Critical listening and altered states

Forgot to mention subjective physical qualities of our individual brain/ears. Makes me wonder if a truly objective mind can even exist within the ascetic?

Initially became an audiophile through exclusive listening to first and only audiophile system in my circle of friends while on hash/honey oil  or hashish. The shock of discovering high quality sound, much new music and genres of music, and the buzz from the medication all compounded into meditative states with the right music.
My need for altered state prior to listening sessions continued for many years as a result of prior peak experiences from the early listening sessions. Over time repeated exposure to same experience grew old and tired. Then, being 'straight' became the new altered state, this coincided with period of much critical listening. Wholesale changes, systems never in static, I'd often start drinking later in session in attempt to mitigate what I didn't like.

In time, as I learned to put together a coherent system I found myself increasingly immersed in music, not needing much in the way of added enhancement to 'straight' mind. Over the past few years, my system has exclusively delivered an altered state. I may have one or two bourbon based cocktails over five to six hour listening session, so may have a slight impact on state of mind.

The altered state my system, more importantly the music delivers to me is most similar to what I feel when alone out in nature. The world becomes a wonderful, beautiful place for me. Sometimes, with some special music I can even believe that I somehow know the performer, and/or they know me. And so now, far more than my state of mind affecting my perception of music, it is now the music that affects my state of mind, or altered state.

How about if I hire a robot for the objective listening, it will disabuse me of  my emotional connection, aka delusional pleasures of connecting with the music. Millercarbon reminded me the machine/robot doesn't hear. In that case I have to do the objective listening, which I now find out isn't possible with humans.

I'm ok with all this, I'll simply listen and build my system based on what's pleasurable to me.

This word, objectivity, seems to be so misused these days. In regard to listening to an audio system, I could argue its used as what in reality is a subjective state. Objective listening as used here is in reality an evaluative or judgemental state. This is a state with so many subjective variable impositions as to be perhaps the most subjective state one could exist in.

I'd suggest the most objective state humans can exist in are those of the ascetic mind. A state where no desires, wants, needs exist. In this state no judgment or conscious thought exists. In this state, the mind is freed from past and future, only living in the moment. I can only wonder how the mind would interpret sound emanating from an audio system in this truly objective state.
Anyway, I'd suggest the closest we come to an objective state when listening to audio systems is when we are no longer judging the quality of sound, we are only listening to the music emanating from that system. The music takes over the mind, we are living in the moment!

And so, objectivity as used here is in fact one of the most subjective states one could be in. In judgmental state we aren't free from all our prejudices informed by our individual experiences, needs, desires.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for judgmental listening, but understand its not an objective state. Plenty of evidence for that by all the different evaluations of the same equipment, and even by the high likelihood one's system is totally unique amongst all systems on this earth.

@newton_john Great post! I experienced a number of recurring visions as a young child, this to the point I acted out on at least one. Music has also long induced ASC for me, I have very clear memories of specific events and/or feelings I had when hearing certain songs from back in the day, this goes beyond mere nostalgia.

 

My experimentation with using various substances was very much an attempt to replicate the spontaneous and natural ASC. I was very ritualistic and intentional in my use of peyote, LSD (very likely the real Owsley stuff), shrooms, hashish, honey/hash oil. Mostly I used these substances only in natural surroundings, being out in nature is inherent ASC inducer, these substances further heightened ASC. All the stereotypes of feeling as one with the universe are not wrong! The only other time I enjoyed trips was attending certain musical concerts, repeatedly with Frank Zappa, Chick Corea, Weather Report, well remember a laserium presentation of Pink Floyd's "Live at Pompeii" .

 

In any case, haven't done mind altering psychedelics in decades, but listening to my present system, this after decades of building it to this level, probably most replicates those 'highs' from back in the day.

 

I'm also easily hypnotized, had some friends into Earhard Seminars Training back in the day, they'd bring home tapes, have to say they were mind altering to some extent. Also had friends into Wicca,  met some very powerful, charismatic people through them. Also knew people in the 'Children of God' movement. I can understand the lure of cults in that they can often induce ASC in certain susceptible people. Although I dabbled in the above I always kept my distance more an observer rather than a participant,  I've always liked to think of myself as something like Argus, the all seeing creature from Greek mythology. Maintaining a certain objectivity while at the same time participating can bring about it's own sense of mind alteration and wonder. As an aside, love 'Argus' release from Wishbone Ash.

Imaging and sound staging have always been critical for me in inducing ASC, the illusion of having real live flesh and blood performers in my room with present setup brings about this state without the need for any ingested substances. Not to say I don't like a bit of bourbon with my listening sessions these days, the Lions Mane sound intriguing.

 

 

Our only reference for timbre is acoustic instruments played without sound reinforcement. The recording process alters it as do the playback instruments/components. Also we have so many non acoustic instruments, we have no reference for timbre with this. If this true how can stress be caused by imperfect timbre.

 

Levels of ASC in any particular individual cannot be known by any of us. Many report very high levels of musical engagement with very ordinary equipment. It would seem logical to suggest those who seek and need highest quality audio components are more resistive to high levels of ASC. On the other hand, considering there are differing levels of ASC, perhaps those with the greatest needs equipment wise wish to have even higher levels of ASC than previously experienced. In this case audiophilia is an affliction in which, just like other addictive drugs,  tolerance may be reached which means even greater amounts/better equipment needed to maintain the high.

 

Now, the above contingent on what are the goals for any particular audiophile, perhaps the equipment itself brings about certain levels of ASC. No doubt humans can lust after material objects, think about how many humanize these objects, men often give their cars women's names. My neighbor has males names for my cars.

No doubt gross timbre inaccuracies would induce stress. I believe more marginal timbre inaccuracies aren't a major concern for most. How often do most of us listen to non amplified or non sound reinforced music? I presume most of us generally hear live music where the instruments are both amplified and sound reinforcement is being used. In general I much prefer my home system sound to live concerts, sound quality superior and I can control my environment.

 

 In speaking to environment I'd posit our listening room settings have a great influence on our ability to enter into ASC. By this I don't mean acoustic room products, rather the esthetics of the room, also time of day, I much more enjoy night time listening, my room completely blacked out, and I have various light shows I can enable to fit the mood. Complete quiet also best, the lower the ambient noise levels the better, 30db vs 50db is a very meaningful difference for hearing the lower level info and/or quiet passages, especially important for classical.

 

Speaking of acoustic control, I spent years analyzing how different room treatments affected the sound. As part of this I learned to visualize sound waves, from this I began to hear how sound waves excited the molecular structure of my listening space. Taking these visualization helped me to hear how my entire room (over 30' L), mostly the space behind listening position affected the sound. As an aside, my first visualization of molecular space came from LSD trips out in nature, what in all likelihood was pollen in the air lit by moonlight was perceived as something far more meaningful. With LSD one loses all perception of time, I recall starting trips at perhaps 7pm, the sun could be rising and I'd be sitting in one place the whole time, its like one single thought consumed me that entire time, I never recall any perception of repetition.

 

I like the reference to boredom, no doubt ASC cannot be accompanied by boredom. Repetition can easily induce boredom, two reasons why I like the robot picking the music, one is its mostly completely random, surprise displaces boredom, two I don't have the need to interrupt the 'flow', with me having to choose the music I have to consciously make the choice, this takes away from the 'flow.'

Obviously every single instrument whether amplified or not, even synths have an inherent timbre. I'd posit the timbre inaccuracies we hear in playback as compared to the original timbre as captured in the studio or live concert are relatively minor for causing stress vs other aspects of sound. I suspect tonal anomalies or imbalances are a much greater cause of listener stress, tonality is a gross measure, more easily heard than the relatively small timbre anomalies we are likely to encounter. On the other hand, I can think of at least one pretty persistent irritant for what I believe to be timbre issue, and that is massed violins, I've yet to experience a fully natural presentation/timbre via digital, vinyl reproduction sounds more like the real thing although digital has continually evolved here.

 

@mahgister I've long known of your intense experiments with room treatments, interesting diy projects, no doubt you've visualized sound waves. I too have experimented with multiples of off the shelf devices and/or just plain furnishings in listening room. In my experience virtually everything has some effect, 1st reflection points while the most obvious are not close to the end of it. With experimentation I've learned to be far less invasive with 1st reflection points and treat many  other reflection points throughout room. Since I don't really have wall behind listening position around 15' into 30'L room opening into a kitchen I got far more immersion into sound field using 6 Synergistic HRT on side walls behind listening position. Having a wall close behind listening position changes the whole equation. I also used multiple Schumann resonators in the past, can also be very effective if used correctly. To reiterate, maximizing sound staging, imaging is extremely important for my ability to easily enter higher levels of ASC, immersion into the sound field meaning stimuli emanating from behind listening position is key.

Yep, the idea that past experiences of ASC would influence us going into the future. This was always part of my intention when seeking ASC, per the band 'Doors', opening the doors of perception. Some have called this mind expansion, I can think of so many ways in which this serves me well to this day. When one is consistently mindful of the known unknowns they remain curious, and we all know curiosity is the mother of invention. When one is curious much more likely to follow their own path, this can serve you well in your audio pursuit. 

 

As per ASC and external substances, I've never listened to a high end system when under the influence of hallucinogens, just the live concerts.

 

@mahgister But on the other hand no piece of gear can replace acoustic control impact to gain natural timbre and sound spatial characteristics...

 

The equipment can greatly affect both timbre and spatial characteristics. Over many decades have been through much equipment, specifically amps, in order of use, class a/b solid state, class a SS, push pull tubes, SET tubes. SET tubes my final destination, this likely very much allied to their relatively high levels of 2nd order harmonic distortion, a pleasing, some say more natural timbre. I've also found spatial characteristics are much affected by equipment. I'd add loudspeakers make perhaps the largest impression on both timbre and sound staging. Roon acoustics are like the icing on the cake, they allow the full potential of the equipment to come shining through.

My goal with high end audio has always been to induce high levels of ASC without the need for other stimulants/mind altering additions. Perhaps this has something to do with my experiences with hallucinogens at live concerts in which visual stimuli far overwhelmed aural stimuli. I can't recall a single thing about the music or sound, all my memories wrapped up in the visual, specifically, sometimes the performers became the actual, physical instruments they were playing. Hallucinogens worked best for me out in nature, nature's vast visual stimuli was totally engrossing, again can't recall any aural stimuli. Best trips by far for me was in relatively quiet environments, nature best provided that.

 

As for creating new and/or better ASC experiences, perhaps that's the very thing that drives at least some audiophiles. We continually try to improve our systems in order to derive some greater connection with the music. In recent years I've been quite content with the performance of my system and  connection to the music. Every listening session results in total engagement with the musicians, the sense of living, breathing performers in the room doesn't take much if any effort. In retrospect I can recall all the years in which it took a fair amount of 'mind tricks' in order to reach  deep engagement levels, the result was stress which foreshortened listening sessions and formulations as to how I could improve my system. Every listening session these days is a unique experience directed by the Roon robot (random play mode) which chooses the next artist on play list. I'm being taken on a mind excursion trip in whichever direction the robot and artist choose to take me. I'm liking this vs me being the director, so I guess this relatively new ASC experience.

 

I'm at point where my system can provide a SUSTAINING ASC experience, while the memories or lessons learned from using various mind altering substances can last a lifetime, they can't provide a 'natural' or sustaining ASC experience, they are 'manufactured' experiences in the sense they physically alter our brain chemistry. While it is true all ASC experiences result in brain chemistry changes, better for emotions/feelings to change it vs various physical substances.

The issue is THC not a hallucinogen, if we are seeking altered states this not enough. Not against using various substances for system and music enjoyment, but I see the goal of high end audio to induce the altered state without the need for these substances, this what I mean by sustainable. I'd suggest medicinal/pharmaceutical substances not sustainable in that they can severely impact our physical and/or mental well being. I know this from first hand experience having gone through drug rehab, and I've know far too many casualties who never sought rehab/therapy. Using mind altering substances on a regular basis can be difficult, as they say moderation is the key.

Generally I'll listen to my favorite radio station all day at work, WCBN FM, Univ. Michigan student run station. So yesterday they played rasta man music for a couple hours, got me back in the old spirit of things! Made me think of the differences between THC and hallucinogens, THC can raise our awareness of certain things, this can help to create a spiritual experience, seeing Marley live in concert at a perfect size venue with fine acoustics while I was high certainly was one of those peak experiences. Had other peak experiences with THC, vast majority far more forgettable, once it becomes daily most of the magic lost. On the other hand you can never forget the hallucinogenic experiences, they alter the mind/brain in a way THC can never come close to. The one thing to be careful with when using hallucinogens is being attentive to state of mind just prior to tripping, no fear or anxiety, just an open mind as to what one is about to experience. I believe having good intentions when making the decision to use mind altering substances is paramount. I always thought back to Carlos Castaneda's, "The Teachings of Don Juan" as a very early compass for my mind altering journeys.

 

I also mentioned most desiring quiet during trips, I know someone mentioned the movie, "Altered States" in an earlier thread. Seems to me it could be a very anxiety provoking thing to be locked into an isolation tank, with no visual or aural reference/distraction there is only one's mind to absorb the mind, going to a dark place as in the movie could be very possible.

@bolong Part and parcel of the human condition. Is reality too much or not enough?