separation of instruments, appreciate a bit more detail, even in NOS filter mode, I like it better than my MHDT Orchid, no matter which tube I ran in Orchid (because I run an all-tube system).  With all solid state, I might prefer the Orchid, hard to say. To me, the new Schiit BF 2/64 is  more true to the sound.The switchable MCB filter mode gives mild bass boost and upper frequency boost in my system - for whatever reason.  While I prefer NOS mode, some with less sensitive speakers or laid back system might like MCB filter mode more.

For the price, its a real contender imo. A return policy too if you don’t like it. Worth a look too, fwiw.

I did not really understand what sound you were looking for to select a DAC. Many DACs you tried were of the same design.

when i started out in jan 2020, i wanted to see what streaming was about, get it working, see how good it might sound

my existing references were my analog rig and my cd players, which were/are modwright modded sony es and marantz units with dan’s 5687 tube output stage and 5ar4 tube rectifier (quite high sonic standard, in my view)

like many, i went with the bluesound node first with its nice user interface, but the onboard dac sounded lifeless, so i read and watched yt vids re ’good’ dacs under or around a grand, and made a list of candidates - so this was a semi random walk at that point, surveying the field... chord 2qute, mhdt, ayre codex, pontus, rme adi2, lil schiits and so on -- these pretty much all sounded much better than the node dac... but quite noticeably different from each other, with sonic strengths and weaknesses

going through those, i was well on the horse so to speak, curiosity intensified, so started going to more expensive ones, either well reviewed or discussed, and so up the lines for chord, denafrips, metrum, schiit etc etc to understand the progressions as well as some other ’hot’ dacs (audio mirror, musical paradise....)

by 2022 i had heard some very expensive ones and several purported giant killers (by and large NOT, for those with well assembled, resolving systems) and i was getting a good appreciation of what going to $3-4-5-6 grand units got you sonically, buildwise, feature wise

i learned that in the modern dac world, there are clearly two sonic camps (clean crisp clear vs smooth and sweet ... with some in middle ground), somewhat analogous to the age old prototypical ’solid state vs tube’ sensibilities, but interestingly, each camp could handle imaging, prat, transient resolution and micro detail quite differently (for example an mhdt orchid with a better tube in it was much better than a border patrol at micro detail and transient resolution, even though both are in the ’smooth/sweet’ camp)

by middle of last year, i had settled on my top tier, the weiss, chord stack and msb analog as keepers, and beyond that, i have just continued playing with/trying less costly newcomers that are highly touted (gustard r26, denafrips revisions, musetec, eversolo and so on) as ’high value/giant killer’ units, just to hear for myself how good they are, and how close to my top tier they come

If I may ask, and not that it was necessary nor do I know of your past setups, by chance were any high efficiency 100db horn type speakers with low watt tube amps used around the time you were testing these dacs?

@decooney i did not... long long story with my efforts over the decades trying to find a high efficiency speaker i can truly live with long term ...but despite my efforts, i continue to strike out after so so many at bats... just too much transducer distortion for my ears in some form, in each case

but hope springs eternal, i still keep my pair of wavelength cardinals and a cary 300b sei around, in case lightning strikes!! 😆🤣

@jjss49 Thanks for the clarification. It seems that the Maggies were good for determining differences between the Dacs and also transferable to other speakers.

Yep! I think all the questions show interest and great admiration of someone truly having a passion for self-learning and validation in ones own system(s) versus taking anyone’s word for it. Just gotta love it. If you can do it, it’s the only way to go.

The rest of us tag along trying to leverage this information and experience in different ways to learn vicariously through @jjss49, with great appreciation!

I honestly don’t think speaker choice is the most important thing here although using the very transparent Maggies seems to be a very good choice. In these comparisons the most interesting info to me are the relative differences between the DACs rather than the absolute strengths that may shine in one speaker type or another, and I think that this was born out when @jjss49 intermittently introduced other very different speakers and the relative differences still prevailed and were largely speaker agnostic. This is what makes this thread and feedback so powerful — you can reasonably expect the same relative strengths in your system between DACs regardless of your speakers or even your system. Very valuable stuff indeed!

@jjss49 I had a similar type of question about the testing process used. It's helpful to learn about the additional cone driver speakers referenced.  Thanks for sharing that information. Those are some really nice speakers to test with and compare dacs. 

If I may ask, and not that it was necessary nor do I know of your past setups,  by chance were any high efficiency 100db horn type speakers with low watt tube amps used around the time you were testing these dacs?  If so, what kind of differences did you happen to notice with treble energy, mids, or bass for that matter...

Why do you think Magenpans could provide you with the best judgment about DAC’s compared to comparing them using other speakers?

because when properly set up and properly driven, they are among the most honest, pure, transparent transducers out there, letting you hear quite precisely what is being fed to them with very minimal editorialization, for better or worse

Do you think that your conclusions, made with the Maggies, could apply, ceteris paribus, to very different kinds of speakers?

yes absolutely (once again, with the critical caveat that said speakers are set up to perform properly in room)

over this period, i would on occasion swap the harbeths, spendors and proacs back in, just for fun... doing so didn’t change my takeaways about the dacs i was using... other than preferring a little more treble energy for the harbeths, and touch less for the proacs or spendors

@jjss49 One thing is on my mind. The fact that you did these discriminations using Magnepans.

Why do you think Magenpans could provide you with the best judgment about DAC’s compared to comparing them using other speakers? Do you think that your conclusions, made with the Maggies, could apply, ceteris paribus, to very different kinds of speakers?

Yes, thanks so much.

@soix

well you know me... i knew what i was doing when i chose to post the list, and i don’t mind the consequences 🤣

part of my motivation, frankly, is to establish a thread and a dialogue that puts this forum back into its proper (and positive) comfort zone -- dedicated and interested music lovers and audiophiles sharing experiences and info, without the b-s and negativity

i know my example with dacs here is extreme, but hopefully it helps reset the tone and nature of discourse here, at least on this thread

@jjss49 Well my friend you certainly stepped in it this time!  I’m sure you knew making this post would be a little like having a kid — it never ends.  Thanks again for sharing all this extremely valuable, helpful, and insightful hands-on info, and RIP to your free time.  Heh heh. 

@jjss49 Thanks for your answers! 

Did any of your discoveries about DACs lead to any revelations about other gear? In other words, did the capability of a DAC lead you to hear your other equipment -- e.g. speakers -- do something you had never heard them do before?

I guess this is kind of the old "bottleneck" question, but I'm specifically wondering about that moment where you thought, "Wow! I didn't know my speakers could do that!"

responding to some quickies (i will take the time for more lengthy/thoughtful responses later to address some meatier questions... on mode of listening, best value dacs. how i chose dacs to try etc etc, pls bear with me)

Any comments on the Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter?

no, sorry, i did not try benchmark’s more recent dacs... though well BEFORE the 2020 timeframe i had tried their dac1 -- that was a lean/mean/super clean sounding machine as i vividly recall, consistent with the overall benchmark house sound over the years

Any thoughts on any of the Bricasti DACs?

yes, i hold them in very high regard... built with utmost quality, love and attention by brian zollner and crew, very pure tonally accurate resolving sound that takes no prisoners in treble or bass extension - i loved the m1 mdx i had, but in careful a/b vs my weiss unit i could hear ZERO difference (m1 set on my most preferred ’linear 2’ filter), and given my preference for the weiss on form factor, and features, i let the m1 go

important note here is our friend and esteemed member @tvad is a longtime and multiple bricasti user, he says the m3 is ever so slightly warmer sounding than the m1... i think this this is worth noting - i trust @tvad's ears and sensibilities 100%

Have you totalled up the total money you spent chasing the "perfect" DAC sound; Does your spouse know the figure; and where do you hide the Goose laying the golden eggs to afford this hobby?

haha, well thankfully i have had two lengthy productive careers and money is not an issue (as hifi goes as a hobby, there are indeed much more expensive ones than this), as i have said on prior posts, with my second career developing real estate i acquired property, designed/built my home, and the cost of the home (and the listening room in it) makes money spent on hifi gear insignificant

that said, i regularly check the couple used hifi gear sites, buy units of interest at fair prices, and resell them in time for same, usually at zero or close to zero cost to try... like everything in life money-wise, there are smart and not so smart ways, provided one is willing to expend energy and effort

BTW, was going from 2ch to 4ch with the Weiss DAC501 worthwhile?

for purely sonic reasons, no, imo

BTW, was going from 2ch to 4ch with the Weiss DAC501 worthwhile?

Thank you for taking the time.

Nice, very nice. Lots of time spent. I get why you tried a few from one single company. I always wanted to know if the same companies product were that much better as you went up the line.

I did not really understand what sound you were looking for to select a DAC. Many DACs you tried were of the same design.

My company makes a a 101D Direct Heated Tube R2R (not a chip) design. Very few people have heard a DHT product. We have a separate 25 pound power supply. This is where we feel we are close to vinyl reproduction. That is until you hear our phono stage. Tone arms, cartridges, TT all make nice differences but the phono stage is the real key to overall sound.

Your desire and commitment are surely commendable.

Happy Listening.

Any comments on the Benchmark DAC3 HGC - Digital to Analog Audio Converter?

Link to mfg web site for DAC3

Any thoughts on any of the Bricasti DACs?

A remarkable list, @jjss49, and thanks for your various, thoughtful impressions.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have owned a grand total of two DACs, despite having been 'in the game' for 40 years!

The first was a Denafrips Pontus II, and, interestingly, my current Aqua La Scala, is not on your list. Luckily I have no desire to change.

Can you honestly remember the differences between them ?  And especially if they have multiple filter options?  I recently hauled a Denon SACD player out of storage that hadn’t been played for seven years and was surprised at how much better it sounded than I remembered, once it had warmed up.  Otoh my amplification has changed .  I’m guessing that the rest of your system has not been static during these years

I have heard these and ,not very impressed , imo  roughly $5k in up to truly get

into high quality digital. By far the best which I am still saving for is the

class leading T+A200dac  at $7200 retail is a true bargain , and has HQ player 

built into it with multiple settings if you choose to since this too is built into Roon 

even Innuous now implement this , this dac my myself and  6 others I have spoke with in New England  it meets or beats anything in the $15k and under club it is That good . That my early 🎅 Xmas present 🎁 this year. And whatever  the Mrs won’t approve of - lol.

Wow that is absolutely amazing feat…a tip of the hat for you chasing your passion!  Why do it?  Because you can and are willing👍👍. Thanks for sharing your results and expertise!

Biggest questions:  Have you totalled up the total money you spent chasing the "perfect" DAC sound; Does your spouse know the figure; and where do you hide the Goose laying the golden eggs to afford this hobby?

Inquiring minds are eager to know!

Simply blown away!

This could qualify as an entry in the Guiness book of records.

let me try to cover off some add’l questions posed

“dacs are set up in a/b and even a/b/c configuration, easily switchable to allow comparison when needed”

Can you share more on how your going about that and how you avoid any additional tonal coloration or distortion in the approach?
In my system I can switch between four dacs at a time from a single source with no noticeable affects (once level matched)- just curious about your approach.

i mentioned earlier using multiple parallel streamers jointly controlled by blu os, and later by roon as multiple endpoints, that is the input side to the dacs (cabling was cullen or audioquest coffee)

at the output side, depending on what i am comparing, i would use one of the reference dacs (msb, chord or weiss, each of which can adjust output volume to level match) against subject x... the dacs then output into a preamp or integrated with multiple inputs, controllable by remote -- when comparing fixed output dacs only with varying output levels (i did this earlier on) i used either a van alstine comparator which level matches, or a krell s550i which can set levels by individual input

Curious as to your answer to mahler123 given it is hard on the surface to see how many critical listening hours were given to each with these many DACs going through your system - 2020- 9; 2021 - 19; 2022 -15 ; 2023 -6.

plenty of time to listen... key to understanding the context is two plus years of strict covid lockdown, being newly retired from my real estate endeavors -- simple math -- call it conservatively 6-8 hrs a day x 350 days/year those years... if 2-3 dacs were connected and switch back and forth at will... lots and lots of hours available -- i much rather did this than stare at the tv for cnn/fox and netflix and go brain dead

other point to mention is that pretty much all these dacs were acquired used (even ben z’s mojo mystique he sent me was a customer trade-back), so break in was never an issue

What are your thoughts on the MHDTs you had in your system. I got a Stockholm v.2 about 2 years ago first DAC and really love it.

Could you tell us how the Toucan sounded relative to the Orchid?

mhdt tube buffered dacs are lovely, highly musical, small form factor dacs that allow tube rolling and also easy mods, by such a-gon community members as our own bill dion/grannyring

stock, they have a lush, rich midrange, plump, tuneful bass, with good (not great) treble inner detail -- so sonically very user friendly to traditional analog lovers -- but the magic of these little units is their ability to run better sounding 6dj8 and 6sn7 octal tubes via tube adapters, which makes their sound more extended, airy, transparent and then, with better output caps they gain needed speed and greater transient clarity without having their treble becoming overly forward and etched... among them, i liked the stockholm v2 and orchid best, but in stock form, they all sounded quite similar within a few whiskers

key takeaway for me for these dacs is that the sonic change from tube and capacitor/diode upgrades to any stock mhdt model overwhelms the sonic differences i could hear between different bone stock units (orchid vs stockholm v istanbul for instance)

the toucan is a newer model, using the 6dj8 tube natively... i don’t know exactly what jiun in taipei did here to this newer gen model, the unit has noticeably lower output voltage than its precursors (acrylic faceplate models with 2c51 tube), this one sounds even a touch more laid back, silky and ethereal than the others in stock form with jj tube... but of course, you can throw a dutch bugle boy ecc88 in there and it springs to life, with open airy treble and more snappy transients...but your downstream pre must have enough input sensitivity to run it to get sufficient output

The absolute definition of "Chasing the Dragon".

@jjss49

wow!!!

amazing list! agree with all the comments and do think you can be a resource for many with all your experience.

took a minute to make my list, but it’s a 22 year list......not 4 years. OTOH my turntable//tonearm/cartridge/phono list would be much more crazy.

2001--2006--EMM Labs dac + transport

2007-mid-2015---Playback Designs MPS-5 w/DIY Windows Server ( after 2011)

2015----Lampizator Golden Gate dac + Trinity dac + w/SGM 2015 Server

late--2016----Lampi upgraded to GG 1.5

early 2017---Nagra HD dac (early version), Formula Aqua dac, Nagra HD (next version)

June 2017---MSB Select II dac

2019----Taiko Extreme server

2022 Jan----Wadax Reference dac + Wadax Reference server (only these two remaining).

@jjss49,

You seemed to have opened a can of worms.

There a few posts asking for comparisons, is it possible to make a list?

B

@jjss49 Could you tell us how the Toucan sounded relative to the Orchid?

A few questions -- did you ever listen for enjoyment or were you always in critical listening mode?  To what extent did you optimize the setup of each D/A?  I ask because there are volumes of threads about how critical power cords, digital interconnect, analog interconnects and vibration controls are for each component.  If you did try to experiment with any of these variable for each D/A, then it goes back to my first question.  To rephrase, was changing all this equipment so frequently enjoyable?

Hi jjss49

What are your thoughts on the MHDTs you had in your system.  I got a Stockholm v.2 about 2 years ago first DAC and really love it.  my system is tube amp'd

@jjss49 I appreciate the help you have given to me when I have asked you on DM, and I do recall you have said on past postings that you have tried some 30-40 Dacs over time, but still to see them listed like this is bewildering. I recall those times when we were all so fearful and locked in our homes not going out at all just being couch potatoes for months on end. Congrats on what you did in that time, making some great hifi lemonade out of the bushels of lemons that were sent to all of us in that period of time!  I am envious of the enjoyment and knowledge you gained in experiencing these.

I am astounded ...

😊

Your expertise will be useful for people who will have hard choices ...

Myself i listen my Hidizs 200 bucks dac... I cannot fault it anyway... It is basic ... I throw off my very good French NOS dac tda 1543 , because i needed a more clean source...If i borrow your comparison the Hidizs is more denafrips and the French dac more metrum... But i borrowed your terms here i never listened to them... 😉

I will not say more about dac...

With more money i will buy the Dr. Choueri BAACH dac... a completely different kind of dac...

😁

Did you have something close to a control reference system you used to evaluate most of these or did you change speakers and amps too in parallel at times?

Have you had a standard streamer to test them with or have your tried a bunch of those also?

i will chip away at the questions my list has engendered

yes most of the time it was solid state amplification into magnepans (1.7i and 3.7i)

in the earlier period 2020/ early 21 was big harbeths or spendors with solid state (hegel, pass, musical fidelity)

i was never a computer streamer, so when i launched into this, i started with a bank of 3 bluesound node 2i’s (multiple can be sync’d through the app), then went to node 3 usb x3, then in 2021, i caved to roon, and subsequently migrated to a bank of ifi zenstreams (with lps), and then also to paralleled sets of sonore optical rendus with ether regens for lan cleansing when feeding unitized streamer/dacs

i tried other streamers against the zenstreams and o-rendu’s intermittently (lumin, auralic, innuos, pro-ject, volumio and so on)

Why do you try so many DAC’s from the same company? E.g. there are many MHDT, Schiit, Metrum, Denafrips DACs there -- why? Do they really vary so much?

when i heard a nice sounding one, i was curious to see how that company handled their model progression... i.e., when you spent more what did you get sonically? ...i was determined to hear this for myself (my overall guiding analogy is as with analog gear, you are really hearing the cartridge/arm/table mostly... so understanding performance gained up a maker’s model progression is key to finding the sweet spots in the curve ... dynavector karat to 20x2 to xx2 to tkr, and so on)

as you would imagine dave, what you get as you move up the line is different with different companies - with denafrips you get progressively more treble detail and ’openness’, with metrum you get more silky smoothness and richness, as two examples

mhdt is the exception, those dacs are not in a vertically stacked food chain, they simply use different r2r dac chips from back in the day, so my curiosity was to hear an orchid running a philips tdai1541 vs a stockholm using a burr brown pcm61k, with all else in the dac design being held constant

I can't imagine your list of cables  They probably make more differences than the dacs.

@jjss49  - 

"almost all dacs below have been owned, and spent extensive time (at least 2-3 months) in my system"

@mahler123 

"How many hours do you actually listen to each DAC, with that kind of turnover?"

Curious as to your answer to mahler123 given it is hard on the surface to see how many critical listening hours were  given to each with these many DACs going through your system - 2020- 9; 2021 - 19; 2022 -15 ; 2023 -6. 

That's impressive!  What's the best bang for the buck IYHO?

@ossicle2brain  Your friend is right. 🤙

Is this proof that all DACs sound the same inadequate way and in the fruitless pursuit of one that sounds as good as vinyl people will go to ridiculous lengths and still never equal vinyl?

Asking for a friend. 😊

@jjss49 

Great list! Legit proof (needed by some out there) that all dacs are not created equal. I’m interested in knowing more about your comment above-

“dacs are set up in a/b and even a/b/c configuration, easily switchable to allow comparison when needed”

Can you share more on how your going about that and how you avoid any additional tonal coloration or distortion in the approach?
In my system I can switch between four dacs at a time from a single source with no noticeable affects (once level matched)- just curious about your approach.

@jjss49 

Thanks for the list. The questions are piling up. But here's a couple easy ones:

Q. Why do you try so many DAC's from the same company? E.g. there are many MHDT, Schiit, Metrum, Denafrips DACs there -- why? Do they really vary so much?

Oh - and no Mojo or Holo Audio DAC?