Being stuck in a room with disagreeable music for long enough could certainly bring me to cough up certain PIN numbers or whatever else my captors might desire of me. We here have to admit that music is both our strong and weak point and can sometimes be a breaking point as well an inflection point. In other words, music is enough like life that for audiophiles it is life with all its blasted precariousness and adventure.
Critical listening and altered states
Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding).
What, in your experience, are the pluses and minuses of altering your state of mind for listening? This can include anything you've used to affect your everyday state of mind, from coffee, beer, scotch, tobacco, to much stronger — and psychoactive, dissociative — additives.
What do you gain by altering your consciousness in terms of what you notice, attend to, linger on, etc?
What causes more details to emerge?
What allows you to stick with a thread or, alternately, make new connections?
Or perhaps you like to keep all those things *out* of your listening; if that's you, please say a bit about why.
What, in your experience, are the pluses and minuses of altering your state of mind for listening? This can include anything you've used to affect your everyday state of mind, from coffee, beer, scotch, tobacco, to much stronger — and psychoactive, dissociative — additives.
What do you gain by altering your consciousness in terms of what you notice, attend to, linger on, etc?
What causes more details to emerge?
What allows you to stick with a thread or, alternately, make new connections?
Or perhaps you like to keep all those things *out* of your listening; if that's you, please say a bit about why.
296 responses Add your response
@newton_john I've not had much chance. Skimming a bit, I'm very curious in the idea that listening to music while doing other things doesn't necessarily equate to superficial engagement. The notion of "multiply distributed attention" leading to involving experiences where music interacts with and mediates our perception of the environment is something I want to investigate. |
Did you get that copy of Everyday Music Listening from the library? How are you getting on with it? I am finding it quite academic in writing style but interesting. I think it’s going to need repeated reading of some chapters to get the most out of it. It is probably also worth exploring a few more recent papers to get a more complete and up to date view. |
@bolong Part and parcel of the human condition. Is reality too much or not enough? |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSDzI0_I4U The "rub" according to Chris Rock. |
Some substance are at the roots of religions... Why not using them in some sacred cirsconstances? I did it with THC for listening the "Christus" of Liszt one of the greatest religious work since Bach...
The first 30 minutes contain what is nearer to a music describing Nature before sin, impossible to describe the simple purest cinematographic image of Eden in music... It is the same with the choral Work of Hildegard of Bingen... I used THC to increase my concentration and focus on each chord... |
@sns - Indeed, when I was in college and taking lots of hallucinogens, some of which we even knew what they were, we were reading all those Castaneda books. One of my best friends' dad made 'Altered States'. |
Generally I'll listen to my favorite radio station all day at work, WCBN FM, Univ. Michigan student run station. So yesterday they played rasta man music for a couple hours, got me back in the old spirit of things! Made me think of the differences between THC and hallucinogens, THC can raise our awareness of certain things, this can help to create a spiritual experience, seeing Marley live in concert at a perfect size venue with fine acoustics while I was high certainly was one of those peak experiences. Had other peak experiences with THC, vast majority far more forgettable, once it becomes daily most of the magic lost. On the other hand you can never forget the hallucinogenic experiences, they alter the mind/brain in a way THC can never come close to. The one thing to be careful with when using hallucinogens is being attentive to state of mind just prior to tripping, no fear or anxiety, just an open mind as to what one is about to experience. I believe having good intentions when making the decision to use mind altering substances is paramount. I always thought back to Carlos Castaneda's, "The Teachings of Don Juan" as a very early compass for my mind altering journeys.
I also mentioned most desiring quiet during trips, I know someone mentioned the movie, "Altered States" in an earlier thread. Seems to me it could be a very anxiety provoking thing to be locked into an isolation tank, with no visual or aural reference/distraction there is only one's mind to absorb the mind, going to a dark place as in the movie could be very possible. |
@rockysantoro .....there was a parody of 'Tighten Up' called the 'Loosen Up' where the players began detuning instruments, the drums went random, and the organist just...well, it's good there wasn't a vid of it..... ;) |
You are right about drugs ! I did not use THC save one time or 2 a year... My ASC experiences are linked to music listening in good acoustics conditions... Some music can be very powerful.... I use some specific album since 20 years for example to relieve stress and it is as powerful as a drug... To merely relax i had many other choices... To accelerate the thinking or creative process as writing, nothing beat Bach or Choral music for me... To enter into more subjective moods i can use Jazz or Liszt or Scriabin or Chopin etc ...
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The issue is THC not a hallucinogen, if we are seeking altered states this not enough. Not against using various substances for system and music enjoyment, but I see the goal of high end audio to induce the altered state without the need for these substances, this what I mean by sustainable. I'd suggest medicinal/pharmaceutical substances not sustainable in that they can severely impact our physical and/or mental well being. I know this from first hand experience having gone through drug rehab, and I've know far too many casualties who never sought rehab/therapy. Using mind altering substances on a regular basis can be difficult, as they say moderation is the key. |
@puptent ....Thurston didn't hang with me....😏 When down to sticks 'n stems, the 'long beyond needing to be committed' hippie tykes get creative.... ;) Gets a bit 'raw', but....no pain no gain....db or otherwise.... Planning a run to the MAF in 8/'25 with my mutants....be there or blow it off. I will be obvious.... ...and not as obnoxious as you might think or fear.... ;) |
Very deep observation ! Thanks.
I felt the same, once we lived through a ASC musical experience driven by THC you felt it always stored in our body memory ready to reveal to us again, even without THC, how the music content (visual in my case and derived from the music ) spoke to our consciousness as from a higher level of meaning.
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My goal with high end audio has always been to induce high levels of ASC without the need for other stimulants/mind altering additions. Perhaps this has something to do with my experiences with hallucinogens at live concerts in which visual stimuli far overwhelmed aural stimuli. I can't recall a single thing about the music or sound, all my memories wrapped up in the visual, specifically, sometimes the performers became the actual, physical instruments they were playing. Hallucinogens worked best for me out in nature, nature's vast visual stimuli was totally engrossing, again can't recall any aural stimuli. Best trips by far for me was in relatively quiet environments, nature best provided that.
As for creating new and/or better ASC experiences, perhaps that's the very thing that drives at least some audiophiles. We continually try to improve our systems in order to derive some greater connection with the music. In recent years I've been quite content with the performance of my system and connection to the music. Every listening session results in total engagement with the musicians, the sense of living, breathing performers in the room doesn't take much if any effort. In retrospect I can recall all the years in which it took a fair amount of 'mind tricks' in order to reach deep engagement levels, the result was stress which foreshortened listening sessions and formulations as to how I could improve my system. Every listening session these days is a unique experience directed by the Roon robot (random play mode) which chooses the next artist on play list. I'm being taken on a mind excursion trip in whichever direction the robot and artist choose to take me. I'm liking this vs me being the director, so I guess this relatively new ASC experience.
I'm at point where my system can provide a SUSTAINING ASC experience, while the memories or lessons learned from using various mind altering substances can last a lifetime, they can't provide a 'natural' or sustaining ASC experience, they are 'manufactured' experiences in the sense they physically alter our brain chemistry. While it is true all ASC experiences result in brain chemistry changes, better for emotions/feelings to change it vs various physical substances. |
@mahgister ...an image search, and it's yours. ;) Cover up that delicti corpus that age threatens all with....;) Somehow I've managed to pass on the pudge ...127 @ 5'7", down from 150's @ 5'11"...always preferred nimble over strength, although the latter has usually been enough.... The carriage rattles 'n prattles along....music keeps the witless knitted to varied degrees..... I like my bad habits....they seem to have kept yours unruly mostly heaped up. |
Very good question! thanks. I optimized my K340 (6 modifications ) in 6 months of experiments and thinking... I dont liked it so much after buying it , i experimented with it because i had no other choices after the selling of my house and my first dedicated room. One this is said i do not "reconfigured" the K340.. The K340 has a dedicated cell for bass, a dedicated cell for highs frequencies.. I cannot reconfigure that without destructing his amazing properties linked to the right crossover point at 4,000 Hertz and to his dual acoustic chamber with 5 tuned resonators. I only optimized it helping his working pieces to reach their peak potential...( --suppression of the protective thick grid, --right pads which is very important because the size of the pads and their acoustic properties are critical matter for the dual chamber optimal working,--equalization,--right amplification is critical,control of resonance and vibration with 2 different materials,-- a dac cleaner than warm )
Now when i spoke about the Highs as "honey" i was referring to exceptional recording of violin acoustically... (Tacet Vivaldi tube only recording for example ) With a bad recording i will not get this "flying" wings of angels with violin... I had other recordings of violin way less spectacular...The highs are not as spectacular...They are only good without any stressing effect... But i had none with stridency and stressful sound... Stridency of violins result most of the times from the gear synergy or bad design in my experience...Or someimes but more rarely from bad recordings i guess.. I remember the horrible highs of my planar Hifiman 400 driven by two dacs and 2 amp very popular 10 years ago which were strident and horrible, unnatural, especially badly driven... Also my low cost Stax presented unnatural highs... But not the Stax SR5 gold though which was good in tonality and timbre...Not as natural as the K340 at all though... Naturalness of timbre is the most difficult factor to get right with headphone... I never succeed with any of the three types of headphones i owned (10 headphones) only the K340 did it for me, once i learned how to use this complex headphone, criticized once by reviewer who think that they can plug it on anything and call it job done..( they described the integration of the 2 cells are unsuccessful. I know now why they experienced this ) i think AKG discarded it after few years because it was too costly to produce it and make big profit and too costly to optimize it and improve it... They created another flagship the K1000 (apparently no deep bass but good spatialization). ( Kennerton official few years ago say to me they do not go on with the idea to create a real good hybrid because of the ratio cost/profit for research and manufacturing and the K340 is not a portable headphone with a low impedence etc )
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Oh, my aging brain! ;o/ I didn't intend to post such an incomplete (and possible cryptic) message. What I mean to to ask was whether you view "sweetness of tone" as inherent to the violin and regard any stridency as an artifact of poor audio performance or whether you have deliberately configured your headphone system to present a "sweeter" tonality simply because it's what you prefer, esthetically. |
I had it for years and did not read him yet... Thanks to remind me i must die soon and then must read it sooner...
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I know it seems a ridiculous set of metaphors, especially out of his context, but it was what i felt listening to it when my optimization process was completed. Remember that i never enjoyed the high frequencies on any of my system as i enjoyed bass and deep bass. It was the first time in all my audio journey. And these metaphors conveyed my subjective feelings of this moment. Now i am a highs frequencies head in a way... I like violin much more... The point is an audiophile system must gave high frequencies enjoyable to the most level possible as well as deep bass..
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You quoted me wrong sns.. This is my text :
Everybody knows that the first thing to solve is gear design quality and synergy and this cannot be replaced by acoustics magic... But AFTER the buying is done, nothing replace acoustics controls , no upgrade will improve the system room so much importantly and effectively ...Even for an upgrade evaluation it is better to have a good acoustics control of the room... I had insisted on this because the "disease" of audio is upgrading gear race...And acoustics ignorance... |
Yep, the idea that past experiences of ASC would influence us going into the future. This was always part of my intention when seeking ASC, per the band 'Doors', opening the doors of perception. Some have called this mind expansion, I can think of so many ways in which this serves me well to this day. When one is consistently mindful of the known unknowns they remain curious, and we all know curiosity is the mother of invention. When one is curious much more likely to follow their own path, this can serve you well in your audio pursuit.
As per ASC and external substances, I've never listened to a high end system when under the influence of hallucinogens, just the live concerts.
@mahgister But on the other hand no piece of gear can replace acoustic control impact to gain natural timbre and sound spatial characteristics...
The equipment can greatly affect both timbre and spatial characteristics. Over many decades have been through much equipment, specifically amps, in order of use, class a/b solid state, class a SS, push pull tubes, SET tubes. SET tubes my final destination, this likely very much allied to their relatively high levels of 2nd order harmonic distortion, a pleasing, some say more natural timbre. I've also found spatial characteristics are much affected by equipment. I'd add loudspeakers make perhaps the largest impression on both timbre and sound staging. Roon acoustics are like the icing on the cake, they allow the full potential of the equipment to come shining through. |
See lots of takes here and I get all sides, keeping clear mind no need for altering etc... Someone mentioned clearing the mind "Wuji" Being and old school Dead Head I have done my share of experimentation. I do not partake in much of what I had done in the past but occasional Gummy and occasional smoke. That being said nothing creates the oneness with the music like some solid smoke. A single note can send a chill down the spine as you meld with the music and become enveloped. This may be some of my Dead Head seeping in as that is kind of what all Dead Heads do. Probably why many do not get it as they cannot let go and truly get feedback from the music in the body and soul. If you can't become one with the music you are just listening at an auditory level and music is much more than that, there is whole other level of experiencing music. This is why Dead Heads dance so crazy, the feedback of energy comes from within, and some good old THC will lock you in. I may sound like a crazy hippie but if you met me you wouldn't think that at all. Someone asked a question, and the answer led me down this path. Actually, told me I need to smoke more and listen to more music. |
Music experience is a perpetual ASC : as a trance hypnosis, or a spiritual awakenings... What we listen to affect us and our body and it is not just a matter of taste but a matter of education about music and about knowledge... The way to suppress a stressful experience with our audio system is not a new ASC but simple information about what matters in installation of audio system... Acoustics basic knowledge (not a new ASC ) comes first, and acoustics is way more bigger than just room acoustic.. Or we can listen our music without being bother by a sound quality that matter not much for most of us for sure... But for me and many others, a minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold is necessary to forget the system and enter in the music experience as ASC , not just an ASC as trance hypnosis but time to times a spiritual awakenings.
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@12many By the way, I like your handle – clever! Agree that what is heard gets incorporated. I agree with others that music is an ASC. (I mean, what isn't an ASC given certain definitions? That's a rhetorical question, FWIW.) The point of my question (which is not as fun as what others are bringing up, so it's all good) is how do we break out of "ruts" in the way we are presently analyzing our systems? So many people on the forum seem stuck about what to do next, and they look for advice about gear, etc. But one could change a thousand things, and so the problem comes back to how we break out of our larger perspective. An ASC had long ago is of little help, as it has already become routine in our present habit. A new ASC has the potential to shake up present habits, provide an analytical clue, and lead to experimentation with the system or room with greater potential. |
Music is already an ASC and cannot be unheard going deep in us... Playing with sound parameters in a room imply an ASC... Do you know the Barabar site in India ? Nobody knows who did it, the precision is impossible to replicate today, and the caves were probably used as an acoustic tool to create ASC... This stunning documentary is one of the best i had seen recently and say a lot : BARABAR, THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE OF THE FUTUREThis 2 hours is amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF6qv1CC5_4&t=3s But if you want a short introduction : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nGnA0ZrwEk
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I like my K340 so much because being hybrid with a 4,000 Hertz crossover, the two cells work in the mids but the dynamic one from the deep bass higher and the other from the highs to the mids lower...They had an acoustic dual chamber inside then with 5 tuned Helmholtz resonators.The only headphone design as this. Then the medium are so unique and natural... It takes me 6 months of reading and experimenting to understand how they work even reading the patent created by Dr. Gorike their designer and founder of AKG a physicist by formation fascinated by acoustics not an engineer...
Why did i dislike all headphones so much , i tried all types, many dynamics, 2 planars et 2 electrostatic... i dislike them because they sound unnatural generally the mids timbre is unrealistic and artificial... No deep bass and no natural highs...And very important : no out of the head soundfield experience ( the K340 with many classical recording especially gave me that ) The bass and the Highs are very limited on most headphone because a singular cellular membrane of any types work not so well to capture bass resonating in your body and highs celestials sweet as honey and seemingly extended not appearing with a roll off ...( The fact that my hearing is not near my 20 dont change the idea and experience, only the perceived frequencies level where the high peaks and roll off)
A violin played by a not so much great violonist on a not so much great violin yes may sound strident... But some top artist in Vivaldi Bach or Mozert plays so well that hearing their note tonal microdynamis on a very resolving system with a great acoustic, which is what the K340 gave me, i entered heaven... Before the K340 i never even on my speakers (Tannoy) or the others less sophisticated one, i never enjoy violin as much... Often stridence, sibilance, acoustic stress at high volume... I was more a bass head in a way... But with the K340 i cannot be tired of listening the Arte of violin by Locatelli which is almost violins only non stop for hours (3cd). On a bad system in a non controlled room it must be strident and very tiring... On my K340 it is celestial syrup of the most ethereal kind...Like a set of colors distillation at the limit of the visible spectrum flowing and flying ... I own a CD of a Polish version of the 4 seasons of Vivaldi on Tacet, "tube recording only", i cannot be tired of listening it, the violins and especially the solos with the deep bass of the cello create an altered state of consciousness.. the mark of a high end system, the ultimate after having natural timbre, deep bass, spatial localisation of all instruments with their holographic individual tonal volume in space, is the higher frequencies rainbow arc... I never experienced it on speakers because my system was never "high-end" even in my extraordinary well controlled room. But my actual system of choice even if i can use small speakers well embedded acoustically which i modified, my system of choice the only high end one i ever had (quality of gear design) is the K340 driven by the Sansui alpha... The most difficult and the LAST factor to get not only right but very good and celestial is the higher range of frequencies on speakers but especially on headphone... The only headphone i know which is good is the K340... I am not frustrated at all because it will cost me a lot to beat them with speakers...
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Sure. Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems to me, this would be evident to most here. Isn’t this, after all,why music lovers listen?
OK, but there are many flavors of altered states. "Small doses" was actually what I meant by "precise". I never assumed you were talking about getting wasted. Having read your posts for years, that never occurred to me. Thanks for expanding on the topic of "perception as a creative act". Now, another question:
I’m confused. I know you are as aware as I am that a violin, in person, can sound very strident -- quite the opposite of "angelic". So, why offer this as evidence of having optimized your headphones "well"?
I’d just like to say, I find this thread a very stimulating discussion. Much more interesting than talking about gear, although I recognize that has its place.
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We would understand each other well , we had done similar things using different paths and solutions for different system in completely different room, but we know the importance of acoustics control... I had used in a smaller room than you a big grid of distributed and localized Helmholtz resonators (The cheapest one to experiment)... Schumann generators, which i used till today in my new system (only 2), are cherres on a cake...Positioning them is key... They gave an "aura" to the sound volume in space and make the soundstaging more fluid...it was evident in my first dedicated larger room, when i put them off one by one the "aura" vacillate and disappeared...
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Glad you mentioned that. It has become my first reference point for judging a system's (and recording's) quality. So often, they are just a blur. |
I knew my acoustical optimization of my AKG K340 hibryd was done well when i cranked up the highs with tone controls and equalization because the violin sound was enebriating like an angelic silk thread...
If a system dont gave enough bass or beautiful highs and medium as natureal as possible the timbre of instrument, non amplified as amplified is distorted... it is because of this acoustical stress that often people pick their gear piece upgrade to compensate, or some albums in spite of others less easy and natural to listen to... The gear pieces design quality and synergy cannot be replaced but only compensated by acoustics controls, mechanical one mainly in my case and also equalization and tone control. But on the other hand no piece of gear can replace acoustic control impact to gain natural timbre and sound spatial characteristics...
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Obviously every single instrument whether amplified or not, even synths have an inherent timbre. I'd posit the timbre inaccuracies we hear in playback as compared to the original timbre as captured in the studio or live concert are relatively minor for causing stress vs other aspects of sound. I suspect tonal anomalies or imbalances are a much greater cause of listener stress, tonality is a gross measure, more easily heard than the relatively small timbre anomalies we are likely to encounter. On the other hand, I can think of at least one pretty persistent irritant for what I believe to be timbre issue, and that is massed violins, I've yet to experience a fully natural presentation/timbre via digital, vinyl reproduction sounds more like the real thing although digital has continually evolved here.
@mahgister I've long known of your intense experiments with room treatments, interesting diy projects, no doubt you've visualized sound waves. I too have experimented with multiples of off the shelf devices and/or just plain furnishings in listening room. In my experience virtually everything has some effect, 1st reflection points while the most obvious are not close to the end of it. With experimentation I've learned to be far less invasive with 1st reflection points and treat many other reflection points throughout room. Since I don't really have wall behind listening position around 15' into 30'L room opening into a kitchen I got far more immersion into sound field using 6 Synergistic HRT on side walls behind listening position. Having a wall close behind listening position changes the whole equation. I also used multiple Schumann resonators in the past, can also be very effective if used correctly. To reiterate, maximizing sound staging, imaging is extremely important for my ability to easily enter higher levels of ASC, immersion into the sound field meaning stimuli emanating from behind listening position is key. |
I will add that music is naturally, never mind acoustic and audio, an altered states of consciousness and the most universally used.
Speech is a musical gesture socially and individually synchronized with Nature... Each perception may become creative and a dual survival strategies of isolation from Nature (society) and also participation to Nature on a higher level than immediate by creativity. |
Been in there long enough for kitty, too.... ;)