An interesting exercise would be presenting demos of several like things without providing the retail value of each version.
Hard to not introduce bias when telling the viewer the $ of each one.
Can you tell the difference between a $200 and a $200,000 guitar?
Can you tell the difference between a $200, $2,000, $20,000, and $200,000 classical guitar? Direct comparison starts at 27:39.
44 responses Add your response
Well, I agree with Frog, but that player..can't play a single note really. Clearly, as heard on youtube, $20k guitar is the best value. The best acoustic guitar that I ever heard live was played by great flamenco guitarist Paco de Lucia. It was custom Conde Hermanos made in Spain instrument. It had an incredible and very powerful sound. Don't know the price, but it was years ago, so probably something like $50k maybe or less. |
So true. I have no problems watching YT videos, and discerning the sound of systems that are of very high quality. It’s not as if YT makes $200K systems sound the same as a $2K system. I can still listen "around" the limitations of YT, and hear enough of a systems attributes to get a pretty good idea I am listening to a good or great system. |
Yes, of course the guitarist is more important than the the guitar. Thanks for the tautology people. It is a no brainer that a brilliant classical guitarist would be much better to listen to on the $200 guitar, than a hack would be on the $20,000 guitar. Duh... But that is kind of a non-sequitur, isn’t it. And it’s missing the point of the entire exercise. |
@frogman Agreed. I cannot fathom how some folks cannot compensate for YouTube etc. The musical differences rendered therein are patently obvious. The brain is weird. I was talking to friends and learned that some do not see images when reading a book-merely receiving the information as verbal data and understanding. Can you imagine reading a good book and not being there? Some also admitted to never having seen images in dreams. Huh?! It blew my mind a little! |
Inexpensive guitars built with plywood top, back and sides sound OK, but they won’t improve over time. Solid wood guitars open up and get louder with playing time. Vibration is causing some changes in solid wood. Solid top is the most important since it produces 80% of sound. Top in classical guitars is likely Cedar or Spruce (two materials with the highest strength to weight ratio), while back and sides in expensive classical guitars are most often solid Rosewood. Even material for the fretboard or the neck affects the sound. Harder fretboards made with Ebony make sound crispier (higher harmonics) than one made with Rosewood. As for the “action”, they mentioned in the video, it is the gap between 12th fret and the bottom of the string. In classical guitar it is almost always 4mm on the bass and 3mm on the treble end. Reducing it makes playing easier, but it kills the sound. Some classical guitarists set it even higher at 5mm. Truss Rod to adjust relief in this $200 guitar is very unusual. Pretty much all acoustic guitars have it, but it is very rare in classical guitars. |
As some have said, a great player will make an average guitar sound good, but it's like asking Mario Andretti to drive a Yugo in a race. Even a pair of $5000 guitars from the same luthier may sound different, as each piece of wood is unique. Well aged and often played guitars also change in timbre over time, and generally for the better. A well recorded classical or steel string guitar is a joy to listen to on a fine system. |
Note also that acoustic guitars really respond to being played frequently. Richard Hoover (Santa Cruz guitars) tells a story about a Stradavarius in Cremona that gets played a little every day to keep its tone "alive." Hoover also likes mahogany a lot, and will tell you you really have to play these guitars often to make 'em sing. There are gizmos that will vibrate a guitar for you to break it in which means maybe you don't have to play it at all...give your friends a break from your crappy guitar playing. I use my 3 fave acoustics on a rotating basis as they all sound great and utterly different from each other and I feel bad if one doesn't get played enough. |
To state that the player makes a bigger difference than the guitar is stating the obvious. However, if the suggestion is that it doesn’t matter if a great player is playing a great guitar or a mediocre one this is a false assertion. Sure, a great player can make good music with a mediocre instrument, but he can make great music with a great instrument. The comparison in the video clip: The difference between the $200 and $2000 guitars is immediately obvious. The $200 instrument sounds thin, almost ukulele like in the high register and lacking in color. The $2000 one is much richer sounding and with greater presence. The differences between these two instruments is, to my ears, greater than those between the $2000, $20,000 and the $200,000. My favorite is the $20,000 guitar. The player in the video, hardly a guitar genius, seems the least comfortable with the $200 guitar and the most comfortable with the $20,000 one as demonstrated by his phrasing and overall musicality. It is very possible that a truly great player could coax the best sound out of the $200,000 instrument. With all instrument families there is a difference between “playability” and ease of playing. An instrument that is “easier” to play doesn’t always give one the best sound. Some instruments demand the familiarity that only comes about by living with the instrument for a significant amount of time in order to learn how it responds best. |
“Just play the guitar you like” is my take on it. |
@soix @garebear As a fellow drummer, I found that the type of wood really makes a difference only in the studio setting. I find that the hoops and the heads make the most difference and when you're playing live and Amplified setting the type of wood really makes no difference at all, especially to an audience. Now, when I'm playing an acoustic jazz gig, then yes I find it does make a difference just in terms of projection and tonality. |
A Stratavarius violin can sell for millions. A ‘50s Fender Strat in pristine condition can sell for half a million. Surely, these both are priced for their rarity. But also surely both produce amazingly, uniquely wonderful tone. I have been a professional singer/songwriter for over 50 years accompanying myself on steel string acoustic guitar. Having owned many guitars, I currently play 2. A 1937 Gibson LOO and a fabulous slope shoulder dreadnaught that was custom made for me by a brilliant local luthier. Here in Portland, OR we a fortunate to have several nationally recognized great luthiers. Mine, Kerry Char, being familiar with my music and style, took a full year to design and build a very special instrument just for me. It is not 80+ years old like my Gibson but uses very special and rare 100 year old Brazilian rosewood (the king of tone woods) back and sides and beautiful and rare Alpine spruce for the top. I think of my Char guitar as priceless. In the high end acoustic guitar market, it would be priced in the $40-50K range. Beauty of tone of guitars in this range is generally superb. You do get what you pay for. For serious players, the difference is profound and clear. The tone of these old Martins is magic. The less rare ones can be found for around the price of those high end new ones. My ‘37 Gibson, while not up to the build of the ‘30 Martins, also has a unique and lovely tone. But I mostly play my modern Char. Its tone is bell-like and beautiful. I did have an amazing 1945 Martin. Keeping it in the family, I gifted it to my talented granddaughter. It has much of the ‘30s Martin magic. She deserves it more than I. These beautiful instruments become personal and precious. |
There are tremendous differences in the tone of acoustic and classical guitars. @Kijanki summed it up pretty well. with fine, completely hand made classical guitars, the clarity, warmth and depth of tone are completely different from cheaper guitars. If you strum a chord, you can hear each individual note. It all blends together into an undifferentiated sound with lesser guitars. the materials used are important, but the skill of the luthier is the most important thing. flamenco and jazz guitars are designed to be less resonant. Players want the notes to fade out more quickly, so each note does not interfere with the one which preceded it. With a classical, you’re often playing 2 or 3 voices at the same time, and need the greater sustain. better classicals are also louder and project into an audience more. Unfortunately it’s rare now to hear great players without amplification, which masks some of the tonal nuances. |
Being a guitar player since my teens and opening for many Big rock bands, I can tell you that I can't play a $200 guitar.....the $2,000 plays much easier and has better wood that sounds much richer...$200 for a guitar is throwing your money away. If I can't play it , You certainly won't be able to and it will sit in the corner as a piece of furniture. |
……the wood or wood used on any guitar does not effect the sound produced ? That is just a marketing play as noted by one persons opinion here ? That doesn’t seem right to me ……I tried to play drums for 17 years and the wood used in the drum shells did make a difference . I would that ant unnelectrified stringed instrument that the wood , would make a difference . If I am incorrect please let mr know and why …… |
I've been a professional guitarist since 1967. I've owned a LOT of guitars and tonewoods make a huge difference even in electrics. Interestingly every seasoned electric player sort of gets their own tone going...listen to Billy Gibbons using all his weird guitars and his feel and desired tone is kind of the same. I currently own electric guitars with identical pickups that sound and feel utterly different from each other. There are vintage or "collectable" instruments that are stupidly expensive (a store nearby just sold a vintage Les Paul to Joe Bonamassa for 450 grand), but the 200 grand comparison is sort of silly really...stick any Collings guitar in the hands of somebody used to playing a Takamine and watch 'em smile. |
The more expensive guitar sounds clear without haze. The cheaper one sounds dirty and veiled. I am surprised that different guitars’ sounds are a same way with my system sound. I can hear from >100 my system videos (recorded last few years) in my YT channel and I can hear later videos sound cleaner and detailed without haze. I worked very hard for cleaner speaker sound and I perfected it now. Also, I can hear better power cords make cleaner sound (like guitar sounds) from 4 PC comparison video below. PC compared: JPS $700, Zentara $2200, WTv2 $1000, WTPC $2400 To hear cable sounds, 2) In YT, make a small YT window (narrow & tall, right half screen) to see the video screen and 2 time stamps (18:51, 4:45 in description) are in the same screen. |
The difference in acoustic guitars is real and detectable to people who play. "Classical" guitars are a breed of their own. I play steel stringed guitars. IMHO, good to great guitars can be found (new) in the 2K to 8K range. Once you get above that, it becomes an issue of scarcity or name/builder. A John Arnold, Wayne Henderson or Blazer and Henkes may sell for $5k new, if you're willing to wait several years. But it will easily bring 4 to 5 times that on the used market, BTW, they all make copies of old Martin guitars from usually the pre WW2 era. Prewar Martins are in a league of their own and command 5 and 6 figure prices. |
Different pickups and strings will produce different sound for each guitar. The wood they are made of has no effect when they are plugged into an amp. Tonewood is a myth employed by marketers to justify higher prices. I couldn’t disagree more. You know not of where you speak. |
Yes the playeris by far the biggest difference. the rarity’s most key especially 50-60s , if owned by a legend like Jimi Hendrix over $1Million dollars easy especially if documented at a event like Woodstock for example. . To be honest $2k you can get a excellent guitar ,then install your own specific custom pickups to give you the sound you are looking for , as well as strings ,tuners, and have it professionally setup, and most important your amplifier , Vacuum tube by far still the most popular but even good SS models have all kind of feedback and sounds you can do then special products such as petals . Lots to it ,practice practice practice ,is key !! |
Although I don't play classical guitars, I would imagine that the different wood, set-ups, make them more playable from each other and sound different. But a good guitarist doesn't really need a great guitar to sound good, if you know what I mean. Being a friend of Gary Paul, les Paul's grandson, I have played a bunch of electric guitars and while I can play each one of them well, I do prefer the sound and playability of a 1959 Les Paul over the newer ones that I own. LOL Happy Listening. |
Presence - how responsive/resonant sound is in normal playing |
jasonbourne71 Do you not think the video clearly illustrates the differences? Subjectivity aside, my thought after watching the entire video reminded me of how the more finely crafted the audio component, the better it sounded.@mahgister +1 |
Sound is universal human perception affecting us on parts or locations of our emotional and physical body consistent through all cultures... This is a demonstrated recent acoustics science fact...
What rules acoustics is "timbre" perception as a concrete physical set of invariants reflecting the vibrating sound sources qualities , not abstract Pythagoreans mathemahical ratios... Sound is not an abstract vibrating waves in the air... It comes from a vibrating sound sources endowed with specific qualities we can be trained to perceive.... The most simple one : tap a fruit and you will learn if it is ripe and ready or not ... Then sound quality is not "subjective " as in delusional... It is "subjective" as in objectively statistically observed physical sound source vibrating invariant qualities perceived by all cultures in the same way ...
A musician well trained will distinguish in a relative objective way the differences between different guitar design quality...😊
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@noromance : My mistake! Yes, acoustic guitars all sound different. Just like violins, violas, cellos ... Since sound quality is so subjective one may prefer the cheap guitar over the expensive one! |
@jasonbourne71 These are classical guitars. |
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