Disciplined audiophile is like saying moderate fanatic. Contradiction in terms!
I am a disciplined audiophile ...😊 Why ?
Because i refrained my ignorant instinctual impulse need for novelty out of my audio frustration because i learned among other mechanical and electrical basics, acoustics basic concepts. I experimented with it one i get a low cost synergetical system ready to be improved ...
I became creative instead of staying a passive collectors of always costlier gear pieces and now i had great sound and no urge for any upgrade...
Then contradictions can exist in logic only when we claim that there is only two roads opposing each other ...
But a crossroad is not a contradiction it is a moment of choice : studying and experimenting ...
Or starting nowhere and going nowhere in a race to purchase or staying in place without moving listening our not so good stereo... . .😁
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I understand that for sure...
Some collect cars one after the others...
So no, I’m not disciplined. I didn’t even bother to save the settings I had earlier when it sounded great because I was too eager to try new things.
But i came to audio to understand how to reach acoustic heaven at low price...I dont want new pieces of gear i want a good system to buy new albums like the 100 Montoliu jazz albums , a great pianist...
I learned basic acoustics to solve my problem. Once it is done why bother with new gear ?
it will cost me 15 time my actual basic cost to go better not with a marginal improved S.Q.
Then nothing is right or wrong here with you or with me ...
You listen gear change when you are bored by music , i listen music all day happy and proud of my modified system never bored by it because it is balanced acoustically ... I dont need to do acoustics experiments anymore , i loose my first room. 😊
But i must admit that if i can and younger with more money i would recreate another room with other system...To explore acoustics with different speakers type ... ( acoustics is one of my passion )
You are creative as i was...
It is that music matter more for me now than changing gear ...😊
But in our two situations , you with your next new gear , me with my past systems, we need to use acoustics to create great experience , not just buying gear piece ...
my very best to you then , and i say it with a bit of curiosity about your Horns speakers ... After all i am an audiophile ... ☺😁😊😉
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It is why we can all trust reading your posts your advice about necessary or very useful gear upgrades ...
😊
I consider myself a disciplined audiophile as well.
I refrain wasting money on expensive tp, caviar, cars, ostentatious homes so I can make a greater investment in audio. I read multiple publications, listen to lots of live acoustic music and instruments to train my hearing. I do careful long term comparisons of equipment and configurations to achieve the best sound possible.
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In think as
It varies from equipment to equipment, ime.
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Now directly from the mouth of an engineer designer who i trust more than mijostyn bashing audiophiles as all deluded by their brain 😁:
«First and foremost, I’m an Engineer and don’t do mojo BS. The fact this Industry has become a marketing nightmare of BS and lies not only misleads people, but attempts to fill knowledge blanks with marketing instead of fact. Add to that a billion unqualified people on the internet all with an opinion. If I can’t measure it or analyze it, it ain’t happening. Emotive response based on gut feeling is completely unreliable when attempting to address something like this subject. Often what sounds ’better’ is simply a result of you playing in a way you perceive as ’better’ so something external to you must have changed, right ?
So for this discussion, while its impossible to completely remove ones own tonal preference, the end result should be thought of as reliable unit operating within its design parameters.
However........
Yes, I can certainly vouch for the fact that amps do break in. They start off a long way from their intended operating points. Its a rather exponential process. No newly built amps sound incredible on first fire up, I’ve built a few thousand so can say this with a lot of confidence. Almost every component ’breaks in’ to some degree or other. For some components, its not so much a break in, more a settling at a particular operating point or range. Tubes certainly do initially burn off contaminants on the cathode coating and on other structures, even contaminants in the gas itself (every fired a brand new power tube and heard some crackling that goes away after several minutes or an hour or two) . It also takes a little while before their bias will remain stable. Preamp tubes as well as power tubes. Electrolytic capacitors form an oxide layer on the plates over time. There’s a period of about 30 mins to 2 hours where you can see the ripple levels change on a scope as they start to operate more efficiently. Their ESR also decreases in the same time period. The electrical and magnetic properties of transformers change too, but that’s more long term. This process continues, eventually flat lines and then starts to reverse as some component starts to reach the end of its working life, usually power tubes are the first to degrade.
The break in testing is as much to insure against premature failure as it is to ’make the amp sound and feel right’. However, there is a marked change between hours 0 and 1 and hours 1 and 5, the noticeability of the change gets less and less after longer periods of time. Noise levels do also generally decrease, but not always, they can in fact increase in some cases.
I wont even start to tweak or change anything once I’ve got an amp up and running properly, until its been hot run for a couple of hours. Its pointless as any change you make is countered by all the other parts settling in to their operating environment.
Speakers are an electro-mechanical device, so they certainly break in. Some people use variacs to attempt to speed this process up. Personally I think you are better just giving them the complete signal range by simply playing through them in the way you intend to use them and putting up with about 20 hours of stiffness.
Outside of this, the most major factor to changing tone on a day to day basis are changes in wall voltages, temperature and humidity. All these factors affect the operating points due to resistive, capacitive and inductive changes and the fact that every component has a tolerance band. I developed the autobias system to counter some of the major factors that change the tone of your rig from club to club due to bias shift caused by changing voltages.
Just a word of warning on buying ’burned in’ tubes. If by burn in they mean fired up with the filaments heated for 48 hours, that’s not really doing anything apart from creating a nice orange glow and giving them an excuse to take an extra $5 from you. To settle in a tube (for me) has to be done in its end operating environment. Granted, a few hours under load by the Supplier on a test rig will certainly help find early failures, but they will still need to ’settle in’ in your amp.
So, its all very real and physics can 100% back it up. Now heres the big caveat that separates science from Mojo.....BREAK IN DOESN’T ALWAYS GO IN A POSITIVE OR PLEASING DIRECTION. Think about it, that would be impossible. You certainly can get an amp that sounds great after two hours and by hour five has settled in to a less than ideal place and requires reworking. This is the reason I gig test every amp. Some things I may only notice when its being used in a live setting. However, the general direction of the settling in period usually leads to a more stable place and closer to the actual intended design points. Hope that helps.»
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/is-it-possible-for-electrolytic-caps-to-break-in-burn-in.1671283/
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Your logic dont work mijostyn...
Of course if there is a real change when hearing break-in we could possibly then hear a change in the materials working...Common place fact...
You initial point mocking deluded audiophiles speaking of break-in was that it is ALWAYS a brain illusion ...This is not common place fact it is a ludicrous claim which is a prejudice ...
The article i quoted above you dont read insisted on a detection of multiple changes by the human ears as not a mere illusion in ALL case which was your initial claim ...
Dont stretch the goal post to suit your lack of argument about the possible material reality of break-in in some instances and for some piece of gear for some measurable reason ...
@deep_333 I am not arguing at all with the measurements. Most audiophiles when they talk of breaking in what they really mean is "sounds better" The measurements changed so that means the driver now sounds better.
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Thanks very interesting and very good point ...
@mijostyn , Here’s a video on how to measure driver break-in for your viewing pleasure. Try it/experiment with it/measure it yourself at home with a couple of new drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL4_TIRTu4
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Deal done ...
We stay here together and no limits for postings ! 😊
You first. lol
I took a 3 year gap.
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First mijostyn i must compliment you...
You never intentionally with some backtought insult people since the 8 years i know you here...
I want to be clear about that...
You are as i can appear myself sometimes if not arrogant too much certain about your idea ...😊
Once this is said...
All new piece of gear do not break in ...
As cables or other piece...
but for example my amplifier takes times to reach his maximum high optimal working... The reason is in the quote above you had not read at all ...
The same is true for my AKG K340 headphone an hybrid with a crossover ...
It takes 20 minutes to work at his optimal ...
Now i bought a Morrow cable and i experimented first hand that it take a break-in ...
I do not live through this with other cheaper cables ...
Then be less arrogant or less certain and read the quote above and let sink this in ... A pack of electronic parts new must certainly reacted differently the first day and after one year of use or after 20 years ...
if i was alone i will not dare to oppose your dogma...But i am not alone... Are you the only enlightened man on audiogon with the measuring only crowd ?
But it is a dogma your opinion cannot be proved, on the opposite the coupling of very discerning ears and electronics experimented changes according to usage ...
In your simplistic view all is stable on the gear and all is illusions in the hearing brain ..
How simple is your universe ....
mine is not so simplistic ...
😊
@mahgister is right to question my motives. I am either very arrogant, a troll, or perhaps I’m trying to bring some sanity to this hobby. I expect to piss people off because I do not try to avoid it. If that makes me arrogant to mahgister then so be it. A cable does not sound different or better after 10 hours of use, after 10 years of use or after 10 minutes of use. The same goes for electronics, tonearms and turntables. I have never heard a cartridge break in although I can think of reasons one might. Most loudspeakers do not break in, they only break down, the law of entropy. Planar magnetics and ESLs do break in because the membranes loosen. Ribbons just get worse. So, why do so many people think equipment "breaks in’? Because they perceive an improvement in sound quality. There are a zillion reasons people hear an improvement in their systems, but the main one is because they expect to hear an improvement and they get use to the sound (accomodation) validating their expectations. Many of us are quite aware of the neuropsychiatric aspects of hearing and account for it in our evaluations. Many are not aware of the tricks our brains can play on us. These perceptions seem as real as any, but they are an illusion. The problem for me it that many people create livelihoods taking advantage of this and they know darn well that they are scamming people. It appears that people like being scammed judging by the outrage at my comments. I have seen people in the audio business use the " It has not broken in yet" excuse for an unhappy customer knowing than in a few days or weeks the person will accommodate and whatever it is will sound better. Many audiophiles I know enjoy getting stoned. The music always sounds better when you are stoned, you notice details you gloss over when sober. The system is performing exactly the same , but boy does it sound better when you change your neurochemistry a little.
I am intrinsically a negative person. I tend to focus on flaws and not positive attributes. You can’t fix problems unless you identify them. My system never sounds as good as I know it can. There are always problems to chase. If this hobby were easy it would not be any fun. However. I think we should romanticize over music and not silver tonearm wiring.
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I will be Ok with your rule aiming at me if you go at the number 1000...
We will quit together ...😊
More than 10,000 posts and you should be kicked off this site.
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+1
I am as you are ...
This seems to a thread aimed at people who change a component as often as they change their underwear. I generally don’t change anything unless I’ve had it for at least two years
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Here you forgot something if i can say with my respect for your kind attitude toward me...
I explained why mijostyn is wrong when he claimed that the gear dont change but the brain is always prone to illusions , i used a quote from a designer who describe clearly what complex factors are at play ...I even gave his adress to read his interesting article ( it is not about break in but about the complex set of objective conditions to evaluate gear sound quality ) ...
Then contrary to what you said i did not oppose arrogance to arrogance without EXPLANATION ... I am not the hypocrit hilde45 complaining only about me with no arguments ever save his reputation as a world known corrector 😊... I gave to mijostyn something to chew on ... Not a mere insult as he gave to everyone with another opinion about break in without himself explaining anything ...
My deepest respect to you i just want to be clear and understood ...
It is a public forum : it means arguments matter with logical rhetoric , not mere arrogance ...
I bully no one i think and submit rational point, nobody will bully me as Hilde45 who know how i reacted and acted hypocritely to put my button "on" especially because he is too limited brain it seems to work logical answers and suffer a complex from it when reading my posts .. i need a psy to help for the diagnostic of him as he himself say once about me ...
Go to all threads in the last year you will not find any answer from this hateful pygmy to any point i submitted... Go in the thread about "audio as a mystical fact" and verify his behaviour yourself in the last days and look at my content whose he did not even read about one of the great acoustic discovery in science right now , he came with hate and go back with hate the brain stay empty closed to the news ... When i had my explanation politely with grislybutter here he was happy to come at high speed with NO ARGUMENTS only hypocrite sarcasms against me TO STIR THE POT ( it is one year since i tolerate his hipocrisy) ...Sorry i had my temper even if i hate no one i reacted to insults...
@mahgister Try not let it get personal for YOU.
For example, you quoted @mijostyn as saying "Break In" in an illusion of weak minded audiophiles. You responded by referring to his arrogance.
I believe break in occurs in some situations (mentioned in my post above).
Do you know how upset I was about Mijo’s perspective?
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You are right about some aspects of my posts ...😊
But as my mother said we remark more what upset us than the rest...
Now understood that when someone attack me with no arguments like Hilde45 i ANSWER on the spot.... I dont hate anyone here even hilde45 ...
But i am not wise as some i answer to any attacks...
Beside i just send many posts this morning with information about music and acoustics on other threads...Here i gave my opinion about the way to stay "disciplined" and i corrected a falsity claim or a simplification by mijostyn..
Then some attacked me for the sake of attacking me ... I answered....
It is annoying for all but i answered attacks it is why i dont kept any grudges against anyone ...
I apologize to you ... Sincerely ... But what can i do ? goes with my tail between legs afraid to post because narrow mind as Hilde45 will attack ?
😁😊 No ...
@mahgister I respect you and appreciate what you do. Sometimes, you do go on and on about the same thing. Reminds me of a guy with a 20 year old Toyota Corolla trying to convince everyone that they do not need a new car, or any other car, and that all the car manufacturers are out to rip them off. At a car show. 😏
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Are you not there too for the same reason as me ?
Discussions ?
Are you able to contradict any of my points ?
Go forget hate and think with your brain dear corrector known around the world .. 😊
Did i ever boast myself about my reputation as an intellectual here ?
No...
Trust me i could , i am a bit more than a corrector ...
But i like people here and i use arguments in any threads no ad hominem attack first and last or ego boasting ..
Few days ago you come insulting me again in a thread where i posted 7 articles a book and videos about an acoustic revolution in the world of science, have you understood a line ? Have you think about it ? No you are so mean because hate makes us idiot you insulted me few times and goes away ... Now you came back always with NO ARGUMENTS against any of the matter i put in front of your nose ..
Enjoy your child hateful postings harassing habits against me probably because of inferiority complex ...Consult a psy ... 😊
I never criticize someone here without giving logical, philoso-phical and acoustical and musical arguments first and last ...You acted not as me you acted with hypocrisy ..I cannot stand hypocrisy...
Another thread that has attracted that same....tired...droning sound. Is there anywhere free from that repeating siren?
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I am not angry i speak my mind ...😊
Feel free to contradict the content of what i said ...😊
I am not personal as you are it seems ... People who gives ad hominem attacks against someone dont gave arguments as i did ... You attacked me with personal grudge because you misinterpreted my "politics" but you were frank and said it frankly , unlike hilde45 who hate me because he is unable to answer to my arguments since the beginnings ...And repeat for one year here the same criticism about my english mastery ...
And only narrow mind can have "fun" with childlike content as adhominem attack by the way have fun then ...
I prefer philosophy ... 😊
@hilde45 and he’s getting angry and personal. "fun"
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To answer the OP i considered myself a disciplined audiophile because i control my urges to throw money out by studies and experiments whose conclusion make me able to judge sound quality not in itself nor related to a mere piece of gear but more in connection to a synergetical system in a dedicated room where the BALANCE between all parameters in the perceived experience is what count for me at last. Not so much the tempting hypothetical change of a piece of gear for a costlier one anymore ...😁 I listen music not upgrade ( they are not all for the best anyway )
My 1000 bucks system is satisfying for me acoustically ... Upgrading a piece of gear now will be a small change at best and a regression at worst ( i know because i tried it few months ago because i am not so wise as i wrote i am here😁 )
The real upgrade will cost me more around 10,000 to 15,000 bucks to really improve what i have on another level ...
But what i have now is completely satisfying for my needs in near listening smaller room , it is the results of my basic modifications of the room and modifications of my speakers design and modifications on my headphone...
Acoustics basic and creativity made you disciplined ...Erase these two and you become a passive consumers victim of undisciplined urges...
Audiophile life dont compare to car ownership at all by the way...
It compare to a dude learning navigation taking into account winds and tides and direction by the stars... He bought a small sailboat to go to sea by himself ... Bill Gates boast about his yacht price tag and technology as some here about their gear but what he knows about navigation really ? Nothing ... Then why some here think that someone who learn acoustics with his 1000 bucks modified system must absolutely be jealous of their 50,000 bucks gear in their living room ?
Acoustics and music are my hobby not consumerism and branded names boasting after purchase ...
😊
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Equipment does not change, only the way you hear it changes.
As usual mijostyn dogmatic claims reflect superficial understanding :
It is evident that many factors can change in a system and all S.Q. perceived changes are not listeners illusion ..
Simplification are only that simplification ... 😊
«In the following, we will use the term micro-dynamics. Micro dynamics is the ratio of two voltage (or sound pressure) values in a time interval. In some cases, it is equivalent to what audio enthusiasts call micro-dynamics. The only difference is the length of the time interval. Generally, the minimum time interval for the human ear to confirm the existence of two sound pressure intensities (or there are two sounds) from the sound is 0.1 second. The micro dynamics we are referring to here include very short time intervals and extend to a range that can be distinguished by the human ear.
We will also use the term "Sound State" in the following description. Sound State——The emotional state of the sound. Technical expression: The sound pressure value will change over time. This change relationship is expressed on the coordinate graph of the amplitude vertical axis and the time horizontal axis, which will produce a trajectory of the sound pressure value changing with time. Sound state-the shape of the track of sound pressure changes over time.»
https://www.chenaudiolab.com/id61.html
But why mijostyn deny or put under the rug this facts he could not deny ?
Because in his arrogance he seems to like to give people name :
"Break In" in an illusion of weak minded audiophiles who can not get it through their heads that human sensory systems accommodate to stimuli.
By the way i listened myself break-in process clearly with some new components...
and my brain adaptation is not the only factor ...
It seems in life real weak mind people had difficulty to keep in their head two simultaneous complementary explanations as necessary and complementary ..😊
It is better to think two times before insulting people ...
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