Many thanks for such a useful post and thread. Could you please comment on the Schiit DACs, the various Yggrasils compared to the Gungnir multi bit? How did they fare against your favorite DACs? I have an opportunity to get a Yggrasil Less is More.
dacs that I have had in my system - a listing
i comment quite a bit on threads about digital/analog converters, as i have tried many since the covid period in early 2020, when i recommitted to my hifi and getting streaming and a truly modern digital front end implemented in my main home system
i have had questions on what dacs i have actually tried -- so last week when i was sleepless on a long transcontinental flight home from a holiday, i made a listing, which i post below
almost all dacs below have been owned, and spent extensive time (at least 2-3 months) in my system, obviously there have been changes in my system over this time, and not all dacs were owned at the same time
i post this here so others can refer to this here - i looked, but i could not find a way to post this on my 'system' page
the asterisk-ed entries are still in hand, currently:
2020
topping d90 mqa
ayre codex
mhdt stockholm
mhdt orchid
mhdt istanbul
denafrips pontus original
musical paradise mpd1
ps audio d link iii modded cullen
bs node 2i
2021
denafrips ares 2
denafrips pontus 2
denafrips terminator
auris d1d vu
audio mirror tubador 3 se
van alstine fet topp*
van alstine fet hybrid
rme adi 2 (akm)
schiit modius
schiit gumby
schiit yggy*
sonnet morpheus
border patrol se i
metrum jade
metrum octave
metrum hex
metrum adagio
musical fidelity trivista 21 (modded)*
weiss 501* (now 4ch)
2022
chord 2qute
chord qutest
chord m scaler* hugo tt2*
mhdt orchid modded*
audio note kits dac4 pro
msb analog w powerbase*
denafrips venus 2*
denafrips pontus 12
audio gd master 7
musetec 005
bs node n130
bricasti m1se mdx
doge 7
hegel h90 190 390 590* (internal)
2023
gustard r26*
eversolo dmp a6 master*
mhdt toucan
orchard pecan pi*
cambridge audio cxn2 modwright modded tubed*
Lots of DACs! My journey is not so comprehensive, but I have also ended up in the Chord (DAVE) plus M Scaler camp. With the recent addition of a Sean Jacobs DC4/ARC6 external LPS the DAVE is both detailed and lush. My DACs Schitt Modi Schitt Modi 2 OPPO Sonica OPPO Sonica with Modwright Truth tube mod (*) Bryston BDA-3 CHORD Qutest CHORD DAVE DAVE plus M Scaler (*) DAVE/M Scaler plus Sean Jacobs DC4/ARC6 LPS (*) (*) I list the OPPO Sonic Modwright mod and DAVE/M Scaler/external LPS additions as separate DACS because each of these additions elevated the base DAC performance significantly Though a while ago, I recall being gobsmacked at how the Modwright mod completely changed the OPPO Sonica’s character. In fact, that was one of the audio experiences that convinced me of the importance of electronics in a system. More recently, adding Sean Jacob’s external LPS to DAVE/M Scaler improved my system exponentially. 10/10 It was immediate and not subtle. Of course, adding a $10K external LPS to a $15K DAC+$5K upscaler better do just that. Foolish gamble? Perhaps. No argument that going straight to a $25K-$30K DAC would seem to make more sense (OTOH, many of these are two boxes with an external LPS). But a large high-end one-time DAC purchase like Lampi, et al doesn’t in work in my cash flow. Also, I was pleased enough with the DAVE that I didn’t want to take a 50%-60% hit selling it to start over again. And since I had a good experience with modding my OPPO (and my very old Haflers modded by Musical Concepts - but that’s a different story), I thought “modding by accretion” was a reasonable approach. Happy listening, all
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Toucan is very nice. Definitely a similar family sound as the Orchid and Stockholm with the benefit of a better case and of course, native 6dj8 tube buffering. The analog output voltage is a touch lower than the other units using the 5670/2c51 mini tube though, so make sure your downstream gear has enough gain or a good buffer stage. The sound is what you would expect from Juin’s better DACs and can be further improved through output caps upgrade for extension at the extremes and a touch more drive.
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I see that you have had the MHDT Toucan. What was your opinion of it compared to the other MHDT dacs you have owned. I have owned the pagoda in the past and switched to the YGGY Less is More Dac which I love, but lately I have been thinking about picking up one of the new mhdt dac again. I have been thinking about the Toucan and the new Oolong which is similar to the pagoda which uses the upgraded PCM 1704 k graded chip and takes AES input. Your thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks. |
it depends, in my view yes it is clean sounding, yes it is german made, but whether it totally ’gets out of the way’ is a rather subjective thing... for a very good system set up that capably extracts and renders spatial info from recordings, the rme in my experience is lacking... its soundstage is foreshortened and narrowed... one quick a/b versus say, a chord qutest, exposes this notable weakness of the rme this is why i feel the rme is ideal for headphone listeners, much more than those with good in-room setups that seek to recreate realistic imaging, layering and decay of notes
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on sonic performance alone i think the venus is superior overall to both the pontus and ank 4.1, by a slim margin the pontus comparatively has greater midband warmth but this to my ear comes from a slightly recessed and smeared treble and a greater sense of fine grain in the mids you get with the pontus... you don’t hear this delta till you compare the two side by side vs the ank the solid state output stages of the denafrips defines bass better, more solid, less overhang while the sense of imaging is equal (a real coup for the dena models, imo) as well providing a lower noise floor, and thus microdetail is a touch better - one can argue the ank gives more ’air’ around the bass notes (think audio research tube amp bass versus hegel solid state bass) but i prefer a more tight deep neutral bass presentation once again the key caveat here is i did not get into rolling tubes in the ank, and with effort here, there may be more sonic upside to the ank unit than how i heard it |
@jjss49 thanks again for answering all my questions. It’s rare that someone has compared these DACs directly. Did you feel one outperformed the other sonically? Were there any areas where the ANK exceeded the performance of the Pontus/Venus? If you were to recommend one on its sonic performance alone, which would it be? |
haven’t tried a current benchmark dac since this wave of dac trials starting 2020... last was a model 1 many years back... definitely a clear clean lean sonic character iirc eversolo master is a very nice high value piece, dac section to my ear is classic ess sabre sound, forward (but quite clean) treble, clean/clear midrange, slightly dry bass but excellent transient resolution overall, somewhat narrowed and foreshortened soundstage compared to higher level units -- that said, for the price it may be all that many would need in good, mid level audiophile systems
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This is a great thread and good recommendations included, thank you @jjss49 - you have a great system and so much experience. I like the high ranking for the Qutest and R26. How did you like the Eversolo master edition? Have you ever tried a Benchmark 3? |
r26 is excellent, a top candidate in its price range, especially in light of its all-in-one feature set ... streamer (i use roon) is excellent though i felt using it as a preamp with its internally adjustable volume slightly diminished the quality of the sound - definitely a top choice for excellent all around sound with a clear open top end without bringing the treble too prominently forward a softer sweeter rounder sound would be gotten from a modded mhdt tube buffered dac, and an even more incisive, more holographic sound can be had with a chord qutest, although that also brings a slightly leaner midband - all this depends on system synergy for what would be ’best’ for an particular user
i used the ank 4.1 le with stock tube set, i was surprised by its quite energetic presentation, with an open somewhat forward treble... resolution was very good, on par with a denafrips pontus but not quite as a clean as a venus 2, to my ear, and the ank had a bit higher noise floor (rca outs vs xlr from denafrips) .. mids and midbass on all were magical though deep bass tunefulness is superior on the denafrips my issues with the ank was (mainly) its huge form factor (it is a really big box, i just did not want that long term) and the fact that its input card is limited and cannot handle higher res content (it sounded very nice on all music it played, this was a futureproofing thing for me, as i thought about it at the time) if one commits to this unit, i suspect one can roll tubes to further improve its sound signature, if not its slightly higher noise floor, but i never got that far, as much as i thoroughly enjoyed how it presented the music |
@jjss49 thank you so much for this extensive comparison! I am seriously considering building an ANK DAC 4.1 to go with my all ANK system. I know their house sound well, but am wondering if I would be missing out on a more modern DAC. I would love your comparison between it and the better Denafrips units you’ve tried. How does the resolution, micro-detail, and bass compare? Do you feel like there is anything that your other favorite DACs did better that this fell short on? |
After extensive and exhaustive auditioning of multiple DACs over the years, I ultimately selected the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty Streaming DAC. The QX-5 Twenty DAC is an absolutely phenomenal DAC, and an excellent streamer, has become my end-game DAC. There's a sea of great DACs out there on the market these days. |
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Thank you jjss49 for such an informative post. Im way out of your league in DACs, but happy you use Magi 1.7i s as I do. You mentioned direct connect to amp if gain control exists. Does anyone know if it is safe to connect my Geshelli J2 DAC with 3 position gain directly to my Odyssey Kismet amp? Ive always used preamp in between. Streamer is BS Node 2i which also has some gain control via it's BluOS app from ipad. My full rig is in storage, but if I could just use Node, dac, amp, speakers that would help my audio withdrawl.
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I did add the Amperex as Dan suggested. I love them compared to the Electro Harmonix. It’s a good unit for sure. I’m new to this world of tubes. I had the same ss system for 25 years. I now have a tube dac, preamp and amp. Perhaps my nativety, I think there’s more out there. The Audio Note dac showed me a different presentation and I might equate that to better or that I’m missing something in the CXN or Topping. I hope the Rockna is the last dac I ever have to buy. And btw, the Cambridge is sticking around. It’s worth hanging on to as a nice change of sound. Thanks again for all your imput. Earthbound |
i love my modwrighted cxn v2 for its ability to tube roll and thusly materially shape its sonic attributes, as dan uses the 6dj8 pair directly in its analog output gain stage (not just as a buffer) -- i found no lack to detail, even if the tubed nature of the sound steps back the low mid and treble a touch compared to classic solid state output dacs -- to my ears, this unit loves old stock dutch amperexes, hungarian tungsrams and german siemens tubes -- wonderful sheen and great air and openness to the sound that reminds us of what tube magic is all about
i have not tried a rockna, though by reputation i know they are excellent, very ’analog’ sounding dacs -- i would just remind folks of the two schools of dac sound, and the chord qutest is a prime, excellent example of the clear and crisp school -- vast imaging and precise, wonderful delineation of elements in the image... also i find the qutest especially benefits from a linear power supply (in spite of rob watts’ insistence that it doesn’t/won’t) |
@earthbound Picked up a Rockna Wavelight back in March and am very happy with it. Replaced a Chord Qutest in my main rig. Nothing wrong with the Qutest, but the Wavelight is just in another league, which given the price differential it should be. Very natural and warm presentation. Soundstage is both wide and deep. Highly resolving. Lots of inner detail, but not in your face. I expect it to be in my main rig for a long time to come.
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Thanks for sharing your dac experiences. What a journey! I’m just ordered another dac, which will be my fourth in the last year. The Cambridge cxn v2 modded by ModWright is so easy to listen to but I feel it lacks some detail. Topping d90 has wonderful detail but can get piercing high up(could be my sensitive ears). I just demoed the Audio Note 1.1. Was very interesting. Better clarity or detail and better dynamics. Hard to pinpoint its sound. Seemed to change from song to song based on the recording I guess. That was a cool surprise. The 2.1 is a future consideration. I just ordered the Rock a Wavedream Edition. Might be awhile before it arrives. Not sure if there’s anyone who can share their experiences with Rockna but would love to hear if there is. |
glad you are enjoying the gustard 👍... simply an incredible value and wonderful performance in any absolute sense
maybe sometime this winter when weather outside is poor and i get really bored 😁... thankfully i have been a reasonably organized note taker over this journey, so it will not be too difficult to remind myself the sonic experiences -- what i have tried to do so far here in this thread is answer specific queries as they arise... that seems to be working okay thus far |
@jjss49 thanks for all your DAC expertise and advice. Because of your analysis I picked up a Gustard r26 with an Audio Magic M-1 fuse. Wow this Dac blew me away. I am hearing things I have never heard before in a very nice black background. Very pleased with my purchase and the price is crazy for this performance. Many thanks! |
@yyzsantabarbara I agree with creativepart and oddiofyl, that would be really unwise of you if you were to take out a 401k loan ;) |
@yyzsantabarbara - I’m retired. I would strongly suggest not touching a 401K for the purchase of any goods or services. Especially, audio gear that changes and improves all the time. Sure you read about this cool new thing or that other thing, but really using 401K money is super short sighted and later when you are retired you will understand how important every thousand dollars in you account is over time.. Exercise some restrain - find stuff around you home to sell to raise funds but leave the 401K alone until retirement. |
@jjss49 Appreciate the post and replies!
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@toro3 I took a flyer on it based on this review. Schitt is also very close to my home so I could easily return it. https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/audio-shows/schiit-texas-audio-roundup-writeup-r1125/ Since I liked the Yggi+ so much I ordered the Aegir 20 watt ’Class A’ amp yesterday for my headphones. That cost $800 and I am going to compare that with a $7K dedicated headphone amp. It will not be better (the use of an adapter makes this impossible) however, if the Aegir gets me to 90% of the $7K (amp was sold) I will be amazed. My great CODA #16 amp gets me to 90% of the top amp. The reason I liked the Yggi+ more than the X1 was that I felt the top end the Yggi+ was super clean and realistic. The X1 in comparison sounded a bit darker on top. This issue was rather easy to notice on the uber revealing RAAL SR1a earphones.
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Wow, this has been an incredibly informative thread.
@yyzsantabarbara the opticalRendu and the Yggi+LIM combo being compared to the X1 got my attention - that’s really saying something from what I gather. There was another poster on a different thread that had made the move to the ultraRendu and the Gustard R26 with great results, but he was coming for an all-in-one NAD C658 (which I’m currently using) not an X1. Regardless, appreciate you and the OP sharing this experience. Definitely helps people navigate the wide variety of streamers, DACs, and flavors in the market. Beyond the tax implications from a 401K loan, in addition to extending my time horizon, I’d definitely love to try an MHDT Orchid, Lab12 DAC1 Reference, Audio Mirror Tubadour (IV SE), Black Ice Audio Glass FX Tube DAC, Denafrips Pontus or Venus, and ultimately a T+A DAC 200. If I follow through with this probably-good decision, I’ll make sure to share my findings/experiences :) |
let me come back and tackle some important queries posed...
for fixed output dacs, i would put a few i have had in the same sonic league (or very close) as my favorite three already covered, i could easily live with any of these sonically - i will make a few comments on the sonics of each -- audio note kits dac 4.1 -- for a tube dac, very saturated and surprisingly spotlit sound, rather forward treble and excellent drive, to go along with terrific imaging... did note just a touch of sibilance and splashiness, but this likely cured with carefully tube rolling -- mojo mystique v3 -- very sweet, delicate, analog sounding unit, maybe a touch lacking in drive and the last degree of inner detail -- i feel my msb analog dac has a very similar highly musical presentation but with somewhat superior imaging and drive -- metrum pavane/adagio -- in my view, still cees ruitjenberg’s best efforts (including his later sonnet morpheus, which i did not like) -- utterly smooth rich yet detailed incisive sound, saturated and tonally accurate but plenty of drive when called for -- bricasti m1 mdx as mentioned earlier (sonically a weiss clone to my ears)
in their respective price ranges, i would nominate the following -- denafrips pontus/venus -- rich midband and midbass, coupled with a vast layered soundstage... very hard to beat in the $1500-low 2’s (be sure to listen in oversampling mode) -- pontus has just a fine grain thru with the upper mids/lower treble that the venus smooths out -- mhdt tube buffered dacs (ideally with upgraded tube and output caps) -- sweet rich yet sufficiently insightful sound, very analog tonality but with pretty good drive -- hard to beat in the $1000-1500 range -- definitely in the sweeter smoother school and great for systems with klipsches tektons focals b&w’s i think -- walks you back from the bleeding raspy edge -- chord qutest -- yang to the mhdt’s yin under $1500-- open detailed fast simply holographic, maybe a touch lean but will breathe life and insight into many systems (harbeths, vandys and so on) -- gustard r26 -- so impressed with this $1500 streamer/r2r dac -- sounds like a good schiit yggy (lively detailed top, but sweet warm mids, great tone) with a roon ready streamer to boot (wow!) -- since i started this quest i considered gustard/matrix/smsl as lowest common denominator guangdong swill, but this one really surprised me with its really excellent sound and full feature set -- the cambridge cxn v2 with modwright tube output mods -- $2000-2500 unit with full streamer preamp and oversampling dac using real deal modwright 6dj8 tube output stage (not just a tube buffer) -- tremendous sound (think of it as an audio note 4.1 lite) and full feature set -- dan wright’s tube designs have always sounded so right to me (awful pun, i know 😂) -- finally, for an older/used dac, i would heartily recommend the musical fidelity trivista 21 -- wonderful sound, tube goodness with sweetness with insightfulness up top and excellent drive and bass foundation -- these are seen used not much over a grand, they are excellent sounding |
just quick comment on the above statement, which i had missed earlier the weiss units are not r2r topology - they are based on the ess sabre delta-sigma dac chips |
this is a fair question, which deserves a thoughtful answer... this and the earlier question about ’best bang for buck’ dacs... i am in a busy stretch with summer family/visitors events next several days, i will try to provide proper replies sometime next week
if you really mean what you wrote here the hugo tt2 will certainly meet your criteria -- but i sense you want to travel a little farther afield from chord, which is fine, all part of the experience/journey -- i would only say that once you get used to what the qutest/tt2 brings sonically, many (if not a majority of) other dacs may sound a little slow, a bit closed in, a little muddled and slurred -- in some cases cabling or cleaning up the front end feed may 'close that gap' |
@jjss49 I wonder if your final 3 would have changed if did not have a preference for a volume control? As many have said this report its a valuable contribution to the overall community.
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Only had a few dacs. Presently running a vintage Audio By Van Alstine Insight Multibit dac from 2008, A Schiit Modius AKM4493, Schiit Modi 2 Uber, and an original ifi Zen Dac Signature. IME all are very good dacs for the money. One of the best sounding dacs I have heard was an Anodyne Adapt hybrid from the early 1990’s using Burr Brown chips. Not inexpensive at the time (about $2500 - nearly $6000 US in the present day), but very impressive. Sorry I ever sold it.
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@jjss49 Thank you. |
My digital system is a Jay's Audio CDT2 MK3 Transport, a SoTM SMS200 Ultra network streamer with SMP500 power supply, The Chord Qutest with Sbooster power supply, a Naim Supernait 3 integrated and Harbeth P3ESR speakers. I really like the sound stage depth and the separation between instruments the Qutest provides. As for what I want to get from something else is really more of the same with a sense of ease and realism. I stick with gear i like a long time. Every few years I like to try something new, something different to see if "better" is out there. On my list of possible replacements for the Qutest is Holo Audio Spring3 KTE, the Weiss DAC 204, Denefrips Pontus II, and maybe Gustard R26. I'm interested in R2R because I've not heard one, The Spring and the Weiss are at the top of my list. For a long time I was only looking for a used Hugo TT2 - but I kind of feel like I've been there and done that. So, I'm looking at something different than the Qutest. |
tonally, the scaler/hugo tt2 sounds very very similar to the weiss, they both have extended airy detailed treble, a nicely saturated, well textured midrange, true tone/timbre, and powerful quick deep tuneful bass in terms of imaging, the scaler/tt2 has similar image density and width but slightly greater depth (in terms of depth of stage think of the weiss as an ’8’ and the chord stack as a ’9/10’ -- both delineate instruments quite precisely -- on excellent recordings, one can hear the treble of the chord stack has a touch more sheen, silkiness, more ambiance decay, whereas the weiss is a little more matter-of-fact the sonic differences are quite slight between the two... i would think most would judge them as pretty much identical this said, each has certain tricks up their respective sleeves... weiss has numerous useful eq and importantly, a brilliantly easy to use room bass mode adjustment (quite transformative of sound in some situations) and the tt2 has 4 filter settings to dial down the treble if one desires, and of course, the scaler can be used separately to upsample into other dacs too if ever desired sidebar: i have come to firmly believe that upsampling really helps dacs do good filtering and analog signal reconstruction, and this helps dacs sound more natural and manage sibilance
if you have been a very happy qutest user, i would heartily suggest moving up to a hugo tt2 -- they are in the $3500 used range now...tt2 preserves all the strengths of the qutest but adds even greater subtlety and saturation to the sonic palette -- otherwise, you can write more about your system, what sonic presentation and features you prefer and i can share additional thoughts
haha, not really interested, i am somewhat camera shy 😂🤣 , not to mention i am rather turned off by the yt click-bait game -- what i am is a loyal, longtime a-gon member, been here from the start, learned so much here over the years from other dedicated audiophiles who generously shared their experiences and learnings (especially re analog), so at this point, i am happy to pay it back now to others, feel zero need to monetize my opinions/experience |
In the past 3 years I also did a mini-me version of @jjss49 DAC testing (at home for long period) with the following DACs:
I also used a Sonore OpticalRendu for streaming to USB via fibre. The only DACs I have left are the Yggi+, modded Peachtree GAN1, and the Benchmark DAC3B. I plan on ’upgrading’ the DAC3B with a PlayBack Designs Dream DAC relatively soon. The 2 best DACs I have had are the Yggi+ Less is More and the modded GAN1. The Lumin X1 is also up there but I liked the Yggi+ better and it cost a ton less. The GAN1 is not really a DAC but the end result is pretty amazing, The stock version is not comparable to the modded one I have.
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@jjss49 Would you mind commenting on the differences between two units still in your possession, the Weiss DAC501-4ch and the Chord Electronics Hugo TT2 / M Scaler combo that are in the same price range? |
@designsfx , A lotta dudes legit shouldn’t/can’t hear a flippin difference in dacs because of deficiencies in designs/setups in spite of the "high end" they apparently bought (your comment appeared to indicate otherwise). |