The issue of whether break-in is real aside for now, when you make a change in your system, such as a new component or cable, do you have the discipline to wait before making any other changes? I usually mark my calendar for a month and perhaps 2 months and try to change nothing else for that period of time so I can better assess exactly what the new thing is doing. But sometimes it’s difficult to wait. IMO, break in is a real thing, both in the component and the listener, but even if you don’t believe components and cables change after a few days, can you wait at least a month to listen to enough music to adjust your ears to what the new thing brings to the system on its own?
In addition to waiting, what other variables to you try to control to make sure you’re hearing a change only in the element of the system which has been altered?
Typically, these other variables might include time of day, mood, music selection, furniture and/or treatments, other things using electricity in the house, and more. If tubes are used in the system, this can be a challenge, as tubes which are a month or two older will introduce changes of their own. One would have to swap in identical tubes with close to the same amount of wear to control that variable. (Personally, I try to keep tubes out of the equation when I listen for changes.)
@hilde45- personally, other than the component, I just follow my normal routines of life. I don’t get obsessive over the other things. For me, I think that a month or 2 will give me enough input to decide what I want to do.
Disciplined? There are very few components that actually change for the better with age. "Break In" in an illusion of weak minded audiophiles who can not get it through their heads that human sensory systems accommodate to stimuli. Equipment does not change, only the way you hear it changes. Having said that there are a few mechanical devices like cartridges and speakers that might change initially.
Ask yourself this question. Why does equipment always improve with break-in and not worsen?
Why is the audiophile world ruled by Mark Levinson's rules, it has to cost more and look cool to sound better?
Being an audiophile means one should strive to improve the performance of one's system by any means one can afford that is practical. An evolutionary approach is necessary for most of us because finances do not allow otherwise and technology moves on. Besides, I think it is more fun this way. There was a day when you could by excellent equipment in kit form, build it yourself and save big bucks along with learning to use a soldering iron. Why did Heathkit, Eico and Dynakit go extinct? What does that say about us? Fortunately, the DIY speaker crowd is still healthy and with new digital active crossovers one can easily build a better loudspeaker than one could afford otherwise.
I don’t get obsessive over the other things. For me, I think that a month or 2 will give me enough input to decide what I want to do.
I didn't mention those variables out of any kind of obsessiveness, but because they might be factors which could interfere with the kind of observational discipline that is the main point in your post.
If they are obsessive, it can only be because they do not have a sufficiently great impact and so are negligible. Are you asserting that those factors are, in fact, negligible? I have to assume you are asserting that.
If it doesn’t sound good in 1 minute, I don’t hang around waiting for it to change. If it does sound good, or show signs of greatness, I will give it time to burn/break in. Tubes, bearings, drivers, and capacitors all improve with use.
Anything should break in by 100 to 200 hrs, approx a week. The "discipline" should only be there for 7 to 9 days.
The 2 month timeframe is the sneaky dealer suggested "discipline" to let the return windows expire. If it continues to sound like sht after 8 days, initiate rma, get your money back and "discipline" the dealer..
Equipment does not change, only the way you hear it changes.
As usual mijostyn dogmatic claims reflect superficial understanding :
It is evident that many factors can change in a system and all S.Q. perceived changes are not listeners illusion ..
Simplification are only that simplification ... 😊
«In the following, we will use the term micro-dynamics. Micro dynamics is the ratio of two voltage (or sound pressure) values in a time interval. In some cases, it is equivalent to what audio enthusiasts call micro-dynamics. The only difference is the length of the time interval. Generally, the minimum time interval for the human ear to confirm the existence of two sound pressure intensities (or there are two sounds) from the sound is 0.1 second. The micro dynamics we are referring to here include very short time intervals and extend to a range that can be distinguished by the human ear.
We will also use the term "Sound State" in the following description. Sound State——The emotional state of the sound. Technical expression: The sound pressure value will change over time. This change relationship is expressed on the coordinate graph of the amplitude vertical axis and the time horizontal axis, which will produce a trajectory of the sound pressure value changing with time. Sound state-the shape of the track of sound pressure changes over time.»
But why mijostyn deny or put under the rug this facts he could not deny ?
Because in his arrogance he seems to like to give people name :
"Break In" in an illusion of weak minded audiophiles who can not get it through their heads that human sensory systems accommodate to stimuli.
By the way i listened myself break-in process clearly with some new components...
and my brain adaptation is not the only factor ...
It seems in life real weak mind people had difficulty to keep in their head two simultaneous complementary explanations as necessary and complementary ..😊
It is better to think two times before insulting people ...
To answer the OP i considered myself a disciplined audiophile because i control my urges to throw money out by studies and experiments whose conclusion make me able to judge sound quality not in itself nor related to a mere piece of gear but more in connection to a synergetical system in a dedicated room where the BALANCE between all parameters in the perceived experience is what count for me at last. Not so much the tempting hypothetical change of a piece of gear for a costlier one anymore ...😁 I listen music not upgrade ( they are not all for the best anyway )
My 1000 bucks system is satisfying for me acoustically ... Upgrading a piece of gear now will be a small change at best and a regression at worst ( i know because i tried it few months ago because i am not so wise as i wrote i am here😁 )
The real upgrade will cost me more around 10,000 to 15,000 bucks to really improve what i have on another level ...
But what i have now is completely satisfying for my needs in near listening smaller room , it is the results of my basic modifications of the room and modifications of my speakers design and modifications on my headphone...
Acoustics basic and creativity made you disciplined ...Erase these two and you become a passive consumers victim of undisciplined urges...
Audiophile life dont compare to car ownership at all by the way...
It compare to a dude learning navigation taking into account winds and tides and direction by the stars... He bought a small sailboat to go to sea by himself ... Bill Gates boast about his yacht price tag and technology as some here about their gear but what he knows about navigation really ? Nothing ... Then why some here think that someone who learn acoustics with his 1000 bucks modified system must absolutely be jealous of their 50,000 bucks gear in their living room ?
Acoustics and music are my hobby not consumerism and branded names boasting after purchase ...
Comparison auditioning - buy 2-3 products representative of various designs and compare them at the same time - is more effective IMHO.
The only "break" that I take is to wait a week or two and come back to it with fresh ears and see if it sounds the same as before. If there is a question of break in affecting sound, I will use that time to run in the components.
can you wait at least a month to listen to enough music to adjust your ears to what the new thing brings to the system on its own?
That is something else. While hearing differences can be done quickly, changing preferences takes longer. For example, if you only listen to tubes, your first listen to class D may be negative.
Feel free to contradict the content of what i said ...😊
I am not personal as you are it seems ... People who gives ad hominem attacks against someone dont gave arguments as i did ... You attacked me with personal grudge because you misinterpreted my "politics" but you were frank and said it frankly , unlike hilde45 who hate me because he is unable to answer to my arguments since the beginnings ...And repeat for one year here the same criticism about my english mastery ...
And only narrow mind can have "fun" with childlike content as adhominem attack by the way have fun then ...
I prefer philosophy ... 😊
@hilde45and he’s getting angry and personal. "fun"
Go forget hate and think with your brain dear corrector known around the world .. 😊
Did i ever boast myself about my reputation as an intellectual here ?
No...
Trust me i could , i am a bit more than a corrector ...
But i like people here and i use arguments in any threads no ad hominem attack first and last or ego boasting ..
Few days ago you come insulting me again in a thread where i posted 7 articles a book and videos about an acoustic revolution in the world of science, have you understood a line ? Have you think about it ? No you are so mean because hate makes us idiot you insulted me few times and goes away ... Now you came back always with NO ARGUMENTS against any of the matter i put in front of your nose ..
Enjoy your child hateful postings harassing habits against me probably because of inferiority complex ...Consult a psy ... 😊
I never criticize someone here without giving logical, philoso-phical and acoustical and musical arguments first and last ...You acted not as me you acted with hypocrisy ..I cannot stand hypocrisy...
Another thread that has attracted that same....tired...droning sound. Is there anywhere free from that repeating siren?
@mahgister I respect you and appreciate what you do. Sometimes, you do go on and on about the same thing. Reminds me of a guy with a 20 year old Toyota Corolla trying to convince everyone that they do not need a new car, or any other car, and that all the car manufacturers are out to rip them off. At a car show. 😏
But as my mother said we remark more what upset us than the rest...
Now understood that when someone attack me with no arguments like Hilde45 i ANSWER on the spot.... I dont hate anyone here even hilde45 ...
But i am not wise as some i answer to any attacks...
Beside i just send many posts this morning with information about music and acoustics on other threads...Here i gave my opinion about the way to stay "disciplined" and i corrected a falsity claim or a simplification by mijostyn..
Then some attacked me for the sake of attacking me ... I answered....
It is annoying for all but i answered attacks it is why i dont kept any grudges against anyone ...
I apologize to you ... Sincerely ... But what can i do ? goes with my tail between legs afraid to post because narrow mind as Hilde45 will attack ?
😁😊 No ...
@mahgister I respect you and appreciate what you do. Sometimes, you do go on and on about the same thing. Reminds me of a guy with a 20 year old Toyota Corolla trying to convince everyone that they do not need a new car, or any other car, and that all the car manufacturers are out to rip them off. At a car show. 😏
Here you forgot something if i can say with my respect for your kind attitude toward me...
I explained why mijostyn is wrong when he claimed that the gear dont change but the brain is always prone to illusions , i used a quote from a designer who describe clearly what complex factors are at play ...I even gave his adress to read his interesting article ( it is not about break in but about the complex set of objective conditions to evaluate gear sound quality ) ...
Then contrary to what you said i did not oppose arrogance to arrogance without EXPLANATION ... I am not the hypocrit hilde45 complaining only about me with no arguments ever save his reputation as a world known corrector 😊... I gave to mijostyn something to chew on ... Not a mere insult as he gave to everyone with another opinion about break in without himself explaining anything ...
My deepest respect to you i just want to be clear and understood ...
It is a public forum : it means arguments matter with logical rhetoric , not mere arrogance ...
I bully no one i think and submit rational point, nobody will bully me as Hilde45 who know how i reacted and acted hypocritely to put my button "on" especially because he is too limited brain it seems to work logical answers and suffer a complex from it when reading my posts .. i need a psy to help for the diagnostic of him as he himself say once about me ...
Go to all threads in the last year you will not find any answer from this hateful pygmy to any point i submitted... Go in the thread about "audio as a mystical fact" and verify his behaviour yourself in the last days and look at my content whose he did not even read about one of the great acoustic discovery in science right now , he came with hate and go back with hate the brain stay empty closed to the news ... When i had my explanation politely with grislybutter here he was happy to come at high speed with NO ARGUMENTS only hypocrite sarcasms against me TO STIR THE POT ( it is one year since i tolerate his hipocrisy) ...Sorry i had my temper even if i hate no one i reacted to insults...
This seems to a thread aimed at people who change a component as often as they change their underwear. I generally don’t change anything unless I’ve had it for at least two years
This seems to a thread aimed at people who change a component as often as they change their underwear. I generally don’t change anything unless I’ve had it for at least two years
"What an ignorant"! Thought the Roman officer speaking to Archimedes distracted by geometry and killing him because he was not afraid and not "there" where he thought any intelligent person must be in front of a Roman officer...😊
Such goes the world...
Stop calling people ignorant and bought a mirror ...
By the way i am not Archimedes and no one here is, but it is a parable about who is ignorant and who is not .... 😊
Someone new on a forum who dare to call everyone or most of them ignorants is certainly not a light illuminating the world ...
But you are welcome indeed ... You are not hypocrites and for that i welcome you without reservation ...
I like people who speak their mind... Especially if they could think with arguments...
Welcome,
Enlighten us with your knowledge ...
We cannot wait ... 😊 We need it for sure as any good forum ...
@mahgisteris right to question my motives. I am either very arrogant, a troll, or perhaps I'm trying to bring some sanity to this hobby. I expect to piss people off because I do not try to avoid it. If that makes me arrogant to mahgister then so be it. A cable does not sound different or better after 10 hours of use, after 10 years of use or after 10 minutes of use. The same goes for electronics, tonearms and turntables. I have never heard a cartridge break in although I can think of reasons one might. Most loudspeakers do not break in, they only break down, the law of entropy. Planar magnetics and ESLs do break in because the membranes loosen. Ribbons just get worse. So, why do so many people think equipment "breaks in'? Because they perceive an improvement in sound quality. There are a zillion reasons people hear an improvement in their systems, but the main one is because they expect to hear an improvement and they get use to the sound (accomodation) validating their expectations. Many of us are quite aware of the neuropsychiatric aspects of hearing and account for it in our evaluations. Many are not aware of the tricks our brains can play on us. These perceptions seem as real as any, but they are an illusion. The problem for me it that many people create livelihoods taking advantage of this and they know darn well that they are scamming people. It appears that people like being scammed judging by the outrage at my comments. I have seen people in the audio business use the " It has not broken in yet" excuse for an unhappy customer knowing than in a few days or weeks the person will accommodate and whatever it is will sound better. Many audiophiles I know enjoy getting stoned. The music always sounds better when you are stoned, you notice details you gloss over when sober. The system is performing exactly the same , but boy does it sound better when you change your neurochemistry a little.
I am intrinsically a negative person. I tend to focus on flaws and not positive attributes. You can't fix problems unless you identify them. My system never sounds as good as I know it can. There are always problems to chase. If this hobby were easy it would not be any fun. However. I think we should romanticize over music and not silver tonearm wiring.
You never intentionally with some backtought insult people since the 8 years i know you here...
I want to be clear about that...
You are as i can appear myself sometimes if not arrogant too much certain about your idea ...😊
Once this is said...
All new piece of gear do not break in ...
As cables or other piece...
but for example my amplifier takes times to reach his maximum high optimal working... The reason is in the quote above you had not read at all ...
The same is true for my AKG K340 headphone an hybrid with a crossover ...
It takes 20 minutes to work at his optimal ...
Now i bought a Morrow cable and i experimented first hand that it take a break-in ...
I do not live through this with other cheaper cables ...
Then be less arrogant or less certain and read the quote above and let sink this in ... A pack of electronic parts new must certainly reacted differently the first day and after one year of use or after 20 years ...
if i was alone i will not dare to oppose your dogma...But i am not alone... Are you the only enlightened man on audiogon with the measuring only crowd ?
But it is a dogma your opinion cannot be proved, on the opposite the coupling of very discerning ears and electronics experimented changes according to usage ...
In your simplistic view all is stable on the gear and all is illusions in the hearing brain ..
@mahgisteris right to question my motives. I am either very arrogant, a troll, or perhaps I’m trying to bring some sanity to this hobby. I expect to piss people off because I do not try to avoid it. If that makes me arrogant to mahgister then so be it. A cable does not sound different or better after 10 hours of use, after 10 years of use or after 10 minutes of use. The same goes for electronics, tonearms and turntables. I have never heard a cartridge break in although I can think of reasons one might. Most loudspeakers do not break in, they only break down, the law of entropy. Planar magnetics and ESLs do break in because the membranes loosen. Ribbons just get worse. So, why do so many people think equipment "breaks in’? Because they perceive an improvement in sound quality. There are a zillion reasons people hear an improvement in their systems, but the main one is because they expect to hear an improvement and they get use to the sound (accomodation) validating their expectations. Many of us are quite aware of the neuropsychiatric aspects of hearing and account for it in our evaluations. Many are not aware of the tricks our brains can play on us. These perceptions seem as real as any, but they are an illusion. The problem for me it that many people create livelihoods taking advantage of this and they know darn well that they are scamming people. It appears that people like being scammed judging by the outrage at my comments. I have seen people in the audio business use the " It has not broken in yet" excuse for an unhappy customer knowing than in a few days or weeks the person will accommodate and whatever it is will sound better. Many audiophiles I know enjoy getting stoned. The music always sounds better when you are stoned, you notice details you gloss over when sober. The system is performing exactly the same , but boy does it sound better when you change your neurochemistry a little.
I am intrinsically a negative person. I tend to focus on flaws and not positive attributes. You can’t fix problems unless you identify them. My system never sounds as good as I know it can. There are always problems to chase. If this hobby were easy it would not be any fun. However. I think we should romanticize over music and not silver tonearm wiring.
I have made some very good buys on things 2 weeks old that the owner
gave up on. My Pass Labs INT 25 was a good example.
Shunyata developed their own system for burning in cables
because people are impatient and give up too soon.
It varies from equipment to equipment, ime. Some DACs, i could never notice a sonic change. The manufacturer could have burnt it in before they shipped some models.
Yamaha amps, for example, go through a distinct change in sound after around a 100+ hours of use. It was clearly noticeable on my former A-S2100 (which i didn’t record). I made it a point to record it on future Yamaha amps, i.e., 0hr playback and 100+ hours of playback on my former A-S3000 and current M5000 to prove that i wasn’t losing my mind. Pass amps, the break-in is a bit more subtle, not as blatantly obvious as Yamaha.
Speakers can be fairly quick to break-in depending on how you do it...
The whole "it takes months and months to burn crap is the dealer pulling a fast one for closing the return window. If he made his 10k+ cut on something, he certainly doesn’t wanna take a return.
On a different note,
@mijostyn, Here’s a video on how to measure driver break-in for your viewing pleasure. Try it/experiment with it/measure it yourself at home with a couple of new drivers.
@mijostyn, Here’s a video on how to measure driver break-in for your viewing pleasure. Try it/experiment with it/measure it yourself at home with a couple of new drivers.
@deep_333Thank you for the video and a great example of how you can tilt anything to your perspective. His routine for measuring TS parameters is quite valid except for the driver being held in a very loose manner. It should be locked in place on a non resonant surface not sitting on rubber bumpers. He does show you what happens when you put the driver on a very floppy surface. I clamp the drivers in a bench vise. Here is mistake number 1. He uses two different drivers (of the same type) manufactured at different times with no way of controlling things like poor tolerances of changes in materials. The proper way to run this experiment is to use the same driver, measuring it new and then serially after periods of time. New, after a 1 hour burn in and then a year or two later. Having said that the difference he measures between the drivers is more than one could explain by loose tolerances. Remember what I said. Drivers not not break in, they break down. Subwoofer drivers do not last near as long as other drivers. I keep two spares available as I lose one every two or three years. So, what did he measure, the speaker breaking in or breaking down? Subwoofers will loosen after a short burn in period which is usually done by the manufacturer. After that it is all downhill. By break-in people are usually implying that whatever it is sounds BETTER after a period of time. (Why never worse?) What a particular system sounds like has more to do with the person's mood than the age of their equipment.
I just lost a driver last week. It is something like 10 years old. The post mortem revealed a delaminated voice coil. Rock and Roll:-)
He uses two different drivers (of the same type) manufactured at different times with no way of controlling things like poor tolerances of changes in materials. The proper way to run this experiment is to use the same driver, measuring it new and then serially after periods of time.
@mijostynI know all about that....If you recall on my earlier post, I asked you tomeasure it yourself. His video is just showing the methodology for the type of guys who’ve probably never done it before...no point in nitpicking what he did to try and come out on top on a forum thread.
Get a driver, measure it... break the same driver’s living daylights in for a couple of months... measure it again...prove it to yourself.
One would need to do repeated measurements with multiple same-model drivers, simultaneously, to control for QC / tolerance. Pretty straightforward.
No such thing as a more or less “disciplined” audiophile in the way OP mentions, that I can think of, since everyone is a sample size of 1 who’s more or less prone to acclimatization.
Amazing what a bit of background knowledge it science and stats can save you from having to just wonder. 😉
In my listening experience, component break-in is a real thing. I sent my Krell K300i back to the factory for service and upon return it sounded like crap. Tight, recessed midrange, no bass slam, rolled off/squeeky highs. Yuk. I just let it play at low volume for 3 days while we were out. Came back and my old Krell sound was back. Beautiful.
I had exactly the same experience with my NAD M33, Tubadour IIISE, Innuos Zen Mini Mk3, etc. all have benefitted significantly from a short break-in.
So, to the OP’s original question…. I try to wait and only change one thing at a time, but sometimes, I’m impatient. It happens and I’m OK with that.
I feel sorry for that one guy who hates "broken in" gear...he has to replace the whole system every couple of weeks. I use a Dennis Had SEP amp for which I have a pile of tubes to swap in and out whenever I feel like it, which I find entertaining. I alternate that amp with a Pass XA-25 and both amps sound astonishingly good and have really interesting differences so, yeah, I have too much free time.
I built my system. I built my room to the system. Now, I will try some new cables once in a while. Mostly I listen to glorious music as often as possible. Disciplined; I guess.
Wow - another perfectly innocuous topic pulled totally stage left because people didn't bother to read the question and instead twist it to suit their soapbox.
I do think 2 months is a reasonable time. I have way too many sources and different types of music to make a quick decision. It's not usual for me to change something out and be initially unimpressed. Then, 6 weeks later - out of the blue - a new note or nuance to a song or record I know well - or a sensation of being there that i hadn't had before - and I'm satisfied. I got to give it time.
What I am not as good at is NOT noticing a change. Once the time goes by and the component is integrated, it usually stays in. I think your calendar idea is a good one.
I considered at one point putting together a test set list - maybe 10 songs I would run through after a change. I maybe got to #2 and lost interest.
I come from a relatively large family. 5 kids, 2 parents, had our grandmother with us a few years, the occasional boarder and lots of pets…
Some of these discussions remind me of The Dinner Table at Home. Lots of Opinions/Experiences.
The diversity of opinion may be difficult to accept but is necessary for a fertile environment and growth. Experiences are different. Change is the One Constant in the Universe….
BTW… I kinda agree with everyone here (at different times and subjects). Depends on the exact circumstances. It’s my stereo, my room, my rules…
This discussion is in need of serious discipline if you ask me.
That being said, burn-in can be a real thing. I am currently waiting on a new Snake river AES digital cable which they just custom built for me but it will take an extra 9 days before they can ship it because they do an in house burn-in. That says plenty.
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