@mikelavigne Thanks for taking the question seriously and answering it in such detail.
To others denigrating the idea of changing one's state of mind is not about getting "wasted." That is an interpretation that says more about fear than anything else.
The idea is not about altering one's state because their system is already good enough. To see why not, simply read the OP again, perhaps more slowly this time.
The idea is about challenging ruts. As anyone who attends to their own experience knows, we often listen with preconceptions and biases which confine how and what we hear. One needs to sometimes loosen up or shake things up a bit so see things differently.
What I see in the accounts of systems that have improved over time, their owners did something to push their own limits. That could be listening to a friend's system, or new music, or even altering their mental state somehow. It's not "poisoning" their mental state, whatever the eff that means. (Puritan alert!)
|
|
@ianb52 Good point about the "paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun" I suppose my question is not whether critical listening should be done all the time but if an instance or two of listening done in these states might break one’s ruts and open up a new insight. That insight could be carried into a critical listening session without any altered state. We do this with books all the time -- read, immerse, get an insight, then carry it forward and apply it once the book is closed. You convey this scenario really well in your reminiscence about how tripping "produced musical experiences that I had never even conceived and permanently altered the way I hear things." It might also be the case that the "paradox" you mention could be sidestepped by micro-dosing. @daj "Show me a person with a fearful, negative attitude toward the use of mind altering substances and the exploration they make possible, and I will show you someone who is most likely locked into the consensual dream state of life as the character they learned to be. There is nothing beyond these confines for them. Bless their hearts." Zing! And then you quote William James! One of America’s greatest, most creative, most open-minded, geniuses. To read James is to expand consciousness itself. Well done! It was not my intention to create a referendum on drug use, casual or habitual. Obviously, for many on this forum, it’s a trigger. My OP asks a very specific question about audiophile listening and the fine-tuning of a system with critical listening supplemented -- or not -- with altered states. The fact that *this* question has been taken as a tee-up of a different question ("Are drugs good or not" or some other general question) is, um, a sociological result I wasn’t expecting. But noted, nonetheless! |
@millercarbon Lagavulin is close to the tops for me; 16 years and ready for love. I'm also a big Talisker fan. Laphroig is too smoky/peaty but those others march me up as close as I need.
|
More good stuff. @vinocour When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time. I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state. Agree. My OP is not necessarily asking, "Do you rely *totally* on enhancements to evaluate gear or decide on a purchase?" That seems like an easy thing to decline. The question is about prompting oneself to see all possible angles (at some point) for an evaluative judgement later on, in a (likely) a sober state of mind. @oregonpapa papa I tried pot once. It made me want to rape and kill. Interesting. Made me want to doodle and canoodle. Perhaps alert your local Sheriff about those underlying tendencies? @old_ears Is your "pleasure" from evaluating, or being one with the sound...mutually exclusive, both can be fulfilling. Give me both grasshopper! Agree. Evaluation can be a means to an end or an end in itself. Honestly, I do enjoy evaluating for its own sake and also as a tool to improve immersive listening. My OP is asking about whether the technologies of occasional psychological enhancement can improve evaluative listening done for the purpose of better immersive listening. @mastering92 If I’m listening to audio gear for the purpose of evaluating it, I am completely focused on objective performance. I don’t need coffee or anything else to concentrate. Right. The question isn't about the ability to concentrate. I think most here can do that, as it's something we learned in elementary school. This is about whether the deliveries of focus can be expanded and enriched by finding ways beyond existing prejudices and preconceptions. (This is how we gain an appreciation for things we either disregarded or formed a rash opinion about.) But this is probably just autobiographical, that is, about my own expectation that while I'm a pretty good listener, I'd be able to surpass my present abilities if I reconsider what I'm doing once in a while. I get the sense that you're way past me, because your statement indicates that you have become a master listener whose abilities needs nothing -- not even coffee -- as they have reached the zenith. If that is true, congratulations; you are a master sommelier of sound. |
Good points. @mastering92 To listen critically - We need to put our energy into the power of objective reasoning and honest observations.
Here’s where you and I may see things differently. I am in the field of philosophy. Every argument which is offered, and every counter-argument claims "objective reasoning." The issue becomes, what is selected as relevant to the objective argument? What is left out? What is emphasized? The history of thought (not just philosophy) is full of people who try to claim their argument is ultimate because it is objective. But that word, objective, is just stone soup. What else is in there? That’s where the interesting stuff happens. The word objective is not a trump card among people who know how to argue. @mikelavigne OTOH in the particular audiophile journey i am on, i am as interested in how some change makes me feel emotionally in a right brain context, as objectively what my left brain thinks it hears. am i being drawn into the music? is my body happy? This identifies the exact way in which objectivity hits the shoals, for me. Mike is right -- this is about mind-and-body, and since listening is also done with our body, the detachment necessary for rational objectivity is insufficient if not downright destructive of what some of us consider the experience of music. |
Objective reasoning can be thought of as thinking like a machine.
A machine... Designed by a human. With metrics set by humans and human science. With output defined by humans. With output interpreted by humans. The trail of the human serpent is over everything. Nothing is objective. It’s just that some results are easier to agree upon and are more easily repeated. What science accomplishes is intersubjective agreement that is based on *stipulated* standards -- which were invented and stipulated to accomplish a purpose. The kind of objectivity you’re representing here is hardly defended any longer. It relies on a correspondence to an independent reality which is, by definition, inaccessible. That kind of reality may have a place in religion, but not in science. P.S. Because any sound is only a part of an interactive circuit involving music-gear-ears-brain-interpretation, then the very division into subjective and objective is impossible. Even medical researchers (let alone philosophers) are suspicious of the idea. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/theres-no-such-thing-as-an-objective-view-of-something |
@mikelavigne Exactly. We know the scientific structure for salt, but not for salty. As Aristotle pointed out, not everything affords exactitude. |
@mastering92 Umm..yes we are humans. We didn’t land here on a UFO space ship.
….We can grow organs and clone living things. Think about that for a minute. It seems you are too deep into the ocean of your own ideas to comprehend much else...
This is insulting. I cannot take more time to educate you. I’ve been thinking and writing about objectivity, ethics, scientific method, and more for 25 years. I've explained these things to thousands of reasonably well-educated students, but I admit that some are insulated from new thinking. Objectivity teaches me that there are brick walls when it comes to learning. And to my own ability to conjure up the right phrases for abject density. Let’s agree to end this here; you can think I’m ignorant and I’ll do the same. |
@unreceivedogma Similarly, altered states are good for experiential activity, not for evaluative activity.
If you look back at my posts in this thread, you'll see that I'm not proposing altered states as the default for evaluative activity. They're proposed as being *among* the ways one might expand what is noticed in observation or as a prompt to new connections. Unless you're saying that the are never helpful for evaluative activity. If that's what you mean, why do you think that? |
@newton_john Very interesting set of reflections about ASC. Thanks!
Whatever others said, my OP was not about being wasted, per se. I am not interested in what state people are in to enjoy music. My post was about the intentional inducement of ASC to help broaden and diversify the kind of data we use to make analytical judgments about audio sound.
A crude analogy would be someone who is used to a certain meal that they eat every day. If that person tries adding a little salt, they alter their perception of what they’re eating and perhaps understand it in a new way. That can open the door to new interpretations or give clues about where changes might be beneficial.
|
I dont need pot or beer to forget the limitations of my low cost system. It work optimally and i enjoy it fully as the result of my creative acoustics experiments...
I'm very glad for you. If it works optimally and you enjoy it fully then I don't suppose it really has any limitations. That's wonderful! And low cost!
|
One issue for critical listening, e.g., when comparing components, is that an ASC might interfere with the short-term memory needed to recall what one has heard.
Good point. I'm talking about relatively small amounts. Have you heard the expression, "You're overthinking it"? I believe that an ASC might help shift of focus toward new foci for attention that are currently overshadowed by an overemphasis on something else. Sometimes I'll focus on instrument placement, and a friend will say, "try to zoom out and hear the grouping," or stuff like that. This is what an ASC can do – and note-taking helps with the memory piece.
Beers,Pot,thc,Mushrooms, will modify your interpretation of music perception , not the objective quality of sound perception. only acoustics can do this.
You are in direct contact with non-interpreted reality. You can hear sounds objectively and then interpret them. That's not how my brain/mind work. I guess we're built differently. Everything I hear is interpreted. The question (for me not you) is how to make sure my interpretations are not stuck in a rut.
I bet you didn’t think your thread would be coming back to life four years later.
There are a lot of things I thought were gone for good from four years ago. I have some hope for this thread, though.
|
"There’s life in that old post yet..." 👍😎🎶
So funny! LOL! And thanks for keeping it short and to a single post! Brevity is the soul of wit and wisdom, avsjerry!
|
@stuartk
I’m trying to imagine a chemically-induced state in which one’s awareness is both freed from habitual assumptions yet still capable of reliable perceptions/judgments and I'm not able to do so.
Having one drink or a little more could do it, or some concomitantly small dosage of something else.
Maybe we're different, but I don't shift dramatically from "reliable perceptions/judgements" to "unreliable" if the amount is carefully considered.
|
No you are wrong here.
Sigh. Wrong again. Ok, I give up.
Instead, a koan:
The words all flow,
Yet meaning hides in the prose,
Mind in tangled knot.
And a limerick:
There once was a poster online,
Whose temper was awfully inclined
To flare at a tweet,
Then stomp tiny feet,
And call his profundity divine.
|
@newton_john AI is getting remarkably good. At the very least, it is grammatical replies that have a beginning, middle, and an end. It may hallucinate facts sometimes, but at least I don't feel like I'm hallucinating while trying to read it. It doesn't make me want to throw up my hands and think, "WTF are you even saying?" No, it makes sense. Which is refreshing.
|
@stuartk
In other words, can one evaluate a system’s sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption?
The answer is no. I cannot evaluate my system stoned as a rock, or drunk and drunken. Why ? Because acoustics critical analysis is like thinking and seeing with his ears, i cannot when my mind is darken by the fumes...
So, I clarified that I do not mean ASC to the degree to where one cannot focus and become absorbed. If you've ever had a cup of coffee, you know that there are many degrees one can be "altered" within the general rubric clumsily captured by ASC or "altered states of consciousness."
So, I'll let those who want to pour out their (same, repeated) opinions have at it. I cannot explain it better or help those who wish to dilate on a misconstrued interpretation. Their need to talk is more emotional than rational, and there's nothing to do but let the slurry swirl.
|
@newton_john thanks for the book reference; my library has it and I’m going to take a look.
@stuartk I’m not talking about utilizing substances in precise doses, only trying small amounts to see if one’s perceptions alter and give them a new insight into how their system sounds. It’s not more complicated than that, but too many here have taken ASC and assumed that I mean becoming sh*t-faced. That’s not it at all. It’s about stirring things up a little bit and taking another look.
@sns "Our only reference for timbre is acoustic instruments played without sound reinforcement." Not sure I agree. I’ve heard Stratocasters played through amps, live; wouldn’t that be a timbre that could serve as a reinforcement? Indeed, any electrified instrument that is recorded via a mic would then be a reference for the later-amplified sound coming out of a stereo. But, perhaps, the change in timbre is just not as critical – perhaps that’s the point, namely that there would not be "gross timbre inaccuracies" which would induce stress.
Regarding LSD and the visualization of space, this is an interesting example insofar as it indicates another possibility for my suggestion. Not so much that one alters perception while they’re listening to audio, but that they take note of how acoustic space sounds at another time while under an ASC. Then, as you did, they can consider that angle of view later on, when they are listening to music. We gain new perspectives with ASC’s and if they can be somehow incorporated into our way of understanding things, they become resources to break out of routine judgments.
|
@sns I can think of at least one pretty persistent irritant for what I believe to be timbre issue, and that is massed violins
Glad you mentioned that. It has become my first reference point for judging a system's (and recording's) quality. So often, they are just a blur.
|
@12many By the way, I like your handle – clever!
Agree that what is heard gets incorporated.
I agree with others that music is an ASC. (I mean, what isn't an ASC given certain definitions? That's a rhetorical question, FWIW.)
The point of my question (which is not as fun as what others are bringing up, so it's all good) is how do we break out of "ruts" in the way we are presently analyzing our systems? So many people on the forum seem stuck about what to do next, and they look for advice about gear, etc. But one could change a thousand things, and so the problem comes back to how we break out of our larger perspective. An ASC had long ago is of little help, as it has already become routine in our present habit. A new ASC has the potential to shake up present habits, provide an analytical clue, and lead to experimentation with the system or room with greater potential.
|
Huh. I always thought THC was a mild hallucinogen.
"Cannabis has been historically classified as a hallucinogen. However, subjective cannabis effects do not typically include hallucinogen-like effects."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5908416/
|
@newton_john I've not had much chance. Skimming a bit, I'm very curious in the idea that listening to music while doing other things doesn't necessarily equate to superficial engagement. The notion of "multiply distributed attention" leading to involving experiences where music interacts with and mediates our perception of the environment is something I want to investigate.
|
