Are You A Disciplined Audiophile?

No, no I am not....

Sorry about the comma where the period should have been, you people had me rattled before coffee. 

Listen to some Sparklehorse guys and move on, Trust me, it will sound better to you on a subsequent listen...

Disciplined audiophile is like saying moderate fanatic. Contradiction in terms!

 

 

I am a disciplined audiophile ...😊 Why ?

Because i refrained my ignorant instinctual impulse need for novelty out of my audio frustration because i learned among other  mechanical and electrical basics, acoustics basic concepts. I experimented with it one i get a low cost synergetical system ready to be improved  ...

I became creative instead of staying a passive collectors of  always costlier gear pieces and now i had great sound and no urge for any upgrade...

Then contradictions can exist in logic only when we claim that  there is only  two roads opposing each other ...

But a crossroad is not a contradiction it is a moment of choice : studying and experimenting ...

Or starting nowhere and going nowhere in a race to purchase or staying in place without moving listening our not so good stereo... . .😁

 

Disciplined audiophile is like saying moderate fanatic. Contradiction in terms!

My reaction to the question is a little broader than letting something "settle in" before I evaluate it critically. There are all sorts of people in this pursuit of hi-fidelity, from very dedicated enthusiasts, to people "in the business" to more casual users who want information on what to buy or how to address a problem, but whose interest is mainly in enjoying music with a minimum of fuss.

There is an analytical side to this and a musical enjoyment side-- for so many years, I was more devoted to the analytical side-- how good does the system sound, what records sound better (I’m still largely LP based). There were moments when everything gelled and I could enjoy what I was hearing for its own sake but I found those moments too infrequent.

When I put together my present system, starting in roughly 2006, I started focusing much more on the music, the performers, songwriters and production. I tend to like simple productions--they often sound more real to me-- and eventually moved from classical and hard rock to post-bop. Part of that may be personal taste. But I also began to appreciate that the technical know-how, the why it sounds good or bad is only a part of the process. I’m fascinated by the relationship between the music and the medium, as well as archival/preservation processes (about which I want to learn much more).

There is so much to learn--and I find the process very fulfilling- from music history and the stories behind the recordings and performers, to the manner in which the recording was mic’d, the way it was mixed and ultimately, how the thing was produced into a manufactured product. I’ve had the opportunity to do a fair number of "deep dives" into musicological history, researching archives, the US Copyright Office records, and various correspondence among participants in the production process as part of transactions buying and selling catalogs. It’s all interesting to me.

But, at the end of the day, I still want to put my feet up, listen for enjoyment, the bliss of a great performance on a good recording without my brain working on overdrive.

I guess in this sense I’m disciplined though much of what I learned about audio was not through formal education and much of what I learned about music history was either lawyerly research or study for my own interest.

In terms of letting gear settle in, I do believe that is real. I can have an immediate reaction to the swap out of a piece of gear, but I do prefer to live with the piece in question and "evaluate" it (that sounds very formal, maybe "living with it" in a given system is more apt) for some period of time using a range of material.

I guess the question of discipline as an audiophile can take various forms-- one might be to improve sonics, another might be to broaden your musical horizons.

I embrace all of it. The longer I’m on this planet, the more I want to know. I think that kind of inquisitiveness is invaluable, whether it is technical, musical, historical or other aspects of this convergence between art and science.

I bought a Transparent Powerbank 6 when I got back into hifi five years ago. It was pretty cheap brand new from the dealer. I think it may be just a glorified surge protector? 

I've heard a lot of good things about the Puritan 156.

Also, if something sounds un-musical or in some way not right, I'm not about to waste much time on break-in...it's gonna be gone.

That IS indeed the best tweak!

I live in a "twilight zone of zero self control" (from a Walter Becker song). Also, if something sounds un-musical or in some way not right, I'm not about to waste much time on break-in...it's gonna be gone.

I do only because I am lazy! I enjoy letting it play out. If it is better, it will play out in time. Of course, I am not paying thousands for accessories so that makes a difference. 

I understand that for sure...

Some collect cars one after the others...

So no, I’m not disciplined. I didn’t even bother to save the settings I had earlier when it sounded great because I was too eager to try new things.

But i came to audio to understand how to reach acoustic heaven at low price...I dont want new pieces of gear i want a good system to buy new albums like the 100 Montoliu jazz albums , a great pianist...

I learned basic acoustics to solve my problem. Once it is done why bother with new gear ?

it will cost me 15 time my actual basic cost to go better not with a marginal improved S.Q.

Then nothing is right or wrong here with you or with me ...

You listen gear change when you are bored by music , i listen music all day happy and proud of my modified system never bored by it because it is balanced acoustically ... I dont need to do acoustics experiments anymore , i loose my first room. 😊

But i must admit that if i can and younger with more money i would recreate another room with other system...To explore acoustics with different speakers type ... ( acoustics is one of my passion )

You are creative as i was...

It is that music matter more for me now than changing gear ...😊

 

But in our two situations , you with your next new gear , me with my past systems, we need to use acoustics to create great experience , not just buying gear piece ...

 

my very best to you then ,  and i say it with a bit of curiosity about your Horns speakers ... After all i am an audiophile ... ☺😁😊😉

 

Disciplined audiophile, that's an interesting idea. I won't wait if the sound is markedly unpleasant. Maybe a few days at most. If it's really nice it's easy to let it go for a few months - if my love affair with the new sound lasts that long. Or, so long as some new idea doesn't intrigue me enough to want to try it. I've messed up a lot of what I thought were great sounding setups only because I got an idea in my head and was curious to try it. 

For whatever reason I have a thirst not just to achieve good sound, but to better understand what it is that makes me think it's good. Just last night and this morning I decided to have a new look at my midrange horn, which has been difficult to interpret since it's measured response varies so much with measuring distance and angle. It's a weird beast and I don't know what's right. I tried a method I learned of yesterday called "beamforming" for measuring. You basically add the measurements together that are taken at various distances. This has the effect of suppressing the effect of early reflections, so the direct response of the horn can be more clearly seen, and adjusted as needed with crossover settings and equalization. The end result seemed to give good overall room response, but boy did that do something weird. The bass seems hard to hear, vocals seems very clear and natural but much louder than the bass, even though the bass measures as loud as ever. Before I did this experiment the system was sounding great. 

So no, I'm not disciplined. I didn't even bother to save the settings I had earlier when it sounded great because I was too eager to try new things. 

My buddy and I (who is also a forum member) had a DAC shoot-out with three DACs. Forgetting brands, all three were only about 2 weeks old.

It was crystal clear which the better of the three was.  So, I'm still not sure where discipline comes into that. 

I will say that in my experience having the entire system "warmed" up is a good thing.  This could be easily my perception, as in relaxed focused on music and  not on the sht storm that is "normal life". 

Regards,

barts

I have enough of a scientific background to know that you need to change just one variable at a time to avoid confusing results, so I adhere to that sort of scientific discipline.

From my experience, I would say that generally I have heard improvements immediately from changing some components, but that there can be additional improvement over time. One instance that has surprised me was having my Apogee Duetta II (with ribbon midrange-tweeters) speakers refurbished. The man who did the work said there would be a break-in period of a few hundred hours. But I found they improved after about a year of regular use--there was some brightness that gradually diminished, and I could test this with one particular piano note on one particular recording, as well as massed violins in some orchestral recordings. So, that’s another way in which I’m disciplined--like many audiophiles I rely on certain familiar recordings for testing components.

It is why we can all  trust reading your posts your advice about necessary or very useful gear upgrades ...

😊

I consider myself a disciplined audiophile as well.

I refrain wasting money on expensive tp, caviar, cars, ostentatious homes so I can make a greater investment in audio. I read multiple publications, listen to lots of live acoustic music and instruments to train my hearing. I do careful long term comparisons of equipment and configurations to achieve the best sound possible.

I consider myself a disciplined audiophile as well.

I refrain wasting money on expensive tp, caviar, cars, ostentatious homes so I can make a greater investment in audio. I read multiple publications, listen to lots of live acoustic music and instruments to train my hearing. I do careful long term comparisons of equipment and configurations to achieve the best sound possible.

I'm glad that NOT everyone here "Disciplined Audiophile". It makes me think that it's not the end of this world yet.

In think as

It varies from equipment to equipment, ime.

Thanks larsman 😉😊

@mahgister + 1

To be honest, I am over disciplined in my normal life. It was never a goal in my audio hobby.

Now directly from the mouth of an engineer designer who i trust more than mijostyn bashing audiophiles as all deluded by their brain 😁:

 

«First and foremost, I’m an Engineer and don’t do mojo BS. The fact this Industry has become a marketing nightmare of BS and lies not only misleads people, but attempts to fill knowledge blanks with marketing instead of fact. Add to that a billion unqualified people on the internet all with an opinion. If I can’t measure it or analyze it, it ain’t happening. Emotive response based on gut feeling is completely unreliable when attempting to address something like this subject. Often what sounds ’better’ is simply a result of you playing in a way you perceive as ’better’ so something external to you must have changed, right ?
So for this discussion, while its impossible to completely remove ones own tonal preference, the end result should be thought of as reliable unit operating within its design parameters.

However........
Yes, I can certainly vouch for the fact that amps do break in. They start off a long way from their intended operating points. Its a rather exponential process. No newly built amps sound incredible on first fire up, I’ve built a few thousand so can say this with a lot of confidence. Almost every component ’breaks in’ to some degree or other. For some components, its not so much a break in, more a settling at a particular operating point or range. Tubes certainly do initially burn off contaminants on the cathode coating and on other structures, even contaminants in the gas itself (every fired a brand new power tube and heard some crackling that goes away after several minutes or an hour or two) . It also takes a little while before their bias will remain stable. Preamp tubes as well as power tubes. Electrolytic capacitors form an oxide layer on the plates over time. There’s a period of about 30 mins to 2 hours where you can see the ripple levels change on a scope as they start to operate more efficiently. Their ESR also decreases in the same time period. The electrical and magnetic properties of transformers change too, but that’s more long term. This process continues, eventually flat lines and then starts to reverse as some component starts to reach the end of its working life, usually power tubes are the first to degrade.

The break in testing is as much to insure against premature failure as it is to ’make the amp sound and feel right’. However, there is a marked change between hours 0 and 1 and hours 1 and 5, the noticeability of the change gets less and less after longer periods of time. Noise levels do also generally decrease, but not always, they can in fact increase in some cases.
I wont even start to tweak or change anything once I’ve got an amp up and running properly, until its been hot run for a couple of hours. Its pointless as any change you make is countered by all the other parts settling in to their operating environment.

Speakers are an electro-mechanical device, so they certainly break in. Some people use variacs to attempt to speed this process up. Personally I think you are better just giving them the complete signal range by simply playing through them in the way you intend to use them and putting up with about 20 hours of stiffness.

Outside of this, the most major factor to changing tone on a day to day basis are changes in wall voltages, temperature and humidity. All these factors affect the operating points due to resistive, capacitive and inductive changes and the fact that every component has a tolerance band. I developed the autobias system to counter some of the major factors that change the tone of your rig from club to club due to bias shift caused by changing voltages.

Just a word of warning on buying ’burned in’ tubes. If by burn in they mean fired up with the filaments heated for 48 hours, that’s not really doing anything apart from creating a nice orange glow and giving them an excuse to take an extra $5 from you. To settle in a tube (for me) has to be done in its end operating environment. Granted, a few hours under load by the Supplier on a test rig will certainly help find early failures, but they will still need to ’settle in’ in your amp.

So, its all very real and physics can 100% back it up. Now heres the big caveat that separates science from Mojo.....BREAK IN DOESN’T ALWAYS GO IN A POSITIVE OR PLEASING DIRECTION. Think about it, that would be impossible. You certainly can get an amp that sounds great after two hours and by hour five has settled in to a less than ideal place and requires reworking. This is the reason I gig test every amp. Some things I may only notice when its being used in a live setting. However, the general direction of the settling in period usually leads to a more stable place and closer to the actual intended design points. Hope that helps.»

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/is-it-possible-for-electrolytic-caps-to-break-in-burn-in.1671283/

Your logic dont work mijostyn...

Of course if there is a real change when hearing break-in we could possibly then  hear a change in the materials working...Common place fact...

You initial point mocking deluded audiophiles speaking of break-in was that it is ALWAYS a brain illusion ...This is not common place fact it is a ludicrous claim which is a prejudice ...

The article i quoted above you dont read insisted on a detection of multiple changes by the human ears as not a mere illusion in ALL case which was your initial claim ...

Dont stretch the goal post to suit your lack of argument about the possible material reality of break-in in some instances and for some piece of gear for some measurable reason ...

 

@deep_333 I am not arguing at all with the measurements. Most audiophiles when they talk of breaking in what they really mean is "sounds better" The measurements changed so that means the driver now sounds better.

I kind of like having the "crazy" posts around.

Thankfully, we don't have to pay by the word, or it would get expensive, fast.

It's both.  Some pieces hardly need break in time. Meaning I can't tell it sounds better after 100 or more hours. But, I have some interconnects that sounded horrible for about 200 hours and then BOOM!  Everything changed in one day.  

I kind of like having the "crazy" posts around.

As my favorite commercial says, "The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do."

Done with crazy posts. Ignoring crazy from here on out. With me?

@deep_333 I am not arguing at all with the measurements. Most audiophiles when they talk of breaking in what they really mean is "sounds better" The measurements changed so that means the driver now sounds better. If the enclosure was designed around the original TS parameters the driver now functions worse. Subwoofer drivers, if driven correctly, lead a horrific existence. They fail more frequently than any other type of driver. Another problem is "sounds better" is a human interpretation heavily influenced by factors other than reality. IMHO, after burn in, dynamic drivers do nothing but wear out, some more quickly than others. 

Now I have to go get a tree off my driveway:-(

This discussion is in need of serious discipline if you ask me.

That being said, burn-in can be a real thing. I am currently waiting on a new Snake river AES digital cable which they just custom built for me but it will take an extra 9 days before they can ship it because they do an in house burn-in. That says plenty.

how the heck do i block on this forum?




 

I come from a relatively large family. 5 kids, 2 parents, had our grandmother with us a few years, the occasional boarder and lots of pets…

Some of these discussions remind me of The Dinner Table at Home. Lots of Opinions/Experiences.

The diversity of opinion may be difficult to accept but is necessary for a fertile environment and growth. Experiences are different. Change is the One Constant in the Universe….

BTW… I kinda agree with everyone here (at different times and subjects). Depends on the exact circumstances. It’s my stereo, my room, my rules…

Enjoy…

 

Wow - another perfectly innocuous topic pulled totally stage left because people didn't bother to read the question and instead twist it to suit their soapbox.

I do think 2 months is a reasonable time. I have way too many sources and different types of music to make a quick decision. It's not usual for me to change something out and be initially unimpressed. Then, 6 weeks later - out of the blue - a new note or nuance to a song or record I know well - or a sensation of being there that i hadn't had before - and I'm satisfied. I got to give it time.

What I am not as good at is NOT noticing a change. Once the time goes by and the component is integrated, it usually stays in. I think your calendar idea is a good one. 

I considered at one point putting together a test set list - maybe 10 songs I would run through after a change. I maybe got to #2 and lost interest.

@noromance @grislybutter @immatthewj Done with crazy posts. Ignoring crazy from here on out. With me?

No, I'm not disciplined nor in need of any....even from the leathered blonde in harness that beckons me to 'improve' on this series of spaces.....

"Break theses spaces...in....." she coos.....knowing that broken is past tense to us both.....

No limits nor budget.....just ghastly Space.....

There exists spaces that budget and hardware can't cure....

As for break-in.....leave it to the speakers, carts....perhaps the caps, Maybe the new tape heads.....electronics?  Only tubes.....need comply..... ;)

"Tube-rolling" = Phile chewing gum.....*L*

*Disclaimer*  Only teasing for the f'n fun of it..... ;)

I built my system. I built my room to the system. Now, I will try some new cables once in a while. Mostly I listen to glorious music as often as possible. Disciplined; I guess.

I feel sorry for that one guy who hates "broken in" gear...he has to replace the whole system every couple of weeks. I use a Dennis Had SEP amp for which I have a pile of tubes to swap in and out whenever I feel like it, which I find entertaining. I alternate that amp with a Pass XA-25 and both amps sound astonishingly good and have really interesting differences so, yeah, I have too much free time.

In my listening experience, component break-in is a real thing.   I sent my Krell K300i back to the factory for service and upon return it sounded like crap.   Tight, recessed midrange, no bass slam, rolled off/squeeky highs.   Yuk.   I just let it play at low volume for 3 days while we were out.   Came back and my old Krell sound was back.   Beautiful.

 

I had exactly the same experience with my NAD M33, Tubadour IIISE, Innuos Zen Mini Mk3, etc.   all have benefitted significantly from a short break-in. 
 

So, to the OP’s original question….  I try to wait and only change one thing at a time, but sometimes, I’m impatient.   It happens and I’m OK with that.

One would need to do repeated measurements with multiple same-model drivers, simultaneously, to control for QC / tolerance. Pretty straightforward.

No such thing as a more or less “disciplined” audiophile in the way OP mentions, that I can think of, since everyone is a sample size of 1 who’s more or less prone to acclimatization.

Amazing what a bit of background knowledge it science and stats can save you from having to just wonder. 😉

He uses two different drivers (of the same type) manufactured at different times with no way of controlling things like poor tolerances of changes in materials. The proper way to run this experiment is to use the same driver, measuring it new and then serially after periods of time.

@mijostyn I know all about that....If you recall on my earlier post, I asked you to measure it yourself. His video is just showing the methodology for the type of guys who’ve probably never done it before...no point in nitpicking what he did to try and come out on top on a forum thread.

Get a driver, measure it... break the same driver’s living daylights in for a couple of months... measure it again...prove it to yourself.

Why does every thread have to become so decisive?  
Who cares what I believe or how I spend your money?

Sheesh!
 

Now what were we talkin’ bout?
Discipline…. Yeah that it.

@deep_333 Thank you for the video and a great example of how you can tilt anything to your perspective. His routine for measuring TS parameters is quite valid except for the driver being held in a very loose manner. It should be locked in place on a non resonant surface not sitting on rubber bumpers. He does show you what happens when you put the driver on a very floppy surface. I clamp the drivers in a bench vise. Here is mistake number 1.  He uses two different drivers (of the same type) manufactured at different times with no way of controlling things like poor tolerances of changes in materials. The proper way to run this experiment is to use the same driver, measuring it new and then serially after periods of time. New, after a 1 hour burn in and then a year or two later. Having said that the difference he measures between the drivers is more than one could explain by loose tolerances. Remember what I said. Drivers not not break in, they break down. Subwoofer drivers do not last near as long as other drivers. I keep two spares available as I lose one every two or three years. So, what did he measure, the speaker breaking in or breaking down? Subwoofers will loosen after a short burn in period which is usually done by the manufacturer. After that it is all downhill. By break-in people are usually implying that whatever it is sounds BETTER after a period of time. (Why never worse?) What a particular system sounds like has more to do with the person's mood than the age of their equipment. 

I just lost a driver last week. It is something like 10 years old. The post mortem revealed a delaminated voice coil. Rock and Roll:-) 

Thanks very interesting and very good point ...

@mijostyn , Here’s a video on how to measure driver break-in for your viewing pleasure. Try it/experiment with it/measure it yourself at home with a couple of new drivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL4_TIRTu4

Deal done ...

We stay here together and no limits for postings ! 😊

You first. lol

I took a 3 year gap.

No. 

You first. lol

I took a 3 year gap.

 

I have made some very good buys on things 2 weeks old that the owner

gave up on. My Pass Labs INT 25 was a good example.

Shunyata developed their own system for burning in cables

because people are impatient and give up too soon.

It varies from equipment to equipment, ime. Some DACs, i could never notice a sonic change. The manufacturer could have burnt it in before they shipped some models.

Yamaha amps, for example, go through a distinct change in sound after around a 100+ hours of use. It was clearly noticeable on my former A-S2100 (which i didn’t record). I made it a point to record it on future Yamaha amps, i.e., 0hr playback and 100+ hours of playback on my former A-S3000 and current M5000 to prove that i wasn’t losing my mind. Pass amps, the break-in is a bit more subtle, not as blatantly obvious as Yamaha.

Speakers can be fairly quick to break-in depending on how you do it...

The whole "it takes months and months to burn crap is the dealer pulling a fast one for closing the return window. If he made his 10k+ cut on something, he certainly doesn’t wanna take a return.

 

On a different note,

@mijostyn , Here’s a video on how to measure driver break-in for your viewing pleasure. Try it/experiment with it/measure it yourself at home with a couple of new drivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL4_TIRTu4

First mijostyn i must compliment you...

You never intentionally with some backtought insult people since the 8 years i know you here...

I want to be clear about that...

You are as i can appear myself sometimes if not arrogant too much certain about your idea ...😊

 

Once this is said...

All new piece of gear do not break in ...

As cables or other piece...

 

but for example my amplifier takes times to reach his maximum high optimal working... The reason is in the quote above you had not read at all ...

The same is true for my AKG K340 headphone an hybrid with a crossover ...

It takes 20 minutes to work at his optimal ...

Now i bought a Morrow cable and i experimented first hand that it take a break-in ...

I do not live through this with other cheaper  cables ...

Then be less arrogant or less certain and read the quote above and let sink this in ... A pack of electronic parts new must certainly reacted differently the first day and after one year of use or after 20 years ...

if i was alone i will not dare to oppose your dogma...But i am not alone... Are you the only enlightened man on audiogon with the measuring only crowd ?

But it is a dogma your opinion cannot be proved, on the opposite the coupling of very discerning ears and electronics experimented changes according to usage ...

In your simplistic view all is stable on the gear and all is illusions in the hearing brain ..

How simple is your universe ....

mine is not so simplistic ...

😊

mijostyn

8,112 posts

04-03-2024 at 08:17pm

@mahgister is right to question my motives. I am either very arrogant, a troll, or perhaps I’m trying to bring some sanity to this hobby. I expect to piss people off because I do not try to avoid it. If that makes me arrogant to mahgister then so be it. A cable does not sound different or better after 10 hours of use, after 10 years of use or after 10 minutes of use. The same goes for electronics, tonearms and turntables. I have never heard a cartridge break in although I can think of reasons one might. Most loudspeakers do not break in, they only break down, the law of entropy. Planar magnetics and ESLs do break in because the membranes loosen. Ribbons just get worse. So, why do so many people think equipment "breaks in’? Because they perceive an improvement in sound quality. There are a zillion reasons people hear an improvement in their systems, but the main one is because they expect to hear an improvement and they get use to the sound (accomodation) validating their expectations. Many of us are quite aware of the neuropsychiatric aspects of hearing and account for it in our evaluations. Many are not aware of the tricks our brains can play on us. These perceptions seem as real as any, but they are an illusion. The problem for me it that many people create livelihoods taking advantage of this and they know darn well that they are scamming people. It appears that people like being scammed judging by the outrage at my comments. I have seen people in the audio business use the " It has not broken in yet" excuse for an unhappy customer knowing than in a few days or weeks the person will accommodate and whatever it is will sound better. Many audiophiles I know enjoy getting stoned. The music always sounds better when you are stoned, you notice details you gloss over when sober. The system is performing exactly the same , but boy does it sound better when you change your neurochemistry a little.

I am intrinsically a negative person. I tend to focus on flaws and not positive attributes. You can’t fix problems unless you identify them. My system never sounds as good as I know it can. There are always problems to chase. If this hobby were easy it would not be any fun. However. I think we should romanticize over music and not silver tonearm wiring.