I have a number of amplifiers: Luxman C900U, Bryston 4BSST2, Audio Research VSI 60 Integrated, NAD C298 and some other less noteworthy units. As I swap them in and out of my main system, I've come to the conclusion my very modest NAD C298 is about all I really need. Granted if I had extremely hard to drive speakers, I might be better with the Bryston or Luxman, but driving my Harbeth 40.2 speakers, the NAD is just fine.
I thought a while ago that class D would quickly overtake amplifier design type mainly due to profit margin which I think would be much greater than A/B and tube. I'm not saying the other design styles would go away, just that D would be the most common style.
Clearly my prediction is not panning out, at least in the mid and high-end audio world and I'm wondering why? It seems companies such as Bryston, Luxman, McIntosh, Hegel and so many others are sticking by A/B. I'm no "golden ears" guy, but is the perceived sound issue(weather real or imaginary) still holding D back? Maybe my assumption of profit margin is not correct? Maybe the amplifier manufacturers are experimenting with D, but keeping tight lipped until release? Perhaps brand loyalists don't want change similar to what happened with "new coke". What else am I missing?
I am someone who said my PeachTree GAN1 (has to be modded) was as good as about $30K of gear.
I am also someone who said my gear is end game and threw out all my shipping boxes, except the amp, in-case of repairs. My other gear is a short driving distance for potential repairs at the manufacturers. My shipping boxes cleanup photos is in the Virtual Systems section.
I am a streamer short so my GAN1 has been idle for a few months but I get a used Sonore OpticalRendu hand delivered from my visiting parents in 2 weeks ($700). That goes on the GAN1 and it will be a headphone amp. It will be a killer system (semi-portable within my home).
Just listening to music now and not searching anymore for gear.
What? A tube manufacturer and dealer comes on to a thread about "What's the FUTURE of class D".....and puts down ALL class d amps without even mentioning what he has heard and specific A/B tests. Then he tells us all the cool stuff he has and then invites us to come and listen. He might as well pay for an ad on the side of the thread. His post has NOTHING to do with the thread and adds nothing to what it is being talked about. Just an ad. I have nothing against advertising......but to come on here with clearly an intent to sell and add nothing? Where is the LOVE? Do you really care about the future of class D? Obviously not. Do you care about people who like class D.....obviously not. Do you care about making money? Obviously.
Can we add to the knowledge and love on the planet? Or do we just want what we want? I love Peter and everyone. AND, I call people on their behavior......we all should. If not, then the world would be a mess. We are each others brother AND each others parents....that is right. I am your daddy.....and you are mine. If we parent each other with love (only calling the actions bad and not the person)....then we all grow. No one is bad.....we all forget how beautiful and connected we are and act selfishly....time to time. Forgive and move on. Hopefully we don't repeat the "bad" behavior.
Sunday.....full of the light of God. Celebrate this and every moment.
What? A tube manufacturer and dealer comes on to a thread about "What’s the FUTURE of class D".....and puts down ALL class d amps without even mentioning what he has heard and specific A/B tests. Then he tells us all the cool stuff he has and then invites us to come and listen. He might as well pay for an ad on the side of the thread. His post has NOTHING to do with the thread and adds nothing to what it is being talked about. Just an ad. I have nothing against advertising......but to come on here with clearly an intent to sell and add nothing? Where is the LOVE? Do you really care about the future of class D? Obviously not. Do you care about people who like class D.....obviously not. Do you care about making money? Obviously.
1 page before that, another tube manufacturer who rose to fame selling decent tube gear for the past few decades has gotten into class D recently/apparently. Now, he wants to peddle it, make waves with it and thinks everyone would drop the sweet things they’ve got and get on his Class D bandwagon.
Most threads on this forum are steered by dudes with financial interests, typically a) manufacturers b) dealers incognito and c) their incognito/paid pied pipers, i.e. the ones who pretend to be genuine flipping customers jawdropped/blissed out by some product apparently. Everyone is required to know his bliss now apparently!! and he shall not rest until then!!! (whoop di doo). It isn’t about music or genuine end-users helping others.
If these guys are so desperate to grow their market share, beat down their competitors, boost profits, etc they should quit yapping with the same old sticks in the mud around here (who’ve been around the block and rarely change their conclusions about anything). If they were smart, they would go peddle on reddit or other AV forums. Go and grab some younger guys into general AV, computing, gaming, etc sitting around with significant chunks of cash. These are the type of guys who love music, but, sit around with awful sounding lifestyle audio gear (Bose, Sonos, soundbars, whatever). They simply don’t know any better. There is a big market share out there....and these guys could send their pied pipers to those forums for a bit so it isn’t the same ol’ crap over and over all day long around here. It doesn’t take more than half a wit to see all through this crap.
I dont think attacking people good faith is a good idea...
And atmasphere is certainly not a "peddler" here...
I say that and i am not his customer and will not be probably because so much i want to try my wallet will say no and anyway i am happy totally with my minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold ...
I say it because atmasphere help people with very wise and knowleadgeable posts i like much to read attentively and he dont need to sell anything here to make a living ... He is an engineer not a seller...And i am a grown up perfectly able to detect back thoughts and bad faith ...
And the same is valid for any guest new people here... We all have our opinions and are free to express it, customers or even sellers or engineer, i hate censorship and ban appeal arbitrarily proposed by ego motivation ...
And the lost of some knowledgeable members is too much , better to loose some less knowleadgeable others as myself or anyone else ...😁
Sorry if i offend some...
No ad hominem attack this must be a rule... Arguments only matter for the discussion...
If I ever desire more power or shopping for amps, will definitely consider them.
I may buy his MP-3 tube pre when i make up my mind about dealing with tubes again. It lseems like a nice piece in the price range of what i’m willing to pay for w.r.t tube preamps (to try pairing with my Technics SU-R1000 and flavor it up a bit)...
(Not interested in the greatness of Class D-iddly that has apparently put every Class A and AB under 100k in the dust these days!!)
If he can beat my Class triple D SU-R1000 one day on innovative engg (umpteenth level out the wazoo), i ’ll give it a listen....But, when i just look at his D with the chassis open, it ain’t looking like much to me. May the GAN flow like the Niagara however and make y’all blissful.
GAN miracle vs Technics, it just ain’t adding up on what you’re getting for the price! Funny enough, even that ~10k honestly priced engineering extravaganza Technics gets hammered by a whole lot of simpler Class A designs and no Class D-iddly under 100k i know of got crack engineered as good as the Technics (to nullify the cons of Class D-iddly).
Class A vs the rest - A interesting discussion by the grand Schiit Lords at Schiit Audio...
when i just look at his D with the chassis open, it ain’t looking like much to me.
Class D, done properly, is never going to look like much. Its very different from a tube amp in that regard!! The biggest issue class D has to contend with is noise generation; to that end the module has to be as small as possible to minimize parasitics caused by stray inductance (and at the frequencies involved, a lead of a part easily causes problems...). Because we are using GaNFETs, which don't require large heatsinks, the heatsinks (which are machined to 1 mil tolerances) are beneath the module and serve also as its mounting. So ya, not looking like much 😉
This is now just turned into another thread on Class D.....rather than what the future of it is. The Atma-sphere amp may be the best $5400 class D amp you can buy....or maybe not. The review has nothing to do with that. He compares (BY MEMORY) to an older tube Atma-sphere that he reviewed some time ago. What the heck does that have to do with anything? Where is his very precise review of these new mono blocks against all the LATEST class D or otherwise,,,,,done directly in his listening room, RIGHT NOW. NOT there....not there at all. How does the Atmas-sphere compare to a Benchmark amp, to a VTV high powered Purifi or Orhard with all my mods, or to the AGD amps or to Pass amps or to super tube amps in that price range, etc.? How are we to know anything about how it really is and compares with anything already available? All reviews need to be against a known reference in the same system at the same time or it is totally meaningless. The reviewer does not even mention any other amps nor the amps that he currently owns. This review is typical of reviews these days.....completely meaningless. It is if Ralph himself wrote the review.....it is simply ad copy. I am not saything that is what happened....just that "WHERE IS THE BEEF?"...This review is spam....he he. High end audio has NO REFERENCE......there is no agreed upon anything. Nothing like car hot rodding.....you can simply measure car performance on the drag strip. There is no drag strip in audio.....It is every man for himself.....beating on his chest that he knows something. Pretty silly, really. Here I am beating on mine....he he.
What if some magazine got 10 of the reputed best amps all around $5000 and compared them all in several systems over several months and gave you their TOTALLY honest opinion about them......This would never happend as the magazines are all about money. In fact, Stereophile has banned me from making comments on line after reviews because I would come in and describe how the product just reviewed could be made better....not as a put down.....just as information for the betterment of sound. They don't want the manufacturer to be shown that. They want the manufacturer happy, so they keep paying for ads. Stereophile makes no money on subscriptions....its all about the ads. Sad, but true. This is why you have to listen yourself and make your own mind up. Stop being so outer directed.....YOU KNOW what the truth is. But, you have to seek it out for yourself. Magazines will not give you truth....for the most part they are ad copy. A lot of reviewers do not want to compare to older or different things because they are not getting paid much or very little so they want to keep all avenues open to everyone in case they want to buy something from a manufacturer later on at half price (which is what reviewers usually pay). Audio is a game.....played by people who are enthusiastic about audio....BUT, are also commited to their own DESIRES (money and saving money and prestige).
Love does exist.....but it is not generally shown in audio reviews.
I believe the future of class D is digital amps like the Levinson (Mark Daniel) and Peachtree GaN1, the Technics amps, the Lyngdorf amps, etc. And bi and tri amping with digital amps is what we will see more and more....for that is the ultimate.
I just looked inside the Technics biggy and I see some things I could do to make it sound noticeably better......not going to do it. But, there is way more to be gotten than what is avaiable stock now. I could mod the Atma-sphere amps to sound way better too......You will see....er hear....as time goes on. Again.....as Karen sang "We have only just begun". Audio keeps getting better and love grows and grows......Life is great!
As has been mentioned in the many responses; execution is everything. Whether you agree with this notion or not, the proof is in the hearing. Listening to the latest technologically advanced amplifiers from Mola Mola (the new Perca stereo amp or Kula integrated amp) and you begin to dispel concerns over amplifier output class. They are transparent, 3D, dynamic, and oh so musical.
I just turned 70 and have vowed never to by audio w equipment I can’t easily lift. I can say that because I’ve been very happy with Be Canto monoblocks for many years (ref 300s and now ref 500s.) No going back to the heavy and hot power amps I used before.
Where is his very precise review of these new mono blocks against all the LATEST class D or otherwise,,,,,done directly in his listening room, RIGHT NOW. NOT there....not there at all. How does the Atmas-sphere compare to a Benchmark amp, to a VTV high powered Purifi or Orhard with all my mods, or to the AGD amps or to Pass amps or to super tube amps in that price range, etc.? How are we to know anything about how it really is and compares with anything already available? All reviews need to be against a known reference in the same system at the same time or it is totally meaningless. The reviewer does not even mention any other amps nor the amps that he currently owns. This review is typical of reviews these days.....completely meaningless.
Agreed. HiFi+ and TAS reviews (among others) are utter garbage because they almost never compare the review sample directly to any competitive product and often don’t even disclose the relevant component in their reference system. As such, their reviews are basically useless and IMHO serve as nothing more than a product advertisement. My theory on this is twofold:
1) Not comparing a review sample directly to a competitive product almost completely absolves the reviewer of any accountability or being pinned down on any assertions he/she makes — they just wax poetic about whatever they “think” or “feel” at the time. The mags that don’t do comparisons parrot the same line that “it’s unlikely anyone has that specific comparison piece in their system.” Hogwash!!! The fact is humans are very good at relative comparisons and much worse at judging individual things in a vacuum. Relative comparisons are almost always the most important and useful part of any thorough review.
2) It allows the reviewer, and thus the magazine, to spit out “reviews” at a much faster rate as making actual equipment comparisons significantly increases the time to write a review.
When I wrote reviews for Soundstage! a product comparison section was mandatory, and if a reviewer didn’t have or couldn’t get a comparable piece to do a relevant comparison to the product under review they didn’t get to do the review. Period. That, IMO, is the right and only way to do a thorough and meaningful review. Sorry for the sidetrack, but I thought @ricevshit on a very salient point that warranted some emphasis.
Ralph mentioned musical instrument amps. I have a 700 watt class d quilter for bass, and it does the job. I think digital for guitar is very much a debate. I think for clean sounds class d is great. The nuance of an overdriven marshall is the sort of thing folks are not quite there on—but as with all things digital—the technology improves over time. Many bar-playing musicians say the guitar amp emulation is not 100% but its close enough to use on stage and not hump heavy amps around.
As to audiophile, my assessment of Ralph over 40 years is that when he says his amp sounds great, I believe him. Over the years many golden ear types thought his amps sounded good, so he must have a good ear or have access to one.Switching technology is a different paradigm altogether, and its not hard to imagine tubes and linear transistors becoming extremely niche. I wish the best for ARC, and I hope they have this sort of thing in development.
This is how the internals of 1930 computers looked. Compare that to the internals of today's desktops/laptops/servers/super computers
That's it...I just got meself a brilliant business idea. My Class D-iddly amp company will, hereby, be known as "Exo-sphere", i.e., what you hear from my amp will launch you all the way past the atmosphere into the exosphere itself. You will be a lick away from feeling the eternally blakkkk background of space when you listen to my D-iddly amp.
I am gonna buy some kits from aliexpress for a 150 bucks with shipping. I will sprinkle some sodium chloride inside the chassis, light some incense and do a shamanistic dance with it. Thereafter, I will gorilla glue a fake gold label called "Exosphere" on it.
Price = 5700 USD, Exosphere profit per unit = 5550 USD
Thereafter, i will create a hidey account and play the pied piper for my product for a few months. I will pretend that i'm a completely ecstatic customer overjoyed with a Exosphere Class D-iddly amp. I will also pay a couple of other forum pied pipers to sing eternal ecstatic prose about my D-iddly amp.
As all you boys hand me your hard earned cash and empty your retirement accounts, I will laugh all the way to the bank and cash the checks selling Exosphere amps for 5700 a pop. When i see my cousin/my brotha from anotha motha (you know who) snickering away, cashing his checks at the bank, we will hug, hold hands, laugh together and get sloshed at the bar next door to the bank....Oh yeah...baby....Oh yeah...early retirement, here i come....
Looks like I stirred a pot by posting the review..lol! I always taken reviews as a guideline to one’s subjective opinion of a component in their system and personal preferences. Nothing more, nothing less! To @soixpoint, a comparison with any competitive product would’ve provided a bit more clarity and better understanding on how review sample stacks up against the competition. At the end of the day, it is still an opinion. No two systems are alike, let alone the environment and how we perceive sound…it’s all very subjective and complexed to nth degree.
@atmasphere class D mono’s been on my radar to audition in my system ever since they were announced. A crappy or over hyped review shouldn’t change anyone’s desire to audition or dump a component. A true test of a component is how it sounds (gels) within your system and to your ears.
A crappy or over hyped review shouldn’t change anyone’s desire to audition or dump a component. A true test of a component is how it sounds (gels) within your system and to your ears.
@lalitkYou got that right. If the manufacturer’s, distributor’s, dealer’s or reviewer’s lips are moving, they are lying- we’ve lived with that fact for so many decades, most of us grew up with it. So the only way to know what works, even for the jaundiced ’measurement only’ guys is to take the device home and play it in their system.
@atmasphere@lalitkJust to be clear, I found the review informative and loved how he compared the new amps to the M-60 and found the GaN amp to lack nothing compared to an excellent OTL amp (just as Ralph has maintained all along). That part meant a lot and spoke volumes to me. What would’ve made it much more meaningful and interesting would be comparisons to another GaN amp — hell any GaN amp — that would’ve made for a much more effective, informative, and useful review IMHO. But that’s too much to ask from rags like HiFi+ and TAS who’d rather not do all that extra work and expose themselves to any potential accountability — heaven forbid!!! I’m sure someone soon will write a truly rigorous review that I think a product at the level of Ralph’s GaN amp demands, and I very much look forward to reading that.
The guy reviewed the M-60s in July 21. Look up the review.....guess what? In the review of the M-60s he did not even mention any other amp. So, at least he is consistant....consistantly uninforming..... He writes very good ad copy. So, you have no idea how the M60s compared to anything else and then over two years later he tells you the M60s and the GaNs sound the same (from memory). Gee, that is really enlightening. Now I know everything there is to know about the possibilities of $6000 amps.....NOT!!!!
What is this mans purpose for reviewing if he is not going to tell you anything worthwhile? What is the point of ever posting anything anywhere if it is not to actually inform and be of service?
The greatest service I can give you is tell you to go out and listen for yourself because you are NOT going to get any real information from reviews in magazines. Posts on forums from those that have A/Bed in their own homes are generally more infomative. Trust yourself.
Thanks for the pics of the Technics innards. Have you hear their newer model G700 Mk 2?
I have both a Ric Schultz EVS 1200 (based on IceEdge modules with his tweaks) and a stock LSA Voyager GaN 350 (both are dual mono in one chassis). As much as I raved about the EVS, I was smitten with the LSA in the SS rack. Since then I compared my WW exotic cables/XLR with Ali-E faux Nordost Odin 2, which I much prefer. I have yet to compare amps since replacing my Solid Steel vertical rack with a horizontal 2' x ft 2" X 5' solid wood maple table, because in the process to horizontal I managed to take out one of the LSA modules, forcing me to reinsert the EVS, and must say, Ive been in no hurry to repair the LSA. When I do I will likely send it to EVS for upgrades
Thanks for the pics of the Technics innards. Have you hear their newer model G700 Mk 2?
No, i have not...not interested in that one. It has great reviews though. I specifically needed the SU-R1000's 300W into 4 ohms (without space heater amps deployed) for one of my speakers.
Current mfg of high end AD amps have a much higher profit margin on their AB design products, as the bulk of R&D expense has been paid for over time.
Once a product is introduced, a good mfg finds ways to lower cost over time to become a low cost - high quality producer, and then can make up for all the R&D going forward.
Having said that, I’d expect many big names are spending at least a few R&D $ on some Class D product development
As well as other new applications of technology such as Westminster Labs sliding bias voltage Class A cool running higher power solid state amps? They may well function superior to Class D amps.
As well as other new applications of technology such as Westminster Labs sliding bias voltage Class A cool running higher power solid state amps? They may well function superior to Class D amps.
The issue has been for the last 70 years and remains to this day Gain Bandwidth Product; if you plan to run feedback you need a lot of it. Easy to do with class D, very hard with conventional A or AB circuits.
To be honest, I have not put down any amplifiers. IMO I have not heard one that floats my boat or any of the people I know. BTW - I have not sold one piece of gear to anyone on Audiogon. Sorry if I came across this way to you. I only post my experiences and offer to invite anyone to came an listen to our various systems. It is a learning experience for us always. We enjoy meeting new people and hearing new things. We offer our help and offer to repair and upgrade any component for people who need that type of service. Not sure what others have "added" to this thread either. BUT if I came across the wrong way to anyone, then I apologize for that. That is never my intention. OK Ric?
Best class D I have heard is Lyngdorf. Not saying much as I haven’t heard a lot of class D but 5 or 6 but no “high end” class d. The Lyngdorf sounds the best out of the bunch I’ve heard without room correction, but with room correction it makes a world of difference, much more so than any small amplifier differences IMHO. Guess where I’m going is I don’t think class D is the future but dsp whether the final output to the speakers is class D, A, AB, H or what have you.
"Digital" amplification will eventually dominate both mass market and hi-fi, not that there won't still be products available with traditional topologies. In many respects, this has already happened in the "lifestyle" market at every level, from inexpensive wi-fi active speakers to high-end home hi-fi systems to professional gear. Bang and Olufsen, Devialet, Linn, Peachtree, Bluesound, Technics, Sonos, Genelec, Dutch & Dutch, Avantgarde Acoustics and many other companies are already there. With better performance, the high-efficiency (read: low energy cost) of the digital topologies have a compelling feature set. For those who want tube sound, preamps are already available that deliver that aesthetic that pair well with digital and GaN amps.
Class D is not digital, per se. Some manufacturers push the envelope though.
Class D is switching, but there’s no analog to digital/digital to analog process involved. It’s all done with feedback. :)
My guess however is that if we include all speaker amplifiers including those used in telephones and TVs and cars and portable Bluetooth speakers and your various talking devices out there that Class D accounts for more than 99% of all amplifiers made today. We in this forum are probably less than 0.1% of the remaining 1%.
Back to the point of reviews needing comparisons...it's not for the reviewer to say that product A sounds better than product B...because after all, it is just his opinion. But when a review goes into some detail comparing and contrasting what they heard; it gives the reader some information with which to triangulate.
You may not like Herb Reichert...but he always gives a bunch of comparisons...and if you can identify with any of them...then you can at least make some inference about how the product "might" sound in your system. And as we all know, that same product in our system, with our gear and our room may or may not impress.
It appears that the latest generation of class d amps...especially the GAN amps and especially a handful of the better ones are not longer being criticized as sounding thin or bright...but instead are being praised for sounding like/better than some of the highly regarded class a and class a/b amps.
are not longer being criticized as sounding thin or bright...but instead are being praised for sounding like/better than some of the highly regarded class a and class a/b amps.
ICEpower convincingly solved this problem decades ago. There are some megabuck Class A amps I won't listen to but plenty of ICEpower amps that I will.
Perhaps the GaN amps sound even better, but the truth is we've been blessed with excellent Class D amps for a while. The best comparison I have to triangulate is that I could not tell my Class D from my Parasound so I sold the Parasound.
Then I switched to Luxman which was even better. :)
Class D is not doing calculations in the strictest sense, so digital is not accurate. It does use fets switching on or off, so a binary state, similar to digital computers. So my thought is that calling them digital amps is a reasonable slang and everybody knows what it is referring to.
With computers, I consider the passage of time increases the value equation. This is due to technology improvements and economies of manufacturing scale. I am seeing class D as the same in this respect, but willing to be educated if I have that wrong. Is it safe to say that product will be moving to the faster switching gan devices? I imagine that industry uses millions of times more switching devices, so audiophile class D will benefit from innovations in the larger market.
I also imagine that the marketplace will consolidate in time. It seems like oem components allow one to enter the market with minimal capital investment. Or might it be remain computers where I can pick the components and build my own? Now atmasphere, and I imagine others, will roll their own, so there are sort of two approaches—like proprietary apple or component pc. Well I am not a very good future guesser, so looking forward to the insights of those closer to this. I will not be buying any more class a/b amps, and see this as the technology where the action will be.
I see these amps as having components: power amp, power supply, case with plugs, some sort of preamp or driver, and maybe adjustable controls. So, many permutations for designers even if they are simply assemblers of oem components.
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