Another "bait post", is happening a LOT on Agon lately. Starts 5 threads on the same subject, and the abandons the thread
BEST SPEAKER THAT COMES TO LIFE AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS
My system is as follows:
- Martin Logan 11A Impressions hybrid electrostatic speakers.
- Bryston 4B3 cubed power amp 300 per channel into 8 and 500 into 4.
- Bryston BP-19 preamp, Chord Qutest Dac & Lumin U2 mini stream.
- SVS subs-pair of SB-4000
- I listen at 55-60 dbs. Can anybody recommend a speaker with a budget of $15,000.00 per pair that sounds alive and dynamic at low listening levels. My dealer sells, Totem, Triangle and Proac.
- Any recommendations would be appreciated. Due to age and ear issues I can listen comfortably at 55-60 dbs and not much louder.
- Thanks in advance for any help that you can provide.
103 responses Add your response
+ for low level compensation, loudness switch, whatever you want to call it, I listen to most music at low levels and use this feature exclusively. It's a matter of implementation, I have found the compensation switch on my Accuphase Preamp to give that texture and body missing at lower volume levels. My ears prefer a lower volume level as I have gotten older. My neighbors are probably happier as well. |
Electrostatics are good at low levels but not dynamic. I listen at 65-70 db max. I had the Tannoy FSMs and found them satisfying at low levels contrary to an earlier comment. I also had the Fritz Carrera 7 Best and loved them. Now I have Sanders 10e's and they are also good at low levels but dynamic is not available at low levels in my experience. Other great speakers- Franco Serblin, Joseph Audio. Good luck! |
+1000 Fletcher Munson It's settled science. I bought a Schiit Loki Max a while back. I use one preset that resets everything to zero change, where I can twiddle the knobs to adjust poor recordings. The other two I have programmed in different versions of the Fletcher Munson curves, corresponding to ~55-60 dB listening and to ~65 dB listening. It has fundamentally changed my enjoyment of low level sessions.
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I’m in the same boat as the op. I have tried many options. Now I have TAD ME1 speakers, TAD C600 preamp, TAD M1000 amp, Lampi Baltic 4. Shunyata delta hydra 6 conditioner, Skogrand Tchaikovsky cables. I will demo Dutch and Dutch active speakers and may save a lot of money with not worse results considering I listen to 60 to max 75db due to neighbours. |
A little of "out of the box thinking," do yourself a favor and try a home audition of either Shunyata's Everest or Typhont T2/Denali combo conditioners. I do listen at a low level quite frequently and was astonished at what my Typon/Denali combination did to my system; the low-level presentation was undoubtedly one of the many highlights. I never understood what a 'blacker background' meant in audio parlance; now I do! |
As others have already said, FLETCHER MUNSON
Oh how I wish I’d known about Fletcher Munson when I was flipping speakers! I went through everything from little Harbeth P3ES to their biggest M40.1 to giant Tannoy FSM with 2 x 5” cones per box! From Focals to Transmission Lines… I never found a speaker that satisfied me at low volumes! IMHO, the options are : - Adjust your Subs to your taste. That’s what I do. - Get an amp with a Boost button or get some form of EQ. - Use Headphones.
Good luck! |
OP You said "due to age and ear issues", so I am assuming you already have had your hearing tested, perhaps already use hearing aids some or most of the time ..... IF not, I also recommend having your hearing evaluated. Fully normal, or using hearing aids: Fletcher Munson compensation is still needed for low volume listening. Other hearing issues and solution may ALSO be needed. If you rode the NYC subways in the 60's, or if past 50 years old, more than likely you will find age related reduced sensitivity to high frequencies, and like me, you may find other differences, in my case a life long hereditary thickening of a bone was revealed along with age related (I'm 76) diminished sensitivity to highs, My experience: got prescription for from my GP; had them inspected and cleaned by ENT specialist who then gave me a prescription for a professional audiologist who gave me a print-out chart of the test results and a couple of cost estimates, $5k; $6k.. I searched online found free testing by a 2nd professional audiologist, they programmed a demo pair, holy smokes what a difference, left with a test chart and a few cost options, $6k; $7k. Costco Hearing Centers are Excellent, top models only $1,600. After online research, I knew they were a good option, joined for $60. They were as equipped and professional as the audiologists, and offer only the top models of 3 makers: Philips; Rexton; Jabra, 6 months trials. I tried Philips 9040's, compared Rexton walking around the store, they upgraded me during the trial period to Philips 9050. They work fully with Apple and Partially with Android Smart Phones. Very good, it was a hard choice, at the 98th day of Audicus Trial, I chose the Audicus Omni 2. Work Fully with Apple and partially or fully with Android: Tap your ear lobe to answer and tap to end a call is one feature, and using the mic on the hearing aid for calls (rather than the mic in the phone) means I can answer a call without opening my flip phone, turn my head, walk around, even out of the room when on the phone. The phone connects to the car, and I may have the convertible top down, the Audicus sounded better to callers.
My final choice. $1,900. Mostly online, give them your test chart or take their online test. video zoom appts, far better pricing, 100 day trial. I'm close enough to one of only a few of Audicus's physical offices in NYC, took my test results, they fit me with a pair of Omni Series 2, they work fully with both Apple and my Android, as well as sound terrific, including their Music, and Live Music modes which I found preserved the wide frequency range and imaging of my system better than Philips 9040 or 9050 which are very good, you may prefer either, it's that close.
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As mentioned earlier efficient horns with a large woofer preferably of 15 in. work well at low volume. Klipsch Cornwall lV may fit the bill. A quality amp where, again as mentioned, the first couple watts are clean, such as a number of Class A Nelson Pass First Watt models. Think F3, F5, SIT 3 or 4 or new(er) F8. Add a quality tube preamp and I think you have the deep, full room filling low volume sound you’re hoping to find. Best Rich |
I just destroyed my spare Chase Unit, the 1/2" drill bit was dull, and while drilling, the bit dug in, the entire unit violently flipped 180 degrees, slammed the crap out of my arm, and the transformer dislodged, breaking it’s tiny wire, not enough clearance to solder, I can’t fix it, so I’m in the market for a working spare at a great price. I don’t need a remote, the lights just need to blink when it’s plugged in, that's enough for me to take a chance on one without a remote. I always want to positively know when it is at default settings, and unplugging it is not convenient. A rotary switch in the power wire that I can reach will be as easy as a face mounted toggle switch, with less risk, I need a new 1/2" metal bit or set of metal bits too. You win some, you lose occasionally, oh well, happy new year. |
+1 porchlight1. You prob suffer frequency specific loss of hearing. The Schiit options seem logical, efficient, super inexpensive to try. So why not. Also, if you could increase your listening distance, the speakers' non-linearity at low level might be improved. I have similar needs, complicated by my left and right hearing being different. I use a Schiit on each channel with slightly different eq on each. The imaging / staging improved and my "perception" of proper freq balance was achieved. |
Many people here wanting to throw equipment/$$$ at a problem without completely understanding the problem first IMHO... It's akin to mechanics who simply replace parts without doing thorough diagnostics. @sgordon1 has the right idea: Get an ear exam. Fully understand what your ears are really hearing, or not as the case may be. Then you can start working on a solution be it, EQ, room treatments, whatever. That reminds me, I need to get an exam as well. I'm not getting any younger! Happy listening.
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The best speakers for low level listening with full dynamic range and tonal clarity with no need for any equalization are the original Quad ESL-57. It may be difficult to find a good pair, but well worth it. We have added the needed bass octave with the addition of an Audio Note Cobra. You should easily be able to stay within the budget. |
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Run a 1/3rd octave tone generator on your system along with a db meter and you'll likely find out "elliot" is correct and our ears are much more sensitive to tones from around 600hz to 3khz and even if your speakers measure flat they'll sound deficient above and below the midrange. The old Yamaha receivers did have adjustable loudness, but if you don't want to mess around with tone controls and decide to find speakers that use the Fletcher munson curve.There's several brands that design their speakers with that curve in mind and they get great reviews. Raidho is an overpriced example, Vienna Acoustics is a more affordable option that should compensate well for low volume listening. |
I’m not sure you can do better for low volume listening, as electrostatic speakers are known for their resolution at low levels (mainly due to the lack of mechanical hysteresis - getting that heavy cone up and running - in dynamic drivers) and your Martin-Logan’s are definitely fantastic electrostatic speakers. Panel speakers, like yours, are very nearly line sources whose sound pressure decreases 3dB with each doubling of distance (the inverse law 1/r) where as point sources (cones, domes, etc) follow the inverse square law 1/r*2 where sound pressure falls off by 6dB per doubling the distance. I think maybe some EQ options that others have mentioned might be the best solution. A Schiit Loki+ 4 band EQ at $149.00 between your preamp and power amp would handily do the trick. It’s totally transparent, easily bypassed, and made in the USA. The Lokius at $299 takes you to 6 bands and balanced in/outs. The Loki Max at $1499 adds remote control to all the controls. Enjoy your great system! |
High efficiency horn loaded + EQ, either software based at streamer or analog piece between DAC or pre.amp and amp set to compensate for fletcher-Munson curve noted above. I often listen at low volume and have a Klark-Teknik DN-360 between DAC and integrated amp feeding Klipsch horns. Sounds very full and alive at low volumes. When I turn it up louder, simply disengage the EQ or turn boost way down. Works great. With your budget look at Volti horn loaded speakers. |
Any Tocaro. Not just high sensitivity but they „excite aiir“ rather than pump air. Always wonder if you see membranes moving. Even at ear shattering loudness they hardly move. But just „explode“ at low levels. Tocaro from Germany. No marketing bs. Just decades old and highly refined and improved principles. |
Since you have tried ML ESL hybrids, and liked them, why not audition a full range ESL, especially Quad 2912 and Sound Labs? I’m a Quad man, (ex ML - got tired of hybrids, YMMV) and I listen at such low volumes that my friends complain about it. So I guess that we have something in common there. I can say from experience that Quad ESL’s work well with Bryston - I moved up to my own cost-no-object build, but Bryston still sounds good to my ears. Magnepan also fits with your 4B3, and might also fit well with your own requirements. I use a pair of 7B3’s for LF augmentation (Magnepan DWM). And don't spend a dime on exotic cabling until everything else is exactly where you want it. Least bang for buck, most depreciation. IMO. YMMV. Good luck! |
I have Magico A3’s mated with same subs as yours - Svs sb4000 and I am quite pleased. They are at your budget new but can be found used for much less. I have a db app on my phone and not sure of its accuracy. I set it at 60 db at my listening position. I can listen at that level but my 72 yo ears do not pick up all the nuances at that level. I have tennitis which I’m sure doesn’t help. I like it at 70-80 db. I have a dedicated room I can shut off so it doesn’t hinder the wife’s sleeping. Some have posted the A3’s are “dark”. I don’t find that the case at all. Of course cables make a huge difference in how and speakers will sound. I’m using Audio Sensibility signature cables that are quite revealing. Signal is via Innuos Zenith MK3 with Phoenix USB; USB switch with fiber optic. All interconnects are premium Audio Sensibility and Less Loss. I’ve not heard your DAC but I know DACs too make a huge difference in sq. I’m on #4 now and think I’ll stay awhile with the T+A DAC 200. There are better ones but, for the money, not sure. There are so many good speakers out there for your budget. Try to listen to as many as you can. If you’re willing to spend 15k, and don’t mind used, you can get speakers that retailed at 25-30k. And you’ve got power aplenty to drive almost anything. I’m powering my A3’s with 300 w, a Hegel H500. Happy hunting!! |
Op we were a Bryston dealer for years the 4b amplifier is good the 19 preamp is okay, a tube preamp will add a fuller midrange which will increase your sense of fullness at a lower volume level we know your loudspeakers well lone of our clients has them. the Legacy fFocus or Aeris will give you what you are seeking
changing your preamp will really flesh out your sound. Dave and Troy Audio Intellect NJ
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Buy a pair of ESS AMT 2b, with Heil Air Motion transformers and a sexy tight bass with a 12" woofer and 12" passive woofer. |
@bubba12 ++
May be , room acoustic treatment could help. If not , a highend headphone kit could be the solution |
@kjl1065 - I believe the only speaker type that would fit your bill will be a one driven my electromagnets - ie: field coil driver/s. Thing is, these don’t come cheap and to fit within your budget might take a little more than 15k brand new, although you should be able to find a used Wolf Von Langa Son at about that : ) in friendship - kevin |
I see you have started 5 separate discussions, all come down to this one, revealing that you need to listen at low volumes. Your ear’s sensitivity at low volumes is the source of the lack of body, and perhaps lack of brilliance. Please trust that Fletcher Munson sensitivity is real, well known, and the solution is easy, some slight signal compensation that is needed by nearly anyone, any speakers, any system, try that 1st, you have some very nice equipment. I am saying, for me, I don’t need the highs boosted, you might, if so, remember it is a deviation from a speaker designer’s goal (essentially flat at normal volumes), best accomplished by signal compensation, in your case most of the time, but still it can be automatically variable, or manually variable relative to known facts about our hearing. Ignoring this is like a Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Self-Thickening Socks are needed as the Sun moves. 1. L-Pads in the speakers, you would do well with mine, or any vintage speaker that included L-Pads or a Switchable Resistor Network. However, they are best used to adjust in the listening space, for ’normal listening levels’, as they are ’set and forget’, not progressive. I adjust mine, takes about 1-1/2 days of careful work with a SPL Mic and CD with Test Tones. That is for ’normal’ and louder. I’m a big fan of adjustability for a listening space, and/or adjusting for individual ’general’ preferences, but this still does not solve low level listening. 2. Equalizer: I just tried a DBX Clone 31 band dual channel equalizer, it is also ’set and forget’, ’in or out’, I took it out 3. Chase RLC-1 is automatic and progressive, it works, remotely, very much like my Yamaha Receiver which has two volume controls that you manually setup and adjust:, one marked ’volume’ (set it like a preamp, for normal volume, leave it there; and the other marked ’loudness’. start ’flat’, it progressively implements Fletcher Munson bass boost and also boosts highs as you lower the volume, louder than flat, you raise the main volume control, remember to lower it to ’normal. this implementation can work, but I know, and still turn the wrong one, which is why using the Chase and re-setting it to it’s defaults is handy. As I mentioned, I use the Chase for Remote Volume and Mute when working, thru the ’adapter’ loop. You can view the photos large enough to see all the details/features of that CR-Yamaha CR-1040 Receiver here, those were the days. https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11519
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OP, I think it is very resonable to assemble a high end audio system and only listen at very low levels. I listen at lower and lower levels as I have gotten older and enjoy the nuances better and better.
I do not have an answer. My system has sounded the better it has gotten. Each upgrade cycle has made it sound better at lower levels. I have heard a couple of vary well know reviewers typically listen in the 60db range. |
Chase Innards, a Motorola Chip I presume for the display and remote, a Philips Chip for the features, zero noise (105 db s/n ratio) useful features. I just bought this spare unit, I will add a front toggle on/off switch when it arrives, so I can get back to defaults without unplugging it.
One unit arrived no good, the little transformer on the power board had come off, it must have been seriously dropped,
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there is a lot of bad advice on this forum and every audio forum because most of the members get their info from people trying to sell them bigger and more expensive amps. There are dealers who are members here to throw fuel on the fire. I had Martin Logans CLS and what I liked most about them was the tremendous midrange that sounded excellent at low volume. of course they lacked bass but ML fixed that with the hybrid and your 11A sould be spectacular at low volume. I often say that if your system has to be turned up to sound good, then your system sucks. Not attacking your system at all but I commend you for wanting to achieve what most people here think doesn’t exist. First, lets look at your source. the Qutest is nice, probably your best bet in that price range. I have the DAVE. I upgraded DAVE to a Lampizator GG3 but right now I am back to DAVE as my Lampizator isn’t playing nicely with the Amp. A used chord DAVE is an awesome buy right now as they are getting old but still sound excellent. Between the DAC and the AMP, I have a Transformer Volume Control by Akustika Eterna (disclosure, I have an interest in that company). Using the TVC makes any system sound "bigger" and "fuller" at low volume. It it is a bit spendy. Streamer--I have a grimm which is a higher price range but you get the least bang for the buck upgrading your streamer. So I would focus elsewhere. Now to the meat of the system. I discussed the source first because GIGO, you have to have a good source. But then if your amp isn’t great, you’ll lose all the good work you are doing at the front end. At your listening levels, you’re listening to 1 watt or less. But you have a 300W amp. I’ve yet to hear a 300W amp that sounds great at 1/2 watt. I’ve often wondered if you can get by with a 6 wpc 300b amp on the new MLs since the bass is provided by the onboard amp. Probably not. But I did try my ML CLSs with a 30 wpc push pull tube amp that sounded great. That was a decware ZMA. If you don’t want tubes, there are many lower power ss amps that focus on giving you a great first watt. but as they say, if the first watt sucks, the next 299 won’t help. Focus on the first watt. So in conclusion, I’d focus on the amp first and then the DAC. I have a friend who uses the Qutest in a very excellent system that sounds great at low volumes. Jerry PS you can probably lose the preamp. Preamps aren’t necessary in most cases but again, dealers always want to sell more gear and owners always want to stand behind their buying decisions. they just add another level of processing that takes away from the great sound, espcecially at low levels. easy to try--plug your DAC into your amp and see how it sounds. I don't think the Qutest has volume control (DAVE does) but you can use Roon volume control is pretty good if you use Roon. of couse I recommnd the TVC mentioned above but it is another expense. |
this is the lowest price for a working Chase RLC-1 I have seen since I’ve been buying them (I have 4, got another 3 for friends) Chase RLC-1 with Remote, $50. delivered, just listed Your system, your existing speakers, any future speakers, will sound more involving at low volumes. You must have a remote, no controls on the box unplugged/plugged in all lights blink restores it’s defaults: everything centered, no boost. Adjust your preamp for ’normal’ listening volume. leave the preamp’s volume there for ever. up, use the chase, no compensation dn, use the chase, after you go below the default volume, the Chase automatically and Progressively begins bass boost. back up, the boost lessens and back to zero boost at it’s default volume. I only use 1 in/out but it has 4 line in and two identical out (front and rear are identical, from the early quad era of simply 4 speakers in a room with a fader) If you don’t like it, I’ll buy it from you. variety of uses 1. main system, select source at preamp; preamp out to chase to amp, all it’s features, remote balance: once you have it, you will not want to live without it. 2. office, I just use it for remote system power (I switched rear outlet), saves me walking around my desk, that’s it, the Luxman Integrated has it’s own remote volume, manual balance and manual input switch, I have to get up to put a tape or lp on anyway 3. garage/shop: alternate use thru the processor loop of my Yamaha receiver for remote volume and mute while working on projects down there. I can listen with or without it instantly, there is no way anyone has ever been able to detect these in any of my systems over the years, just the benefits of it's features. |
