Critical listening and altered states

What dabel imagined 
https://youtu.be/eNp6u8WvViM?t=2

What actually happened   
https://youtu.be/JeILXsgaUCw?t=173

Real classy.....

90 minutes before she made it home.  
https://youtu.be/7ArK_KYDeSo?t=4

If you do, you're going to want to link your fist to his nose....

I stopped reading a few pages in, so forgive me if I repeat something someone else said. Chances are you've listened to your system in an unaltered state often enough. Furthermore, I'm almost sure most of us bought it that way. If it sounds extra groovy while you're buzzed, that's a wonderful bonus. The very reason you altered your state. The system didn't change, the music pleases you and you're happy, what's to wonder about?

I've always enjoyed music with good cannabis - used to do psychedelics and 'E' too a few decades ago. Now I hardly even drink anymore, but I always enjoy cannabis! Goes great with music, movies, telly, sports, etc etc. 

I recently bought a Raven Blackhawk. Some have complained about a transformer buzz. My goal tonight is to match that buzz.

Ultrasonic harmonics and a Schumann Resonator can be beneficial.

There is a special place for any music that can give me an adrenaline rush; but, there is a cherished (perhaps even sacred) place for any music that can give me goose bumps, regardless of whatever equipment that I was listening to at the time. However, I tend to be more impressed when those things occur during sober listening, because I don't have to question or debate what caused that response.

If you remember* being at Woodstock, you weren’t really there. So the saying goes.

Similarly, altered states are good for experiential activity, not for evaluative activity.

* I remember trying to get there with friends, then the VW van broke down some 15 miles away. We repaired the van and turned around.

@unreceivedogma 

Similarly, altered states are good for experiential activity, not for evaluative activity.

If you look back at my posts in this thread, you'll see that I'm not proposing altered states as the default for evaluative activity. They're proposed as being *among* the ways one might expand what is noticed in observation or as a prompt to new connections.

Unless you're saying that the are never helpful for evaluative activity. If that's what you mean, why do you think that?

@ hilde45

Speaking for myself, I would never use any altered state that compromises my analytical faculties for evaluative purposes.

For enjoyment? Of course, absolutely.

Others on this thread have already covered the why quite well. The only thing that I might add is that no two altered states - in my experience - are the same, or rather, I cannot recall them as such. 

I had quite a few experiences of listening to music while in altered states of mind during my mis-spent youth.  While I should have been in College, underground dance music and raves became my priority.

I was a beginner audiophile at age 12, had my life changed by music (and God at the same time) at age 18, and around age 30 started learning about high end audio. 
With all that said, becoming a critical listener is number 1.  Closing your eyes, clearing your mind of everything and just listening is how you will really enjoy this hobby.  
About 2 weeks ago I had a 5 hour listening session with a neighbor.  Both her and her husband could hear how amazing my stereo sounds in the first 30 seconds of listening.  She was hooked and we listened for 5 hours.  It was so cool to see her mind just being blown.  There were even a few songs that she swore were remixes because she was hearing so much more musical information. By the end of our time spent listening, she understood noise floor, attack, decay, dynamic swings, imaging and soundstage and was a pro at picking up micro details.
Anyways, my point is, you can get huge amounts of enjoyment out of these high end systems if you just listen.  Clear your mind of all thoughts, and concentrate on what you are hearing.  Try listening to each individual instrument and then all of them together.  Also, in a way, it’s helpful not to get overly critical of what you are hearing.  Much of what we listen to is recorded or mastered poorly or even just mastered or mixed in a way that is not or preference.  
Last thing to think about is the emotional connection.  If your system draws you in and grabs ahold of your emotions your on the right track.  Theres a few songs that I can play that will bring tears to my eyes no matter what mood Im in. When music, and vocals in particular, can at times become spooky or haunting then your on the right track.  
Last last thing… I don’t think that Alcohol makes you a better listener.  I think it dulls the senses. You’ll listen much louder.  You’ll think you are hearing more but your not.  Herb may change the way you perceive sounds but I find that I’ll become disinterested in listening.  Coffee is good at times. I don’t want to discuss others because I don’t want to promote drug use..

I was pleased to find this old thread because it concerns a topic that I’ve been thinking about recently. I started researching and writing about this as part of a proposed response to the Analog thread entitled The Sacred Ritual of Vinyl: A Return to Mindful Listening started by @unreceivedogma. However, it seems to fit better here and I’ll leave the connection to vinyl for another time.

There seems to be a general presumption here that altered states of consciousness (ASC) are all about drugs and being wasted. This is not necessarily so. They can also occur spontaneously or for a variety of other reasons and are particularly associated with music. Palhares et al wrote the following in a 2024 paper:

“Listening to and performing music is frequently associated with significant transformations in the quality and intensity of subjective experience, configuring, in many cases, altered states of consciousness (i.e. notable deviations from ordinary mental functioning). Such states may include absorption (Høffding, 2018; Vroegh, 2019), trance (Herbert, 2011), or flow (Tan and Sin, 2021).”

I have experienced spontaneous ASC throughout my life in different situations. Sometimes these happen when listening to live music or playing guitar. The deepest involve a feeling of being almost outside time, the body and space. I hope this doesn’t come across as fanciful because I am far from being a mystical person. ASC are real phenomena that are due to chemical processes in the brain. 

I am not a psychologist so my understanding of the academic literature on ASC may be somewhat naive. Nonetheless, a recent paper maintains that it is not that consciousness is altered per se, but rather that the world including the body is misrepresented to that consciousness. Therefore, all sorts of weird stuff like supposed alien abduction, out of body experiences and near-death experiences are also classified as ASC. To avoid confusion with pathologically induced ASC, one author suggests the use of the alterative designation Non-Ordinary Mental Expressions (NOME).

For an overview of the research literature on ASC and music, see Time Is the Key: Music and Altered States of Consciousness, January 2011, Jörg Fachner in the book Altering Consciousness: A Multidisciplinary Perspective. 

As far as I can remember, my first experience of ASC occurred on a summer evening when I was a young child. I was standing at the centre of a big lawned area bordered by a high stone wall. Other children around me were playing hide and seek. I felt like I was observing the scene from slightly above and was detached from it. At the time, I wouldn’t have been able to articulate what I had experienced. Later, I probably would have dismissed it as an unreliable childhood memory, except it has happened again since. On various occasions throughout my life, I’ve had experiences that I recognise as being similar. There is no mistaking the feeling. These ASC usually involve a sensation of being outside time, disconnected from my body and space. Yet at the same time, I can be highly focussed on what I can see, hear, and feel.

The first time I recall having an ASC-like connection to music was when I heard my teenage friend’s older sisters’ Bob Dylan records on a little Dansette type record player. With these songs, it wasn’t just the music itself that took me to a different place – it was also the imagery of the words. A door had opened up for me. As I got into my teens, psychedelic sounds appeared almost without warning. One day at a seaside fair ground, I heard Sgt. Pepper in its entirety for the first time over the Tannoy. The sound quality must have been awful, but the music was mesmerising. On another occasion when walking in Valkenberg, hearing Baby You’re a Rich Man had a similar effect. 

As I got older, ASC were often associated with my early sexual experiences and listening to music after sharing a joint with friends at university – sex & drugs & rock & roll! Although I was never more than an occasional marijuana user, it showed me a deeper way into musical absorption. After university, I found that a good sounding hi-fi system was an excellent substitute for being stoned while listening to music. Along the way, playing the guitar led me to the wonderful sounds of the pre-war country blues artists. I was drawn into the surreal mythical Invisible Republic that Greil Marcus has since written about and was so influential on Bob Dylan, among others. This felt like a real place to me.

ASC can also occur when falling in love. In my mid-thirties, I unexpectedly had a mutually shared ASC experience when a female colleague slipping into a trance triggered me to follow her down into the same state. That was a powerful thing and over thirty years later I still think about it. It proved to be a turning point that heralded profound changes in my life, both positive and negative. I can appreciate why some people might consider ASC to be of spiritual significance. Although, being more of a scientific disposition, that is not how I regard them. They have great therapeutic potential for healing.

When playing guitar, I sometimes experience ASC. I learned from a professional guitar player that this is not unusual for musicians. He said that he himself always experiences them within five minutes of starting a concert performance. Apparently, sports people also use ASC to enhance performance and call it the flow. For me, a quest for a better acoustic guitar tone had parallels with my attempts to upgrade the sound quality of my hi-fi system. As I endeavoured to be a better listener and player, these two activities reinforced each other. They involved similar sensations and states of mind. I tend to go through alternate phases of throwing myself into one or the other of them.

I feel that when a listening session gets to be particularly pleasurable and the music comes alive, I have feelings not unlike the ASC that I outlined above. It takes me three or more albums to reach the right mental state for maximum enjoyment of the music. That’s surely longer than the system would take to warm up. It takes me a similar length of time to get fully into my guitar playing.

I don’t want to give the impression that every time I play or listen to music I go into a deep ASC. That appears to be in the main reserved for rare special occasions when I am particularly chilled out on beautiful summer evenings. It’s more that I enjoy the feeling that I am heading in that direction even if I don’t often reach this destination. Maybe, there are different depths of ASC that can be experienced - I am not knowledgeable enough to say for sure. I need to delve more into the relevant academic literature. I presume the shallower ASC are the absorption that is mentioned therein. There is some suggestion in this literature that those who have experienced drug induced ASC, may be able to repeat them later without the use of drugs. Perhaps, I am still reliving the stoned listening of my college years.

The literature also suggests that individuals who are most susceptible to being hypnotised are more likely to have ASC experiences. That may explain why not everyone experiences ASC quite so readily as me. For example, my wife is very much rooted in the here and now. She  rarely experiences anything like this and can’t bear sitting down to exclusively listen to recorded music. It is a shame we can’t share that. For her, music is only for live concerts or background listening while she’s doing other things like driving or exercising. 

Moreover, research has shown that judgers like her need higher dosages to achieve drug induced ASC than perceivers such as me. Judgers prefer structure, organization, and closure in their lives, often making plans and sticking to them. In contrast, perceivers are more spontaneous and flexible, preferring to keep their options open and adapt as situations arise. From a Jungian perspective, the great advantage of having lived our lives is that we can understand ourselves. I suspect these traits have a bearing on how we relate to music. That might be either on an intellectual or a visceral level.

In summary, my own subjective experience and the relevant academic literature suggest that ASC such as absorption, trance and flow are of great significance in listening to music as well as performing it, even without a little help from our friends. I am going to have to give further thought on how this relates to a preference for vinyl  records over digital sources.

Finally, I’ve just ordered a Blu-Ray of Ken Russell’s typically over the top “Altered States” movie mentioned in previous posts. I did enjoy back it in the eighties so look forward to watching it again with my wife. Goodness knows what she’ll make of it.

@newton_john Very interesting set of reflections about ASC. Thanks!

Whatever others said, my OP was not about being wasted, per se. I am not interested in what state people are in to enjoy music. My post was about the intentional inducement of ASC to help broaden and diversify the kind of data we use to make analytical judgments about audio sound.

A crude analogy would be someone who is used to a certain meal that they eat every day. If that person tries adding a little salt, they alter their perception of what they’re eating and perhaps understand it in a new way. That can open the door to new interpretations or give clues about where changes might be beneficial.

Good points! Since I discovered the wonders of cannabis back in 1970, when I sit down for serious music listening, I am almost always in an ASC with it. There were plenty of other substances involved through the years, especially in the 1970's, but they've all gone by the wayside except cannabis. I don't even drink these days because there's nothing I particularly like anymore! 

@newton_john Great post! I experienced a number of recurring visions as a young child, this to the point I acted out on at least one. Music has also long induced ASC for me, I have very clear memories of specific events and/or feelings I had when hearing certain songs from back in the day, this goes beyond mere nostalgia.

 

My experimentation with using various substances was very much an attempt to replicate the spontaneous and natural ASC. I was very ritualistic and intentional in my use of peyote, LSD (very likely the real Owsley stuff), shrooms, hashish, honey/hash oil. Mostly I used these substances only in natural surroundings, being out in nature is inherent ASC inducer, these substances further heightened ASC. All the stereotypes of feeling as one with the universe are not wrong! The only other time I enjoyed trips was attending certain musical concerts, repeatedly with Frank Zappa, Chick Corea, Weather Report, well remember a laserium presentation of Pink Floyd's "Live at Pompeii" .

 

In any case, haven't done mind altering psychedelics in decades, but listening to my present system, this after decades of building it to this level, probably most replicates those 'highs' from back in the day.

 

I'm also easily hypnotized, had some friends into Earhard Seminars Training back in the day, they'd bring home tapes, have to say they were mind altering to some extent. Also had friends into Wicca,  met some very powerful, charismatic people through them. Also knew people in the 'Children of God' movement. I can understand the lure of cults in that they can often induce ASC in certain susceptible people. Although I dabbled in the above I always kept my distance more an observer rather than a participant,  I've always liked to think of myself as something like Argus, the all seeing creature from Greek mythology. Maintaining a certain objectivity while at the same time participating can bring about it's own sense of mind alteration and wonder. As an aside, love 'Argus' release from Wishbone Ash.

I enjoy my "medical" cannabis for music appreciation but in relatively small doses. Being "wrecked" on the stuff wrecks the music or rather wrecks concentration. Mild sessions wave off repetitive thoughts and other neurotic "loops" and also give the music the same sort qualities we ascribe to tube amps i.e "euphonious distortion." Weed and a tube amp in the chain are for me the best sort of musical symbiosis. Interestingly, if music does not have PRAT I can hear that whether stoned or sober; so I don't think a cannabis high is necessarily an obstruction or degeneracy.

A new discovery for me has been Lion's Mane mushroom extracts. Ingestion of this material improves focus and concentration while also relaxing you. It is like an extremely mild stone, or a very vague stone if you will that can be a bit of an oompf  for music appreciation and maybe moreso when taken with a little cannabis.

Lion's Mane Mushroom is wildly popular for enhancing cognition especially so for people such as myself who are entering their "golden years"

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DKZZFCE?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

 

My headphone listening  are increased in focus in the dark with salt lamp to create atmosphere (orange color) but eyes opened....

I "see" music....

The rare occasion i take THC i can see music also exactly like a movie with abstracts dynamics...

Sound  (acceptable S.Q.) disappear to let music spoke in geometrical fractals patterns...

If i take nothing i "see" patterns also but in a less concrete way...

I always prefer if the headphone or the speakers are good  acoustically listening with eyes opened because i see better the patterns, or the instruments...

 

Now i had an acceptable sound quality level satisfaction, sound does not distract me from music... That was my goal in my audio journey, not reaching the best system which is out of my budget but the optimal acoustic level with what i own...

 

@hilde45 

Thank you for starting this thread, thus giving me the opportunity to spew out all my thoughts on altered states of consciousness.

Someone once told me that ideas are worthless unless communicated. I also find that that they are better out than in for the sake of my peace of mind.

What started out as a reflection on the virtues of vinyl records became a learning opportunity for me. Also, it’s enabled me to join up some more of the dots in my life.

Sorry post was so long. I edited out most of the personal recollections. Otherwise it would have been twice the size.

I bet you didn’t think your thread would be coming back to life four years later.

 

 

 

@larsman 

Thanks. Glad to hear cannabis is still doing it for you.

I sometimes think about trying it again. Unfortunately, my wife would not approve because she thinks it could get her struck off as a nurse. 

@sns 

Thank you. Some interesting insights there.

I didn’t know that about where Wishbone Ash got the name Argus from. It’s a favourite of mine, too. I’ve bought it twice and am still on the lookout for a clean vinyl copy. My son and I went to see Andy Powell’s latest version of the band recently. My son loved it, despite being born thirty years after their heyday. It was great to share the experience with him, even though I missed the other members of the original lineup. 

I am happy this thread has resurrected itself, lots of cool info and thoughts here.

Also got a good laugh out of the squares using the word "pothead" perjoratively!  Thanks Sgt. Friday!

Lake Shore Drive

Shroom tea. 

Consumers suffer from "altered states" of consciousness often, under the effect of marketing...

They believe that changing a good dac for another good one "an upgrade" they will hear more differences in sound  than  putting a piece of shungite on the dac or a quartz on the connector...Or putting a Shumann generator near one...

I dont believe marketing...

My altered state comes from listening music  after i had tuned the room  acoustics parameters among others  "incredible" feat  ( a dude here even doubted that i could tune a bunch of Helmholtz resonator by ears so much ignorant he was in mechanical acoustics and i was able to  locate them at the right spot to modify the pressures zone...)

 Acoustics experiments are like THC effect : addictive...

 And yes i use shungite, quartz, Schumann generators, and Helmholtz resonators, the improvement resulting from that is way over most dac upgrade...

The difference between most good dac on some price level for an average system are minute difference.

By the way no dac  sound the same put on different gear and room. More than that they dont sound the same if the system in which they are is treated and controlled or not...

Music alter the consciousness state, it is why music has nothing to do with taste, chose carefully the music you will listen to... Suspend your innate or acquired taste and explore other part of your consciousness...

Learn acoustics and read sound as we read a book...

 

the negative is I often just fall asleep and miss the good stuff

Legacy media 

Interesting topic. 

"Ludes and Jack Daniels was always a good combination in my early days of critical listening.

Now that takes me way back

An edible before an evening listening session does the ears good!

@bolong - that's interesting about those Lion's Mane mushrooms; wasn't familiar with those. There's a 'mushroom church' a few blocks from where I live where you can go and buy 'shrooms as 'sacrament'. That's the only kinda church you'll get ME in! 

As I recall, smoking pot always aided in my concentration and enjoyment of music. I haven't done it in many years though because there were too many other undesirable side effects.

Imaging and sound staging have always been critical for me in inducing ASC, the illusion of having real live flesh and blood performers in my room with present setup brings about this state without the need for any ingested substances. Not to say I don't like a bit of bourbon with my listening sessions these days, the Lions Mane sound intriguing.

 

 

Beers,Pot,thc,Mushrooms, will modify your interpretation of music perception , not the objective quality of sound perception.

only acoustics can do this.

I used acoustics parameters controls by my ears  as a tuning instrument to reach ectasy...It is not perfect... It is optimal for me....It cost me nothing...

Acoustics is not just mere  panels on walls.There is concepts to put at play and devices we can control.

 

Drugs of any kind are fun but , acoustics is the best drugs with no negative effects...

Understanding what we hears is like a blind person  using echo-localization, it is freedom from the jail of marketing and a way to become creative...

Acoustics? That absolutely makes no sense in the context of this conversation, although being chained to a chair in anechoic  chamber while being forced to listen to the entire Ring cycle would likely lead to either a transcendent experience or a sore butt. "Ludes and Jack Daniels" is hilarious, and injects a needed dose (!) of gonzo into this conversation. As a professional musician for many decades I can attest to the sort of trance-like state you can get into especially during soloing, but I can also attest to playing a well known piece of music live and thinking about laundry or my cousin Shirley even though I don't have a cousin Shirley.  I smoke pot while listening just to change up my biological input, but I've certainly had countless wonderful music moments without it. An attentive crowd can really get your blood pumping...highly recommended. 

I hadn't joined AG when this thread was started, or I would have contributed then.

To address the OP's issue, I have not used substances for critical listening, although I enjoy their ASCs for pleasure listening.  One issue for critical listening, e.g., when comparing components, is that an ASC might interfere with the short-term memory needed to recall what one has heard.  Auditory short-term memory is thought to be fragile under normal circumstances, and I think it is worsened by substance-induced ASCs.

....when the 'Gon posts 'go oblique' is where truth in audio tastes reside... ;)

Personally, I apply both states at leisure* and compare notes.
* hear = always of late getting shorter, now and in the long run, which shortens every damn day...😒 ;)

Anyway, thc, and it's current variations on the theme are most likely roundabout here...drinking only when the desire to short oneself to 'ground' seems to be a vaguely illogical Rx.  

Been known to 'mix my media' audially and chemotherapaticly....BUT

'ludes & Jack.....
Nutz...back in SF some decadents' ago, I saw a young fem in her car plated
ROHR454
"High🤷‍♂️Bust me..." 🙄😏 
Takes a lot of all kinds to stuff the aquarium, yes....

Lucy S. Diamonds eventually made everything seem to be made out of polyethylene, and rushing around had enough complexity going...post of that, yeah...  Waiting for the echos in one's gray mush to settle...*L*

Current interest re that is use for the Full STOP at the end of this physical endeavour....ego death prior to main event...
Ultimately...appreciate y'all, but at the end of The Day

;) But........a late & fitting 'bro valentine carol to y'all

Have a great weekend....J

One issue for critical listening, e.g., when comparing components, is that an ASC might interfere with the short-term memory needed to recall what one has heard. 

Good point. I'm talking about relatively small amounts. Have you heard the expression, "You're overthinking it"? I believe that an ASC might help shift of focus toward new foci for attention that are currently overshadowed by an overemphasis on something else. Sometimes I'll focus on instrument placement, and a friend will say, "try to zoom out and hear the grouping," or stuff like that. This is what an ASC can do – and note-taking helps with the memory piece. 

Beers,Pot,thc,Mushrooms, will modify your interpretation of music perception , not the objective quality of sound perception. only acoustics can do this.

You are in direct contact with non-interpreted reality. You can hear sounds objectively and then interpret them. That's not how my brain/mind work. I guess we're built differently. Everything I hear is interpreted. The question (for me not you) is how to make sure my interpretations are not stuck in a rut.

I bet you didn’t think your thread would be coming back to life four years later.

There are a lot of things I thought were gone for good from four years ago. I have some hope for this thread, though.

@hilde45 ...."There's life in that old post yet..." 👍😎🎶

@mahgister ....sounds like my 'reality', whatever it is...not much on candles 'n such.....*G*

Beers,Pot,thc,Mushrooms, will modify your interpretation of music perception , not the objective quality of sound perception. only acoustics can do this.

You are in direct contact with non-interpreted reality. You can hear sounds objectively and then interpret them. That’s not how my brain/mind work. I guess we’re built differently. Everything I hear is interpreted. The question (for me not you) is how to make sure my interpretations are not stuck in a rut.

 You forget that there exist 2 contextual  meanings of the word biases and interpretation here.

The first context is conscious use of substance(beers &drugs) to create an acoustically distorted subjective experience of music and sound...

The second context is conscious use of acoustic condition to modify your own perception and interpretation of sound and music...

I do not hear sound objectively as you claimed i use objective acoustic concepts and parameter to modify my subjective interpretation of sound and music...(ASW/LV ratio is objective concepts and parameters which we can use to control or not the system/ears/room, it refer also to a modified or altered conscious experience of sound )

Everything we hear is interpreted consciously and unconsciously , saying this is a common place evident fact, but acting on our conscious experience of this interpretation and biases using acoustics or beer are two different factors...

I only add to the ,beer,pot,mushroom, common place factors a less known factor...

Acoustics is also an altered state of consciousness as music is in itself, with beers and pot or without...

Observe that my opinion about acoustics experience and controls "as an altered state of consciousness" wed together the subjective interpretation in and with perception and the objective aspect of perception  into one  relatively communicable experience.