Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding).
What, in your experience, are the pluses and minuses of altering your state of mind for listening? This can include anything you've used to affect your everyday state of mind, from coffee, beer, scotch, tobacco, to much stronger — and psychoactive, dissociative — additives.
What do you gain by altering your consciousness in terms of what you notice, attend to, linger on, etc? What causes more details to emerge? What allows you to stick with a thread or, alternately, make new connections?
Or perhaps you like to keep all those things *out* of your listening; if that's you, please say a bit about why.
I find THC to give a hyper sharp focus. It can also turn on the the illuminated, 3 dimensional inner landscape of visuals, sound, emotions and an ineffable blend of them all, that I would bet many a person doesn't even suspect is there to be experienced. (won't even go into what other substances have to offer) Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts.
"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."
“Our normal waking consciousness . . . is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the flimsiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different." William James
We have just so many breaths allotted to us. In the end, it's just a question of knowing yourself. Get curious if you are not now. Or continue dreaming. Who is there to care?
I remember the listening scene from the '70s where I grew up (not far from hillbilly country) and what was a listening session was in reality a party, with bodies on the lawn the next morning. Thankfully, I wasn't one of them. I do most of my listening alone. At one time, I belonged to a club (NYC crowd that met in Westchester and other places) and had my share of sessions with OPS ("other people's systems"). This was obviously before the Internet, which changed how we communicate, putting present circumstances aside for the moment. I'm sure I learned during those listening sessions; what the equipment at the time was capable of, what a really good reproduction of double bass or piano (hard to do) is like. I find myself listening alone quite a bit and I'm good with that. In fact, when I have had people over during the years (and this extends for decades), I wanted to make sure they were impressed. But me, alone, exploring music without regard to making sure the stuff is "buffed to a show finish" is a different kind of experience. And in that, I do find some jewels. I continue to learn, about artists and their music, and in the process, reassess my perspective on what music is.
You’re one of the “know-it-all’s” on the forum who loves telling others they are “hearing things” or wasting their money when you’re too ignorant to understand something … and now we learn you’re a pothead?
Decades ago I took some sort of acid and thought my friends car stereo was the best I had ever heard. I believe mushrooms had a similar effect on me. The interesting thing is that both increase ones sensitivity to seratonin, which is similar to staying up a long time with no sleep, but seratonin also builds up the longer one is awake, so perhaps that’s why those late night listening sessions sound so good- as well as quieter electric grid.
daj makes a point. When I was between 18 and 22, I used cannabis on a regular basis and found that when listening to music, it turned down the "noise" in my head as well as peripheral thoughts and allowed me to connect with the music deeply much more easily, with a relaxed concentration. I then used it only on rare occasions up until I was around 40, noting the same effects. In the end, I decided to stop using it altogether because I hated the unpleasant side effects and found that for me, it just wasn't worth it in total. Thinking now of some of the unpleasant parts of using it, I recall being very surprised in recent years when I heard that people were using it for pain relief. It always had the opposite effect on me. Any small ache or pain that I had seemed greatly amplified after smoking. Everyone's different. For me, it just got played out over time. I know people my age who still smoke every day.
I find THC to give a hyper sharp focus. It can also turn on the the illuminated, 3 dimensional inner landscape of visuals, sound, emotions and an ineffable blend of them all, that I would bet many a person doesn't even suspect is there to be experienced. (won't even go into what other substances have to offer) Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts.
This whole question comes down to personal experience and preference. There's no rigth or wrong, just a lot of opinions. And like they say, opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one but people usually don't want to hear someone else's.
if you’re willing to share, would love to hear what your top 2-10 reference tracks are - digital/vinyl. Impressive regimen. And system!
i listen 30+ hours a week........for the last 20+ years. i’ve always enjoyed comparing formats......and gear investigations. and i have lots of media in discs, files , pressings, and reels of tape. so naturally i’ve always done plenty of comparing things and so that led to finding my most effective method over time. it was no accident or casually arrived at.
my pictures and gear list from that link is now a year or so old, so there are some additions not listed. a 4th tt, headphones and a headphone amp are not listed.
track 11, about 3:20 is a glass harmonica which will either be real or just a hint. it is very delicate, well defined and clear, sweet and soaring when it’s done right. can be smeared and indistinct on some gear. no place to hide and separates the real from the pretenders. i own the 16/44, the dsd file, SACD and the 24/88 file. the 24/88 (the source resolution from the recording) is much better than the others. her voice is divine.
i have a 24/352 dxd file of Aerosmith’s "Sweet Emotion" which is direct transfer from the master tape. the beginning of this song is a holographic spectacular. and this file is a revelation......and so far is typically the best digital i or anyone i’ve played it for has heard. again; it demands everything from my system spatially and dynamically, and reveals any shortfalls. and when i’ve improved my digital this cut has really shown that. i doubt this file can be found commercially.
i will try and list some others when i have time.
if you are ever in the Seattle area you would be very welcome to visit and i will play a number of my reference test cuts for you.
Roadwhorerwcords, we always plucked the center fibers out, they supposedly contained strychnine. I'm not a chemist, just never got sick. Most of the hurlers did not get sick with the tea. The tea was perked in a coffee pot with sticks and seeds that would have been wasted otherwise. Music was always played loud-but clean. No matter what, the taste was horrible.
After a stressful day or week ,kicking back with 🥃 or smoke of choice to be in a relaxed state is a pleasant experience with your favorite music 🎶 is a ☮️ full state of mind, or just a calming meditation recording , whatever suits you best is best !!
Flash-bangs are not grenades, there’s no shrapnel. Disorienting bright flash & loud noise, that’s it. Prevented many bad outcomes. Maybe problematic in your family’s hands…
Some big cop-hating issues you’ve got there.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You saw a lot of money? You saw what was LEFT.. Give me a break.. How many times did YOU pat people down and walk away with THEIR money, their GUN, their pocket knife, their anything? LOL plenty of times...
I return pins at work too.. I didn't steal nuts bolts or ANYTHING, including TIME. Tell about the "GOOD" works you did.. BLABBIN away setting side by side blabbing half the night passing a bottle, or watching out while your partner taps a local prostitute for the "weekly" right to work the corner payment.. ..
LA cops impounding Latino kids cars behind a joint in the ashtray. DIRTY? How many times?
I’m glad you did your 25, I did 49 years of WORK... BTW Shot twice, stabbed once..
I did 89 days in a cage in Panama, behind DIRTY COPS, and payola. I’m angry hell, I’m livin’ proof!!!
AND I’ve never hated a soul in my life. What they did YES..
Like I said COWARDS, Like I said Hand Grenades, Like I said DIRTY..
If you used flash bangs in the US. PRISON!!!
Countless people in jails, behind drugs and Vice. 1800 cops and you only new a few that were drug/Vice abusers..
You’re exactly the cop I was talking about.. Complete denial as you sip your single malt.. I can always spot an abuser of LIFE and then has the gall to defend it.. Sip away BARNEY. The compassion and abuse I’ve seen from the very same person that is every bit as messed up as the crackhead they were busting..
It’s never the drug it’s the person who is NEVER responsible. 50% of people admit to OCD behavior, the other 50% are in DENIAL.
I suppose there were "Good shoots" too, as some kid lays dead behind a cell phone. How many times.. "I THOUGHT" I saw a weapon.
Texas two years ago. 3 dead behind a warrant. The Dog, The Wife, The Husband. 59, 49, (dog unknown but dead). Someone ASKED where to buy heroin from someone in the house, who happened to be an informant.
He WAS a VET.. A state full of drunks and they murder people behind a warrant and ASKING where to buy something.. Just like bounty hunting and private prisons.. Put the whole lot in their own revolving prison door.
Let a thief go but hold a prostitute. One is making money, one is stealing money.. Usually payola of one "KIND" or the other..
@ianb52 Good point about the "paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun"
I suppose my question is not whether critical listening should be done all the time but if an instance or two of listening done in these states might break one’s ruts and open up a new insight. That insight could be carried into a critical listening session without any altered state. We do this with books all the time -- read, immerse, get an insight, then carry it forward and apply it once the book is closed.
You convey this scenario really well in your reminiscence about how tripping "produced musical experiences that I had never even conceived and permanently altered the way I hear things."
It might also be the case that the "paradox" you mention could be sidestepped by micro-dosing.
@daj
"Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts."
Zing! And then you quote William James! One of America’s greatest, most creative, most open-minded, geniuses. To read James is to expand consciousness itself. Well done!
It was not my intention to create a referendum on drug use, casual or habitual. Obviously, for many on this forum, it’s a trigger. My OP asks a very specific question about audiophile listening and the fine-tuning of a system with critical listening supplemented -- or not -- with altered states. The fact that *this* question has been taken as a tee-up of a different question ("Are drugs good or not" or some other general question) is, um, a sociological result I wasn’t expecting. But noted, nonetheless!
When cannabis, which has been a medicine ever since it has been on the planet, is finally "discovered" to be beneficial in may ways, as well as psychoactive components in mushrooms and other "plants" on the planet, I suppose all the drunks among the population will begin arguing for THEIR "drug of choice."
This nation is steeped in ignorance and denial about so many items today. I am sure those who decry cures that are not yet "approved" will rail against whatever "discoveries" are made in the future.
After all, in today's world of the perpetually apoplectic, another "healthy" cigarette (4 out of 5 DOCTORS recommend KENT with the micronite filter!!) and a couple shots of straight 100-year-old scotch or whatever, peace will be found in THEIR drugs of choice and people using "newfangled" medical discoveries will be considered the fools.
Excuse me OP I get a little wound up about Vice.. What can I say.. I try to keep it in check.. and I have for 40 years.. Drugs, gamblin’, sex, traveling, anything that is a problem in someone else’s life, is a problem in everyone’s life.. EXCEPT the person in denial.. Like I said that 50% of the people..
Choosing to help the world is still a choice, no one was drafted.. Then bellyache about the choice. PTSD.. I got PTSD from SFPD, how’s that. LOL
I think I’ll get altered.. "TILT" puff puff pass. Play on Carlos, play on.. Got to change your Evil ways’
Hat on the floor as I slowly walk around to the beat of the music and my faithful dog follows me. I stop.. I slowly back around the hat.. Olay Amigo.. I like salsa.. I'm an American Irishman and Sioux go figure..
My audio journey was launched sober, but really took off on pot. There was a barrier to listening vs. being “convinced” that pot seemed to help remove. I no longer partake, and my tinnitus prevents me from trusting my judgement on what sounds best, but I can fairly say my best years as an audiophile were spent high. And nitrous oxide? There’s a barrier buster!
I will take this topic to a different point of view. In the past have I enjoyed getting drunk, stoned, or both together yes I have. Have I enjoyed listening to music in that state of mind yes. But now as I have aged and refrained from the mind altering aids in an effort to increase my health I now have the ability to use my system and the music as my “high”. My room my system the music is my get away from the issues that life can toss at me. Every now and then I will think a quick hit of weed would be interesting but then a half hour into a good artist and album quickly gives me the mind altering get away that I am looking for with no weed needed. Enjoy the music any way you can get it!
Back in the late sixties-early seventies I thought ( as so many did too) that listening to music required an altered state. It took my mind away from the “ engineering mode” and allowed me to just indulge in the music. It was nice while it lasted.
In bumbling feeble attempt to answer the original question...
For true critical listening I believe that completely sober is the way to go.
Ok, now that we got that out of the way, I also believe that a little buzz can add enjoyment to the experience. And I have heard things that I didn't notice in a sober state. I attempt to take note and at some later sober date see if it sounds the same as buzzed.
BTW I'm chuckling at myself as I type "buzz" and "sober" because I only alter my states in a very minor enjoyable way. The days of getting blasted and listening to music are far behind me now.
Tell me about it when you try and flip the record, fumble, and then have to decide if you should raid the 529 account or not. I tease.
That said, listening in altered states takes the gear not just to another level, but a whole new perspective, and increases the joy of not just the equipment, but the music, the lyrics, and reflections on life in general. Also, when you want to buckle down in life, rediscovering certain sounds and music in complete sobriety can also be cathartic.
Too bad the streaming versions of Anna Netrebko, Sempre Libera distort terribly. Sounds like she is clipping her mic. Not sure, but not playable at moderately loud levels. First time I have heard this sort of popping/fluttering distortion when streaming. Both Tidal and Qobuz have the same issue with this recording.
When first starting my journey in pursuit of audio excellence tone controls were tabu. I have always stayed on course with that philosophy. The sound in a good system does not need to be altered nor does my listening ability.
Too bad the streaming versions of Anna Netrebko, Sempre Libera distort terribly. Sounds like she is clipping her mic. Not sure, but not playable at moderately loud levels. First time I have heard this sort of popping/fluttering distortion when streaming. Both Tidal and Qobuz have the same issue with this recording.
tonight when i get home i will try the Tidal and Quboz versions of that cut and compare them to my dsd and 24/88 files and report back. i don’t recall those artifacts from the streaming versions, but it’s been awhile since i listened to them.
if you can download the file, it’s a worthy recording to own if you like the music.
i’ve been using this cut as a reference for over 10 (maybe 15) years now. initially it was the SACD disc that i used. i would listen to both the dsd and redbook layers. then later i got the 24/88 file and found it was clearly better as it was the native file. then when i got my MSB Select II (a bit-perfect dac) the native file was even better by a larger margin.
none of those versions ever had distortion like the clipping you are describing. it was more levels of clarity and degrees of delicacy.
I like the way the guy with the best selection of liquor I ever seen right outside his listening room door chooses instead from a range of fine bottled water. Scratch that. Not seen. Tasted. Enjoyed. Relished. He also has some to die for master tapes. But what I really want to know Mikelavigne is where oh where can I get me some of that Angel’s Envy???
Something not addressed regarding the altered states of critical creation. Much of the music we adore comes at the detriment of the artist who created it.
Was Rickie Lee Jones much more creative as an alcoholic? The Beatles took a lot of
hallucinogenic (and other) drugs to create some of the best music of all time.
I'm not suggesting opioid use for anyone but alternate states of mind can allow you to make connections that weren't there previously. They can be a training tool to help you listen differently.
Whether you imbibe, don't imbibe believe in power cables or not it's all a personal choice. We still have the ability to choose.
I really miss these artists but would I if they hadn't partook in the poison that killed them?
Thanks for confirming what I said. So with you it’s, gambling, traveling or drugs (god forbid a sex nut (one of the worst besides gamblers).
I was a shop steward for many years. The worst thing was telling a lady why her husband was being arrested at WORK for stealing thousands of gallons of fuel behind GAMBELING. One of several I knew. This guy even sold the tire chains off the rig in Reno and couldn't leave unless he was chained up.. THAT'S what started the whole 4 year sentence, in Quentin. He got violent with the cops.. I don't think he would have done time, if not for that stupid screw up.. 4 years...
The guy I was just working for squandered, millions from a company and lost a franchise behind TRAVELING, to nowhere just to travel. LOOK at a picture for god sakes..
Weed.. it is a gift from my forefather along with tobacco to the western world from the native folks that were here before. The other side of my lineage brought booze to the Americas.. oh yes.. I stay away from it all together.. No Beer, No Wine, no Strong drink.. My green eyed black Irish father taught me that. Quite the war hero, quite the drunk. I loved HIM not his drinkin’.. I’m surprised my sweet mother didn’t light the bed on fire..
Confused? NO!!
Informed, yes. AND when you find and OLD boy you know what to do with HIM don’t you..
I think I’ll get altered AGAIN and go feed the chickens.. Water melon eatin’ chickens..
I find my enjoyment of music, the emotional content of the music, the power, subtlety and beauty of the music, is considerably enhanced by the occasional application of a little grandpa weed (low TCH, high CBD). Am I listening more critically or more accurately? Who cares? The point is to create a more emotional reaction to the music in that moment.
I will buy the CD and rip it. I had some friends with differing systems play the same track on Qobuz and Tidal. Same popping result. The distortion shut down my amp! It was at moderate listening levels. When she reaches her strongest and highest notes the fluttering starts!
Mike Lavigne, thanks for your thoughtful response. This is what makes audio so much fun. Music lovers like us, and lucky enough to have a decent playback system, seek out this knowledge from those who have been there, done that. Great topic. Personally, I don’t “enjoy “ critical listening. It’s just one of those things, skills, we need for evaluation. Some folks have the golden ears and some don’t, it seems. So all your suggestions are indeed, helpful! I love my system, room…and I really enjoy having my Audiofoo friends over for a long evening of good tunes, refreshments and whatever enhances the experience. FYI, last night I played The Pusher, by Steppenwolf, as a warning to all my crazy friends.
Cannabis and music have gone together for me since I was a teenager, and I just turned 70. That's for either listening at home or going to a gig.... Used to enjoy music with acid and 'shrooms, but it's been 3 or 4 decades since I indulged in those!
It's interesting how different people take the question in opposite directions. It's an interesting question, not because it questions the use of mind altering substances, but because it opens the door to questioning the mind itself. What's the difference between the music and your mind? Can they be separated? I hope these are not debatable questions.
My condolences to anyone who would use the term "pothead" in a thread like this.
@millercarbon Lagavulin is close to the tops for me; 16 years and ready for love. I'm also a big Talisker fan. Laphroig is too smoky/peaty but those others march me up as close as I need.
Thanks for the tips. Whiskey flavors are so distinctive it is great in the sense you can find "the one" that is pure magic which I always imagined but never experienced until Angel's Envy. Delicious! Found myself holding it in my hand allowing the warmth to release more aroma, which made it like slow-motion sipping enjoying the smell as much as the taste, then holding it in my mouth putting off swallowing as long as possible because then that wonderful flavor goes down the gullet. But then comes the warmth and the finish, the lingering never-ending finish. Have I mentioned I like this stuff???!😍
Just found Metropolitan Market has a bottle and not far from home! Will keep those others in mind for my next visit to Mikelavigne's tasting, er I mean listening room.😁
Initially became an audiophile through exclusive listening to first and only audiophile system in my circle of friends while on hash/honey oil or hashish. The shock of discovering high quality sound, much new music and genres of music, and the buzz from the medication all compounded into meditative states with the right music. My need for altered state prior to listening sessions continued for many years as a result of prior peak experiences from the early listening sessions. Over time repeated exposure to same experience grew old and tired. Then, being 'straight' became the new altered state, this coincided with period of much critical listening. Wholesale changes, systems never in static, I'd often start drinking later in session in attempt to mitigate what I didn't like.
In time, as I learned to put together a coherent system I found myself increasingly immersed in music, not needing much in the way of added enhancement to 'straight' mind. Over the past few years, my system has exclusively delivered an altered state. I may have one or two bourbon based cocktails over five to six hour listening session, so may have a slight impact on state of mind.
The altered state my system, more importantly the music delivers to me is most similar to what I feel when alone out in nature. The world becomes a wonderful, beautiful place for me. Sometimes, with some special music I can even believe that I somehow know the performer, and/or they know me. And so now, far more than my state of mind affecting my perception of music, it is now the music that affects my state of mind, or altered state.
Psilocybin mushrooms were a lot of fun. Humans have been using them for thousands of years. THC is here to stay and will be legal everywhere soon enough. On 5 mg I am perfectly functional and the pain I have does not interfere with me as much. If you don't smoke it it is much less dangerous than alcohol. Long term effects? The long term effect of being alive is death. There is nothing fun about aging. I know many very smart successful people who use THC on a regular basis. Might they be more successful not using? Maybe but, who cares.
My own ability to analyze the quality of a recording or system does not change with lower doses of THC. It might even improve a little. With alcohol I just fall asleep. I never have more than one glass of wine. I use to like scotch but for some reason it makes me sick now, probably aging again. For me the main benefit of THC is that pain interferes less with my ability to perform in the shop or on a bicycle.
I see there are still Victorians among us. The only thing prohibition ever did for us is explode crime. Why give the criminals something to make money on when we can sell it for less and tax it at 50% to boot. We can use everyone's addiction to pave some roads.
Friends, When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time. I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state.
When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions when I am in a naturally clear, settled and analytic state of mind, then the music is almost always engaging and satisfying when I am listening in an enhanced state.
For me personally, my mood is important for the selection of what I listen to. Sometimes late Beethoven string quartets transport me to someplace heavenly, sometimes I do not have the "ears" to listen for more than 2-3 minutes. Sometimes it is Phillip Glass or Avro Paert. Sometimes it isn't classical. Rather Patricia Barber or other vocal jazz does it, or instrumental jazz like Oded Tzur, sometime I need Pink Floyd, or The Rolling Stones, or Tina Dico, or ambient electronic, or Indonesian Gammelan Orchestra, or Carnatic music . . . . Yes, my tastes are varied and eclectic.
Listening for pleasure, to be nourished is a different kind of endeavor compared to listening to compare components. Both of these listening contexts can be completely enjoyable and satisfying yet they are quite different.
I know I will never hear "the best" anything, only what pleases me the most at the time of listening based on my personal preferences and state of mind.
So much enjoyment and nourishment in music well performed, well recorded and well reproduced. To each his own.
Weed, shrooms, mdma and ketamine. All different and all incredible when done right. Ket does make it hard to change the record, best get it done before your bump hits. But then you are just so present in the moment and able to appreciate music in ways you never could have imagined. Lsd often takes me to a place where music makes little sense, unlike shrooms or majic truffles. the ultimate is combining mdma and shrooms, or mandy and k, but only when safely at home- unlike mdma, k is a party killer and was banned from our raves and festivals. Too much stumbling. But fun at home or in a safe environment.
just now, i did try the Quboz 16/44 streaming version of track #11 of Sempre Libera, and i also heard the extreme distortion pulse on peaks. very annoying. sorry about that. i do not recall ever hearing that.
my guess is that either it’s simply a bad transfer, or possibly this recording has no limiters used and it’s too hot somehow. it might be fun to question Quboz about why that is happening and see how they respond.
to make sure this was a Quboz issue, i also sampled my dsd and 24/88 files and they played perfectly as always.
please let me know how the redbook sounds. thanks.
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