I have a number of amplifiers: Luxman C900U, Bryston 4BSST2, Audio Research VSI 60 Integrated, NAD C298 and some other less noteworthy units. As I swap them in and out of my main system, I've come to the conclusion my very modest NAD C298 is about all I really need. Granted if I had extremely hard to drive speakers, I might be better with the Bryston or Luxman, but driving my Harbeth 40.2 speakers, the NAD is just fine.
I thought a while ago that class D would quickly overtake amplifier design type mainly due to profit margin which I think would be much greater than A/B and tube. I'm not saying the other design styles would go away, just that D would be the most common style.
Clearly my prediction is not panning out, at least in the mid and high-end audio world and I'm wondering why? It seems companies such as Bryston, Luxman, McIntosh, Hegel and so many others are sticking by A/B. I'm no "golden ears" guy, but is the perceived sound issue(weather real or imaginary) still holding D back? Maybe my assumption of profit margin is not correct? Maybe the amplifier manufacturers are experimenting with D, but keeping tight lipped until release? Perhaps brand loyalists don't want change similar to what happened with "new coke". What else am I missing?
Can someone please explain the wire with gain concept?
My understanding is that it's both a pretty cool and also a novel approach, but I'm not real hip to the technical stuff, esp the Pros and Cons. I rely on the opinions of others for that. This thread appears to have some of the most well informed members, tho.
For what it's worth, style is actually not only something that I take into account, but it's part of the reason I moved in this direction. I personally find the Lyngdorf style to be sexy as hell and it goes along with my decor beautifully. Very modern and cool with clean lines and not only does it only have 2 knobs on the front ... the action on the volume knob is totally freaking cool. : )
@deep_333 I've seen that list of quotes before. They got debunked due to their age.
A lot of those quotes you listed are from nearly 20 years ago. At that time I was of the same opinion as seen in them. One way you can date the quotes: look at Thorsten Loesch's comment about a 300KHz switching speed. No-one has made class D amps with that low a switching speed in a very long time 😁
So these comments can be discounted as simply out of date.
Your comment about GaNFETs seems a bit uninformed to me. Its not that GaNFETs are somehow 'the answer' so much as when they started turning up was also about the time that class D got a lot better figured out (and that was ten years ago...).
There's long been a tubes vs solid state debate on the internet, older that the internet itself. All technologies improve in time so one can safely conclude that sooner or later solid state would get good enough that tubes would simply be eclipsed. To tube aficionados like myself this also means that that new technology will eclipse solid state A and AB amplifiers as well.
I cannot speak for other manufacturers, only myself and that should be taken with a grain of salt since I am associated with a manufacturer. I've made no secret that I replaced my triode class A OTL amplifiers with a set of class D amps about two years ago and I don't hear any tradeoffs whatsoever. The class D amps are every bit as good and better in some ways then the OTLs. FWIW, the OTLs have been getting rave reviews and awards in the high end press since sometime in the 1990s.
As a result I'm of the opinion that class D is something to be reckoned with and isn't at all as you described; it dominates what we in the high end audio world call 'mid fi'- stuff you get at Best Buy and the like. Its been making inroads into high end the last 20 years and at this point, seems evolved enough that any manufacturer of amplifiers will be going out on a limb if they don't get class D figured out. Its that simple.
So, if I understand you correctly @mahgisterthen the idea that the old school separate pre amp and amp approach being "better" would sort of fall under the bigger is better type of logic, as well?
No you did not understand me at all sorry...
I never said that bigger cannot be better, with or without pre-amp...
I never said that upgrading is useless...
I never said that costly design are not often way better...
I said that BEFORE thinking about bigger, upgrades, and costlier options, we must LEARN about acoustical, mechanical and electrical embeddings and also about synergy and optimization (tweaking ) ... We must learn about our own acoustic experience UNDERSTANDING ...
Because beside the "law" of diminushing return there is another principle i name M.A T.S. : minimum acoustic threshold satisfaction...
my own system is under 1000 bucks and i dont need anything more...Not because it is the better , it is not, but it is so well optimized and so well embedded that it put me in sonic heaven...
It takes me years to understand with experiments in a rooom how to embed a system... its pay now... I listen music with a relatively good timbre, with minimal spatial soundfield characteristics definition and actual immersiveness level optimal for the price...
I compute that it will cost me 10,000 bucks to upgrade my satisfying 700 bucks system , nothing less...
I dont need it because lost in music i am able to forget sound without being bothered by any too evident limitations... I called that a rightful embeddings in the three working dimensions for ANY system at ANY price : acoustic, mechanical and electrical...
Great post from atmasphere answering the Quotes from decade ago...
it seems that class D and related design initiated a revolution , it is not an upgrade among other upgrade choices but another audio level not only for high end designer as him but for consumers ...
@deep_333 I've seen that list of quotes before. They got debunked due to their age.
A lot of those quotes you listed are from nearly 20 years ago. At that time I was of the same opinion as seen in them. One way you can date the quotes: look at Thorsten Loesch's comment about a 300KHz switching speed. No-one has made class D amps with that low a switching speed in a very long time 😁
So these comments can be discounted as simply out of date.
Your comment about GaNFETs seems a bit uninformed to me. Its not that GaNFETs are somehow 'the answer' so much as when they started turning up was also about the time that class D got a lot better figured out (and that was ten years ago...).
There's long been a tubes vs solid state debate on the internet, older that the internet itself. All technologies improve in time so one can safely conclude that sooner or later solid state would get good enough that tubes would simply be eclipsed. To tube aficionados like myself this also means that that new technology will eclipse solid state A and AB amplifiers as well.
I cannot speak for other manufacturers, only myself and that should be taken with a grain of salt since I am associated with a manufacturer. I've made no secret that I replaced my triode class A OTL amplifiers with a set of class D amps about two years ago and I don't hear any tradeoffs whatsoever. The class D amps are every bit as good and better in some ways then the OTLs. FWIW, the OTLs have been getting rave reviews and awards in the high end press since sometime in the 1990s.
As a result I'm of the opinion that class D is something to be reckoned with and isn't at all as you described; it dominates what we in the high end audio world call 'mid fi'- stuff you get at Best Buy and the like. Its been making inroads into high end the last 20 years and at this point, seems evolved enough that any manufacturer of amplifiers will be going out on a limb if they don't get class D figured out. Its that simple.
@atmasphere, It really comes down to one's 'point of reference', i.e. what type of gear a dude's spoilt by or not, what type of gear he grew up with (what type of gear created his taste pallet to begin with, etc...).
I grew up listening to my old man's class A vintage Pioneers and so on...That type of sound sticks with you, y'know? I spent years with most of Nelson Pass's stuff, cycled through some of Gryphon's stuff, etc, etc and this is my current list (spread out among different rigs)...
Luxman C900u+M900u, Yamaha C5000+M5000, Technics SU-R1000, Schiit Tyr, Zhongshen Class A, i.e. this is my point of reference at the moment. I am done buying sht for now.
But, for years, or atleast since 2000, i've been probing Class D every few years. The primary goal there was to not have space heater amps running in the room ---> Frequent HVAC activity ---> increased HVAC induced noise floor ---> loss of fidelity. I tried, but, every freaking time, i was let down by them. The Technics was the most i was able to deviate from Class A/AB, but, even that amp feels like a letdown some days.
I wish my ears were more forgiving. I think I could make some Class D work for my ears with tube line stages and dacs, but, i really don't want to deal with the confoundedness/pestilence/mainteance crap with tubes anymore...
Some pieces can spoil a dude and maybe it makes one's likes/dislikes appear a bit stronger (more pronounced in articulation perhaps). When i am a guy on the internet, i am joking about stuff. It makes me live rent free in @soix's head somedays, for instance 😁. But, i've walked into houses of dudes in my area with all kinds of gear at all kinds of price points and i don't say anything to hurt their feelings. I have a few drinks and i'm rocking with any kind of gear, i.e., I am a doll in real life. 😁
I am sure your stuff would be great for a lot of guys.
All the great recordings of 50s, 60s and some 70s were made with tube equipment, they will continue sounding their best with tube equipment. As for other recordings, well, this might eventually be different.
Not my area of interest, anyway, I will be listening to tubes. I am more interested in speakers' progress, and cables too.
There is a minor logical issue in my mind in this debate. Much is said that Class D is coming, i.e. improving so as to challenge Class A/B mainly. What is lost is that IMHO they have a ways to go, but let us not forget that Class A/B is allowed o improve as well.
None of them are going away, so we add another long term player ti the tube vs SS debate. It is good for all concerned.
For a long time we all thought vinyl was almost dead and now it rises from the ashes. The only source really dead is the 8 track tape, although cassette is on its last kegs IMHO. My only question is if R2R can make a comeback.
No-one will remember this class D in twenty years, and no- one really needs it except a few fashionistas. But we do need a completely new amplification device to be invented, both tubes and transistors virtually exhausted their potential. This is one more commercial BS, this class D, similar to another cd reissue, slightly better or slightly worse than the previous one.
Thats some impressive gear you have there. Would definitely like to see your setup, especially those Gryphon amps. You should post your system here - so we can drool 😆
Maybe my assumption of profit margin is not correct?
It's not so simple. There's R&D, market positioning, technical expertise, etc. True one must generate enough profit/revenue to cover costs for a business to survive, more to make the effort worthwhile, but there is much more to consider.
Sometimes reducing the profit margin (sales) to get deeper market penetration, to stimulate brand interest, and/or to reduce inventory (prevent from being stuck with outdated inventory, sell inventory to free up cash maybe to fund other projects).
One cannot easily play with the profit margin. To increase the profit margin, one would have to reduce costs and/or increase price. Reducing costs is very limited as you'll soon get to point where quality will decline. Raising prices is limited by the competition, beyond a point you'll loose sales to the competition. Audiophiles are adept at recognizing price/performance, we have to at these prices
@bigkidz your remark about class A mono blocks and how class D is “not even close”. Please do share what gear you are commenting about? Whatever your speakers - I’d love to stack a pair of Genelec “ones” next to it, with their brilliant implementation of class D amps inside. Some of the music you hear may have been produced on these Gens.
I have heard and owned Danish class-D ,Merrill Audio ,Roland research
ML and a bunch of others much depends not so much on Gan transistors which are faster and a bit lower distortion ,but there is just so much more
such as the power supplies ,regulation ,custom Analog output section
and many other parts selection and voicing.. the potential is there.
There is Huge price gouging ,Merrill Audio ,and several Danish companies $30 for monoblocks , they have fancy machined cases which the markup in some is 6x + 10x their cost which I feel Waay overpriced , I will just stay Class A,or AB for now
tube purist still go with Avery efficient speaker and a SET amp .it’s up to you .
4x is standard marketing procedure on average.I owned a Audio store
R&D overhead ,markup is normally 4x their actual cost
I wish my ears were more forgiving. I think I could make some Class D work for my ears with tube line stages and dacs, but, i really don't want to deal with the confoundedness/pestilence/mainteance crap with tubes anymore...
@deep_333@innaI get the whole thing about dealing with tubes. Imagine what that looks like when you are a provider of tube equipment! Now comes the tricky bit: imagine that as a manufacturer, if you produced a class D amp after 45 years of class A tube products, that if you make a substandard amp you will damage your market because people will think you've gone nuts, can't hear what you're doing, cashed in, stuff like that. Add to that the simple fact that every OTL manufacturer that ever moved from their OTL mainstays to solid state promptly went out of business.
So you can see we didn't go into this blindly. We knew the class D R&D would be a bust if it didn't sound every bit as good or better than our OTLs (which, in the tube world, rule the roost when it comes to transparency and bandwidth...).
As I've pointed out on numerous occasions, the sound of class D amps varies from worst to best over a wider range than tube amps and for that matter conventional solid state. What this means in plain English is if you've heard one, there's no way you've heard them all. Some are grossly incompetent IMO, some are soso, some are excellent. Most are somewhere in between.
So I've no surprise when someone says class D isn't for them. The truth of the matter is if they heard the right amp they likely wouldn't say that, but they have no way of knowing.
No-one will remember this class D in twenty years, and no- one really needs it except a few fashionistas. But we do need a completely new amplification device to be invented, both tubes and transistors virtually exhausted their potential. This is one more commercial BS, this class D, similar to another cd reissue, slightly better or slightly worse than the previous one.
Inna, I think you are mistaken about this. Class D has a longer history then it appears you know of from this post. It dates back to the 1950s and the first home applications were sold in the 1960s. Sony and Yamaha made class D amps in the 1980s. Like any technology its evolved. No-one takes germanium transistors seriously in this age but they were de rigor for solid state amps in the 1960s; only the very advanced designs used silicon. These days silicon has gone the way in favor of MOSFETs and IGBTs.
The big change that seemed to really push class D amps was the advent of self-oscillating circuits, which appeared about 20-25 years ago. This allowed for more reliable, stable and simple designs.
Tubes have not seen much evolution in the last 40 years by comparison. The big advances in the tube world have come from improved materials for construction (better capacitors and resistors for example) and not to put too much of a point on it, but innovations from designers. I'm one of those designers having several patents in the OTL world; another is David Berning with his excellent zero hysteresis radio frequency coupling system (usually called 'ZOTL' a meaningless acronym created by Harvey Rosenburg; they are not OTLs...) and perhaps Jack Elliano, who to my knowledge is the only one to push SETs further, with his patented class A3 technology and Ultra Path design.
I realize I'm not going to convince you of anything- listening is the only way to do that! But there is something you'll want to know: Over time, class D has been making inroads into the musical instrument market (bass and guitar amps). The first ones I saw, as in high end audio, were hard to take seriously. But that's changed. Guitar and bass players alike appreciate the reduction of weight while at the same time being able to get their 'sound' about which they are surprisingly picky- not unlike audiophiles. As class D invades that market, tubes will get pushed out. The musical instrument market is the bread and butter of tube producers. It appears that market will look very different in 10 years. So class D is something that has to be confronted and figured out. Whether that's already been done is a different story 😉
Speaking of bass and guitar players, with tubes you can tune and fine tune the sound by tube rolling. And with SS, any class ?
Ralph, you don't deny that with either tubes or transistors there is not much room left for big improvement. As you say, it's mostly better parts quality.
Speaking of bass and guitar players, with tubes you can tune and fine tune the sound by tube rolling. And with SS, any class ?
@innaMany guitar and bass players rely on their effects 'pedals' to sculpt their sound. So a lot of the time they just need an amp that sounds clean and is easy to play loud. Its less common to rely on the sound of the amp when it overdriven (clipping); those that do that though are more likely to have a tube amp. Just saying that since that latter practice is becoming less common (because effects pedals provide the distortion/fuzz instead), tubes will be on the wane in the musical instrument world. It makes a big difference at 3:AM if you have to move equipment out of a gig and the amp weighs 85 pounds or 15 pounds...
I find that in these forum threats it is helpful for someone to provide feedback on a technology or a particular sound that they have actual experience with.
Although there's some real nonsense happening here as people arguing back and forth about technologies in the pros and cons end of the day all I care about is the sound.
I have auditioned the arcam sa series and they have a technology which is apparently based on class d but they call it cost g. I thought it was really good sound really really good sound. And I know that it's meant for mass market audiences so the sound was a bit warm a little bit tube like but not fuzzy.
I did find it it locked just a little bit of detail and dimension or depth but this is a mass market class g
Be very interesting to see this technology go upscale for example what about an actual audio file grade class g amp from arcam. It may already exist but I haven't heard it.
So class d and g I think are really promising and really stinking powerful too. The arcam SA20 I auditioned powered by full cal 936s to whatever the heck volume you wanted to Man that had some juice.
Now I personally own the PS audio stellar strata integrated amp and that is a class d integrated app that retails for around $3,500. I love it. It's powerful it's detailed it's a bit on the warm side of sound so it warms up those f o c a l s . And month after month I raised my opinion of it. The dac cables. Speakers interconnects etc all make a difference at that level of sound quality. So yeah it's a class d. Is it the best? Who knows? Is there a color that's the best? But whatever it's very good very good.
So you can see we didn’t go into this blindly. We knew the class D R&D would be a bust if it didn’t sound every bit as good or better than our OTLs (which, in the tube world, rule the roost when it comes to transparency and bandwidth...).
@atmasphere, From what i’ve experienced thus far, the type of stuff you do could work for guys who mostly roll with midfi (they may think it’s hifi) or don’t have a high enough "point of reference". But, that shouldn’t worry you. You could still make enough money selling to those guys. IMO, what you won’t be able to do is convince guys who roll with any higher level of gear that your stuff should be sufficient for them as well.
For what its worth, I do have a "digital" amp (noted above), the Technics SU-R1000. It would sound pristine for a lot of guys for sure. It works for me in some cases. I am contemplating pairing it with a tube pre or something else for it to be agreeable to me in more cases/more types of music. One could open its chassis and immediately note that it is a innovative engineering masterpiece. You could get it yourself, compare your stuff side by side and let me know where you think you stand....Or let me know when you can beat the Technics and i’ll take a look at your amp.
On the same note, Schiit did something unique and innovative with the Tyr...You could try it as well (it is a very affordable amp) and see how your stuff measures up next to it.
In my third system I own the following gear, which I know most people would be jealous about:
Gryphon APEX Monos
CH Precision L1 dual Line Stage
dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC stack
Wilson Audio WAMM Master Chronosonic
All cabling is Nordost Odin 2
This system sounds so alive that I have stopped attending to concerts. But you are correct - Class D sounds so lousy. Forget about it.
@milpai, nice stuff you've got....i've cycled through all kinds of gear, but, my true breakthrough in high end audio happened after discovering the ACDA treatment options from Aoustic Fields. I literally tossed all my prior treatments in the trash after I found this stuff. It is not cheap, but, at your level of gear, I would seriously recommend these guys for room treatment. Don't waste any cash on all the other crap out there w.r.t room treatments. A guy will truly understand the criticality of competent treatment when he experiences it (you will hear things impossible with any level of gear on its own).
"Interleaving of multiple Class D Amplifiers is potentially a step in the right direction, but does not go far enough.Personally I think that the best option would be something that combines a Class D Amplifier for the heavy lifting with something Class A for fine detail.
Combination of designs of different class amplifiers may indeed work well. An example of such a combination of class D with class A was implemented in Digital Amplifier Company (DAC) Cherry amplifiers. Tommy had further plans to develop this line, unfortunately he passed away. So far, Cherry Megaschino is the best class D amplifier I have ever heard though it does get hot and is not light at all).
@atmasphere , From what i’ve experienced thus far, the type of stuff you do could work for guys who mostly roll with midfi (they may think it’s hifi) or don’t have a high enough "point of reference". But, that shouldn’t worry you. You could still make enough money selling to those guys. IMO, what you won’t be able to do is convince guys who roll with any higher level of gear that your stuff should be sufficient for them as well.
Wow. Just…wow. The arrogance of this condescending statement directed toward one of the most respected amp designers in the industry without ever even having heard the amp is…wow. Speechless.
Geese class D For Divisive?! Any way I actually love mine for one thing they save me a ton of money in initial cost -for -power and for running all night on streaming. Paired with some Harbeth 30.1's that are so easy to drive it works great. Only the Peachtree NOVA BTW. Quiet as a church mouse and no problems. Previous Krell equipment was a constant problem with clipping and grounding et al. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even still an "Audiophile"- Step 1 IS the MOST important 1 after all.
Class D is better if you are not cheap and look at a New Products from AGD and Mola Mola. However you need a budget from 15.8-25k. Then you get the good class D products from the top products.
there is no cheap magic bullet! If you spend the money you can get class D that sounds better than most AB things under 100 grand!
15k to 25k for 2 cheap Chinese boards in a box, aka class lousy D, so D maker can laugh his way to the bank? (Laughing at the big ol’ dumdums who paid him, bwaaaahahaha) No thanks...
Lousy D beat any class A under 100k? The Class D maker/naked emperor’s pride must be on a serious rise these days. Either that or the D lovin ASR psycho train chasing 0.00000000001% THD must be making more stops at the Audiogon station too these days.
15k to 25k for 2 cheap Chinese boards in a box, aka class lousy D, so D maker can laugh his way to the bank? (Laughing at the big ol’ dumdums who paid him, bwaaaahahaha) No thanks...
deep_333, you are not helping yourself make the point that any of your views/posts are actually worth listening to. I was going to suggest that maybe you spend the money and buy Ralph’s Class D monos and give them a fair shake in your system, and then let us know how they compare. You know, instead of trashing something it doesn’t sound like you have heard, and Ralph buying products that you own, and treating them as the holy grail in amplification and designing his to meet those lofty heights.
From what i’ve experienced thus far, the type of stuff you do could work for guys who mostly roll with midfi
Amp 1 : Luxman C900u+M900u
I’ve seen a post on this site where the person who rolls I guess relative to you in the ’uber-high-end’ talked about your M900u as one he would consider putting in his child’s room to play bedtime music. In my view it is hard to win an ego contest on an internet forum, so why try?
The only thing that is real is what is experienced. Many have experienced the "latest and sonically best" class D as equal to or even better than class A. Check out the latest from Steve Huff, for instance. He thinks the pure digital class D integrated amp from Mark Levinson (Daniel Hertz company) is better than any class A he has ever heard. The Daniel Hertz amp is similar to Technics and Lyngdorf and Peachtree GaN1.....pure digital input, no analog stages, no feedback. Levinson has proprietary software that enhances all digital sources (so he says).
If you have not even heard the latest analog class D amp.....like my modded units....like Ralph’s amps.....like the latest version 3 AGD units, etc.....then how you can know what class D sounds like? Your opinion, for it to mean something, has to be based on direct knowledge.....(actual A/Bs in your system).....for it to be worthwhile. Otherwise it is just ego BS.
IF you want to be taken seriously.....you need to talk from direct knowledge of what is happening RIGHT NOW with the latest gear.....not what you heard before.
I "think" that pure digital input class D will take over the market. The modded Peachtree GaN1 ($1800 including mods) sounds really great and some people think the STOCK Peachtree is as good as their $12K+ stack....if not better.....stack meaning DAC plus preamp plus amp. What is so cool about these inexpensive pure digital amps is that you can use two of them and make your own bi-amped system like described on my website......so for around $6K you have the crossover, two amps....all the drivers, wires and baffle.....fully equalized, fully open baffle, planar mids and highs, no normal xover, no binding posts, no DAC, no Preamp, no normal amp...no analog interconnects,,,easy to build. What this would give you is incredible sound.....basically untouchable for the money.......two 12 inch woofers on the bottom flat to below 30hz.......OMG!!! Who will be the first to try this? I will help you do it.
There are more and more powered speakers with built in class d amps (including direct digital class d) coming out all the time. We have only just begun......class D will keep getting better and better.....and pure digital class D makes the most sense to me (less is more). I think a modded Gan1 ($1800) would keep up with the latest $3K DAC plus latest $3K preamp plus Ralphs amps ($5400) plus two interconnects ($500).....or basically $12K total. Now compare that 12K system (WITHOUT speakers and speaker wires).....to the $6K total system mentioned above that INCLUDES super seriously tweaky speakers........no contest.
I’m not sure if it’s prudent to quote Steve Huff to prove your point.
Not too long ago, he thought the class A pass labs was the bees knees. Before that, Luxman was the best thing since sliced bread. Recently, he said Aavik was the best amp he had ever heard. Everything is endgame, “the last component I’ll ever own, will take it to my grave” as far as he’s concerned.
how much do you want to bet he will have another endgame component three months from now?
Who are the people who think Peachtree is better than their 12 k systems?
While we’re at it, I want everyone to know there are folks who think their $500 class AB is at least 70% better than the modded Peachtree Gan amps. See how this works?
Check out the GaN1 thread here on Audiogon for a couple of posts by people who liked the stock and modded GaN1 better than their $12K system. I did not make this up.
So, who do you know that liked their $500 class A/B better than the stock Gan1 by 70%? Do you have a link to their statements/postings? The stock GaN1 can only sound as good as the source and the digital cable and its footers, power cord, line conditioning, etc. Just the digital cable alone makes a world of difference....and of course, the mods take it to another whole level.
"Do you really want to hurt me?......do you really want to make me cry?"
Or.....do you really want to serve me....worship me......and want me to be happy?
You are beautiful, I am beautiful...everyone is beautiful....we are all worthy. It is now time to stop this "making wrong" game. Make everyone Right.....just say "YES!" OMG it feels so good.
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