Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding).
What, in your experience, are the pluses and minuses of altering your state of mind for listening? This can include anything you've used to affect your everyday state of mind, from coffee, beer, scotch, tobacco, to much stronger — and psychoactive, dissociative — additives.
What do you gain by altering your consciousness in terms of what you notice, attend to, linger on, etc? What causes more details to emerge? What allows you to stick with a thread or, alternately, make new connections?
Or perhaps you like to keep all those things *out* of your listening; if that's you, please say a bit about why.
"Critical listening" as suggested by the OP as i understood it, can be related to our evaluation of the system/room sound or can be put aside by the use of beer and pot to simply enjoy music...
This critical passive listening can interfer and be an impediment to our enjoyment of music indeed...
But there is also an active listening, using acoustics concepts and parameters, which help us to reach musical ecstasy (with beer or without beer).
I dont need pot or beer to forget the limitations of my low cost system. It work optimally and i enjoy it fully as the result of my creative acoustics experiments...
Time to time i had used THC to increase my subjective experience of music, but this had no relation to my system sound. I used it 2 or 3 times a year listening Bach, Liszt,Bruckner and Philip Glass opera. the last time.
@mahgister....sounds like my ’reality’, whatever it is...not much on candles ’n such.....*G*
Buy a salt lamp for the color orange,it increase our perception of music by associating a light climax between day and light and make music "colors" best seen this way for me.. it is perhaps only self conditioning hypnosis...
Also i observed an effect on sound when near my gear but it is also perhaps only an aspect of my "tin foil hat" personality..
I dont need pot or beer to forget the limitations of my low cost system. It work optimally and i enjoy it fully as the result of my creative acoustics experiments...
I'm very glad for you. If it works optimally and you enjoy it fully then I don't suppose it really has any limitations. That's wonderful! And low cost!
It’s been many decades since I listened to music stoned and back then, I had neither the interest in this hobby nor the requisite $. The music did seem to be more vivid than when I listened without "enhancements", but I was not engaged in critical assessment mode at the time.
I did combine drugs with drawing and creative writing, back then, and what I typically found was that next day, the drawings and poems were not nearly as original or interesting as they’d seemed while under the influence.
I tend to regard thinking as generally an either/or proposition -- dominated by either left or right brain in a given moment. This may be erroneous. I’m not a scientist. I’m trying to imagine a chemically-induced state in which one’s awareness is both freed from habitual assumptions yet still capable of reliable perceptions/judgments and I'm not able to do so. Such a state would seem more easily accomplished via meditation. But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible; simply that my experience hasn’t extended in that direction.
I’m trying to imagine a chemically-induced state in which one’s awareness is both freed from habitual assumptions yet still capable of reliable perceptions/judgments and I'm not able to do so.
Having one drink or a little more could do it, or some concomitantly small dosage of something else.
Maybe we're different, but I don't shift dramatically from "reliable perceptions/judgements" to "unreliable" if the amount is carefully considered.
I dont need pot or beer to forget the limitations of my low cost system. It work optimally and i enjoy it fully as the result of my creative acoustics experiments...
I’m very glad for you. If it works optimally and you enjoy it fully then I don’t suppose it really has any limitations. That’s wonderful! And low cost!
No you are wrong here.
If we do not enjoy any given system, most of the times it is not so much because it is a bad system "per se" ,or because it is a too much low cost one.
The main reason why we enter "critical listening" mode , unable to enter in musical enjoyment, bothered by the sound, it is because a suddenly too much apparent defect break the necessary balance of acoustics factors and parameters.
Then your ironical supposition about the absence of limitations of my system is wrong....
My low cost system as most system under the top very costly High end has his many specifics set of limitations, but because of the optimization of all three working factors, mechanical,electrical and especially acoustical, the balance i had is near the optimal, then no limitation act suddenly as disruptor of the musical pleasure triggering an unwanted critical listening mode...
This is why acoustics gave us " altered musical consciousness" with Pot or without pot or beer...
I listen, therefore I am.
Fri tumbles into Sat again although the planet knows not.
Not listening to other than rain on a metal roof.....a pleasant gray noise, versus the version not so long ago still very apparent debris being hid by the green springs...
HO, as we've made our ways with the equip we have had, the senses sharp or dulled by practice made practical by the states we've been in.
Impractical perception is generally more fun. ;)
@hilde45....how about koans? I suck @ limericks.....😏🙄
What is the sound of a bell ringing in a cage with no air ?
A clue for the meditation:
A wave is not necessarily a perceived sound and a perceived sound is not a mere wave in the air. The vibrating sound source is the qualia we perceive as a meaningful information about the vibrating sound source state itself which is not only frequencies but a recognized vibrating physical qualia. We tap a fruit to know if it is ripe or not.
The words all flow,
Yet meaning hides in the prose,
Mind in tangled knot.
And a limerick:
There once was a poster online,
Whose temper was awfully inclined
To flare at a tweet,
Then stomp tiny feet,
And call his profundity divine.
Yes, you were wrong again...
Because you insinuated that i had claimed that my system was without defects nor limitations..
I explained why this is false...
Acoustics do not replace high end gear...
it only optimized piece of gear this is why the concept of acoustic balance matter over price...You cannot replace acoustics basics with more costly gear upgrade... Design of gear and acoustics are 2 different matter... It is common place fact...Suggesting that i claimed the opposite is "bad faith"...You cannot replace better designed gear improvement by acoustics improvement...
To save your face now you throw me sarcasms and innuendos as usual..
«Timbre is one of the psychophysical cues that has a great impact on affect perception, although, it has not been the subject of much cross-cultural research. Our aim is to investigate the influence of timbre on the perception of affect conveyed by Western and Chinese classical music using a cross-cultural approach...
The
results show that the important acoustic features for valence and energy arousal are similar, which are related mostly to spectral variation, the shape of the temporal envelope,and the dynamic range. The important acoustic features for tension arousal describe the shape of the spectral envelope, noisiness, and the shape of the temporal envelope. The explanation for the similarity of perceived affect ratings between instruments is the similar acoustic features that were caused by the physical characteristics of specific instruments and performing techniques.»
What is called in this article "tension arousal" perception is an "altered states" of perception of music in which we can reach a level of ectasy.
This is why "timbre" perception parameters in a system /room matter so much in audio and music.
But i can take a beer or a bit of pot time to time...
The goal with a good acoustics condition and a beer is to eliminate the unwanted "critical listenings" attitude when listening music to immerse ourselves in it...
An interesting deep scientific discovery about "timbre" meaning for music evaluation and perception :
«The mathematical rules for creating musical harmony may be more malleable than thought.
Western music theory traditionally holds that chords sound most pleasant when they contain notes separated by certain intervals (SN: 5/9/23). Namely, intervals where the notes’ frequencies have simple ratios — like 2:1 (an octave) or 3:2 (a fifth).
But new research reveals that people’s actual preferred harmonies depend on the timbre of the notes. Timbre is the distinct flavor of sound produced by specific instruments — the reason that the same note played at the same volume sounds different on the piano, guitar or gong.»
All this demonstrate how much acoustics perception of timbre determine the way we will lived through the musical performance a positive "altered states" or a negative "altered states" of experience. Critical listening instead of ecstasy.
I forgot to say to our "text sarcastic corrector" that this poem:
Instead, a koan:
The words all flow,
Yet meaning hides in the prose,
Mind in tangled knot.
This poem Is not a Koan, because a koan in zen practice is always a "non sensical question" given by the master to the pupil to remove the mind from his habitual limits or ratio...
Our friend here has written a "hai-ku", a traditional 3 lines poem determined by a syllabes count, which he conflated with a koan in his hurry to mock my post about acoustics and answer my koan by a bad poetry of his own...
But what i wrote myself above is an acoustic Koan :
What is the sound of a bell ringing in a cage with no air ?
A koan is often a question impossible to answer...
The bad haiku written above is only a sarcasm directed to me...
I just asked Generative AI for more information on Musical Absorption. This is what it came up with.
Musical absorption refers to a state of heightened attention and altered consciousness where individuals become deeply immersed in music, experiencing a sense of being moved and transformed. This state can involve both intense focus and a sense of detachment from external reality.
Here’s a more detailed look:
Key Characteristics of Musical Absorption: Intense Focus:
Listeners become intensely focused on the music, often to the exclusion of other stimuli.
Sense of Alteration:
There’s a subjective experience of being affected or changed by the music, potentially leading to emotional responses like awe, connectedness, or feeling moved.
Loss of Self-Consciousness:
Some individuals report a temporary loss of self-consciousness or a sense of being "lost in the music," according to research on the topic.
Time Distortion:
The perception of time can be altered, with minutes feeling like seconds or vice versa.
Positive Transformation:
Many individuals report experiencing a sense of positive transformation or a feeling of being moved by the music.
How it relates to altered states of consciousness: Not a single state:
Musical absorption can encompass a range of experiences, from focused listening to more intense states where self-awareness is diminished.
Connection to neural entrainment:
Some studies suggest that the rhythmic nature of music can influence brainwave activity, potentially leading to altered states.
Distinct from mind-wandering:
Musical absorption is distinct from mind-wandering, where attention drifts away from the task at hand.
Potential for therapeutic applications:
Understanding the effects of musical absorption could lead to new therapeutic approaches for managing stress, anxiety, and other conditions.
In essence, musical absorption is a fascinating phenomenon where music can profoundly alter an individual’s state of consciousness, creating a unique blend of heightened attention, emotional response, and a sense of being transported to another realm.
I am thinking that musical absorption is better description of what we audiophiles do than critical listening.
@newton_john AI is getting remarkably good. At the very least, it is grammatical replies that have a beginning, middle, and an end. It may hallucinate facts sometimes, but at least I don't feel like I'm hallucinating while trying to read it. It doesn't make me want to throw up my hands and think, "WTF are you even saying?" No, it makes sense. Which is refreshing.
I am thinking that musical absorption is better description of what we audiophiles do than critical listening.
Music absorption or immersion cannot coexist with a state of acoustic stress or dissatisfaction...
This is why to be put in an altered states of joy listening music Timbre perception must be optimal because it help a lot to make the union of the listener with the sound and then with the musical content affecting the body ONE experience.
Then if we do not lose our tendency to "critical listening" we cannot enter into the altered states without help (pot,beer, and friends)
It is why owning a system/room touching the minimal acoustical threshold of satisfaction matter a lot... Acoustics, it is my opinion, matter more here than the gear price...
Letting the cat out of Schrödinger's and replaced with an intensely chocolate heart attack major slice of cake came to this knotty coil last night. Tempting, but not wanting to get into the 'having v. potential of consumption'....
All one gets is munchies...
Music absorption or immersion cannot coexist with a state of acoustic stress or dissatisfaction...
I can’t argue with this but I’m confused about how "absorption" relates to "altered states as related to what @hilde45 stated at the beginning of the thread:
Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding).
In other words, can one evaluate a system's sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption?
Musical absorption is being in altered states of consciousness. As I posted above in the words of AI.
"In essence, musical absorption is a fascinating phenomenon where music can profoundly alter an individual’s state of consciousness, creating a unique blend of heightened attention, emotional response, and a sense of being transported to another realm. "
I keep it simple... after dinner and after my tubes have warmed up for an hour or so, I will indulge in a shot of good vodka, gin or bourbon. Then I will warm up the vaporizer and take about 3-4 hits of cannabis... it's been my routine for 50+ years.
After around one hour of listening, enjoying the music, letting it take me places deep in my heart and soul, I turn it down and begin using that inspiration to play my guitar. I will play for about an hour and will go back to listening to my music collection again for around 15 minutes. After that, I shut everything down and take my dog out for a walk on the trails.
At 73 years old, my *boring* daily routine is actually very fulfilling. ;-)
@hilde45 specifically connects altered states with evaluation of sonics, rather than "relaxation". Your characterization of absorption would seem to suggest these are incompatible. This is what I don’t understand.
I certainly can't fully give myself up to the music while simultaneously engaging in critical analysis. Perhaps others can.
Music absorption or immersion cannot coexist with a state of acoustic stress or dissatisfaction...
I can’t argue with this but I’m confused about how "absorption" relates to "altered states as related to what @hilde45 stated at the beginning of the thread:
Ok, this is not a question about relaxing, but about listening to evaluate how the system (or a piece of gear is sounding).
In other words, can one evaluate a system’s sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption?
First: all is a question here about "attention" as in a focus centered state (details), or in a surrounding encompassing mode(whole) and in a relaxed moving balance state between these 2 polarities (whole and detail).
Second : a critical listening of sound can suddenly appear because out of the perfect optimal balance between modes of attention, something stress our sense and perception of the optimal relation between sound as acoustic experience and music as pure meaning; a disturbed attention focus suddenly critically on sound, forgetting musical meaning (the meaning of Bruckner last 5th symphony for example as a perfect image of near death we can see with our mind eyes if something dont disturb our concentration of attention)
Third: Ecstasy, an altered state of mind as meaning perception through an optimal balance between sound manifestation of the music content cannot exist in a critical mode of attention focussing unilaterally on some negative acoustic aspect of the sound vehicle.
Four: this is why i said that an optimal acoustic control of the system /room/ears help us to reach an altered state of perception through this optimal balance where we can forget at the ultimate limit everything save pure meanings expressed as the unity of sound and music as ONE meaning...
a remark : Attention can be "divided" or can work in two modes simultaneously, only in the "state of flow" when consciousness is relaxed and work out of any stress.
Then yes i can listen critically in an altered state at the express condition to be out of any kind of stress, acoustic stress or any other...
If not i enter in state where i lose the "flow state" of meaningful perception...
Each perception can be a creative act, a stress, or a boring process by habit, or a loss of control in a way or another with some substances...
In a simpler way : if the system/room is optimal for our ears/brain we enter in an altered state, a musical ecstasy..
If not, we need a beer to forget our imperfect acoustic experience...Or we need another acoustics experiment around an acoustic concept to improve the system/room...
If i am happy with my system it is already an altered uncritical state of satisfaction (in spite of my consciousness of my gear limitation because the system work optimally)
and to this question :
In other words, can one evaluate a system's sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption?
The answer is no. I cannot evaluate my system stoned as a rock, or drunk and drunken. Why ? Because acoustics critical analysis is like thinking and seeing with his ears, i cannot when my mind is darken by the fumes...
In other words, can one evaluate a system’s sonics while in an altered state that is not absorption?
The answer is no. I cannot evaluate my system stoned as a rock, or drunk and drunken. Why ? Because acoustics critical analysis is like thinking and seeing with his ears, i cannot when my mind is darken by the fumes...
So, I clarified that I do not mean ASC to the degree to where one cannot focus and become absorbed. If you've ever had a cup of coffee, you know that there are many degrees one can be "altered" within the general rubric clumsily captured by ASC or "altered states of consciousness."
So, I'll let those who want to pour out their (same, repeated) opinions have at it. I cannot explain it better or help those who wish to dilate on a misconstrued interpretation. Their need to talk is more emotional than rational, and there's nothing to do but let the slurry swirl.
Even just listening to music for some people is sufficient to induce altered states of consciousness. No stimulants are needed.
This is well documented in the scientific literature. Here is just one example of a book on the subject - Herbert, R. (2011). Everyday Music Listening: Absorption, Dissociation and Trancing. Aldershot, Ashgate.
"Abstract
In what ways does listening to music shape everyday perception? Is music particularly effective in promoting shifts in consciousness? Is there any difference perceptually between contemplating one's surroundings and experiencing a work of art? Everyday Music Listening is the first book to focus in depth on the detailed nature of music listening episodes as lived mental experiences. Ruth Herbert uses new empirical data to explore the psychological processes involved in everyday music listening scenarios, charting interactions between music, perceiver and environment in a diverse range of real-world contexts. Findings are integrated with insights from a broad range of literature, including consciousness studies and research into altered states of consciousness, as well as ideas from ethology and evolutionary psychology suggesting that a psychobiological capacity for trancing is linked to the origins of making and receiving of art. The term 'trance' is not generally associated with music listening outside ethnomusicological studies of strong experiences, yet 'hypnotic-like' involvements in daily life have long been recognized by hypnotherapy researchers. The author argues that multiply distributed attention - prevalent in much contemporary listening-does not necessarily indicate superficial engagement. Music emerges as a particularly effective mediator of experience. Absorption and dissociation, as manifestations of trancing, are self-regulatory processes, often operating at the level of unconscious awareness, that support an individual perception of psychological health. This fascinating study brings together research and theory from a wide range of fields to provide a new framework for understanding the phenomenology of music listening in a way that will appeal to both specialist academic audiences and a broad general readership."
I guess what it boils down to is simply the fact that I'm not experienced in utilizing substances in precise doses to achieve what you describe; hence my difficulty grasping your meaning.
I don't know to whom you were referring in terms of a "need to talk" that is "more emotional than rational". My frames of reference for examining awareness tend to be meditation and art-making, rather than utilization of substances, although, decades ago, like many of my peers, I did my share of experimentation with chemically-alteted states
I will go further, if listening music is not already an altered state of consciousness for you, you have a big problem...It is a kind of deafness which also is in the neurological litterature...
Even speech sound and musicality can induce an altered state of consciousness( hypnosis or chorus singing etc )
Even just listening to music for some people is sufficient to induce altered states of consciousness. No stimulants are needed.
Thanks for this interesting article .
This is well documented in the scientific literature. Here is just one example of a book on the subject - Herbert, R. (2011). Everyday Music Listening: Absorption, Dissociation and Trancing. Aldershot, Ashgate.
Our only reference for timbre is acoustic instruments played without sound reinforcement. The recording process alters it as do the playback instruments/components. Also we have so many non acoustic instruments, we have no reference for timbre with this. If this true how can stress be caused by imperfect timbre.
Levels of ASC in any particular individual cannot be known by any of us. Many report very high levels of musical engagement with very ordinary equipment. It would seem logical to suggest those who seek and need highest quality audio components are more resistive to high levels of ASC. On the other hand, considering there are differing levels of ASC, perhaps those with the greatest needs equipment wise wish to have even higher levels of ASC than previously experienced. In this case audiophilia is an affliction in which, just like other addictive drugs, tolerance may be reached which means even greater amounts/better equipment needed to maintain the high.
Now, the above contingent on what are the goals for any particular audiophile, perhaps the equipment itself brings about certain levels of ASC. No doubt humans can lust after material objects, think about how many humanize these objects, men often give their cars women's names. My neighbor has males names for my cars.
In this case audiophilia is an affliction in which, just like other addictive drugs, tolerance may be reached which means even greater amounts/better equipment needed to maintain the high.
Now, the above contingent on what are the goals for any particular audiophile, perhaps the equipment itself brings about certain levels of ASC. No doubt humans can lust after material objects, think about how many humanize these objects, men often give their cars women’s names. My neighbor has males names for my cars.
It is not the gear pieces who gave me ASC.
It was music rendition translated in an acoustically relatively correct manner...
"timbre" is not only the sound corresponding to a know non electrically amplified instrument, even if in many case it is for sure. It is more complex.
Timbre inform us about the vibrating sound source state, be it a MooG synthetiser or a Yoruba drum...
Timbre is also not only a tonal color microdynamics varying in space but it is through the deformation or distortion of information caused by any stereo listening a dynamical "volume" in space which also create an ASC by his mere existance not as a mere localized noise in Nature but as an artificial "sphere" of artful meaning in our room if all is acoustically under control.
Acoustics parameters also not only the music content can create a strong ASC especially their convergence.
Consumers in a race to upgrade are not in an ASC but are perturbed by the boredom caused by their lack of acoustic control over their experience of music from which they evade by purchasing easy "solutions"...
"Each perception can be a creative act" ... I’m going to have to muse on that one!
Perception may be a robotic act of recognition by the "robotic ego" as in recognizing a known store on a known road...
Perception can be too an act of creative imagination who use apparent randomness to extract a known or new pattern...
Do you remember your first book with figures to put colors on but only after using the numbers associated to a point to form a figure ? Do you remember your amazement to see order born from apparent chaos because of a hidden road map linking all points with numbers?
I remember it as if it was yesterday...
All our perceptions are most of the times a mix of the robotic ego actions and of the creative imagination...
We dont perceive "things" which we had not created or participated to in some way, but we can recognize also known pattern as if in a sleepwalking state with very low creativity...Each perception may be a door to ecstasy but life will be unlivable if we were stuck on a trip...
Musical perception and acoustical perception may be such acts of imaginative creative perception...
People with low understanding of the working mind can call them illusion, placebos, hallucinations, it is not even wrong... But truth ask for more study and more involvement in our own thinking perception than accusing our perceptions of lies...
We think also with our senses... A blind can think and recreate with imagination the world pattern and densities with echo-localization...
i takes acoustics as seriously meaningful as music...The two activities imply ASC... A flow state of creativity like in any art... Listening is an art which create meanings...
No doubt gross timbre inaccuracies would induce stress. I believe more marginal timbre inaccuracies aren't a major concern for most. How often do most of us listen to non amplified or non sound reinforced music? I presume most of us generally hear live music where the instruments are both amplified and sound reinforcement is being used. In general I much prefer my home system sound to live concerts, sound quality superior and I can control my environment.
In speaking to environment I'd posit our listening room settings have a great influence on our ability to enter into ASC. By this I don't mean acoustic room products, rather the esthetics of the room, also time of day, I much more enjoy night time listening, my room completely blacked out, and I have various light shows I can enable to fit the mood. Complete quiet also best, the lower the ambient noise levels the better, 30db vs 50db is a very meaningful difference for hearing the lower level info and/or quiet passages, especially important for classical.
Speaking of acoustic control, I spent years analyzing how different room treatments affected the sound. As part of this I learned to visualize sound waves, from this I began to hear how sound waves excited the molecular structure of my listening space. Taking these visualization helped me to hear how my entire room (over 30' L), mostly the space behind listening position affected the sound. As an aside, my first visualization of molecular space came from LSD trips out in nature, what in all likelihood was pollen in the air lit by moonlight was perceived as something far more meaningful. With LSD one loses all perception of time, I recall starting trips at perhaps 7pm, the sun could be rising and I'd be sitting in one place the whole time, its like one single thought consumed me that entire time, I never recall any perception of repetition.
I like the reference to boredom, no doubt ASC cannot be accompanied by boredom. Repetition can easily induce boredom, two reasons why I like the robot picking the music, one is its mostly completely random, surprise displaces boredom, two I don't have the need to interrupt the 'flow', with me having to choose the music I have to consciously make the choice, this takes away from the 'flow.'
I appreciated very much your posts and experience...
I am retired and i did a set of intense experiments in acoustic 7 day /7 for 2 years... I tuned 100 Helmholtz resonators and learned about the importance of their localization in the room and the way i must used them to modify the pressures zones of the room to my liking...
At the end the soundfield was like surrounding me and each tone was a volume in space, in an opera i could see the singer singing and walking in all my room near or far from me.
i adjusted mechanically my resonators of various size from a straw to 8 feet with big volume because like you i learned how to feel the sound wave zone of pressure and the comb filtering induced by the geometry of my room and his size.
I l;earned how to localize the many devices i used, not only resonators, but a balance between diffusion/absorbtion/reflective panels (homemade) and devices.
it was a trip because each evening the music became more and more alive, and with a process of trials and errors i reach an optimal level...
i am pretty sure you understand me...
Thanks for your interesting testimony...
No doubt gross timbre inaccuracies would induce stress. I believe more marginal timbre inaccuracies aren’t a major concern for most. How often do most of us listen to non amplified or non sound reinforced music? I presume most of us generally hear live music where the instruments are both amplified and sound reinforcement is being used. In general I much prefer my home system sound to live concerts, sound quality superior and I can control my environment.
In speaking to environment I’d posit our listening room settings have a great influence on our ability to enter into ASC. By this I don’t mean acoustic room products, rather the esthetics of the room, also time of day, I much more enjoy night time listening, my room completely blacked out, and I have various light shows I can enable to fit the mood. Complete quiet also best, the lower the ambient noise levels the better, 30db vs 50db is a very meaningful difference for hearing the lower level info and/or quiet passages, especially important for classical.
Speaking of acoustic control, I spent years analyzing how different room treatments affected the sound. As part of this I learned to visualize sound waves, from this I began to hear how sound waves excited the molecular structure of my listening space. Taking these visualization helped me to hear how my entire room (over 30’ L), mostly the space behind listening position affected the sound. As an aside, my first visualization of molecular space came from LSD trips out in nature, what in all likelihood was pollen in the air lit by moonlight was perceived as something far more meaningful. With LSD one loses all perception of time, I recall starting trips at perhaps 7pm, the sun could be rising and I’d be sitting in one place the whole time, its like one single thought consumed me that entire time, I never recall any perception of repetition.
I like the reference to boredom, no doubt ASC cannot be accompanied by boredom. Repetition can easily induce boredom, two reasons why I like the robot picking the music, one is its mostly completely random, surprise displaces boredom, two I don’t have the need to interrupt the ’flow’, with me having to choose the music I have to consciously make the choice, this takes away from the ’flow.’
@newton_john thanks for the book reference; my library has it and I’m going to take a look.
@stuartk I’m not talking about utilizing substances in precise doses, only trying small amounts to see if one’s perceptions alter and give them a new insight into how their system sounds. It’s not more complicated than that, but too many here have taken ASC and assumed that I mean becoming sh*t-faced. That’s not it at all. It’s about stirring things up a little bit and taking another look.
@sns "Our only reference for timbre is acoustic instruments played without sound reinforcement." Not sure I agree. I’ve heard Stratocasters played through amps, live; wouldn’t that be a timbre that could serve as a reinforcement? Indeed, any electrified instrument that is recorded via a mic would then be a reference for the later-amplified sound coming out of a stereo. But, perhaps, the change in timbre is just not as critical – perhaps that’s the point, namely that there would not be "gross timbre inaccuracies" which would induce stress.
Regarding LSD and the visualization of space, this is an interesting example insofar as it indicates another possibility for my suggestion. Not so much that one alters perception while they’re listening to audio, but that they take note of how acoustic space sounds at another time while under an ASC. Then, as you did, they can consider that angle of view later on, when they are listening to music. We gain new perspectives with ASC’s and if they can be somehow incorporated into our way of understanding things, they become resources to break out of routine judgments.
One of the most impactful and deep effect of THC in concentrated form on me the few times i tried it listening music, was not so much on my acoustic perception , which seems increased, but on the visual perception of the musical content meaning not as merely purely musical and auditory but as fractals and as a movie given to be seen...
Even without THC i "see" music way more than i am able to "hear" it, because i am not a musician anyway and not musically educated as a player like stuartk, i interpreted naturally music as a visual abstract story... think about fractals and metamorphosis of forms..
In some case , Bruckner 5 th symphony for example, i see a continuous story about man death and the afterlife...the vast geometry of the last mvt tell the story taking one by one all the thema of the first three movement recapitulating them, the first time i heard it i was strucked by a revelation, the final very long fugue is almost vision..
I will add that music is naturally, never mind acoustic and audio, an altered states of consciousness and the most universally used.
Speech is a musical gesture socially and individually synchronized with Nature... Each perception may become creative and a dual survival strategies of isolation from Nature (society) and also participation to Nature on a higher level than immediate by creativity.
Obviously every single instrument whether amplified or not, even synths have an inherent timbre. I'd posit the timbre inaccuracies we hear in playback as compared to the original timbre as captured in the studio or live concert are relatively minor for causing stress vs other aspects of sound. I suspect tonal anomalies or imbalances are a much greater cause of listener stress, tonality is a gross measure, more easily heard than the relatively small timbre anomalies we are likely to encounter. On the other hand, I can think of at least one pretty persistent irritant for what I believe to be timbre issue, and that is massed violins, I've yet to experience a fully natural presentation/timbre via digital, vinyl reproduction sounds more like the real thing although digital has continually evolved here.
@mahgisterI've long known of your intense experiments with room treatments, interesting diy projects, no doubt you've visualized sound waves. I too have experimented with multiples of off the shelf devices and/or just plain furnishings in listening room. In my experience virtually everything has some effect, 1st reflection points while the most obvious are not close to the end of it. With experimentation I've learned to be far less invasive with 1st reflection points and treat many other reflection points throughout room. Since I don't really have wall behind listening position around 15' into 30'L room opening into a kitchen I got far more immersion into sound field using 6 Synergistic HRT on side walls behind listening position. Having a wall close behind listening position changes the whole equation. I also used multiple Schumann resonators in the past, can also be very effective if used correctly. To reiterate, maximizing sound staging, imaging is extremely important for my ability to easily enter higher levels of ASC, immersion into the sound field meaning stimuli emanating from behind listening position is key.
I knew my acoustical optimization of my AKG K340 hibryd was done well when i cranked up the highs with tone controls and equalization because the violin sound was enebriating like an angelic silk thread...
If a system dont gave enough bass or beautiful highs and medium as natureal as possible the timbre of instrument, non amplified as amplified is distorted...
it is because of this acoustical stress that often people pick their gear piece upgrade to compensate, or some albums in spite of others less easy and natural to listen to...
The gear pieces design quality and synergy cannot be replaced but only compensated by acoustics controls, mechanical one mainly in my case and also equalization and tone control.
But on the other hand no piece of gear can replace acoustic control impact to gain natural timbre and sound spatial characteristics...
On the other hand, I can think of at least one pretty persistent irritant for what I believe to be timbre issue, and that is massed violins, I’ve yet to experience a fully natural presentation/timbre via digital, vinyl reproduction sounds more like the real thing although digital has continually evolved here.
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